Incorporeal vs odd Breath Weapon


Rules Questions


I've got a Supernatural breath weapon that does Bludgeoning damage. Would this damage an incorporeal creature? I guess I'm not sure if its "magical" or not...?


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Incorporeal (Ex)

An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.

An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).

An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.

An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.

An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Perception checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.

Incorporeal can be affected by supernatural abilities, so I'm going to give you a "tentative yes".

If you're a Dragon Disciple or a Sorcerer with the Draconic Bloodline and the source of your Bludgeoning breath weapon comes from Astral, Etheric, or Sovereign bloodlines, then this is "definitive yes", your breath weapon would affect an incorporeal creature.

Can you link or quote your breath weapon?


I missed the part about "Supernatural" abilities, so that seems to clear it up.

Breath Weapon (Su)
A gashadokuro can breathe bone shards as a standard action.

Special Attacks breath weapon (30-ft. cone, 12d6 bludgeoning damage, Reflex DC 24 half, usable every 1d4 rounds), corpse consumption, swallow whole (6d6 bludgeoning damage, AC 20, 18 hp)

Trying to figure out if my one NPC can breath on his undead buddy and not hurt him...but looks like it will hurt him, for at least half damage. Good to know, thanks!


Gashadokuro

Yeah this ability will definitely harm the incorporeal, and yeah it'll cause half damage. If he saves, then this will only be 1/4 damage, so you might still want to do this if you think he can pass the Reflex save.


One other follow up...if the Breath Weapon is Supernatural, would it overcome DR/Magic? or does that have to be a magic weapon, specifically?


The bludgeoning damage this breath weapon causes will be affected by DR normally. Resistance shouldn't play a factor though.


Because the breath weapon is clearly called out as supernatural, that means it's magical in nature.

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Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)

Extraordinary abilities are non-magical. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training. Effects or areas that suppress or negate magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)
Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled but they cannot be counterspelled or used to counterspell.

Supernatural Abilities (Su)
Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities.

IMO, if the creature has DR/magic the breath weapon will bypass it. If it's anything else (except DR/bludgeoning) then it will be reduced.

However, due to incorporeal it will only take half damage because it's magic.

Liberty's Edge

Claxon wrote:
Because the breath weapon is clearly called out as supernatural, that means it's magical in nature.

There is a not perfectly clear FAQ for that.

FAQ wrote:

How does DR interact with magical effects that deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage?

Although the Bestiary definition of Damage Reduction (page 299) says "The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities," that's actually just referring to damage that isn't specifically called out as being of a particular type, such as fire damage or piercing damage. In other words, DR doesn't protect against "typeless damage" from magical attacks.
However, if a magical attack specifically mentions that it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, DR affects that damage normally, as if it were from a physical weapon. (Otherwise the magical attack might as well not have a damage type, as it would only interface with B/P/S damage in a very few corner cases, such as whether or not an ooze splits from that attack.)
For example, the ice storm spell deals 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage and 2d6 points of cold damage. If you cast ice storm at a group of zombies, the zombie's DR 5/slashing protects them against 5 points of the spell's bludgeoning damage. Their DR doesn't help them against the spell's cold damage because DR doesn't apply to energy attacks.

Bestiary FAQ

The question is if it means that the damage is bludgeoning+magic or only bludgeoning and the supernatural effect is simply to temporarily call the bone shards that are hurled by the breath weapon.

Do the mundane creatures summoned by a SU or SP ability deal magical damage? They don't, so we have a precedent for the effect of a SU ability not bypassing DR/magic or being incorporeal.

Personally, I would say that the bone shards are mundane projectiles, but it is an opinion. RAW isn't that clear.


a creature can have non magical natural attacks and a magical and or supernatural attack.

i see all breath weapons (or at least most, alchemical maybe not) as supernatural if they do not need a slot to hold them (hence alchemical might not be). the fact the creature can use X (or unlimited with a timed delay between) breaths a day and doesn't change mass or something physical when he does show me that that attack created the breath weapon magically\supernaturally and without it the breath would never had happened.

so unlike Diego i call that breath attack that created bone shards from nothing a magical source of damage and it bypass dr as both magical and it's weapon type damage. the same as any conjuration spell that bypass sr since the attacking projectile isn't a spell but spell effect, the damage is still magical (among other)


Gashadokuro CR13 NE Hugh undead.
Breath Weapon (special Abilities, Su) and Monster abilities, incorporeal

so as you can see a BrthWpn is going to do half dmg and reduced to quarter dmg with a save.
DR/magic won't be effective against most magical attacks. The DR interaction FAQ changes that as (dmg)B is called out thus in this case the DR/magic is effective.

tactically it's best if the incorporeal moves into a solid object before the breath weapon is released or the Breath Weapon user aims to miss their ally. If the incorporeal creature can cast or be the target of a spell then there are more options. Having a few Ghost Touch items might be practical. Some incorporeal creatures can possess a living creature and that puts them in a protective meat puppet. Evasion & Imp Evasion might be an option.


Dodge->Mobility->Spring Attack may be an interesting feat chain.

Liberty's Edge

Xavram5 wrote:
Trying to figure out if my one NPC can breath on his undead buddy and not hurt him...but looks like it will hurt him, for at least half damage. Good to know, thanks!

You are speaking of NPCs, so probably it is some kind of encounter in an adventure. You are the GM, so you can choose what best suit the tone of the encounter. As long as it isn't a way to make one or more PCs abilities useless, using what interpretation would make the encounter more interesting is a GM right and duty.

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