In PF1, the whole thing of players buying wands of 1st level cure spells and spam healing was never a problem for me. Why? Because I didn't let them treat towns like their own Amazon marketplace.
In the GMG, there are basically 3 ways of handling treasure in the suggestions. I use about halfway between 2 & 3. Magic is rare and wonderful. Not to say you just can't buy things. But I just don't let them treat the Core Rulebook as a catalog to shop from.
"Hey, shopkeeper! Do you have any more +3 greater striking returning silver daggers in there? And throw in another Type iv bag while you're at it!"
After all, why didn't Sauron just go into town and buy another One Ring?
I play like the PCs are the heroes of the storybook. Not one group of 10,000 other groups of wizard, fighter, rogue walking around.
How do a lot of y'all play it? I like to have special items be found in treasure hoards. But I will make a list of items that can be found in town. And tell the players they can find anything on this list.
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Depends on the needs of the narrative, so each campaign differs.
I've had some where resources are slim, and I'll outright advise against playing a Wizard or other "civilization dependent" build, including those built around uncommon weapons. Sure they'd find enough magic, and gain access to other magic resources, but not like a buffet.
Or there might be common low-level magic, especially items that would be of utility to non-heroic consumers, but heroic, superior items would have to be wrested from enemies or ancient hoards.
That said, I tend toward published adventures nowadays where expectations (and in some cases the difficulty and/or story obstacles) assume an amount of preparation available to PCs who have tuned their equipment. Going by the default also makes informing players' expectations easier.
My players have a well-established habit of not caring about loot. If they find treasure, they often give it back to the original owners or to the needy. Only an item that fits their character's theme, such as a sturdy steel shield for the defense-oriented champion, will be kept.
To further complicate the issue, I am converting the 2017 PF1 adventure path Ironfang Invasion to PF2 rules. The first module begins with the party escaping the invasion and hiding and sheltering refugees in the forest. They had no market--besides a single Darklands merchant--until they reached the city of Longshadow in the 3rd module at 9th level. Their level-appropriate items came from looting the commanders of Ironfang squadrons and discovering a few treasure troves in a Darkland cave or abandoned fort or giant spider's lair. Since I had to convert PF1 treasure to PF2 treasure and wanted the PCs to want the treasure, I asked the players for a wish list of items and used what seemed plausible. The weapons and armor of the regular Ironfang soldiers they gave to 1st-level villagers for their own defense.
Before reaching Longshadow the party had passed up a change to acquire a greater Dancing Scarf, which I had thought one of the rogues would like, because they did not want to steal it from a bear. Thus, my message about shopping in Longshadow said,
Longshadow is a city of 4000. The Pathfinder 1st Edition stat block for its city says that any magic item worth 260 gp (PF2 prices) or less can be found in its marketplaces, and the upper limit on magic items is 1500 gp. This means you can find any permanent magic item of 6th level or less, and consumable magic items of 10th level or less. Permanent magic items of 7th level to 11th level have a random chance of being available. My math tells me the chances ought to be 40% for 7th, 30% for 8th, 20% for 9th, 15% for 9th, 10% for 10th, and 5% for 11th.
A Dancing Scarf (item 3) costs 60 gp. A greater Dancing Scarf (item 9), like Patchy the Bear has, costs 650 gp. Amy had to roll 18, 19, or 20 for Longshadow's market to have a greater Dancing Scarf for sale. She rolled 17. The party will have to settle for a regular Dancing Scarf (https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=428).
However, since the party had become Chernasardo Rangers, the official protectors of the country of Nirmathas, they refrained from acting like mercenary adventurers in the market of Longshadow. They did not go on a shopping spree until they gained a charter from the mayor to improve the city's defenses. And then they purchased supplies and hired workers to improve the city's walls and gates.
They never bought a Dancing Scarf.
Depends on the needs of the narrative, so each campaign differs.
The needs of the narrative were the deciding factor this Friday's game session. At 15th level they were 50 miles away from Longshadow and wanted to shop again. The full tale is in my Kineticist Playtest notes.
The next morning, the party decided--with hints from the GM who had searched Archives of Nethys for suitable magic items--that a Mirror of Sleeping Vigil would be a suitable gift for Duchess Naphexi. Stormdancer cast a 6th-level Tree Stride to go shopping by herself, with all the party funds of 1475 gp, at Longshadow 50 miles away. Since the mirror was only 7th level, the shops at Longshadow had one. Stormdancer also found 5 vials of moderate antiplague and two scrolls of Remove Curse. The wand that Amelia had delivered had been the only Wand or Remove Curse in the city.
