Eeveegirl1206's page

Erastil and Jaidi are an extremely fecund couple and have produced hundreds of children. While Cernunnos and Halcamora are most well known, the rest often play a role in the folk worship, stories and mythology of those who dwell in the countryside.

Far more often than their parents, they on occasion take part in local festivals or aid villagers in ill fortunate.Others play tricks or set challenges.

These children of Erastil and Jaidi include Jack Barleycorn, Agharad the Lady of Flowers, Hollie Honeymead, Sion the Fox and the Herdlord.

They are both fertility gods and fertility gods in pathfinder pump out loads of offspring see Lamushtu

Arcadia isn’t just South America and Mesoamerica it also includes what is currently the USA and Canada.

AKA tribes like the Ojibwe, Cree, Zuni, Huron, Inuit.

Warhammer had mesoamerican themed lizardpeople but the part of their world that is anoglous to USA/Canada was uninhabited until the dark elves went to Canada.

Will they have horses in Arcadia? Considering raccoons and skunks exist in the Inner Sea.

I’d love to have a god based on or even just straight up have Tezcatlipoca in Golarion.

Despite Tezcatlipoca‘a profilo seeming like it would be evil he was one of the most popular gods in Nahua and a Patreon of enslaved persons

Eeveegirl1206 wrote:

To get back on track it’s worth noting that the VELSTRAC shared Hell with the Asuras and Gigases.

Geryon used to be a Asura Rana before switching sides to Asmodeus when his fallen angels invaded.

I always found the idea of a Divine Mistake that hates the gods betraying their kin to a god to be kind of suspicious. Especially that most of the Velstrac, Asura, and Gigases don’t seem to be very mad at being forced out of their homes and sent to other realms or essentially Reservations in Hell.

You think that would leave some resentment. Unless it’s Greyon’s plan and when Asmodeus is weakened Greyon will vomit up the 812 Tyrants and rush Asmodeus.

Considering the Velstrac and Asura use to share Hell. It’s weird that no source commented on the interactions between them.

. . . I like that. A lot. I might put a cult devoted to Geryon in my upcoming "But Oh, Oh, Those Nidalese Nights" campaign that believes exactly that!

That might make sense as a Greyon cult. Especially in Nidal.

Believing he is essentially biding his time to kill Asmodeus and the other colonizing devils makes sense in a land that is a colony to Chelrix.

Especially since Greyon was kin to Velstracs before the devils.

They’d believe that the vassalging of Nidal is a trap and they will spring into action.

Ok it kind of is. Considering that it lead to the domino effect explaining the more boundary pushing content of early Pathfinder.

But moving on.

I love the Demoguges and would love to see more of them.

It’s so funny that Inkariax is basically a Otuku setting with his anime figures and simping for Dolarosa.

It’s so funny his whole thing is “notice me senpei.”

I just imagine her fellow Night Queens dunking on him during their meetings.

Whenever Sugroz comes up I want someone to say moisturize me like the reference to doctor who.

Virellius wrote:

I have ALWAYS wondered about Zon-Kuthon and the Velstracs; their aesthetics and areas of focus are SO similar but they seem to have no shared origination. Did ZK base his style on what he found in the Netherworld? Did the Velstracs help shape his appearance? Is it possible Dou-bral become ZK, ended up in Hell and spawned the Velstracs, and then went to the Netherworld before Asmodeus ever rebelled and entered Hell?

I invented Zon-Kuthon in the late 90s, inspired by Clive Barker's Hellraiser. Some more notes:

** spoiler omitted **

TL;DR...

The Satanic Panic was so f#+@ing stupid.

Especially if you know anything about theology.

Satan isn’t this enemy of G-D out to ruin the world. Satan is a title meaning the accuser. Whose divine role is as a prosecuting attorney.

You were getting scared at Miles Edgeworth from the AA series.

Why did the satanic panic happen? Why did so many people believe in such absurd stories from gaslighting children to make them believe that abuse happened

Virellius wrote:

Rakshasa and Asura are in real myth quite similar or intertwined in some ways, to my limited understanding. I admit I know next to nothing about them. I DO know the backwards handed cats are from an episode of Kolchak: the Night Stalker.

Asura and Velstracts BOTH being formerly from Hell makes me wonder if a Planer Adventures 2e book would be worth making. LOTS of interesting stuff out there; they could even save room and not touch on the elemental planes since RoE did that very well.

Maybe then we could also get some more lore on Peri and Garuda, the other 'oh right you exist' outsiders.

A book covering the different planes would be cool, espeically with how things are evolving away from DnD and its particular designs. To tie this back to the vesltrecs, I think such a thing would be great for an exploration of the Netherworld. We also have a couple of ancestries that either come from the Netherworld or are tied there like the Kayals or the Wayalangs, and some nephalim.

I’d love to get a whole book on the Shadow Realm and Nidal.

Will the Forsaken return? They were given full write ups in Divine Mysteries.

The Demagogues are really interesting I’d like to know more about their relations to other Fiends.

A old ass Kobold Quarterly article mentions that they sent emissaries to Barbtros.

But other then that their interactions to other Demigods and gods are pretty bare.

