I'm building a gunsword user for a upcoming outlaws campaign!
But I'm having some struggles.
At first I thought about doing a ranger, but they seem really focused on ... Well, ranged. And that's fine. But when I think of focusing on ranged attacks. Why would I not just pick a normal old gun and stick a weapon attachment onto it?
So I want to focus on melee with the ranged portion as a more fallback/switch hitter playstyle.
So 18 strength and 16 dexterity.
Ranger still has strong potential damage between precision, gravity.
But fighter is more accurate and I'm a fan of not missing (more than critting)
We will be using free archetype.
As for the combination weapon benefit itself. I have a question.
It says that if you strike with melee you can without spending an action, switch to range and attack. Why would anyone do this? I can't fathom a reason. First thought was does it work with exacting strike on fighter. But still don't understand a reason for it
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I disagree with your opening assumption. Rangers are exceptionally weapon and fighting style agnostic, it's one of their strengths as a class. Where fighters focus on one specific weapon and swashbucklers need finesse and thrown weapons, you can do pretty much whatever with a ranger. They're good combination weapons, at least as far as you can call any build with a combination weapon good.
The big problem with Fighters is that Weapon Mastery applies to a specific weapon group, and each half of your combination weapon belongs to a different weapon group, so you'll hit great with your sword but effectively have no combat features with your gun, kinda sucks.
Fighter starts at expert so it's still a very accurate early game.
When it drops away, it just becomes the same as other martials.
With free archetype, i get the chance to get some feats to support my ranged fighting
As for the combination weapon benefit itself. I have a question.
It says that if you strike with melee you can without spending an action, switch to range and attack. Why would anyone do this? I can't fathom a reason. First thought was does it work with exacting strike on fighter. But still don't understand a reason for it
Well the other options that I see are:
* Just use the melee half of the weapon and ignore the firearm part.
* Make the Melee attack, spend an action switching to ranged mode, make a ranged attack. Then on your next turn your combination weapon is in ranged mode and you need to spend another action changing grip back to melee mode before using melee attacks again.
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When it drops away, it just becomes the same as other martials.
I mean sort of, but other martials have other combat gimmicks instead of accuracy. A rogue who never gets sneak attack or a Barbarian who never rages is pretty lame, and that's where you are with the wrong half of your weapon after level 5.
It's definitely not the end of the world, but it does mean your ranged mode is kind of uninspiring. That's not a huge deal if you're only planning on using it as a fallback/emergency option like you implied, but if that's all you want it for you might be better off just using a greatsword and a regular ranged weapon and not nerfing your melee as much.
As for the combination weapon benefit itself. I have a question.
It says that if you strike with melee you can without spending an action, switch to range and attack. Why would anyone do this? I can't fathom a reason. First thought was does it work with exacting strike on fighter. But still don't understand a reason for it
Well the other options that I see are:
* Just use the melee half of the weapon and ignore the firearm part.
* Make the Melee attack, spend an action switching to ranged mode, make a ranged attack. Then on your next turn your combination weapon is in ranged mode and you need to spend another action changing grip back to melee mode before using melee attacks again.
Doesn't it say you automatically go back to melee configuration? My question rather is why would I ever bother
When it drops away, it just becomes the same as other martials.I mean sort of, but other martials have other combat gimmicks instead of accuracy. A rogue who never gets sneak attack or a Barbarian who never rages is pretty lame, and that's where you are with the wrong half of your weapon after level 5.
It's definitely not the end of the world, but it does mean your ranged mode is kind of uninspiring. That's not a huge deal if you're only planning on using it as a fallback/emergency option like you implied, but if that's all you want it for you might be better off just using a greatsword and a regular ranged weapon and not nerfing your melee as much.
Saves me on runes and actions unless I am going to drop my weapon and take quick draw.
I want to utilize the gunsword ultimately
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Flagged to be put in Advice forum, since this thread seems to be more about asking for advice on building a combination weapon user than just talking about combination weapons or their users as a whole.
As the others say, Fighters do not work well with Combination weapons simply because Combination weapons require two sets of proficiency to work (one for Firearms, one for whatever other weapon type it's combined with), and Fighters won't ever be +2 on both of them until 19th level. (Gunslingers also fall under this problem, and don't get this rectification later like a Fighter does, so they're technically even worse, despite getting features and feats that make their gameplay more smooth by comparison.) And if they're Advanced? Good luck.
