You are still not hitting the target as touching and hitting are very different things.In my opinion it’s pretty clear that “touch” in a spell description is just a descriptor for the range of the spell for the purposes of targeting, and that’s it. Otherwise a normal Vampiric Touch would be affected by Mirror Image, but Reach Spell + Vampiric Touch would not because now it’s a targeted spell with 30ft range. I don’t think Mirror Image protects against every hostile targeted effect, otherwise it would talk about being targeted rather than being attacked.Actually Touch specifically says that it requires you to physically touch the target, and you use your unarmed reach.
It is covered in some spells like FireShield which triggers on a touch or a melee attack.
adjacent creatures that hit you with a melee attack, as well as creatures that touch you or hit you with an unarmed attack, take 2d6 fire damageThough that sentence is wierd, because reach with a weapon avoids the effect, but not reach with touch / unarmed attacks.
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You are still not hitting the target as touching and hitting are very different things.In my opinion it’s pretty clear that “touch” in a spell description is just a descriptor for the range of the spell for the purposes of targeting, and that’s it. Otherwise a normal Vampiric Touch would be affected by Mirror Image, but Reach Spell + Vampiric Touch would not because now it’s a targeted spell with 30ft range. I don’t think Mirror Image protects against every hostile targeted effect, otherwise it would talk about being targeted rather than being attacked.Actually Touch specifically says that it requires you to physically touch the target, and you use your unarmed reach.It is covered in some spells like FireShield which triggers on a touch or a melee attack.
adjacent creatures that hit you with a melee attack, as well as creatures that touch you or hit you with an unarmed attack, take 2d6 fire damageThough that sentence is wierd, because reach with a weapon avoids the effect, but not reach with touch / unarmed attacks.
I think that was the desired intention. Unarmed strikes with reach would still be affecting the target, but attacking with a weapon with reach would protect you from the effect.
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Tripping and grappling have the attack trait and the skill checks to make those attacks count as attack rolls for the purpose of determining whether the attack hits or misses.
Magic Missile also uses the language of hitting a target, and would thus also constitute an attack that hits you.
It is saving throw abilities specifically (which all got errata'd to remove the attack trait) that do not have a step in their process where "hitting" occurs. Saving throw abilities work much more like you make an effect in a location and then the character that is in that location has to determine how powerful the effect is for them. That is why the language of Mirror Image not interacting with the targeting turns it into such a mess to apply to actions which are not attacks in the rules sense. As long as you don't try to apply it to actions not rules defined as attacks, it is not a messy or confusing ability at all.
They only count as an attack roll for the purposes of MAP; they are otherwise skill checks, and the rules were errata'd to do this. Skill Checks aren't attacks in the same way a saving throw isn't an attack. Otherwise, bonuses to attack rolls would apply to these checks, and they don't, so I'm not convinced that the trait is the sole indicator of an "attack" in this case.
And I disagree with it being non-sensible to rule it that way. Just as well, saving throw effects do not target a square unless it says it does. Scatter Scree has an area line, Electric Arc has a target line. Electric Arc would trigger an image roll. Scatter Scree would not.
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I think Mirror Image's current effect has to be taken as a balance effect than a logical one. In PF2, having the same effect than PF1 Mirror Image would ask for a far higher spell slot. And it looks like Paizo hasn't modified the levels of spells in this edition (certainly to stay consistent inside the lore) so they have nerfed Mirror Image for it to stay balanced with the competition (namely Blur).
If you want Mirror Image to work against every targeted effect, I encourage you to increase it to level 4 (in my opinion it's balanced with Invisibility 4 if it works against everything).
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Tripping and grappling have the attack trait and the skill checks to make those attacks count as attack rolls for the purpose of determining whether the attack hits or misses.
Magic Missile also uses the language of hitting a target, and would thus also constitute an attack that hits you.