I presume they consider Zon-Kuthon a kindred spirit and fellow artist of pain.

And he too likes them. Other then that seems they are pretty keep to themselves.

I presume they are aquintices with the Asura Ranas.

Eeveegirl1206 wrote:

The Velstracs are lucky they received an expanded write up in City out of Time.

Compare that to the Asura Rana or Rakesha Immortals which have nothing on them.

I'll be honest, I was actually really surprised they didn't get anything in Impossible Lands. It seemed like the perfect place to touch on the new/updated lore for authentic Rakshasa, and I know even less about the Asura.

Yes it seemed like it would be the perfect place to update the lore on the Rakesha. and Asura.

Forgive me but aren’t the Rakasha like evil fae/demons in Hindu culture?

Not the weird ass cat people in DND.

The Asura are made from divine mistakes made flesh and want to unmake all which the Divine has wrought on the cosmos.
Which is basically everything expect for maybe the Aboloths.

To get back on track it’s worth noting that the VELSTRAC shared Hell with the Asuras and Gigases.

Geryon used to be a Asura Rana before switching sides to Asmodeus when his fallen angels invaded.

I always found the idea of a Divine Mistake that hates the gods betraying their kin to a god to be kind of suspicious. Especially that most of the Velstrac, Asura, and Gigases don’t seem to be very mad at being forced out of their homes and sent to other realms or essentially Reservations in Hell.

You think that would leave some resentment. Unless it’s Greyon’s plan and when Asmodeus is weakened Greyon will vomit up the 812 Tyrants and rush Asmodeus.

Considering the Velstrac and Asura use to share Hell. It’s weird that no source commented on the interactions between them.

The Velstracs are lucky they received an expanded write up in City out of Time.

Compare that to the Asura Rana or Rakesha Immortals which have nothing on them.

Kevin Mack wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

(Talked about slavery and drow...)

EDIT: Spoilering to prevent wall of text syndrome...

** spoiler omitted **...

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

No shame Jacob modern day IP law is a confusing mess made by big corpos to help them and no one else. Like most laws actually.

I f#+@ing despise modern IP law.

The very concept of creators getting compensation for their work isn’t bad but modern IP law has proven itself terrible at its stated goal

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

Eeveegirl1206 wrote:

Not to mention he does hate Andoren and Cheliax was founded by Adoren.

What? No it wasn't. Aroden was long since a god by the time the Taldan Armies of Exploration established Cheliax as a Taldan province. Independent Cheliax was founded by Aspex the Even-Tongued, not by Aroden. Cheliax was devoutly and proudly Arodenite, but that's hardly the same as being founded by Aroden. Aroden founded Absalom.

True but Cheliax is were Aroden was supposed to come back in all his glory ;-)

Him wanting to ruin Cheliax just to spite his rival is so him.

Intelligent undead have an issue with extreme pettiness look at Walkena and Geb.

Eeveegirl1206 wrote:

Religious rites involving human sacrifice kind of nessitate a disposable population to draw from to get sacrifices from.

Unlike in real life where typically human sacrificial rituals were performed sparingly. Cults devoted to more malign deities practice the ritual far more often then real cultures that had it as an element.

Mostly because it makes them better villains.

In cultures that practiced it they were drawn from captured enemy soldiers who would have been enslaved in most other cultures or slaves.

Of course sometimes their own children were taken as sacrifices like in Carthage.

On a side note I always would have found it interesting that a god of some kind required human or elven or dwarves sacrifices only to then lavish their souls in the afterlife.

Mesoamerican conceptions of sacrificial rituals had the souls of the sacrificed be taken to some of the better afterlives.

It’s worth noting that more civilized cultures waged their fingers at human sacrifice while essentially performing it.

Like how the Romans used it to smear their enemies only to also commit human sacrifice.

There’s an uncomfortable element is that so many “evil cults” in fantasy are based on smear campaigns of minority faiths.

Of course lot all of them. I heard about a GM making Zon-Kuthon worship resemble a messed up version of Catholicism.

Human sacrifice, like most religious practices, has deeply varied meanings in a wide variety of cultural contexts. One of my big bugaboos in fantasy stories in general is that human sacrifice is almost treated as having an alignment of "Always evil" when I just don't think that is so ~ when viewed from within that culture and when taken seriously as a religion.

For positioning's sake ~ I speak as a member of at least two traditions/religions in which human sacrifice is central (one of which being Catholicism) and have learned a lot from thinking about its place in the functioning of the cosmos. No, I do not practice it. Duh....

Remember that Catholics eat the literal (according to theology) flesh and blood of their human sacrifice every week.

Human sacrifice and cannibalism is something that is used as accusation accurate or not of other cultures while at the same time commuting acts that are basically or just human sacrifice or cannibalism.

Like when Europeans were accusing other people of being cannibals. (Often with local tribes/nations/states also accusing their traditional rivals of it so the Europeans lended them their guans) Europeans where grinding up and snorting Mummies.

Or how the Romans acused enemy groups like the Germanic Tribes or Carthage of human sacrifice while themselves having sacrificial rites.

