Is Trapfinding any good?

[Senko]

I think the issue is the trigger looking at the most recent posts. For most traps the trigger is somewhere else (assuming you intend to actually use that area). So I think there are 3 basic situations you might encounter . . .

Hazard (Thank you Dragonchess Player).
This is something you can't disarm only avoid. For example a spiked pit trap that is set up on a path so anyone approaching falls in and gets impaled. You can't disarm it only avoid that section of path as there is no way to disarm it even if it does have a trigger "stepping on the trap".

One/Two Way Trap
This is the more common kind of trap where someone has boobytrapped something that they intend to be using on a regular basis. Poison lock on a chest, poison darts in a corridor, etc. These areas would have a trigger e.g. incorrect opening or step on a particular tile. But they would also have some means of disarming the trap outside that area because someone has to use it. This might be a particular wall tile that needs to be pressed, a ornate scrollwork with a push latch to lock the poison pin in the chest or the like. These ones you can disarm from outside the trigger area if you spot them and you can do so safely because that's how its meant to work.

Trigger Traps
This can be either part of hazards or one way/two way traps where you don't know how to disarm them. In this case you are attempting to disarm the trigger not the trap. For example a floor tile that if stepped on will cause poison darts to be shot out of the walls. This is distinct from the one above because you are working directly on the trigger putting a chock under the tile so it wont depress, spiking the trapdoor so it can't swing open etc.

Hazards can't be disarmed because usually there wont be anyway to do so only avoid them. Said avoidance can be not going near them or it could be for example putting beams over a pit and knocking in the covering so everyone can see it. For other kinds of traps however while I agree the player doesn't need to know how their highly skilled X is disarming it they do need to know have they identified the "trigger" or the "means to disarm". Because they are very different things and usually the trigger is more dangerous to work on as it is part of the trap as in inside the area that the trap will hit and you could trigger it if you fail. Whereas if your trying to disarm the trap correctly unless your dealing with a highly paranoid person a failure there will not trigger the trap but you wont know you haven't disarmed it until you do hit the trigger.

Now this brings me to the point. Certain traps e.g. proximity go off when you enter a certain radius even if your flying. I don't think you can disarm these traps because to get to the "trigger" you have to enter the "proximity" and thus trigger it. These and similar traps are either (a) hazards you can only avoid not disarm or (b) require you to disarm the trap not the trigger. Which will involve the rules for the bypass system. Either locking it or pressing the switch however in this case you can't use disable device because you can't get close enough to disable it like you can with location/sound/visual which have ways to get close enough to work on the trigger. You need to locate the bypass system and disengage the trap properly.

[TxSam88]

Senko wrote:

Certain traps e.g. proximity go off when you enter a certain radius even if your flying. I don't think you can disarm these traps because to get to the "trigger" you have to enter the "proximity" and thus trigger it.

False, Any and all traps can be disarmed by a Disable Device check. it doesn't matter if you enter the proximity to disable it or not. No description on how it is done is needed. Hand wave it or whatever. If there is a trap and it has a Disarm DC, then it can be disarmed regardless of how it is triggered.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Yes TxSam88, that's what I've been saying. There's no RAW that says you have to enter a Proximity trigger in order to disable the trap, just the same as there's no RAW that says you have to enter a Location trigger in order to disable the trap.

The way you keep traps from being trivial is by having other things at play BESIDES the passive trap, or else by upping the DC's on the trap. The action of spotting an disabling a trap, by RAW, are a Perception check to spot it and a Disable Device to disable it. Period.

Oh, the Proximity trigger puts you 15' away from the burning hands shooter down the hall? Disable Device doesn't care. It doesn't care any more than it does if a 5' wide hallway funnels you through a Location trigger located 15' from the burning hands shooter down the hall.

Is Trapfinding good? Yes, it saves you resources you'd have to spend on spells or consumables, unless your campaign isn't going to feature a lot of traps.

If your GM is going to houserule that certain trigger types are going to require specialized feats and/or equipment to disable those traps, your GM should warn you of this up front b/c that will again be additional resources you'll have to expend.

[Azothath]

Disable Device skill, chart-> 1{full} to 2d4 rounds. It's not just Detect & Disarm instantly or as a move action, like many skill uses it takes TIME. It is not explicitly written that a failed disable device means that the disarming creature is caught/injured by the trap but in actual play that is the usual consequence. I'm illustrating the difference between a strict RAW reading and actual common implementation (and interpretation). There's also BYPASSING the trap.
The skill description has many terms (disable, disarm, sabotage, jam) and isn't specific about the details with complex traps.

