"Mommy, where do Dragonkin come from?"

[E-div_drone]

Given the lore that was released in Interstellar Species, this one has me confussalled. They now say that Dragonkin lack sexual morphism, which, given the context of the section, implies they lack sexual organs. This begs the question as to just how they reproduce.

I would think that the most logical answer would be that they are like dragons, in that the only difference in sexual development in Dragonkin is the organs for reproduction, which as typical for reptilian type creatures, the organs are hidden except when in use. All other traits are identical between the sexes.

[BigNorseWolf]

Sexual dimorphism means you can tell by looking , it doesn't mean they have the same genitals. Just that they're not really visible unless they're in use.

[Davor Firetusk]

Sexual dimorphism is about physical traits aside from any genitalia differences that make male and female members of a species measurably distinct. Humans as a familiar example exhibit only modest dimorphism.

[BigNorseWolf]

Davor Firetusk wrote:

Sexual dimorphism is about physical traits aside from any genitalia differences that make male and female members of a species measurably distinct. Humans as a familiar example exhibit only modest dimorphism.

Enough for other critters to tell though. Prarie dog warnings will include the size gender and location of a human intruder.

Presumably over 20,000 years of interaction, they needed to know whether the human was going to pass by collecting mushrooms or try to light the place on fire.

[Davor Firetusk]

Clarifying, modest dimorphism was only meant to illustrate some species exhibit much less difference in sexes, and some more physical differences in the two sexes (which is the appropriate term in this situation).

[Radam]

As it was already pointed out, sexual dimorphism just means (physical) differences between sexes. So dragonkin of different sexes would be the same hight, same color, ect. At best there are likely only slight differences in bone structure to account for the birthing process. And maybe different pheromones so that dragonkin would have at least a hunch what sex another one is as otherwise reproduction would be a bit complicated. But I am not sure if pheromones even fall into the dimorphism category.

Speaking of reproduction, what I find more interesting is that the book implies that dragonkin can have offspring with non-dragonkin.

No idea if there has been an official word yet how cross species compatibility works? I assume dragons and dragonkin in Pathfinder have inherited the D&D ability of being fertile with basically anything.

[BigNorseWolf]

Only they know the difference

One of the mentioned but overlooked species with little sexual dimorphism is ysoki. My envoy wears a giant pink bow on her tail because humans care for some reason but are really bad at telling.

[E-div_drone]

Interstellar species doesn’t say they lack dimorphism, it says they completely lack sexual morphism, and choose what they are. There is a distinct difference.

[CorvusMask]

I get feeling that the author likely meant sexual dimoporphism(and confused terms) since text makes mention of dragonkin being pretty eager to use magic and technology to modify their body to their preference. Like I don't get sense that they are meant to be like those species which change sex on will by biology.

(I'm more confused by how book implies, but glosses over how it works that dragonkin can reproduce with other humanoids)

[Wei Ji the Learner]

CorvusMask wrote:

I get feeling that the author likely meant sexual dimoporphism(and confused terms) since text makes mention of dragonkin being pretty eager to use magic and technology to modify their body to their preference. Like I don't get sense that they are meant to be like those species which change sex on will by biology.

(I'm more confused by how book implies, but glosses over how it works that dragonkin can reproduce with other humanoids)

Oh, they don't gloss over it.

The book specifically *states* that it happens, but not as much as it used to in an earlier time.

And as far as changing gender/sex, they are as 'fluid' as they want to be, using magic and biotech to make it happen (it doesn't look like it's an inherent 'switch', though it's entirely possible and I'd never begrudge someone who has the option to rearrange their own body that ability.)

[Radam]

We know from adventures that there are male and female dragonkin. So this sentence from the book just means that there are no outward differences between the sexes.
"Choosing what they are" in this context means gender and that because their bodies are the same for both sexes, their gender is the only thing that defines how they style themselves.

And as I already said above, like Corvus I am more interested about the reproducing with humanoids part.
Is this normal in Starfinder (similar how D&D wants to handle it in the next edition)? Something special dragonkin can do (because the D&D dragons at least in the past were fertile with everything, a trait that copied over to Pathfinder, then Starfinder and then dragonkin)?

Generally I am a bit conflicted about the dragonkin entry. One one side having such a detailed account of bonding adds depth, but on the other side that leaves them quite one dimensional and I would have likes also other topics touched upon like how they handle this quite big size variance or the thing from Pact Worlds (I think?) expanded upon that dragonkin look like how vesk think afterlife would look like and what consequences that has.

[JiCi]

True dragons don't have visual sexual dimorphism, aside from females being able to lay eggs. I assume dragonkins are the same, with the only noticeable gender trait being their voices.

[Metaphysician]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Only they know the difference

One of the mentioned but overlooked species with little sexual dimorphism is ysoki. My envoy wears a giant pink bow on her tail because humans care for some reason but are really bad at telling.