Also speaking personally I greatly prefer cheliax without slavery but instead with all these contracts that bind a person. That feels far more like a culture that has been influnced by Hell then just slavery. Both are oppressive, and sure the contracts that Thrune and the other power players in Cheliax write up are filled with so much legalese and fine print that they heavily favor the power players. But in a land where Ravenoul was only able to escape thanks to a legal loophole in their annexation contract at the end of the civil war, this also fits the lore better.

More over there are more options. Now one can play a lawyer character and with some good lawyering rescue people from their contracts. Have players be bound by the contracts to do stuff for them without it feeling like an end.

Katapesh banning slavery is explictly mentioned as a shock, now the pactmasters are strange alien creatures, but a big reason is due to nomadic revolts and conflicts. Conflicts that are still ongoing and are not resolved and probably will be part of the upcoming battle cry.

Abasolom's decision to end slavery is detailed above, and that decimated others.

Vidiran had a revolution and got rid of it.

Oddly Nidal, the nation that got this thread started didn't really practice slavery all that much in 1e from their own book. Most of that was tied to the Darklands stuff and with that retcon I doubt slavery persits. All other forms of oppression, pain, and suffering? sure but slavery wasn't really part of it beyond the whole nation in effect being slaves to Zon-Kuthon.

One of the groups that did get rid of it and I am not sure why are the Orcs of belzkan.

Slavery was super important in Nidal. The novels showcase the Shadow callers purchasing slaves for torture purposes.

Zon-Kuthon’s 1E obedience was this

Obedience Persuade a creature to allow you to inflict a small
amount of pain on it. This can be as subtle as thin needles
under the skin or as overt as a lashing with a whip—
whatever the subject agrees to. If you can legally procure
an individual, such as through legalized slavery, you may
use a purchased subject instead. If no suitable individuals
can be located, coil a spiked chain into a nest and kneel on
it, letting your weight sink your knees into the spikes. Whip
your own back while chanting praises to Zon-Kuthon. Gain a
+2 sacred bonus on saving throws against spells that deal hit
point damage.

Slavery was less important to the economy of Nidal then it was to its religious practices. Given the whole evil BDSM lead by a Cenobite thing.

Religious rites involving human sacrifice kind of nessitate a disposable population to draw from to get sacrifices from.

Unlike in real life where typically human sacrificial rituals were performed sparingly. Cults devoted to more malign deities practice the ritual far more often then real cultures that had it as an element.

Mostly because it makes them better villains.

In cultures that practiced it they were drawn from captured enemy soldiers who would have been enslaved in most other cultures or slaves.

Of course sometimes their own children were taken as sacrifices like in Carthage.

On a side note I always would have found it interesting that a god of some kind required human or elven or dwarves sacrifices only to then lavish their souls in the afterlife.

Mesoamerican conceptions of sacrificial rituals had the souls of the sacrificed be taken to some of the better afterlives.

It’s worth noting that more civilized cultures waged their fingers at human sacrifice while essentially performing it.

Like how the Romans used it to smear their enemies only to also commit human sacrifice.

There’s an uncomfortable element is that so many “evil cults” in fantasy are based on smear campaigns of minority faiths.

Of course lot all of them. I heard about a GM making Zon-Kuthon worship resemble a messed up version of Catholicism.

I reminded myself today that the Tower of Slant Shadows had a strange syncretic religion pop up around it a few Golarion-decades ago - cultists of Desna and of Rovagug who originally named together simply to protect the Star Tower from a group of demodands (shaggy and tarry, iirc). One interesting dimension which probably has a slight (but prolly no more than) influence on their religious understanding is that both are opposed to Zonny K but are now defending his works or one of them, at least... So there is a TINY chance that he might end up being worshiped by the cult as well? Mostly, I imagine it would just be Desna and Rovagug.

Complicating the question is that James Jacobs has said that they wouldn't be doing anything with demodands in 2e XD

Wondering if anyone has any ideas about what that syncretism might look like and how it has evolved in the time gap between 1e and 2e (both from a world building POV and mechanically as a 2e pantheon)?

That seems like something Ghulahunder would set up to spite his rival.

Asmodeus is like the god of slavery.

It’s like a place dedicated to the worship of Molag Bal from Elder Scrolls the King of Rape and God of slavery banning slavery.

vyshan wrote:

I do wonder what sort of war crimes, evil actions, and villianous behavior Andoran will do if we are going the ww1 route where all sides were bastards. All the powers were Imperialist bastards who did plenty of war crimes and horrible stuff.

Cheliax is obvious but Andoran will need to do some evil, maybe they fireball innocent chelixan villages going "you are all devil worshipers so die!"

Now if this was Geb v Nex then that would be fine, both Nex and Geb are unethical wizards are allowed to do what they please.

First, I am pretty sure Andoran will be the aggressor, which never looks good.

Second, I totally expect Andoran to quickly be on the losing side and have Tar-Baphon propose the help of his undead armies against the hellish legions of Cheliax.

Especially if Molthune sides with Cheliax.

Doesn’t Tar-Baphon just hate the living and is also one of the biggest egomaniacs on Golerion?