Rangers are in a weird spot as well, but they do fare a bit better than Fighter in this regard. For starters, they do have some better innate feats that help them with both parts of the weapon (such as Running Reload and Gravity Weapon), though never both at the same time, for obvious reasons. Furthermore, since Free Archetype is allowed, you can definitely take some more Gun-oriented Archetypes to further expand your ranged capacity. It even makes your "lesser" mode of fighting still competent by comparison, though it does disincentivize switch-hitting for a good portion of the game as well.
I also see no reason not to just take Gunslinger and focus on a secondary class with your Free Archetype, such as Ranger for Gravity Weapon and Far Shot, for example, things that function identically for a Gunslinger as well as for a Ranger. The added Reload benefits from your Way (or other feats) are too unique to the class that can't be replicated in any other means (including the previously mentioned Ranger with Gunslinger MCD).
IMO, Combination Weapons are really just a means to allow Switch-Hitting, just with less Switching involved, such as having to need hands free to use it, or wasting actions drawing other weapons out, etc. A GunBlade is a neat sword that can also function as a firearm in a pinch, and doesn't require two hands or two different objects to get the benefits of having both a sword and a firearm out at the same time. This is convenient for applying runes and such, too. They pay for this convenience by being less efficient weapons as a whole by themselves, which is really up to you to determine if it is worthwhile or not for your character to use.
You could simply pick mauler as your archetype and choose firearms for your weapon mastery. Master in both modes at level 5.
My understanding is that is not how that works.
Doesn't it say you automatically go back to melee configuration? My question rather is why would I ever botherWell the other options that I see are:
* Just use the melee half of the weapon and ignore the firearm part.
* Make the Melee attack, spend an action switching to ranged mode, make a ranged attack. Then on your next turn your combination weapon is in ranged mode and you need to spend another action changing grip back to melee mode before using melee attacks again.
If you use the Combination trait to fire the firearm after making a melee attack, then yes - the weapon stays in melee mode. And you can only fire the firearm part of the weapon at that enemy that you hit in melee range - so the ranged Strike will provoke reactions.
If you use an action to switch it to ranged mode in order to make a ranged Strike (against anyone, no limit on that), then the combination weapon stays in ranged mode.
Yeah, it is probably a niche use thing - it is probably more action efficient to just make a second melee attack with the combination weapon rather than firing the firearm part of it. You won't have to reload the firearm afterwards.
It would not work for gunslingers because of singular expertise. Fighters have no such restrictions.You could simply pick mauler as your archetype and choose firearms for your weapon mastery. Master in both modes at level 5.My understanding is that is not how that works.
Technically true, but I'd be disinclined to accept this to work at all tables, since this just reeks of cheese.
It would not work for gunslingers because of singular expertise. Fighters have no such restrictions.You could simply pick mauler as your archetype and choose firearms for your weapon mastery. Master in both modes at level 5.My understanding is that is not how that works.
This is a good point... Thanks
The ability to make a ranged attack immediately after a melee is useful for gunslingers only because they're more accurate with firearms. Mostly pointless for anyone else. Maybe in the future we'll get a reach combination weapon that could make that ability more tactically useful. Only other thing I can think of would be using an extending rune to attack at 40 feet and follow up with a ranged attack.
Hah. Yeah, that is certainly an interesting interaction.
Some people use a laser sight. I use ... this.
The free ranged attack mostly seems like a flavor thing. Swinging the sword and then shooting as you swing/immediately after is a common gunblade thing in fiction. So it's something the game lets you do.
Technically true, but I'd be disinclined to accept this to work at all tables, since this just reeks of cheese.
We're getting a little out then if we're calling taking a feat in order to benefit from the only thing the feat does cheese.
Is that use of it not exactly what the archetype's scaling proficiency is for?Technically true, but I'd be disinclined to accept this to work at all tables, since this just reeks of cheese.It would not work for gunslingers because of singular expertise. Fighters have no such restrictions.You could simply pick mauler as your archetype and choose firearms for your weapon mastery. Master in both modes at level 5.My understanding is that is not how that works.