Though I had decided last year that Longshadow had only 6th-level common items readily available with anything higher requiring a roll, these particular 7th-level items, the uncommon Mirror of Sleeping Vigil and the common Wand of Remove Cure, happened to be available because of plot convenience, but only one each. For a 15th-level party, I easily gloss over the difference between 6th level and 7th level.
My PF1 Iron Gods campaign, Iron Gods among Scientists, had a different dynamic. The players wanted to play with the alien high technology of the Numeria setting, so half of them made technological crafters. They did not want to buy high-level items; instead, they wanted to make them. That adventure path had very little time pressure, so between modules they took two months to craft new gear. My GMPC Val Baine was their crafting assistant and their accountant, keeping track of materials and inventory for them. I am still their inventory manager as the GM in Ironfang Invasion, despite not having a GMPC in this campaign, telling them what they have forgotten in their bags of holding.
Yea. Making low-level stuff common isn't too bad. That's how Eberron is. Low-level magic is very common. Everburning lanterns on every street. But high level magic is stuff of legend.
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If they can afford it and are in a place that would have the market (most major cities), then they can buy it. As the GM, I already have the power to determine how much money they earn and find at any time. Adding extra caveats or obstacles seems punishing to the players.
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Clw spam never bothered me because it was a major deterrent for 15 min adventures. Player were more apt to keep going if they could have full hp. Really, it was a win/win. 2e doubles down my making it even easier to keep HP topped off and now I rarely see people trying to rest before they've done 3 reasource eating challenges, it's pretty great.
In my game, shops commonly stock consumables up to the town's level, and permanents up to level - 2. If you want higher level, or uncommon/rare items, you need to use downtime to gather info to find a buyer, and request to arrange a purchase, or they can be crafted by a pc. Treasure hordes often carry at level or level-1 loot, making them the most reliable source of the best gear
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In PF1, the whole thing of players buying wands of 1st level cure spells and spam healing was never a problem for me. Why? Because I didn't let them treat towns like their own Amazon marketplace.
In the GMG, there are basically 3 ways of handling treasure in the suggestions. I use about halfway between 2 & 3. Magic is rare and wonderful. Not to say you just can't buy things. But I just don't let them treat the Core Rulebook as a catalog to shop from.
"Hey, shopkeeper! Do you have any more +3 greater striking returning silver daggers in there? And throw in another Type iv bag while you're at it!"
After all, why didn't Sauron just go into town and buy another One Ring?
I play like the PCs are the heroes of the storybook. Not one group of 10,000 other groups of wizard, fighter, rogue walking around.How do a lot of y'all play it? I like to have special items be found in treasure hoards. But I will make a list of items that can be found in town. And tell the players they can find anything on this list.
Players have specific things in mind for their characters, and generally speaking letting them have most items (not all, and certainly not unique items, like Sauron's One Ring) without restriction is how I prefer to run games.
Actually, even further when I GM Automatic Bonus Progression is always used, so it reduces the essential items to basically nothing.
In PF2, you don't have to worry about spaming wands, but in PF1 it was a fault of the system. It was BS to relegate someone's role to playing a healing focused character unless that's what they wanted to play. And even if you did focus, it wasn't a very effective use of your spell slot compared to the damage enemies would deal. PF2 has actually effective heal skill that if you pick up the skill feats can sustain a party without magical healing (at least for the most part).
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Further, if CLW spam bothered you then just put some sort of time limit on the players to force them to continue on without spending 10 minutes regaining the hit points of the party.
Honestly, one of the best mechanics of Starfinder is "here's a pile of temporary hit points (stamina) and you can regenerate them all with 10 minutes of rest".
I still wish PF2 would have went more down that route (halve HP but it's converted to stamnina) while also making easy healing a thing. Although obviously it would need to be tweaked since you can regen stamina, healing shouldn't be required as much.
Further, if CLW spam bothered you then just put some sort of time limit on the players to force them to continue on without spending 10 minutes regaining the hit points of the party.
Honestly, one of the best mechanics of Starfinder is "here's a pile of temporary hit points (stamina) and you can regenerate them all with 10 minutes of rest".
I still wish PF2 would have went more down that route (halve HP but it's converted to stamnina) while also making easy healing a thing. Although obviously it would need to be tweaked since you can regen stamina, healing shouldn't be required as much.
GMG has stamina rules, and tbh I've considered running them. The main thing is I worry it will be adding another pool to track when some of my players already struggle with resource management. Tbh, the treat wounds skill action and focus healing already tends to handle this
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GMG has stamina rules, and tbh I've considered running them. The main thing is I worry it will be adding another pool to track when some of my players already struggle with resource management. Tbh, the treat wounds skill action and focus healing already tends to handle thisFurther, if CLW spam bothered you then just put some sort of time limit on the players to force them to continue on without spending 10 minutes regaining the hit points of the party.
