Dimensional Dervish and Cage Enemy interaction


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

Howdy. I'm playing a blink dog inspired custom race in a home game and we started doing mythic fights. Since I have dimension door at will, I've gone into the dimensional dervish feat tree. Well, the GM thinks he knows how to kill my character pretty efficient and that's the cage enemy path ability plus a reach weapon.
Pretty much nullifies everything I've built my character to do, as I've sunk most of my resources into movement speed, a non reach melee weapon, and the DD feat train.

That all said, what I'm truly curious to is if dimensional dervish or dimension door count as movement out of a square for the cage enemy ability. GM says yes because teleportation is movent and it's a mythic ability so tough cookies and I say no because teleportation is not movement according to the magic rules. I couldn't find confirmation either way on the forums, so I figured I should ask with this specific situation in mind.

Cage Enemy (Ex)

Spoiler:
You can pin enemies foolish enough to face you. As an immediate action, you can expend one use of mythic power to hinder opponents until the end of your next turn. When this ability is active, any creature moving out of one of your threatened squares, even when making a 5-foot step or using a form of movement that doesn’t usually provoke attacks of opportunity, provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If your attack of opportunity hits and deals damage, the creature remains in its current space and its movement ends. Alternatively, you can expend one use of mythic power as part of a charge. If the charge attack hits, the target can’t move itself from its space until the beginning of your next turn (though others can move the creature).

Dimensional Dervish

Spoiler:
You teleport with a mere thought, savaging your opponents as you flash in and out of reality.

Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: You can take a full-attack action, activating abundant step or casting dimension door as a swift action. If you do, you can teleport up to twice your speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability), dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack. You must teleport at least 5 feet each time you teleport.

Special: A monk can use additional points from his ki pool to increase his speed before determining the total speed for this teleportation.


Dimension Door
Spoiler:
Description
You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired—whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn't exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.

If you arrive in a place that is already occupied by a solid body, you and each creature traveling with you take 1d6 points of damage and are shunted to a random open space on a suitable surface within 100 feet of the intended location.

If there is no free space within 100 feet, you and each creature traveling with you take an additional 2d6 points of damage and are shunted to a free space within 1,000 feet. If there is no free space within 1,000 feet, you and each creature travelling with you take an additional 4d6 points of damage and the spell simply fails.

The Exchange

I would say that teleportation is “a form of movement that doesn’t usually provoke.”

It sounds like the GM has thrown an encounter at you specifically designed to negate your (very focused) build. While that’s not cool if he’s doing it constantly, it’s fairly common for this to occur at least once to each character in a long-running campaign. It gives the players a chance to think outside the box. “What can I do when my main schtick is negated?”


You have to have Disruptive/Spellbreaker/Teleport Tactician (and 10 levels of Fighter) to make AoO against someone teleporting.


Belafon wrote:

I would say that teleportation is “a form of movement that doesn’t usually provoke.”

It sounds like the GM has thrown an encounter at you specifically designed to negate your (very focused) build. While that’s not cool if he’s doing it constantly, it’s fairly common for this to occur at least once to each character in a long-running campaign. It gives the players a chance to think outside the box. “What can I do when my main schtick is negated?”

total jerk move by any GM. GM's should not metagame in any form or fashion. A GM's story should be preplanned and proactive to the players and their character builds, not reactive.

Liberty's Edge

Ah thanks voodist, good to hear there is a way for teleportation to provoke, means he's technically right since it is possible and all that. I'll be careful to not mention that. If nothing else I still got normal melee stuff.

As for your comment Sam, I should note that he only really does that kinda stuff when the enemy has time to prepare. Like around level five we were taking out this crime lord's stuff and we found his house, and went to kill em like the goodie two shoes we are, and he had dimensional anchor on his house to prevent teleporting in the place. Makes sense he'd have that kinda thing, since he knew we were coming and he's a crime lord with hella money.

Now I just need to know if me being hit causes me to lose the rest of my attacks since I can't move but I gotta move five feet between each attack...

Shadow Lodge

TxSam88 wrote:
Belafon wrote:

I would say that teleportation is “a form of movement that doesn’t usually provoke.”

It sounds like the GM has thrown an encounter at you specifically designed to negate your (very focused) build. While that’s not cool if he’s doing it constantly, it’s fairly common for this to occur at least once to each character in a long-running campaign. It gives the players a chance to think outside the box. “What can I do when my main schtick is negated?”

total jerk move by any GM. GM's should not metagame in any form or fashion. A GM's story should be preplanned and proactive to the players and their character builds, not reactive.

To be fair, if anything can justify metagaming, a mythic character with Dimension Dervish 'at will' probably would...


Teleportation is not movement in the sense that cage enemy is talking about, IMO. The conjuration (teleportation) rules pretty carefully avoid ever calling it movement; instead they use 'transport'.