If it was strictly a Melee weapon, and not a Combination weapon, sure. The issue stems from it being written prior to such items coming to existence, meaning it's uncertain how it's supposed to work out, considering Combination weapons don't specify instances like using different proficiencies from one form of attack to another.
And really, with the feat having proficiency scaling to account for those Martial classes with "weird" proficiencies (like the Rogue), the only other "target audience" for this dedication would be characters who want the other feats associated with the dedication (which are slim), or non-Martial characters who want scaling proficiency with two-handed weaponry, which I have seen in actual gameplay before compared to Combination weapons.
The problem I find is when a non-Martial character takes this and decides to use a Gun Sword. That character is now fully proficient in a Firearm in addition to being proficient in all two-handed weaponry, something I'm fairly certain is not intended by the feat, because by RAW, that's what happens. It's not much different than if I took a Weapon Training General Feat for the Gun Sword; would I not be proficient in both of its uses? If so, then the same applies here, since the Gun Sword is a Two-Handed Melee weapon, and you are proficient in all Two-Handed Melee weapons.
Even if you want to argue "Well, the feat should only apply to sword attacks, not firearm attacks, because that's what the feat is intended to work with" the feat gives proficiency to all weapons that are Two-Handed Melee weapons, and doesn't provide distinctions on if the weapon can be used differently or not, such as a Bastard Sword, which can be used one-handed with full proficiency from the feat, despite the feat being intended to work with Two-Handed Melee weapons. Is the Bastard Sword a Two-Handed Melee weapon? It can be. That's why you get proficiency in this weapon and not a Longsword, because it fits that criteria, despite essentially being a very similar weapon. In contrast, a Gun Blade would grant you proficiency in shooting with it because of it being a Two-Handed Melee weapon. Meaning by RAW, Maulers are proficient in all Two-Handed Combination Firearms, because they are also Two-Handed Melee weapons.
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The bastard sword is clear because Mauler calls out the two-hand trait.
A firearm on the other hand is not a two-handed melee weapon. Pretty straightforward.
... But even if we take your point at face value, this supposed loophole isn't even relevant to aobst128's suggestion, because you already have firearm proficiency from your class and you're just using mauler to scale up your melee proficiency.
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Technically true, but I'd be disinclined to accept this to work at all tables, since this just reeks of cheese.It would not work for gunslingers because of singular expertise. Fighters have no such restrictions.You could simply pick mauler as your archetype and choose firearms for your weapon mastery. Master in both modes at level 5.My understanding is that is not how that works.
So a fighter with the mauler archetype getting master proficiency in bows & two-handed weapons is not cheese, but one with master proficiency in guns & two-handed weapons is cheese?
The bastard sword is clear because Mauler calls out the two-hand trait.
A firearm on the other hand is not a two-handed melee weapon. Pretty straightforward.
... But even if we take your point at face value, this supposed loophole isn't even relevant to aobst128's suggestion, because you already have firearm proficiency from your class and you're just using mauler to scale up your melee proficiency.
The Gun Blade isn't just a Firearm though, it's also a Two-Handed Melee Weapon. So wouldn't taking Mauler give you proficiency in the entirety of the weapon, thus making the choice of either Firearms or Swords as your focused weapon group pointless, since it wouldn't matter which weapon group you chose besides those two, as it scales on whatever proficiency it is (which could be Unarmed/Brawling)? So, being Legendary in 3 different "effective" types of weapons, one being standard, and two being from Combination Weapon interaction shenanigans, sounds too good to be true.
The reason why I bring up Bastard Sword is because it's usually wielded in one hand, and has the option for two-handed usage via the trait. Obviously, the trait is why you get proficiency via Mauler, but if you have the option to wield a Bastard Sword in one hand, and aren't forcibly relegated to using it in two hands for Proficiency purposes, why wouldn't we use the same concept for the Gun Blade?
So a fighter with the mauler archetype getting master proficiency in bows & two-handed weapons is not cheese, but one with master proficiency in guns & two-handed weapons is cheese?Technically true, but I'd be disinclined to accept this to work at all tables, since this just reeks of cheese.It would not work for gunslingers because of singular expertise. Fighters have no such restrictions.You could simply pick mauler as your archetype and choose firearms for your weapon mastery. Master in both modes at level 5.My understanding is that is not how that works.