Would he ever deign to help someone out?

I could see it as an act of sadism. He desires to see once good people compromise their morals and having a nation who thinks themselves as brave freedom fighters have to ally with a evil Tyrant Lich and his undead hordes would please him.

Not to mention he does hate Andoren and Cheliax was founded by Adoren.

Virellius wrote:

I do wonder sometimes if perhaps a good idea could be to simply not touch on the former things while keeping the character. Like Socothbenoth shifting to take his sisters former portfolio and just not talking about his old predilections (which, to be fair, is not something most people are thinking of considering a lot of people these days know him from Owlcat's WOTR game and not from old ttrpg lore, I'd wager).

I completely agree about the shift away from the edginess being good overall. It makes the game more accessible and comfortable for a wider majority, and we're already fighting tooth and nail for every bit of market share we can get here in the Pathfinder trenches.

In some cases we keep characters and refocus them. In others we don't. If we DO some day do something more with Socothbenoht, we'll do that; refocus him in some way away from the focus on sexual violence to something new that won't make him less evil. I'm not sure right now how best to do that, and haven't put any thought into it because a) he's not a part of any stories the Narrative team is working on for the next few years and b) because I'm no longer the only (or even the primary) lore guy for Pathfinder.

I could see the Silken Sin being reframed as broader selfish hedonism with no regard to other people.

Like killing twenty people because you like the way blood drains in the sunlight or cannibalism and not specifically sexual violence.

Eeveegirl1206 wrote:

Is that why Nethys write up in Divine Mysteries doesn’t lean into the older lore about his “madness” through he clearly does see the world through a different lens then most people.

Yup; this is an excellent example of us keeping an established element but treating it more responsibly.

From the write up it makes it seem like he has some sort of dissociative disorder is that meant to be correct?

Also how do you think about handling Lamushutu the goddess associated with birth defects, and miscarriages. Whose early lore made many references to forced breeding.

AKA what she wanted to do to Shelryn and Szurial.

Oh I hope Szurial and Moloch get to be involved as prominent villains egging on Golerion to war

Spoilering a wall of text as I pontificate about how the world has changed in the 20+ years Paizo has been publishing RPG content (a span of time that, this year, exceeds that in which TSR did the same). And please note, the following is MY take, not an "official" take from Paizo.

** spoiler omitted **...

Is that why Nethys write up in Divine Mysteries doesn’t lean into the older lore about his “madness” through he clearly does see the world through a different lens then most people.

Insanity is such a subjective topic anyway that I understand .

Creators getting loosening content restriction leading them to get all edgelordy is a very common situation in the creative arts.

Some creatives get carried away with more taboo content once they can and not how to handle such content in meaningful ways.

Eeveegirl1206 wrote:

Isn’t Rauhdoum’s anti deity stance fanned on by beings like Aboloths and Asura who use it as one of there base of operations?

They love the idea of mortals who reject gods.

There is an internal tension in Rahadoum between a faction of social conservatives who want to expunge anything related to Gods or Religion from their society and a faction of progressives who want to take the energy that would otherwise be dedicated to religion and redirect it towards education, science, engineering projects, etc. for the benefit of everybody. After all, for the money and effort we would have spent to build a temple we could instead build a hospital or a school. Rahadoum exists in a superposition of "extremely enlightened" and "extremely closed-minded" which is probably not indefinitely sustainable.

They're going to eventually have to tackle this internal division in Rahadoum, but there's no actual hurry.

There’s definitely something that can be said about a certain type of online Reddit atheists versus normal well adjusted atheists.

It makes sense for the severe anti-deity side to be egged on by entities like the Aboloths and Asura.

Socothbenhoth being, so far, not a discussion topic in 2nd edition has less to do with "casual hook ups" than it does with him being a demon lord who's significantly associated with sexual violence, which is a topic we explored with villians now and then in 1st edition, but is a topic we are not interested in exploring in 2nd edition (and already had started to tone back on in late 1st edition and utilized content warnings more responsibly).

The velstrac demagogues not being a big topic in 2nd edition has more to do with space issues. Divine Mysteries is a big book, but it's not big enough for EVERYTHING, and so Luis and the team had to make decisions about who to include and who not to include. They skewed toward inclusion of content more appropriate for player characters overall, rather than stuff more appropriate for GMs, because player content sells better and is more useful to more people.

AKA At some point we'll get more into the velstracs in upcoming products, but Socothbenoth (and other things directly associated with sexual violence) are being left in 1st edition. If your table is interested in including those sorts of villains, they're still a part of the setting and their lore is still there in older books for you to draw from... just please make sure your fellow players and GM are all comfortable with that content before doing so.

I hope that get a second Ed book about Nidal, Shadow Realm, Velstics and Forsaken soon to detail the Demoguges.

I’d love it if the Forsaken come back or something and war/ally with the Demogoges over the Shadow plane.

Hence why I called Soocobooth a “hentai villain”. As a reference to Guro hentai stuff.

I’m kind of sad. He is a Demon Lord of perversity. But he is also important in the wider lore as being the f~~@ buddies for several other demon lords formerly including his sister and even the Archdevil Belial. Last time we saw him he was planning vengeance against his sister and reforging his staff and it seems weird to let that plot point hang.