There is a lot that's left in the GM's hands including the Disarm d20 roll. So while discussion is good I think the details of the situation have to be handled by the GM. At best there is some RAW Guidance. There IS a lot of flavor/creative text and it is going to vary with every GM as to exactly what that means. Sure, a basic trap without any description is a poorly described trap! Expect variance.

In many PFS1 scenarios traps come with more detailed descriptions and GM instructions than what you see in RAW. So the devil is in the details. Make sure to write down what happens on a failed attempt and if it can be tried again along with some details of how the trap can be disarmed or bypassed. That way with a more complete description and other given examples you can make sure the CR of your trap is okay.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Azothath sorry, I didn't mean to imply the actions happen instantly and thank you for calling that out. Yes, of course searching for and disabling a trap takes time which then leads back to my point about having a dynamic environment; if all traps are encountered with no time crunch in areas where "wandering monsters." patrols and such do not occur, of course disabling traps can seem trivial.

On the other hand if a trap obscures the path through a dungeon which is actively being swept by the residents to unalive intruders, taking 30 seconds to remove that trap could be a lethal decision. GM handling of the situation is up to interpretation.

Also, I don't run a lot of AP's or PFS scenarios so I didn't know that about their trap descriptions. I've said as much earlier in this thread. If there are clear rules as to what is needed to disable or bypass a trap and consequences of a failed roll in the source material by all means use them.

My only point was to say that the RAW that governs the finding and disabling of traps is in the skills, with "being clever" or the nature of bypassing traps largely situational based on who's playing the campaign. I think if there really is a lot left in the hands of the GM, I.E. the GM can say that in order to disable a Proximity trigger trap one must enter the warded area if they don't have the right feats/equipment, then the players should know to expect this up front.

Players make their PCs in order to do what they're built to do. If a player looks at the RAW of Disable Device and Perception and how they relate to traps, there's a reasonable expectation that building your Trapfinding PC around maxing out those skills ensures you'll be able to spot and disable traps. If, then, this PC is spotting traps with a certain kind of trigger that they have to detonate in some way b/c they didn't know to spend 70 GP on some Thieves' Tool Extenders, said player may be understandably frustrated not being able to do the thing their PC was built for.

[Azothath]

The RAW on the players side is rather generic. For the GM it is a situation that depends on the details written in the trap description. Otherwise there are some rough examples in RAW and you have to go to published scenarios for more detailed examples.

IMO this has been a lot of huffing and puffing over basically GM grey area and I decided to finally point that out when it seemed to get overly involved and try to turn it back to RAW and discussion of what do the terms mean and when do they apply.

I did point out *way above* that Traps are usually a small percentage of the challenges that PCs face so a focused trapfinder finds himself out of a job most of the time.

[Senko]

TxSam88 wrote:

Senko wrote:

Certain traps e.g. proximity go off when you enter a certain radius even if your flying. I don't think you can disarm these traps because to get to the "trigger" you have to enter the "proximity" and thus trigger it.

False, Any and all traps can be disarmed by a Disable Device check. it doesn't matter if you enter the proximity to disable it or not. No description on how it is done is needed. Hand wave it or whatever. If there is a trap and it has a Disarm DC, then it can be disarmed regardless of how it is triggered.

My point is this is when the rogues ranged legerdomain comes into its own as they can disarm the trap from a distance.

[SheepishEidolon]

Senko wrote:

I find myself reminded of Baldurs gate most traps when you spot them trigger a red "area" if your enter it you trigger the trap, if you stand next to it you can disarm it. However there was one trap in a maze that can't be disarmed and if you step on it you die. No save, no x damage you just get crushed between the ceiling and the floor.

Yeah, that crushing corridor was one of the worst sections of the game. You solved multiple encounters in the maze, got crushed all of a sudden and had to load a savegame that (potentially) threw you back to the beginning of the maze. It looked like it could be disarmed, just to crush the character in the process. I guess they wanted to drive home "this maze is deadly" and "beware of traps", but it was just horrible game design IMO.