When they make bows and two-handed weapons into the same combination weapon, I'd call that cheese too, since you get proficiency in the entirety of the weapon with a group that's technically not associated with the archetype.
Here's how I see it. Let's take two examples: a Fighter who takes the Mauler Archetype and a Wizard who takes the Mauler archetype. Both of them want to use a Gun Sword.
We'll start with the Fighter. Fighter takes Mauler at 2nd level, though right now all it is really doing for her is giving her the critical specialization effect with all of her two-handed weapons, since she starts with expert proficiency in all simple and martial weapons. We wait until she hits level 5 and gets the Fighter Weapon Mastery feature. She decides to get master proficiency with the firearms weapon group. Now the text in Mauler Dedication about boosting proficiency with 2-handed weapons kicks in. Our Fighter can now make attacks with both the sword and gun part of the Gun Sword with her master proficiency accuracy.
Things don't go so well for our Mauler Wizard. Like Fighter, he gets Mauler Dedication at 2nd level and gets a Gun Sword. However, he only applies his trained proficiency with melee attacks made with the Gun Sword; he is trained with 2-handed simple and martial melee weapons, and that's it. To add his proficiency bonus with the gun part of the Gun Sword, he will need to take weapon proficiency twice to become proficient with all martial weapons. At that point, it's probably better to take the Fighter Dedication instead.
Does that make sense?
The Gun Blade isn't just a Firearm though, it's also a Two-Handed Melee Weapon.
The entry for the gun sword's firearm half is not a melee weapon. It's clearly listed as a ranged weapon, so... something that gives you proficiency in two-handed weapons doesn't apply (which again is irrelevant for our fighter here because they already have firearm proficiency).
why wouldn't we use the same concept for the Gun Blade?
Because Mauler calls out the two-handed trait explicitly. If that line didn't exist, we would treat the bastard sword differently.
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Notably if you treat combination weapons the way Darksol proposes then that would mean Gunslingers are legendary in the melee attacks of a combination weapon, which is obviously untrue.
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Notably if you treat combination weapons the way Darksol proposes then that would mean Gunslingers are legendary in the melee attacks of a combination weapon, which is obviously untrue.
How I wish drifters got that.
I'm building a gunsword user for a upcoming outlaws campaign! ...
I think the two most effective options are Gunslinger Vanguard/Centinel and Fighter/Mauler. The problem with either is that they want both Strength and Dexterity since the sword component is not finesse. However, ultimately, I believe Vanguard will be more forgiving.
Gunslinger Vanguard:
The Gunslinger's better weapon proficiency makes starting with Dex 16 the same as being any other martial proficient with firearms and Dex 18. Until level 8, the action economy is basically Stab > Blast > Clear a Path. After level 8, Stab and Blast > Clear a Path > Ready Parry or Step/Stride.
With Dex 16, it doesn't really need Bulwark, but the extra +1 AC for heavy armor will be beneficial to the Vanguard. Shoving targets with Vanguard's reload (Clear a Path) also helps offset Gunslinger's squishyness.
However, he is going to be provoking Attacks of Opportunity between shooting in melee distance and interacting to reload.
Fighter/Mauler:
Since the Fighter can't get Stab and Blast before 16th, Dex 18 makes his follow-up shot more accurate. Picking up Point-Blank Shot will help with the firearm damage. Alternatively, Mobile Shot won't provoke Attacks of Opportunity with gunshots. Reloading is still a problem, though.
An alternative to Mauler is to start with Str 18 and Dex 16, multi-class Gunslinger Vanguard at 2nd with firearms mastery at 5th. This makes Clear a Path available at 10th with Defensive Armaments for the Parry trait at 4th.
The action economy is basically the same as the level 1 to 7 Vanguard: Stab > Blast > Reload.
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Pixel, how are you getting the 18 in STR for Gunslinger? The only key ability score for Gunslinger is DEX, so only DEX can possibly get to 18 without homebrewing.
I'd allow it as a GM if it were a homebrew situation, but just curious.