Ok. I think the Demagogues where already mentioned in City out of Time so they decided to devout the word count to other less covered evil demigods like the Infernal Dukes or Harbingers.

I like how it’s written as to why someone would worship a Harbinger or Duke. Flavorful bits of lore that shows why someone would be drawn to worship a Fiendish demigod.

Heck they gave us edicts for the Forsaken which where only mentioned in one adventure previously.

Which fleshed them out.

It’s also might have to do with the Demagogues being kind of X-rated being a bunch of Cenobites.

It’s the same reason Socothbenoth hasn’t been mentioned in second edition. Despite being a reasonably prominent Demon Lord who engages in casual hook ups with beings like Pazuzu, having regular sexual relations with Belial, and being Nocticula‘a brother and this important to that whole plot line. He hasn’t mention in 2E for basically being a hentai villian

We didn't get Asura Rana, Kishin Oni or Rakshasa immortals either. We did get lot of good amount of new info on obscure demigods, but its still bit sad especially with new changes to rakshasa and oni.

** spoiler omitted **

Wait what adventure?

keftiu wrote:

Perpdepog wrote:

keftiu wrote:

There's also always the chance that Thuvia's city-states fall in upon one another like hungry vultures if, say, their immortality elixir fails...

Is that likely? I always understood that the sun orchid elixir was the product of highly advanced alchemy that sort of bleeds over into arcane magic, and doesn't have anything to do with the divine.

It's produced by a single immortal alchemist who has some kind of potentially-fraying agreement with Pharasma; given that we're about to spend a lot of time focused on both war and immortality, seeing something happen with all that feels quite likely, IMO.

Not to mention that the orchids themselves are getting harder and harder to find in the wild. A few fields get wiped out by some godsrain, and you either have to stop harvesting to let them grow or risk losing the species forever.

Basic economics is that you should never rely to much on any one product for most of your economy. When taken away it will lead to issues

Also on antithesiism.

Isn’t Rauhdoum’s anti deity stance fanned on by beings like Aboloths and Asura who use it as one of there base of operations?

They love the idea of mortals who reject gods.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

keftiu wrote:

Yeah, Rahadoum's chance to potentially get some hits in on not only a belligerent neighbor, but also the nation in the Inner Sea *most* beholden to one of the gods feels too juicy to ignore. I've been vocal about wanting to hear about the Rahadoumi navy for years - this is a chance for them to shine! (Or failing that, we can at least get some fun spy games out of it all).

At the very least, Rahadoum accomplishing the objective "we control the ̶A̶r̶c̶h̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶A̶r̶o̶d̶e̶n̶ Hespereth Strait" seems like an achievable objective for them.

Only if it does well enough in the war, and Andoran poorly enough, that Andoran can't object too strongly come the peace talks. Andoran wants a guarantee of free passage, not to replace Chelish tolls with Rahadoumi ones.

That is to say, yes, achievable, but also difficult.

I mean Rahadoum is certainly better than Chellax. Then again anyone is better then people that made a deal with devils.

Eeveegirl1206 wrote:

vyshan wrote:

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

To take a stab at these questions, Andoran's minimal war aims are probably something like setting up sister republics in Isger and Sirmium, securing free access through the Hespereth Strait, and annexing Anchor's End, with its maximal war aim enforcing regime change on Cheliax. Cheliax's minimal war aims probably don't go much beyond maintaining the status quo ante bellum, since the international system as it exists works basically fine for the regime. It might want to annex Elesomare and Talmandor's Bounty, and enforce a war indemnity and demilitarization on Andoran. Its maximal war aims would include reannexing Andoran (and Galt and Ravounel and Vidrian if they join the war against it, but they won't). The said maximal war aims are almost certainly beyond either belligerent's power to achieve without some exceptional circumstances (for instance, recruiting a group of four to six Warshard-empowered heroes in a context where the enemy fails to do the same). Working backwards from these aims, it stands to reason that Andoran, as the revisionist power, is likely to be the aggressor.

I think all of that makes sense. and Andoran being on the aggressive I think could be a cool thing.

That’s
** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

That’s not Paizo. Since it was done by the dirty comics everyone tried to whitewash them.

Dirty comics?

I am unfamiliar. Please explain.

I misspelled meant to say dirty commies. But it auto corrected

I like to remind people there are like five gods associated directly or indirectly with gender transition.

Arshea is the one most directly associated with queerness wanting people to be free to express themselves either gender and sexuality,

Alseta, is Pathfinder Janus and has doorways, portals, and Transtions. Both literal and figurative.

Narriseminek,The Protean lord.Has transform the bodies of the willing as a edict.

Narakaas, the Pyscohomp Usher has help people through painful decisions as an edict.

Nocticula, is the goddess of artists and outcasts and preaches that outsiders creatures made out of the metaphysical categories of evil or chaos can and will change there nature to be more fulfilled.

BookBird wrote:

Are we to believe that Set and Horus or others buddied up? Doesn't make much sense.