Honestly, one of the best mechanics of Starfinder is "here's a pile of temporary hit points (stamina) and you can regenerate them all with 10 minutes of rest".
I still wish PF2 would have went more down that route (halve HP but it's converted to stamnina) while also making easy healing a thing. Although obviously it would need to be tweaked since you can regen stamina, healing shouldn't be required as much.
I did not realize that optional rules existed for this. Thanks for the FYI.
In PF1, the whole thing of players buying wands of 1st level cure spells and spam healing was never a problem for me. Why? Because I didn't let them treat towns like their own Amazon marketplace.
In the GMG, there are basically 3 ways of handling treasure in the suggestions. I use about halfway between 2 & 3. Magic is rare and wonderful. Not to say you just can't buy things. But I just don't let them treat the Core Rulebook as a catalog to shop from.
"Hey, shopkeeper! Do you have any more +3 greater striking returning silver daggers in there? And throw in another Type iv bag while you're at it!"
After all, why didn't Sauron just go into town and buy another One Ring?
I play like the PCs are the heroes of the storybook. Not one group of 10,000 other groups of wizard, fighter, rogue walking around.How do a lot of y'all play it? I like to have special items be found in treasure hoards. But I will make a list of items that can be found in town. And tell the players they can find anything on this list.
Returning to this topic, could use some limited ABP like
I intent to do, here what is written (open the link for the full):My idea is then use ONLY the Automatic Bonus Progression Devastating attacks, the reason, balance for martials. If we notice the cantrips and focus spells upscales by their own, just like monsters damage even using their natural weapon attacks. Making the martial characters depending so much of items is not fair for them, and makes the game something more like a Diablo, instead a RPG. I can't think about a 18th level character depending so much of the weapon it uses, instead its own capabilities.
In addition, eliminate all the runes, and convert them into item capabilities. It is the same but cannot be transferred, as now there is no need to have that striking fundamental rune to work. Preserve all the capabilities but for the striking one just use the greater of it or your own Devastating attacks, so getting a weapon with striking is for advancing the capability to your level (i.e. getting a striking weapon at level 3, later at level 4 you get it by your own capability).
So a weapon +2 striking greater flaming, could be a nice and unique treasure to get from a tough fight to level 9-10th characters (maybe from an Adult White Dragon), granting you an extra damage die before you get it naturally at level 12th. The wearer is going to appreciate it for sure a lot!
So get from ABP what you think is mandatory for players to even be able to advance, and leave the remaining to items.
Have made some calculations (if you read my message I intent to apply only the Devastating attacks at first to try), and seems that the Potency ones are not mandatory, well you lose some accuracy, but that should be achieved with items. If you want to restrict the magical ones, introduce the high quality (GMG) and special material ones for providing bonuses, but notice they are normal damage for some creature resistances.
When creating loot, a way for using the between 2 and 3 magical items restriction, could be set limits for both high quality and magical items, i.e. for a d% (percentage die roll) could use the suggested at 2 3/4, so 25% for quality items (with the corresponding bonus), and lesser to be magical (i.e. 10%), so you roll d%, if greater than 25 is a normal item, if 11-25 is a high quality, if 1-10 is a magical item.
Notice that if you use the base high quality items from tables 4-14 and 4-15 instead those of tables 4-16 and 4-17, they don't have striking (weapons) or resilient (armors), but can have property "runes" (if you read my message, I suggest to replace runes by non-tranferable capabilities embedded into the items (this is, the classical way)).
I recommend to use then the base high quality ones (tables 4-14 and 4-15) if not there would be few difference between these ones and a true magical item. And put always the striking and resilient capabilities into the magical ones, to make a difference for those more rare items.
Replacing runes by embedded capabilities makes each item interesting by itself. I.e. if you found a weapon +1 flaming, and later a weapon +2 with no properties, you could prefer to use your old and trusty +1 flaming even at higher levels.
Less clear is for Wands and Staves, as they are magical, but there are no corresponding high quality ones and can only be used limited times per day. And if the loot items are too unbalanced for martials (as HQ items grant bonus in any case), casters could feel bad. A solution could be to apply some higher like 25% for Wands and 15-20% for Staves.
Also, do not restrict consumables (maybe some exception but that is at your discretion) but maybe some the Rare ones. IMHO is a nice way to invest money and they have the cost justified as they can be used only once. It is very satisfactory for players to save them and use at the proper time. Just limit the stock at shops, but for the loot could use what is expected.
I forgot, for other items use (or invent) the bonus for the HQ version, i.e. for the Cloak of Elvenkind grant the skill bonus but not the magical part (invisibility).