Speaking of game design: If a player spent character options to be good at handling traps, I wouldn't undermine this with devious triggers. A dedicated trapfinder should always have a good chance to notice the trap before it triggers. If the player enjoys making up clever solutions, give them unique situations to deal with, but otherwise a roll should suffice.

If you want a trap to be smart and interesting, rather combine it with other threats.

[TxSam88]

Senko wrote:

TxSam88 wrote:

Senko wrote:

Certain traps e.g. proximity go off when you enter a certain radius even if your flying. I don't think you can disarm these traps because to get to the "trigger" you have to enter the "proximity" and thus trigger it.

False, Any and all traps can be disarmed by a Disable Device check. it doesn't matter if you enter the proximity to disable it or not. No description on how it is done is needed. Hand wave it or whatever. If there is a trap and it has a Disarm DC, then it can be disarmed regardless of how it is triggered.

My point is this is when the rogues ranged legerdomain comes into its own as they can disarm the trap from a distance.

ranged legerdemain is a failsafe. Useful in the fact that you won't be in the area of affect _IF_ you fail the disable device check and thusly set off the trap. However, it's not required to be able to disable a trap, as all traps can be disabled without setting them off.

[Kasoh]

TxSam88 wrote:

Senko wrote:

TxSam88 wrote:

Senko wrote:

Certain traps e.g. proximity go off when you enter a certain radius even if your flying. I don't think you can disarm these traps because to get to the "trigger" you have to enter the "proximity" and thus trigger it.

False, Any and all traps can be disarmed by a Disable Device check. it doesn't matter if you enter the proximity to disable it or not. No description on how it is done is needed. Hand wave it or whatever. If there is a trap and it has a Disarm DC, then it can be disarmed regardless of how it is triggered.

My point is this is when the rogues ranged legerdomain comes into its own as they can disarm the trap from a distance.

ranged legerdemain is a failsafe. Useful in the fact that you won't be in the area of affect _IF_ you fail the disable device check and thusly set off the trap. However, it's not required to be able to disable a trap, as all traps can be disabled without setting them off.

It also comes into play with non trap utility, like opening animal cages while someone else is standing next to them and etc.

[thorin001]

Senko wrote:

TxSam88 wrote:

Senko wrote:

Certain traps e.g. proximity go off when you enter a certain radius even if your flying. I don't think you can disarm these traps because to get to the "trigger" you have to enter the "proximity" and thus trigger it.

False, Any and all traps can be disarmed by a Disable Device check. it doesn't matter if you enter the proximity to disable it or not. No description on how it is done is needed. Hand wave it or whatever. If there is a trap and it has a Disarm DC, then it can be disarmed regardless of how it is triggered.

My point is this is when the rogues ranged legerdomain comes into its own as they can disarm the trap from a distance.

When do rogues get ranged legerdemain?

[Kasoh]

thorin001 wrote:

Senko wrote:

TxSam88 wrote:

Senko wrote:

Certain traps e.g. proximity go off when you enter a certain radius even if your flying. I don't think you can disarm these traps because to get to the "trigger" you have to enter the "proximity" and thus trigger it.

False, Any and all traps can be disarmed by a Disable Device check. it doesn't matter if you enter the proximity to disable it or not. No description on how it is done is needed. Hand wave it or whatever. If there is a trap and it has a Disarm DC, then it can be disarmed regardless of how it is triggered.

My point is this is when the rogues ranged legerdomain comes into its own as they can disarm the trap from a distance.

When do rogues get ranged legerdemain?

Its a class feature of the Arcane Trickster prestige class. There's also Ranged Disable, a ranged weapon feat that does something similar. carnivalist rogue lets you use a familiar to make Disable Device checks, and there's a reading of the Pilfering Hand spell that might let it work on traps.

[Temperans]

There is also Magic Trick (Mage Hand), where if you have Deft Hands feat (+2 on disable and slight of hand) you can do disable and slight of hand in the range of your mage hand.

Equipment Trick (Thieves Tools), which lets you do the same but with a DC penalty and weight limit. But costs no extra feats.

Hand's Autonomy can do it at a -4 penalty.

Thieves tool extenders that give you reach with them but a -4 penalty.

Brass Spiders (2,500 gp) can be used 1/day to use disable device up to 15ft away without penalty. When not active can be used as masterwork tools.

**************

So yeah ranged disable is a thing that exists prominently in the game outside of Range Legerdemain, not counting other classes potentially getting their own ways to do it (Ex: Telekineticist).