It is saving throw abilities specifically (which all got errata'd to remove the attack trait) that do not have a step in their process where "hitting" occurs. Saving throw abilities work much more like you make an effect in a location and then the character that is in that location has to determine how powerful the effect is for them. That is why the language of Mirror Image not interacting with the targeting turns it into such a mess to apply to actions which are not attacks in the rules sense. As long as you don't try to apply it to actions not rules defined as attacks, it is not a messy or confusing ability at all.
They only count as an attack roll for the purposes of MAP; they are otherwise skill checks, and the rules were errata'd to do this. Skill Checks aren't attacks in the same way a saving throw isn't an attack. Otherwise, bonuses to attack rolls would apply to these checks, and they don't, so I'm not convinced that the trait is the sole indicator of an "attack" in this case.
And I disagree with it being non-sensible to rule it that way. Just as well, saving throw effects do not target a square unless it says it does. Scatter Scree has an area line, Electric Arc has a target line. Electric Arc would trigger an image roll. Scatter Scree would not.
I misspoke using attack roll, but Trip and grapple are examples of attacks that can hit a target, which is all that is required to interact with the mechanics of Mirror Image, which is the same reason it would apply to magic missile.
Saving throw spells don't hit their targets. They have an effect. The target determines the severity of the effect. Maybe that interferes with the way you imagine these spells to work and want Mirror Image to interact with things differently, but as Superbidi points out, that probably requires further modification to the spell as it significantly boosts its power.
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I think Mirror Image's current effect has to be taken as a balance effect than a logical one. In PF2, having the same effect than PF1 Mirror Image would ask for a far higher spell slot. And it looks like Paizo hasn't modified the levels of spells in this edition (certainly to stay consistent inside the lore) so they have nerfed Mirror Image for it to stay balanced with the competition (namely Blur).
If you want Mirror Image to work against every targeted effect, I encourage you to increase it to level 4 (in my opinion it's balanced with Invisibility 4 if it works against everything).
But it's already balanced by the fact that even misses remove an image (giving a missed attack a benefit on a failure), and it caps to a maximum of 3 attacks that it can impact before it ends and has to be recast again. It doesn't last anywhere near as long as Blur does, nor can it affect anywhere near as many attacks, even if Mirror Images is a lot more frontloaded by comparison.
I would make it Heightened 7th and remove the image loss on a miss clause if I was going to change it.
Tripping and grappling have the attack trait and the skill checks to make those attacks count as attack rolls for the purpose of determining whether the attack hits or misses.
Magic Missile also uses the language of hitting a target, and would thus also constitute an attack that hits you.
It is saving throw abilities specifically (which all got errata'd to remove the attack trait) that do not have a step in their process where "hitting" occurs. Saving throw abilities work much more like you make an effect in a location and then the character that is in that location has to determine how powerful the effect is for them. That is why the language of Mirror Image not interacting with the targeting turns it into such a mess to apply to actions which are not attacks in the rules sense. As long as you don't try to apply it to actions not rules defined as attacks, it is not a messy or confusing ability at all.
They only count as an attack roll for the purposes of MAP; they are otherwise skill checks, and the rules were errata'd to do this. Skill Checks aren't attacks in the same way a saving throw isn't an attack. Otherwise, bonuses to attack rolls would apply to these checks, and they don't, so I'm not convinced that the trait is the sole indicator of an "attack" in this case.
And I disagree with it being non-sensible to rule it that way. Just as well, saving throw effects do not target a square unless it says it does. Scatter Scree has an area line, Electric Arc has a target line. Electric Arc would trigger an image roll. Scatter Scree would not.
I misspoke using attack roll, but Trip and grapple are examples of attacks that can hit a target, which is all that is required to interact with the mechanics of Mirror Image, which is the same reason it would apply to magic missile.
Saving throw spells don't hit their targets. They have an effect. The target determines the severity of the effect. Maybe that interferes with the...