Consider also that you cannot take a 5 foot step if you use any kind of movement, but you can in a round where you cast teleport or dimension door (as long as you don't also do a normal move).

I think that second thing pretty definitively means teleporting is not movement. The clause in Cage Enemy is there to stop you from using, for example, the withdraw action, Acrobatics, or Spring Attack to avoid the attack.


~Rat~Rat~Rat~Rat~Rat~Rat~Rat~ wrote:

Howdy. I'm playing a blink dog inspired custom race in a home game and we started doing mythic fights...

... I'm truly curious to is if dimensional dervish or dimension door count as movement out of a square for the cage enemy ability...

Cage Enemy3rd Tier MYTHIC Guardian class ability

Dimensional Dervish(Feat)

Dimension Door(Spell)

{trivial edits}

So you are talking about three different things, two of which have teleport as a thematic connection. Mythic takes it where you will need GM oversight as it's gone into the realm of over-the-top dramatic roleplaying. The movement in the description is general and IMO teleport would qualify IFF it's part of movement(but not Dim Door as that's a spell and the caster's 'movement' could already be ended when it started casting (which provokes anyway)). Again my hedge is that it's Mythic so it's really based on your home GM's determination for drama.

as a Feat Dim Dervish is a Full Attack so the creature is presumed to be expending movement and dim hopping as it goes through it's attack sequence. So Cage Enemy could hinder movement. The same would be true for Dimensional Slide Class ability (snagged by that 5ft step).

Dim Door is a spell and NOT movement(in the sense of speed or flight) AND it ends the casters action sequence for the round. Different things. IMO a PC needs to make a spellcraft check to know this kind of detail before knowing whether it will work or not.


The rules about the movement from Dimensional Dervish are ambiguous and pretty gray about how this gets treated, but this movement can be thought of as both movement as a "special type of charge" and teleportation at the same time. So, given that this is not very well defined, your GM is correct either way he treats this.

So, I would metagame your GM back and put up Mirror Image and/or Displacement to negate the damage from the Attack of Opportunity, because if it causes no damage then you don't get your movement stopped. This is cheap and easy if you get them on Wands.

An expensive but hard counter to this would be taking 2 levels of Rogue for Slow Reactions and take Dimensional Savant so you can flank with yourself.


Dimensional Assault allows you to make a charge while teleporting. Charging is considered movement so it stands to reason using dimensional dervish would also be considered movement. Several off the feats in this chain also reference your speed. That is another indication that using these feats should be considered movement.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Dimensional Assault allows you to make a charge while teleporting. Charging is considered movement so it stands to reason using dimensional dervish would also be considered movement. Several off the feats in this chain also reference your speed. That is another indication that using these feats should be considered movement.

"You can take a full-attack action, activating abundant step or casting dimension door as a swift action. If you do, you can teleport up to twice your speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability), dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack. You must teleport at least 5 feet each time you teleport."

Nope... it simply says you can teleport up to twice your speed instead of the normal amount the spell allows. Teleport. Not move.

It takes Fighter-specific feats to make AoO against teleporting enemies. Mythic or not, without those aforementioned Disruptive/Spellbreaker/Teleport Tactician feats... dude can't do $#!+ against teleportation. Teleportation is NOT movement.

"Teleportation: a teleportation spell transports one or more creatures or objects a great distance. The most powerful of these spells can cross planar boundaries. Unlike summoning spells, the transportation is (unless otherwise noted) one-way and not dispellable.

Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. Anything that blocks astral travel also blocks teleportation."

"Movement
There are three movement scales, as follows:

Tactical, for combat, measured in feet (or 5-foot squares) per round.
Local, for exploring an area, measured in feet per minute.
Overland, for getting from place to place, measured in miles per hour or miles per day."


This is exactly why my Arcane Dervish Bard took Teleport Tactician at level 11 instead of Discordant Voice (which had to wait until level 13). It is a very rare opportunity to pick up said Teleport Tactician without being a big dumb Fighter. Using a Longspear by default, I can pretty much protect my entire party from teleporting enemies [if the need arises].

This is also exactly why I build enemy NPC's (and monsters) with the Dimensional Savant/Maneuver feat chain... they are extremely hard to counter if you do not happen to have Teleport Tactician. It's also why I give pretty much every one of my big dumb Fighter NPC's (enemy and friendly) the Teleport Tactician feat chain... most any NPC that has the ability to count as Fighter levels for the purposes of feats will have these [Teleport Tactician], as well.

It's that big of a deal [to me].

The Combat Stamina trick is pretty fun... anyone hit by an AoO granted by Teleport Tactician is Dazed for 1rnd (Fortitude save to negate the Daze effect is 10+BAB).

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