|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One thing is how do the clerics of Asmodedus have spells. Sine the queen outlaws slavery and that is against Asmodedus edicts, it’s his anathema to free a slave, singular. So should they not all be fallen clerics?Asmodeus' anathema has changed with the remaster. The new anathema are:
break a contract, share power with the weak, insult Asmodeus by showing mercy to your enemies.
Even if that wasn't the case, Asmodeus is capable of recognizing the spirit of the law, and in particular that de jure freedom coupled with de facto dependence and subjugation in reality is no freedom at all.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Even if that wasn't the case, Asmodeus is capable of recognizing the spirit of the law, and in particular that de jure freedom coupled with de facto dependence and subjugation in reality is no freedom at all.One thing is how do the clerics of Asmodedus have spells. Sine the queen outlaws slavery and that is against Asmodedus edicts, it’s his anathema to free a slave, singular. So should they not all be fallen clerics?Asmodeus' anathema has changed with the remaster. The new anathema are:
break a contract, share power with the weak, insult Asmodeus by showing mercy to your enemies.
I would also note that the "abolition" of slavery in Cheliax was a unilateral decision imposed top-down by the nation's reigning monarch.
Even momentarily ignoring the remaster's shift in Asmodeus' edicts/anathema, his Chelaxian clergy didn't "free" whatever slaves they held - Queen Abrogail did.
Even momentarily ignoring the remaster's shift in Asmodeus' edicts/anathema, his Chelaxian clergy didn't "free" whatever slaves they held - Queen Abrogail did.
And Thrune herself doesn't get spells from Asmodeus, since she's a sorcerer. Probably her relationship with the Dark Prince is different from most people's, and she gets to push back more than "random clerics" since she speaks for the state, and what Asmodeus wants really is less "Abrogail Thrune's soul" and more to get the living monarch to rely more on more to Hell to solve whatever problems that come up so as to set the hooks on the entire country better.
Even momentarily ignoring the remaster's shift in Asmodeus' edicts/anathema, his Chelaxian clergy didn't "free" whatever slaves they held - Queen Abrogail did.And Thrune herself doesn't get spells from Asmodeus, since she's a sorcerer. Probably her relationship with the Dark Prince is different from most people's, and she gets to push back more than "random clerics" since she speaks for the state, and what Asmodeus wants really is less "Abrogail Thrune's soul" and more to get the living monarch to rely more on more to Hell to solve whatever problems that come up so as to set the hooks on the entire country better.
He doesn't need to work to have Abrogail's soul, her soul is His by the right of the Chelish Covenant.
He doesn't need to work to have Abrogail's soul, her soul is His by the right of the Chelish Covenant.
I suspect that Asmodeus expects that Abrogail is going to try to wriggle out of her part of the contract somehow, so there's a friendly game of cat and mouse there.
Like Hell's Rebels had the thing where Barzilai wanted to become a Genius Loci in order to live forever, and he's someone the Thrunes thought was way to into the whole "Asmodeus" thing.
|
|
What do you think happened to chelish sailors and soldiers from kintargo and the rest of Ravounel? Would the duchies rebellion have affected them?
The Chelish Army's presence in Ravounel was negligible. The only time it showed up in Hell's Rebels was at Menador Keep, which apparently is not even in Ravounel proper but is over the border in the Archduchy of Menador. At one time it manned the penal colony at Deepmar, but that's long gone by 4715. The only other relevant place it would reasonably be is a border checkpoint on the Night Road west of Thrune's Chance in Nidal, and since Nidal is friendly that garrison is bound to be small -- two or three dozen strong at most, about the size of the internal checkpoint garrison at Menador Keep. Thrune kept order in Kintargo (or, rather, failed to do so) by co-opting the local dottari, hiring Order of the Rack mercenaries, and benignly neglecting the Black Hundredist Chelish Citizens Group as they terrorized the people. And he either never bothered or never got the chance to start administering the countryside.
So much for the Army. The only time the Chelish Navy shows up in the Adventure Path is when the captain and crew of Scourge of Belial defect to the rebellion. Presumably they cosplay Aurora at some point and are considered traitors to Cheliax who will be executed if they ever return. Beyond that, the Chelish Navy is only brought up as a distant threat to keep at bay, by allying with Vyre and Acisazi. The nearest permanent large formation we know about is the blockading squadron off Pezzack.
Repatriating Chelish officers and enlisted to Cheliax, and repatriating Ravounel officers and enlisted from Cheliax, is apparently so unimportant a topic that it's not even written up as a bone of contention at the Oakrib Inn conference. That being the case, and given the "revolution's" extremely minimal disruption of Ravounel's social or institutional status quo, I believe that Chelish soldiers either were permitted to go home of their own accord or to join Ravounel's armed forces (if this is not a popular militia, I will be even more disappointed in the place than I already am) or to retire to civilian life somewhere in Ravounel. Meanwhile, that Cheliax simply refused to return any Ravounel citizens who had a military commission and wasn't able to make good their own defection like Sargaeta and crew, and that Ravounel dropped the subject because it was too weak to do anything else, while never formally surrendering these people's citizenship in case the opportunity to capitalize on it ever arises.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Like among the many favorable circumstances that combined to Ravounel's independence are:
1) Ravounel is isolated by a mountain range and is thus difficult to attack over land, unless you're Nidal (which is an isolationist state)
2) Ravounel's sea border is outside the arch of Aroden and most of the contries that have access to the Arcadian sea without going through the arch are not naval powers.