While I agree a combat maneuver should check against mirror images, you could take Magic Missile and spread the missiles out to 3 of the "images" in the square, consequently destroying at least 2 of them (since they are auto-hits), if not all 3 if you are unlucky. Who needs Dispel Magic when this spell gets trounced by a 1st level Magic Missile? Since the targets are predetermined, even if they swirl around in the square during its travel time, it unerringly hits the initial targets you designated.
If I have to roll a flat check to target an enemy with concealment with the likes of Vampiric Touch (because it is unclear where they are at precisely), then a similar mechanic (not unlike the one described for attacks in the Mirror Image spell) should likewise apply to being able to target the correct caster instead of an image with a given targeted saving throw spell. The argument of "the spell has an effect and the target determines the effect, so its not considered a traditional attack" seems to only work if the decision for Mirror Images to not play a part is vetoed because "reasons." And because combat maneuvers aren't traditional attacks, but still follow Mirror Image rules, it just doesn't add up.
I think Mirror Image's current effect has to be taken as a balance effect than a logical one. In PF2, having the same effect than PF1 Mirror Image would ask for a far higher spell slot. And it looks like Paizo hasn't modified the levels of spells in this edition (certainly to stay consistent inside the lore) so they have nerfed Mirror Image for it to stay balanced with the competition (namely Blur).
If you want Mirror Image to work against every targeted effect, I encourage you to increase it to level 4 (in my opinion it's balanced with Invisibility 4 if it works against everything).
But it's already balanced by the fact that even misses remove an image (giving a missed attack a benefit on a failure), and it caps to a maximum of 3 attacks that it can impact before it ends and has to be recast again. It doesn't last anywhere near as long as Blur does, nor can it affect anywhere near as many attacks, even if Mirror Images is a lot more frontloaded by comparison.
I would make it Heightened 7th and remove the image loss on a miss clause if I was going to change it.
I believe it is those features that make it not Blur but comparable to Blur. I think I agree that for it to work as a greater blanket (any targeted attacks), it should be higher level. I’m not sure about level 4 as heightened Invisibility is a flat miss chance plus free hide checks (line of sight is always broken) for a full minute. I guess that leaves level 3…
But it's already balanced by the fact that even misses remove an image (giving a missed attack a benefit on a failure), and it caps to a maximum of 3 attacks that it can impact before it ends and has to be recast again. It doesn't last anywhere near as long as Blur does, nor can it affect anywhere near as many attacks, even if Mirror Images is a lot more frontloaded by comparison.
I would make it Heightened 7th and remove the image loss on a miss clause if I was going to change it.
For Blur to deflect 3 attacks you need to take 15 of them on average, so you're out since quite some time before taking that many of them. Also, Mirror Image is frontloaded so you know you'll get some protection outside of extremely unlucky streaks when Blur may be absolutely useless even if you take a bunch of attacks.
I believe it is those features that make it not Blur but comparable to Blur. I think I agree that for it to work as a greater blanket (any targeted attacks), it should be higher level. I’m not sure about level 4 as heightened Invisibility is a flat miss chance plus free hide checks (line of sight is always broken) for a full minute. I guess that leaves level 3…
There are more counters to Invisibility: Glitterdust and See Invisibility. On top of it, any Sense outside vision will counter it when Mirror Image affects you as long as you see so you need to specifically close your eyes for it not to affect you (which may have other negative effects).
And Mirror Image offers a greater level of protection at first (75% miss chance). So if you expect to take a few strong attacks, it will protect you better. Also, there's the question of what removes an image, if you have high AC/Saves, it may be hard to remove them.I agree that Invisibility 4 is better, but I'd still put a Mirror Image affecting any targeted effect at level 4.
Magic missile doesn't make additional potential targets though. All of them are swirling too close together for that. A magic missile cannot target a mirror image as a different target than the character themselves. If you are casting magic missile at a target who has mirror image cast, the missiles all hit whatever image the singular die roll determines them to hit. a single action magic missile can clear an image, but 3 of them has a good chance of being a waste of actions.
If the rules as written don't satisfy the narrative you want for the game, that is what house rules are for. You should feel free to change them at your table, just make sure everyone knows those changes and they are not sprung on players in the middle of an encounter if you can avoid it.