Ysoki are an interesting case, since if you take the various art seriously, they aren't a species that *lacks* morphism entirely ( ie, every member looks largely the same ). They have extremely divergent forms, just not in ways that are discernibly linked to sex.

I tend to imagine that this is at least partially the result of the Ysoki being descended from multiple independent races of "rat folk", that developed on different planets but because Fantasy Cosmic Genetics, were still interfertile. Only, instead of "averaging out" their phenotypes, the result was greater variety. Presumably something about Ysoki genetics favors traits being 'competitively dominant', so now you have modern Ysoki kids born with a random draw of the most extreme anatomical traits of their past ten generations of ancestors.

[CorvusMask]

JiCi wrote:

True dragons don't have visual sexual dimorphism, aside from females being able to lay eggs. I assume dragonkins are the same, with the only noticeable gender trait being their voices.

Tbf, are we sure dragons have canonically different sounding voices in first place?

[JiCi]

CorvusMask wrote:

JiCi wrote:

True dragons don't have visual sexual dimorphism, aside from females being able to lay eggs. I assume dragonkins are the same, with the only noticeable gender trait being their voices.

Tbf, are we sure dragons have canonically different sounding voices in first place?

Well, we cannot hear a book XD

It's more that in other medias, huge female creatures... have distinct female voices, albeit deeper sounding.

Think Maleficient in Disney's Sleeping Beauty ;)

[Garretmander]

CorvusMask wrote:

JiCi wrote:

True dragons don't have visual sexual dimorphism, aside from females being able to lay eggs. I assume dragonkins are the same, with the only noticeable gender trait being their voices.

Tbf, are we sure dragons have canonically different sounding voices in first place?

Mass media says yes. Physics says probably not.

[Metaphysician]

Garretmander wrote:

CorvusMask wrote:

JiCi wrote:

True dragons don't have visual sexual dimorphism, aside from females being able to lay eggs. I assume dragonkins are the same, with the only noticeable gender trait being their voices.

Tbf, are we sure dragons have canonically different sounding voices in first place?

Mass media says yes. Physics says probably not.

Eh, in humans the difference in voice register between men and women is a secondary sexual characteristic itself, not an inevitable side effect of physics ( men and women with similar size and mass will still have different vocal ranges ). Even if dragons have no size difference between the sexes, vocal properties could still be a dimorphic characteristic. It doesn't *have* to be, sure, but it requires no special effort to justify. Admittedly, it probably shouldn't coincidentally match human assumptions about voice and sex, either, save for audience convenience.

[BigNorseWolf]

Metaphysician wrote:

Admittedly, it probably shouldn't coincidentally match human assumptions about voice and sex, either, save for audience convenience.

I was DMing a male and female vesk talking to the party. Started with Lrr Of Omicron perseii 8! Voice. Dropped it slightly to do the female vesk, then said "hey wait a second female vesk are the bigger ones..." and switched to Lrr of Omicron Preseii eight! for the male and LRR OF OMICRON PERSEII EIGHT!!!! for the female

[JiCi]

Metaphysician wrote:

Eh, in humans the difference in voice register between men and women is a secondary sexual characteristic itself, not an inevitable side effect of physics ( men and women with similar size and mass will still have different vocal ranges ). Even if dragons have no size difference between the sexes, vocal properties could still be a dimorphic characteristic. It doesn't *have* to be, sure, but it requires no special effort to justify. Admittedly, it probably shouldn't coincidentally match human assumptions about voice and sex, either, save for audience convenience.

Don't female dogs have higher-pitched barks than males, given the same size and breed?

[Claxon]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Metaphysician wrote:

Admittedly, it probably shouldn't coincidentally match human assumptions about voice and sex, either, save for audience convenience.

I was DMing a male and female vesk talking to the party. Started with Lrr Of Omicron perseii 8! Voice. Dropped it slightly to do the female vesk, then said "hey wait a second female vesk are the bigger ones..." and switched to Lrr of Omicron Preseii eight! for the male and LRR OF OMICRON PERSEII EIGHT!!!! for the female

Well you know what they say, women are from Omicron Persei 7 and men are from Omicron Persei 9!

[Metaphysician]

JiCi wrote:

Metaphysician wrote:

Eh, in humans the difference in voice register between men and women is a secondary sexual characteristic itself, not an inevitable side effect of physics ( men and women with similar size and mass will still have different vocal ranges ). Even if dragons have no size difference between the sexes, vocal properties could still be a dimorphic characteristic. It doesn't *have* to be, sure, but it requires no special effort to justify. Admittedly, it probably shouldn't coincidentally match human assumptions about voice and sex, either, save for audience convenience.

Don't female dogs have higher-pitched barks than males, given the same size and breed?