3) The Chelish navy recently lost an entire fleet in the Shackles due to some ill-considered adventurism from a younger Thrune trying to make a name for themselves. Given that Andoran is Cheliax's main rival, and Andoran has naval superiority they're not inclined to risk ships for anything foolish in the near future.
4) Cheliax was busy at the time fending off the Glorious Reclamation, and keeping Westcrown is a lot more important for Cheliax than keeping Kintargo.
5) Legally Ravounel was in the right RE: Independence, which only really matters because of 1-4.
It's unlikely Cheliax was devoting many resources to the administration of Ravounel, and now they are devoting significantly less.
|
|
It's unlikely Cheliax was devoting many resources to the administration of Ravounel, and now they are devoting significantly less.
Sure. But at least part of Beckett's question, as I read it, was about Ravounel citizens who had "joined" the Chelish Army and Navy before the revolution, and were still enlisted and deployed outside of Ravounel at the time of independence. Are they still Ravounel citizens? If so, what efforts, if any, has the government made to repatriate them?
Given that no hay at all was made of such people during the Oakrib Inn conference, I suspect the answer to the second question is "none," regardless of what the answer to the first is. Whether because there are too few such people to worry about, or because Ravounel knows it has no leverage to stand on its rights, or both.
I would assume that a large portion of Ravouneli soldiers and sailors were stationed on ships in on the Kintargo side of the Arch of Aroden, and those ships were likely staffed almost entirely with Ravouneli crew.
Like I don't think it's normal in a fantasy world to take soldiers from Ravounel and station then near Isger or vice versa. Garrisons largely stay close to their homes during nominal peacetime, since that's the easiest way to keep them fed.
If there was a particular Ravouneli officer who climbed the ladder to be stationed elsewhere, the independence of their homeland was assuredly politically inconvenient for them and they were expected to declare their allegiance to Cheliax and will always be looked at with more suspicion than before.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would assume that a large portion of Ravouneli soldiers and sailors were stationed on ships in on the Kintargo side of the Arch of Aroden, and those ships were likely staffed almost entirely with Ravouneli crew.
Like I don't think it's normal in a fantasy world to take soldiers from Ravounel and station then near Isger or vice versa. Garrisons largely stay close to their homes during nominal peacetime, since that's the easiest way to keep them fed.
If there was a particular Ravouneli officer who climbed the ladder to be stationed elsewhere, the independence of their homeland was assuredly politically inconvenient for them and they were expected to declare their allegiance to Cheliax and will always be looked at with more suspicion than before.
Wouldn't it be in Thrune's interests for their soldiers to be moved around. So the Isgeri are stationed in Ravounel before the revolution and vice versa so they don't grow loyal to the region of their birth? This is a common tactic of empires after all.
|
|
I would assume that a large portion of Ravouneli soldiers and sailors were stationed on ships in on the Kintargo side of the Arch of Aroden, and those ships were likely staffed almost entirely with Ravouneli crew.
I won't repeat vyshan's very correct point, but the above is also an odd assumption to make, for two reasons. First, the only ship of the Chelish navy that actually features in Hell's Rebels is Scourge of Belial, which is notably not crewed or officered by any Ravounels at all. Second, the major Chelish fleet stationed west of the Arch of Aroden is the Pezzack blockade squadron under Sawndannac. There has been no mention made of defections from the latter, or otherwise degradation in its effectiveness (or, indeed, any movement toward resolution of the town's dual power, which ought to be precarious and not stable over more than a decade, in either direction). If it were crewed or officered disproportionately by Ravounels, you'd expect some degradation in cohesion as their country is bith nearby and theoretically opposed to their mission.
So either Ravounels were not well represented in the fleet before independence (which would square with the government's disinterest in repatriating them), or they are stationed in far-flung ports whence the government is unable to repatriate them, or both.
One thing I noticed that is a plot point in a number of books is that Cheliax and Andoran are gearing up for war. Part of the background tension in Wardens after all is that there is a high demand of wood throughout Andoran to support preparing for war, mostly ships but also i presume spears, and bows.
I wonder what Cheliax is doing? I presume much of the same?
I presume that till either Battle Cry or the War of Immortals we won't learn if this cold war turns hot or not.
Like the presumed reason Cheliax and Andoran aren't going to go to war is "The threat Tar-Baphon poses to all mortal life". Cheliax probably isn't gearing up for that war since they need to lick their wounds a bit after the last decade, but there's also tension in how Cheliax wants to avoid Hell's promised bargain of "let us bring in devils whenever we want, and we'll supply you with troops". The more active Cheliax gets in preparing for war with their neighbor to the East, the more forceful Hell is in bargaining. So whatever preparations are afoot, they're probably low key since "we can field the armies of hell if we need to" is a decent ace in the hole.