I have never encountered players deciding Mirror Image was a bad second level spell because it only affects attacks and not targeted saving throws. It is still one of the most common second level spells I ever see cast.
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Magic missile doesn't make additional potential targets though. All of them are swirling too close together for that. A magic missile cannot target a mirror image as a different target than the character themselves. If you are casting magic missile at a target who has mirror image cast, the missiles all hit whatever image the singular die roll determines them to hit. a single action magic missile can clear an image, but 3 of them has a good chance of being a waste of actions.
If the rules as written don't satisfy the narrative you want for the game, that is what house rules are for. You should feel free to change them at your table, just make sure everyone knows those changes and they are not sprung on players in the middle of an encounter if you can avoid it.
I have never encountered players deciding Mirror Image was a bad second level spell because it only affects attacks and not targeted saving throws. It is still one of the most common second level spells I ever see cast.
The rules don't say that at all. All the rules say is that the images swirl in your square, potentially causing the attack to affect them instead of you. There is nothing saying that you can't target multiple images in a square with an ability that targets creatures, not unlike Magic Missiles.
Three illusory images of you swirl about your space, potentially causing those who attack you to hit one of the images instead of you. Any attack that would hit you has a random chance of hitting one of your images instead of you.
And guess what? It's only a 2nd level spell. Seems legit that 1st level Magic Missiles trump it when used correctly.
How do you target one of the images? Is it a creature? The target of magic missile cannot be "an image of the creature", at least not by the rules as written. Mirror image does not make illusory duplicates that someone could mistake as different creatures from the caster of the spell, it makes it difficult to tell where exactly the creature is and how to hit them.
Targeting 1 creature with magic missile means:
If you shoot more than one missile at the same target, combine the damage before applying bonuses or penalties to damage, resistances, weaknesses, and so forth.
Magic missile cast at one target hits that target with all the missiles.
How do you target one of the images? Is it a creature? The target of magic missile cannot be "an image of the creature", at least not by the rules as written. Mirror image does not make illusory duplicates that someone could mistake as different creatures from the caster of the spell, it makes it difficult to tell where exactly the creature is and how to hit them.
Targeting 1 creature with magic missile means:
If you shoot more than one missile at the same target, combine the damage before applying bonuses or penalties to damage, resistances, weaknesses, and so forth.
Magic missile cast at one target hits that target with all the missiles.
I don't see why it's not a creature, because to your senses, it is. There is nothing that suggests any one of those images is not the creature, since that is essentially how Illusions work in this edition. Even if you know they cast Mirror Image, you don't know which one is real and which one is not, so you'd have to assume each one is real until the spell ends by dispersing all the images. They might occupy the same square, but they are still separate entities from one another.
That description sounds more like Blur than Mirror Image. Mirror Image doesn't invoke a miss chance by being "hard to see," it creates a guessing game where you have to figure out which one is the "right" one, and it changes every time. You literally create 3 visual clones of yourself that occupy the same square and basically play a coconut game at all times. A Strike can only affect one target. Magic Missiles has multiple, and you said it yourself that Magic Missiles would destroy images on hits, and that targets are designated and attacked simultaneously. If I see 4 of the same Image, and have 12 Missiles, each one is being doused with 3 Missiles a piece, destroying the images and peppering a bit of damage in there. There is nothing that says I can't clearly discern 4 images of the creature enough that I can't target one.
That line only makes sense for if the target is one and the same. 4 images of the creature should mean 4 separate "targets" for the spell.
See Invisibility and Glitterdust don’t fully negate but reduce the effect of Invisibility by going from hidden to concealed. That’s also the case with Faerie Fire. That means the invisible character still has a 20% miss chance versus any attacks against the character. I guess it would depend on how many attacks are being made towards the character in question. I can see it being a level 4 spell for the points you made, but I also think that would make it on the bottom rung of potential of a 4th level spell’s power.