Um... yes? Set was one of Re's most ardent defenders against Apep? There is obviously the longstanding rivalry with Horus and the murder of Osiris, but he was still depicted as a leader and an extremely important God within Kemetic myth.

Perennial reminder that Seti I and II were both named after Set still conceived of as being divine manifestations of Horus on earth. This is one of the reasons I'm with keftiu - Kemetic mythology and culture is vastly more nuanced than what fantasy RPGs tend to portray and it really needs an RPG dedicated to IRL mythology to do it justice (games like Scion spring to mind). Set is vastly more than a one note evil deity and bluntly, the way Pathfinder has portrayed him bothers me more and more as time goes on.

That’s an issue with media in general thanks to Conan. See what Vampire the Masquerade did.

I think it’s a issue if you apply the old alignment system and apply them to actual mythological figures who are worshiped and portrayed differently and have thousands different retellings

From the Mexica take Tezcatlipoca or the smoking mirror. He was associated with conflict, obsidian, the night sky and his titles include “enemy of both sides” and “he who we are all slaves too”

Seems like a pretty malignant entity? But he was also god of slaves. Not slavery. Enslaved people. As in he protected enabled people from abuse.

At least the Egyptian gods are given some kind of respect. See how like Mesoamercian or any indigenous American religion are portrayed in popular culture.

Also it feels less down lessbecause of story purposes and more to do with legal b%%$$+$+ following the OGL. With the hags needing a rewrite.

Hm I never thought of it. But looking at the wiki pages they do seem similar.

Ashava Being a daughter or connected to Nhimbaloth makes sense .

As a Elder god Nhimbaloth is probably far older then Will O Wisps.

Maybe they were a case of convergent evolution and Nhimbaloth just happened to then associate herself with them. When they ejere made.

Not connected directly.

But like how Zon-Kuthon is associated with the Vesltlics despite not having any direct connection to them.

He's still out there, but we just haven't done much expansion of him and his lore at all in 2nd edition. In large part because of the content associated with him—he's a pretty "mature audiences only" sort of villain who doesn't lend himself well to the types of adventures and stories we've been focusing on in 2nd edition.

I understand that James. He is basically some hentai villain. Whose entire deal is breaking the taboos of established moral behavior means that even mentioning him in a work is a easy way to get people uncomfortable.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

To take a stab at these questions, Andoran's minimal war aims are probably something like setting up sister republics in Isger and Sirmium, securing free access through the Hespereth Strait, and annexing Anchor's End, with its maximal war aim enforcing regime change on Cheliax. Cheliax's minimal war aims probably don't go much beyond maintaining the status quo ante bellum, since the international system as it exists works basically fine for the regime. It might want to annex Elesomare and Talmandor's Bounty, and enforce a war indemnity and demilitarization on Andoran. Its maximal war aims would include reannexing Andoran (and Galt and Ravounel and Vidrian if they join the war against it, but they won't). The said maximal war aims are almost certainly beyond either belligerent's power to achieve without some exceptional circumstances (for instance, recruiting a group of four to six Warshard-empowered heroes in a context where the enemy fails to do the same). Working backwards from these aims, it stands to reason that Andoran, as the revisionist power, is likely to be the aggressor.

I think all of that makes sense. and Andoran being on the aggressive I think could be a cool thing.

That’s
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That’s not Paizo. Since it was done by the dirty comics everyone tried to whitewash them.

I don’t think that they would try to take over the Plane of Fire.

One of Dispater’s ex wives lives there and he’s still friendly with her.

I think having a war which isn’t divided into the good guys and baddies would be much more interesting.

Having Nidal ally with Andoran to get out of Cheliax and Andoran

Also what would be real interesting is if Cheliax tried to get out of their deal with Hell which leads to an invasion by Hell.

I’d like it if it somehow ends with Szurial and Moloch getting involved and duking it out. Through a fight like that would probably lead to the entirety of Golerion getting razed.

F#~# if this somehow leads to Andoran having to ally with Hell would be so funny

dot

Will Moloch be involved too?

Szurial and Moloch send each other letters and I guess they’d been talking quite extensively to capitalize on Gorums death.

I’d really like to see how his allegiance with Belial is going on.

First off, Yivali is a She/Her, but that's no big dealio she is a little raven they're not extremely obvious in their sexual dimorphism. Also, have you ever heard of hypocrisy, projection and being blind to your own faults? It's clearly meant to be a character bit, rather than authors being weird or AI (Paizo still are very staunchly anti-AI my guy). It's just a quirk, that's all.

It’s hypocritical humor. It’s why the Family Guy Opening has Peter complaining about sex on TV and Violence in Movies while being one of the most violence and sex filled shows on air.

The type of theft that devils generally support is wage theft and other “legal” forums of theft.

I don’t think it’s exactly legal for Hell to take them over.

And Devils are lawful evil.

Through there probably are Devils involved with diplomacy to other planes.

I have a weird fascination for him and find it strange that he was never mentioned what so over in Second edition.

He is Nocticula‘a brother and used to be her closest ally before he stupidly decided to attack his sister who was known for killing her fellow demon lords.