I think so, but note that dogs are fellow mammals who also use testosterone and estrogen as their primary sex hormones. How sexual dimorphism works for a closely related species is not how it works for more distantly related species. And while fantasy space genetics means that a mammal is probably a mammal even if it evolved on a completely different planet. . . dragons and dragonkin are potentially various things, but definitely *not* mammals. ;)

[JiCi]

Metaphysician wrote:

JiCi wrote:

Metaphysician wrote:

Eh, in humans the difference in voice register between men and women is a secondary sexual characteristic itself, not an inevitable side effect of physics ( men and women with similar size and mass will still have different vocal ranges ). Even if dragons have no size difference between the sexes, vocal properties could still be a dimorphic characteristic. It doesn't *have* to be, sure, but it requires no special effort to justify. Admittedly, it probably shouldn't coincidentally match human assumptions about voice and sex, either, save for audience convenience.

Don't female dogs have higher-pitched barks than males, given the same size and breed?

I think so, but note that dogs are fellow mammals who also use testosterone and estrogen as their primary sex hormones. How sexual dimorphism works for a closely related species is not how it works for more distantly related species. And while fantasy space genetics means that a mammal is probably a mammal even if it evolved on a completely different planet. . . dragons and dragonkin are potentially various things, but definitely *not* mammals. ;)

True, but their vocal cords and tracheas "obey" the same laws of physics that the bigger and thicker these are, the hollower and deeper the sound will be.

[BretI]

JiCi wrote:

True, but their vocal cords and tracheas "obey" the same laws of physics that the bigger and thicker these are, the hollower and deeper the sound will be.

If you are considering that, better also take into account that all dragonkin have breath weapons. I would think that has a much larger effect on their voices than gender.

[BigNorseWolf]

JiCi wrote:

True, but their vocal cords and tracheas "obey" the same laws of physics that the bigger and thicker these are, the hollower and deeper the sound will be.

Well, who says males are the bigger ones?

You can also evolve other factors (like the adams apple in humans) to exagerate the effect. Maybe female dragons have a little extra echo chamber there to scare potential predators away from the nest.

The big thing with dragons is they don't stop growing. Voice would just be an assumption of size. A deeper voiced dragon would just sound like a bigger one. It wouldn't help differentiate gender.

[Metaphysician]

Yeah, all else being equal you would expect a larger animal to be louder and lower, but nothing says male dragons have to be bigger. Hell, given that they are usually portrayed as egg-layers who keep and protect nests, I could see good arguments that *female* dragons would be the bigger ones, to better protect the nest and hatchlings. Which, IIRC, has precedent in at least some reptiles and birds.

That aside, I hadn't considered the interaction between breath weapons and vocalizations, and its a *really* cool idea. Literally, in the case of some species like white and silver dragons. *ahem* I could see it going two different ways, possibly at the same time: either a dragon species has vocalizations whose sound is influenced by the structures need to generate the breath weapon ( ex: resonance through a thick sac of compressed gas for a poison breather ); or vocalization that are in part generated *by* the breath weapon structure ( ex: low level combustion generating some of the tones in a fire breather ).

[JiCi]

According to Starfinder, the best way to know a Dragonkin's gender... is to ask them directly. Still, as medias showed us, gigantic monsters like dragons have deep but distinct male or female voices.

[Tengu Fertility Counselor]

Before we start which one of you is the male?

Dragons in unison "HE IS"

"Facepalm. Half of my day I swear...

[Radam]

So as we do not have any half-dragon(kin) and from how the wording of their entry is I assume the offspring of a dragonkin is a dragonkin with some small features of the other parents species (smaller, more dexterous hands, that sort of thing)?
Or I guess its rather the species of the mother with slight features of the father?

[John Mangrum]

For my house rules dragonkin have diverged enough that dragonkin born to the dragonkin parent are dragonkin, while those born to the non-dragonkin parent belong to that parent's species with draconic traits (in other words, a fairly common origin for the dragonblood theme).

[Metaphysician]

Tengu Fertility Counselor wrote:

Before we start which one of you is the male?

Dragons in unison "HE IS"

"Facepalm. Half of my day I swear...

You know, thinking about it. . . given dragons are traditionally portrayed as few in numbers with an extremely long maturation cycle? It might actually make biological sense if their species were *hermaphroditic*. That way, you don't run into problems of sex mismatch in a small population, anyone can reproduce with anyone.

[BigNorseWolf]

Metaphysician wrote:

Tengu Fertility Counselor wrote:

Before we start which one of you is the male?

Dragons in unison "HE IS"

"Facepalm. Half of my day I swear...

You know, thinking about it. . . given dragons are traditionally portrayed as few in numbers with an extremely long maturation cycle? It might actually make biological sense if their species were *hermaphroditic*. That way, you don't run into problems of sex mismatch in a small population, anyone can reproduce with anyone.

Game of thrones took that route. But there are also dragons described as She dragons so... maybe they just had their prefered positions or they could switch hit.