Theory crafting spells aside, I do think Mirror Image as it stands only works for attack rolls that target AC based on the second paragraph of the spell’s description:
“Once an image is hit, it is destroyed. If an attack roll fails to hit your AC but doesn't critically fail, it destroys an image but has no additional effect (even if the attack would normally have an effect on a failure). If an attack roll is a critical success and would hit one of the images, one of the images is destroyed and the attack roll becomes a success against you. Once all the images are destroyed, the spell ends.”
There seems to be emphasis on AC and attack roll. Athletics doesn’t target AC, and Vampiric Touch targets a saving throw. Neither would affect an image based on that. I do think that narratively it makes sense for images to work against both of the above cases, but then I also see this as a game balance issue where mechanic overrules narrative.
See Invisibility and Glitterdust don’t fully negate but reduce the effect of Invisibility by going from hidden to concealed. That’s also the case with Faerie Fire. That means the invisible character still has a 20% miss chance versus any attacks against the character. I guess it would depend on how many attacks are being made towards the character in question. I can see it being a level 4 spell for the points you made, but I also think that would make it on the bottom rung of potential of a 4th level spell’s power.
Theory crafting spells aside, I do think Mirror Image as it stands only works for attack rolls that target AC based on the second paragraph of the spell’s description:
“Once an image is hit, it is destroyed. If an attack roll fails to hit your AC but doesn't critically fail, it destroys an image but has no additional effect (even if the attack would normally have an effect on a failure). If an attack roll is a critical success and would hit one of the images, one of the images is destroyed and the attack roll becomes a success against you. Once all the images are destroyed, the spell ends.”
There seems to be emphasis on AC and attack roll. Athletics doesn’t target AC, and Vampiric Touch targets a saving throw. Neither would affect an image based on that. I do think that narratively it makes sense for images to work against both of the above cases, but then I also see this as a game balance issue where mechanic overrules narrative.
See, I read that second sentence in the paragraph as an exception provided to attack rolls still generating an effect on a failure, as evidenced by the following part of that sentence referring to "no additional effect," meaning an ability with a Failure effect (such as Certain Strike) would not trigger with missing from Mirror Images; it overrides the Failure effect you would otherwise normally gain. With that, I find it's not obviously only intended to refer to AC. Now, if it referred to attack rolls, and not just attacks, the language would be far more mechanically obvious that it refers to strikes from weapons, spells, etc. than an effect that doesn't check against AC in the first place. In my opinion, if it was meant for attack rolls, and only attack rolls, they could have easily substituted that in.
While narrative is a large driving force behind my opinion, I find that the reverse interpretation doesn't hold up when scrutinized to that level, whereas conversely, not much is changed when viewed in the same lense as Concealed/Hidden.
If it specified attack rolls, you could trip or grapple someone through mirror image.
Yes, I don't suppose we should overcomplicate and read too much into this. We also shouldn't tear Mirror image down into its components, it's a one whole thing: while it wasn't airtightly worded, it's about AC Attacks. Only. So it does not interact with save effects. It also does not interact with Magic Missile as it's not interacting with AC and MI doesn't interact with targeting like Blur. So while MM just works through MI, you also can't target images with it as they aren't creatures (no, 'it's an illusory creature' won't work because that isn't what's written).
By the way, there's at least one more spell with this feature (or close enough): Sanctuary. "You ward a creature with protective energy that deters enemy attacks. Creatures attempting to attack the target must attempt a Will save each time." Sadly, save and non-targeted effects go right through, because it doesn't prevent 'hostile actions'.BTW I strongly dislike Mirror Image not because it lets through save effects, but because images shatter on simple misses and they fail on critical hits (even though converting them to basic hits). That's probably the most 'feels terrible' effect in the game. It literally and rather easily could do absolutely nothing.
Aren't all hostile actions attacks, though? I'd be inclined to believe that to be the case if there were more common "hostile actions" that aren't simplified to likewise be "attacks" in a casual reading. But I find it hard to believe that the sentences aren't simply using "attack" in the casual sense, which would include "hostile actions" by proxy.