It seems that he wasn’t mentioned in the WOTG or Divine Mystery books that where otherwise very through of mentioning every divinity in Pathfinder but left out the Silken Sin.

Heck he was mention in the first Bestiary.

He had this very interesting plot line of allying with Hell to get protection from his sister.

It doesn’t seem like he was removed from cannon as he showed up in the Owlcat WOTR game.

I trust the company that made the 2e Mwangi Expanse and Tian Xia books to treat Arcadia with similar levels of respect.

I also understand that Pathfinder 2e is largely a game about tactical combat to the death on a battle map, and so the continent needs bad guys to beat up on. Everything we've heard suggests modern Razatlan is at least a decent place to live, and we've seen Xopatl to be quite lovely... but we also know the Halana Theocracy is in thrall to a bunch of servants of evil sky gods, and that Ohachtsik has empowered no less than five undead Armies of Fire to rampage across the land.

If El Santo can get into brawls with terrifying mummies, then I think Arcadia can be permitted some gnarly cultist types without being read as a condemnation of Mexica religious practices. Likewise, I think there's a lot of room for a more-sympathetic fantasy take on something like the Andean 'mummies,' who could be something like guardian spirits or respected ancestors - nuance, as always, is key.

There is also some uncomfortable subtext in that the trope of the “bloodthirsty hedonistic cult” is itself based on colonialist imaginations of other culture’s spiritual practices including Judaism with blood libel

Here’s a post on ask historians about it https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/PATRNdptOS

Jt being applied to anything associated with Mesoamerica has a lot of nasty baggage that I don’t think Laizo can handle.

This has real life effects in the USA Indigenous people where not allowed to practice their religions until the eighties on the basis of it being heathan superstitious.

You can have Villains that are not blood cults

keftiu wrote:

Souls At War wrote:

Eeveegirl1206 wrote:

I really hope that if Lost Omens: Arcadia gets mentioned human sacrifice is never mentioned anywhere in the text.

The practice of human sacrifice in Mesoamerica was a complex history of theological based thought that continued for thosands of years.

It was not grabbing random civilians off the street and cutting their hearts up.

I never understood the idea that human sacrifice was practicality heinous but not killing people for worshipping the same G-D in the slightly different way like what happened in Europe

Arcadia is NOT pre-colonial Americas nor colonial Americas and isn't filled with savages.

The emphatic denial is kind of strange - sure, it isn't exactly the Americas, but we know enough to say it's textually inspired by them the same way Garund is an Africa-equivalent.

EDIT: Not advocating for human sacrifice or labeling anyone 'savages,' to be clear.

Isn't Arcadia kinda more advanced than Avistan.

and someone did point out the Evil cults doing human (and others) sacrifices thing, location be damned.

The issue is that Mesoamerican have long been smeared as Devil worshipers who did blood orgy rituals which was far from the truth.

The idea of a pure evil demon lord people worship to cause eternal darkness is also fake b*+~**!+. Mesoamericans didn’t even have concepts of platonic good or evil.

Even the early frays had a hard time trying to teach the concept of "evil" in mesoamerican society because in nahuatl there isn't a word for "bad", there is only good "cualli" and not-good "ahmo cualli". Someone explained to me this with fruits: the fruit that is still immature is not good "ahmo cualli"; the ripe fruit is good "cualli", while the rotten fruit is not good "ahmo cualli" but neither of those states or phases are inherently "bad", the same applies to anything else, everything has its own time.

After stating this... the divinity that would carry the "evil" concept can be traslated to Tezcatlipoca and even so this god is also a protector of the poor and slaves. Although in modern times the word "chamuco" referring to the devil may have its roots in the god Oxomoco from the primal couple, the ancestors of the humankind.

I mean, Szuriel's waving her sword around on the cover of War of Immortals... it feels like that makes things pretty clear.

EDIT: ...though now that I think on it, both Prey for Death and Curtain Call are part of this event. The former's about Achaekek devotees, the latter seems to have Norgorbor-following villains; that's two murder-gods in the air at the same time.

All of them are involve someway in mercenary/assassin work. So a collab for the right price is not out of the question.

The question is that divine murder is a very serious crime and a overstepping of bounds even more then Desna’s murder of Aolar and that almost started a interplanar war before Calistria used her seduction skills to cause the demon lords to fight amongst themselves.

It’s possible that it’s someone else disguised as Achaekek. As Achaekek is the Assassin god and Assassin tend not to kill people in the open in front of the whole multiverse. Trying to get people mad at Achaekek.

Of course exepctions apply. Like how Lincoln was murdered in a play.

It’s worth noting Gorum lived in Elysium and had a military defense pact with them. A attack of Elysiuem is an attack on the whole plane.

I really hope that if Lost Omens: Arcadia gets mentioned human sacrifice is never mentioned anywhere in the text.

The practice of human sacrifice in Mesoamerica was a complex history of theological based thought that continued for thosands of years.

It was not grabbing random civilians off the street and cutting their hearts up.