Like the presumed reason Cheliax and Andoran aren't going to go to war is "The threat Tar-Baphon poses to all mortal life". Cheliax probably isn't gearing up for that war since they need to lick their wounds a bit after the last decade, but there's also tension in how Cheliax wants to avoid Hell's promised bargain of "let us bring in devils whenever we want, and we'll supply you with troops". The more active Cheliax gets in preparing for war with their neighbor to the East, the more forceful Hell is in bargaining. So whatever preparations are afoot, they're probably low key since "we can field the armies of hell if we need to" is a decent ace in the hole.
Tar-Baphon is there but they are gearing up for war. At least on Andoran's side. It would be rather foolish of Cheliax to ignore the build up of their probably greatest enemy.
Unlike Taldor, Andoran is not a signatory of the Treaty of the Wildwood, and its logging operations not officially under the Lodge’s protection. Those operations have rapidly expanded in recent months to meet the ravenous shipbuilding industry’s demands, driven by growing fears of imminent war with Cheliax
I mean, what Andoran wants is less "conquer Cheliax with trade" and more "hegemony throughout the inner sea via unquestioned naval superiority." Andoran believes that it would be best that Cheliax just rolls over and does things the way Andoran wants them to, no lives need to be lost.
Looking at it the other way, your quasi-belligerent neighbor is in business with the honest to goodness actual Devil, would you trust for an instant that they're not up to something, or would you maintain a stronger military than they have in order to keep them from pulling something.
Like Andoran is for sure feeling their oats after they effectively ended the international slave trade in the inner sea (most of this was the market in Absalom drying up, after the manumission of slaves in the city and the subsequent abolition of slavery), since "attack slaver ships and liberate their cargo" was one of the big jobs of the Andoran Navy.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The more active Cheliax gets in preparing for war with their neighbor to the East, the more forceful Hell is in bargaining. So whatever preparations are afoot, they're probably low key since "we can field the armies of hell if we need to" is a decent ace in the hole.
While your premise that Cheliax, a mere Great Power, has no desire to involve the superpower that is Hell in its wars (following the general rule of all smaller powers to avoid involving bigger powers in their affairs), I'm not sure this conclusion holds. If anything, Hell's bargaining position is stronger the less prepared Cheliax is to carry out an independent policy, because its aid would be more necessary in order to plug gaps in Cheliax's capabilities. That being the case, I would expect Cheliax to be conscripting soldiers, impressing sailors, building ships for the fleet, and purchasing arms for the army, however surreptitiously.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Apropos of the Great Power war speculation, Spore War's first volume's product page, posted last week, strongly intimates the possibility. The referenced diplomatic conference is probably between [representatives of] Telandia [and one or more of], Eutropia, Drannoch, and Marusek.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Is it me or does the way ravounel got their independence show how culturally chelish they are? Cause they abused a legal technicality until a new nation came out which seems very chelish to me.
The legal technicality was what allowed Cheliax to gracefully take the L on this one. Were the Ravouneli not precisely correct by the letter of the law, losing that much territory would be a great shame and there would be considerable internal pressure to reclaim it. As it stands, with Ravounel being perceived as a backwater (albeit one that creates interesting art), and with Cheliax largely in control of Ravounel's economy then there's not really much intolerable about the status quo for the Chellish.
Particularly since "retaking Ravounel by force" (ignoring legalities and their repercussions) would be difficult since you either have to cross the mountains, invade *through* Nidal (something they probably wouldn't tolerate) or sail around the Arch of Aroden. Cheliax has more pressing scenarios they might need retain military forces for, anyway (since one thing Ravounel is absolutely not going to do is "invade Cheliax", whereas many of the Inner Sea powers might see reason to.)
It's not quite the client state that Isger is, but an independent Ravounel is more of an asset than a threat to Cheliax.
|
|
It's not quite the client state that Isger is, but an independent Ravounel is more of an asset than a threat to Cheliax.
Since the wrapup of Hell's Rebels in about 4716-17, Ravounel and Isger have been in competition over who's going to be Poland and who's going to be Finland with respect to Cheliax's Russian Empire :V
Prior to Age of Ashes in 4719, Isger was losing (i.e., taking more and more the role of Poland), but as of 4724 it's anybody game again.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Prior to Age of Ashes in 4719, Isger was losing (i.e., taking more and more the role of Poland), but as of 4724 it's anybody game again.
I feel main difference in 4724 is that the Chellish spies are on better terms with the Isgeri spies, and find the Ravouneli spies charmingly hostile as they fail to realize the great game is just that.
Ravounel probably outputs significantly more "I'm going to save the world" hero types but they tend not to stay home to work on the fundamentals of statecraft.
Of course, Cheliax probably does not understand precisely what's going on in Vyre, but neither do the powers that be in Kintargo. What happens in Vyre, stays in Vyre- on threat of a a grisly end.