If it specified attack rolls, you could trip or grapple someone through mirror image.
Except you still can, even if it doesn't specify attack rolls, so I'm not sure what you're expecting this clarification to change in that sense. As it stands, Trip and Grapple still bypass Images by it not being an attack, in the same way Vampiric Touch and Break Free is not an attack; they are skill checks and saving throws.
Except you still can, even if it doesn't specify attack rolls, so I'm not sure what you're expecting this clarification to change in that sense. As it stands, Trip and Grapple still bypass Images by it not being an attack, in the same way Vampiric Touch and Break Free is not an attack; they are skill checks and saving throws.
Trip and Grapple are both attacks.
Trip and Grapple are both attacks.
Except you still can, even if it doesn't specify attack rolls, so I'm not sure what you're expecting this clarification to change in that sense. As it stands, Trip and Grapple still bypass Images by it not being an attack, in the same way Vampiric Touch and Break Free is not an attack; they are skill checks and saving throws.
They are skill checks, not attacks. Bonuses to attack rolls do not affect them, so they aren't attacks by proxy.
Attack is more than attack rolls, but is a bit of a nebulous term and makes it a little confusing about what is and is not relevant. Ultimately, it will come down to GM discussion.
They are skill checks, not attacks. Bonuses to attack rolls do not affect them, so they aren't attacks by proxy.Trip and Grapple are both attacks.
Except you still can, even if it doesn't specify attack rolls, so I'm not sure what you're expecting this clarification to change in that sense. As it stands, Trip and Grapple still bypass Images by it not being an attack, in the same way Vampiric Touch and Break Free is not an attack; they are skill checks and saving throws.
They are not attack rolls, but they are attacks. One of the first errats for the CRB emphasized that these are separate things.
Attack is more than attack rolls, but is a bit of a nebulous term and makes it a little confusing about what is and is not relevant. Ultimately, it will come down to GM discussion.
When a creature tries to harm another creature, it makes a Strike or uses some other attack action. Most attacks are Strikes made with a weapon, but a character might Strike with their fist, grapple or shove with their hands, or attack with a spell.
So the Attack rules refer to Strikes, or "some other attack action," and also refers to attacking "with a spell" as an example of an attack. It does not expressly refer to attack rolls in particular (since it references grappling and shoving, which are skill checks), and it doesn't expressly exclude non-attack roll actions. In fact, I would say "some other attack action" would refer to a non-attack roll effect, like a saving throw or a skill check.
They are skill checks, not attacks. Bonuses to attack rolls do not affect them, so they aren't attacks by proxy.Trip and Grapple are both attacks.
Except you still can, even if it doesn't specify attack rolls, so I'm not sure what you're expecting this clarification to change in that sense. As it stands, Trip and Grapple still bypass Images by it not being an attack, in the same way Vampiric Touch and Break Free is not an attack; they are skill checks and saving throws.They are not attack rolls, but they are attacks. One of the first errats for the CRB emphasized that these are separate things.
I really only concede this point because the book actually cites them as examples of attacks in the text. It otherwise would not be considered an attack since it is treated as a skill check and not an attack roll, which was the argument in the first place: Abilities and effects without attack rolls, or abilities and effects that don't trigger "hits" don't get affected by Mirror Images, which is incidentally why those shouldn't count anyway, even if it is an attack. You don't "hit" the creature when you trip, grab, or shove them, instead you succeed at the check made at the creature. "Hits" are only in reference to successful attack rolls.
Easy to understand natural language.
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I go with the rules in the simplest form. If it is an attack roll, mirror image works. If it is a save, it does not. I don't want to parse each spell to figure out how it interacts with mirror image.
PF1 Mirror Image explicitly doesn't work against Vampiric Touch, Fireball, or anything else that uses saving throws.
It did work against PF1's version of Vampiric Touch, which required a melee touch attack and didn't give a saving throw.