I never understood the idea that human sacrifice was practicality heinous but not killing people for worshipping the same G-D in the slightly different way like what happened in Europe

For myself, I'd love to just go down the list of nations:

Rahadoum: I'm honestly very happy with this nation; it's one of my favorites on Golarion, and I like that their atheism has been presented as a respectable belief system in 2e materials so far. Seeing Rahadoumi magical studies and nonmagical healing blossom opens up so many interesting characters! I'm also super compelled by the potential for environmentalist plotlines, as characters aid state efforts against desertification; that scares me a lot more than orcs or demons these days, as a Californian. The violent oppression of religion I could take or leave.

Thuvia: Has always felt a little one-dimensional to me (it's the Sun Orchid place!), and it's mercantile wealth has always felt thematically redundant with Katapesh so nearby. I feel like there's a lot of potential to make the individual city-states feel more distinct - have they been written about more somewhere?

Osirion: Hooooo boy. Osirion is my single least-favorite place on Golarion. If you want Fantasy Vikings, you get a lot of variations on that flavor in the northern Avistan, but here Fantasy Egypt literally just is Fantasy Egypt. It's always felt hokey to have an Earth Pantheon here worshiped intact and unmodified, but to have it be in a place full of pyramids and mummies... it feels like a Hollywood set, not a place people live. I'd really like to see this place lean harder into being only three generations free from thousands of years of imperial rule for Ravounel and Vidrian to look to, as a symbol of what nation-building after a revolution really gets going can be like (and don't remind me that the Pharaoh's name is literally the Ancient Egyptian name for Egypt). This is a nation founded with the blessing of the god of magic, a place that birthed one of the greatest necromancers in Golarion's history - let that magical pride be a cornerstone! And if we can see some indigenous archaeology, trying to replace pulpy colonial tomb looting in favor of people reclaiming their own...

It’s worth noting that for land that is “naturally” a “dessert” trying to make it far worse. A dessert is it own unique ecosystem as valid as a forest.

Also Rhamoun was never portrayed all that badly expect for the state enforced antitheism. Much better then Satan worshiping land.

Jan Caltrop wrote:

Eeveegirl1206 wrote:

W E Ray wrote:

LOL -- and Szuriel is Gavrilo Princip waving his Nationalism Flag in the air: 'My country/ethnicity/religion is greater than yours!'

(It even *feels* Daemonic.)

Szuriel feels like she was responsible for the Balkans conflict and World War 1.

How will Szruiel be involved?

I generally shy away from "supernatural evil was the cause for real-world disaster"; so I choose to believe the incredibly entertaining instead possibility of "Szuriel had nothing to do with the start of WWI, and alternated the whole time between mentally kicking herself for not thinking of it first, and taking notes for stuff she can do in the future".

The association of Szuriel with the First World War doesn't come from nowhere. Her writeup was published in Rasputin Must Die!, after all. At the same time, neither she nor any of her followers play any role in that adventure or in the Reign of Winter Adventure Path. Although given some of the characters that took leading roles in the Russian Civil War, particularly in the Far East (Semyonov, Sternberg, et al.), one would be hard-pressed to say Daemonic agents, witting or otherwise, had no hand in events.

It comes from how Szuriel is associated with the most pointless and bloody of wars with no glory in them. Like World War 1 is commonly associated with. It is seen as a pointless land struggle that got out of hand and infected most of the world.

LOL -- and Szuriel is Gavrilo Princip waving his Nationalism Flag in the air: 'My country/ethnicity/religion is greater than yours!'

(It even *feels* Daemonic.)

Szuriel feels like she was responsible for the Balkans conflict and World War 1.

How will Szruiel be involved?

Is Gorum the archduke Ferdinand of the setting?

Szuriel being on the cover and Gorum dying seems bad.

Is Szuriel doing a Lamshutu?

Szuriel is on the cover of War of the Immortals s&~*.

Does she have something to do with the death of Gorum?

Also since he lives in Eslyum under a military pact killing him is a attack on the entire plane of Eslyum.

Including Calsitia and Desna. People known for being scary when mad.

bugleyman wrote:

AceofMoxen wrote:

If creating a cake is art, then creating a mini is art. Art is automatically protected at creation. "Beak-Bear," to the extent it is copyrightable, belongs to the mini guy.

I do not believe that is correct. The art that is protected by copyright in your scenario is (only) that specific sculpture. "Beak-bear" is uncopyrightable, because it is an idea. So one could not take a cast of the sculpture and start cranking out copies, but one would be entirely free to create one's own sculpture of a conceptually identical creature.

Generally speaking, copyright protects expression, while trademarks protect creations. Think of it this way: copyright stops me from selling copies of The Sorcerer's Stone, while it is trademark protections which prevent me from writing a book about the wizard Harry Potter.

Note: I am not a lawyer, but I did survive business law as an undergrad (i.e. back in the before times).

I did say "to the extent it is copyrightable." I'm very curious where the line is for any type of bird-bear hybrids, but establishing that the idea predates Gygax is an important part of that.

Are not Balors basically the Balrogs from Lord of the Rings with the last letter changed?

Alongside Halflings being Hobbits.

The Owlbear itself was based on a cheap figurine Gygax’s and his pals had.

The idea of Hell and Demons is based on folklore.