Your spell has a powerful aftereffect, briefly granting you a certain spell
depending on the spell you cast. You use Arcane Cascade and are subject
to an additional aftereffect spell depending on the school of your most
recent spell. This aftereffect spell’s duration lasts until the end of your
next turn or its normal duration, whichever is longer. Using Arcane Shroud again
ends any existing spell you gained from Arcane Shroud.
• Abjuration stoneskin
• Conjuration blink
• Divination see invisibility
• Enchantment heroism
• Evocation fire shield
• Illusion invisibility (ends after a hostile action, as normal)
• Necromancy false life
• Transmutation fleet step
Let's say i used Spellstrike with Daze (with expansive strike feat, to make possible using Daze with Spellstrike). If i use Arcane Cascade afterward, while having Arcane Shroud feat. That should put Heroism spell on me, which should last standard one minute.
Question is - what level of Heroism would it be? If i am at level-17, and all my cantrips auto-leveled to level-9, does that mean Heroism also will be level-9?| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Let's say i used Spellstrike with Daze (with expansive strike feat, to make possible using Daze with Spellstrike). If i use Arcane Cascade afterward, while having Arcane Shroud feat. That should put Heroism spell on me, which should last standard one minute.
Question is - what level of Heroism would it be? If i am at level-17, and all my cantrips auto-leveled to level-9, does that mean Heroism also will be level-9?
Minor detail to note:
Requirements: Your most recent action was to Cast a Spell from a spell slot or make a Spellstrike with a spell from a spell slot.
So it won't work with cantrips, innate spells, or focus spells.
However, that doesn't really answer the question of what level the spell effect from Arcane Shroud is. But it does lead to the most common ruling that it will match the level of the spell slot used to trigger it.
Note: Arcane Cascade itself doesn't have that restriction. You can use Arcane Cascade triggered by cantrips, innate spells, and focus spells as well as spell slot spells. Just not Arcane Shroud.
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"...the most common ruling that it will match the level of the spell slot used to trigger it."
-Citation needed.
That doesn't seem to follow. The spell slot's level is tied to the level of the spell within that slot only. Arcane Shroud is triggering a secondary spell and I can't see any connection mentioned, so it goes to the spell's base level unless noted otherwise. That seems like the default, and has been the answer to similar questions when a spell has different tiers.
Plus in context, there'd be a wildly extreme variance in effectiveness for the spells listed under Arcane Shroud, i.e. 1st or 2nd level spells vs. spells heightened to 9th.
Arcane Shroud is triggering a secondary spell and I can't see any connection mentioned, so it goes to the spell's base level unless noted otherwise. That seems like the default, and has been the answer to similar questions when a spell has different tiers.
Which other questions?
And no, I don't actually have a citation for that. I just can't think of any other ruling that would make any sense from a balance perspective. Taking a 14th level feat in order to get 10-12 temp HP or physical resistance 5 at that character level just does't seem worth it. So there becomes a huge imbalance between those options and the options that don't need heightened such as the +30 bonus to speed. But that imbalance is fixed quite well by heightening the spell to the level of the spell slot used for the primary spell.
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False Life and Stoneskin seem really bad if they never heighten.
On the other hand, there's no language in the feat about heightening the bonus spell at all, and the reminder text next to invisibility seems to specifically suggest it doesn't heighten.
False Life and Stoneskin seem really bad if they never heighten.
On the other hand, there's no language in the feat about heightening the bonus spell at all, and the reminder text next to invisibility seems to specifically suggest it doesn't heighten.
You can take that as an indication that the other spells should heighten, though. This feat has so many layers.
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My first instinct is that this seems like pretty clear ERRATA territory and that, until it gets ERRATA or FAQ'd, GMs will have to do what they feel is best, because both options (cast at base level, and cast at full level) seem oppositely too far off the power spectrum of expected feats.
At fully heightened, this is quickened spell, but better (heightens to your full level), plus a free action (for the arcane cascade) and you can do it 4 times a day. That might be what was intended, but it is pretty reasonable to skeptical that the feat is intended to be 4 times better than a 10th level wizard feat.
But base level on some of these is pretty abysmal too, although probably closer to a restricted quickened that can be done 4 times a day.
So, after thinking it through, I am guessing that "spells cast at base level unless specified otherwise (as they do when cast from all items) is probably the default RAW and likely RAI. I agree that it makes this feat incredibly situational to consider taking, although resistance 5 physical is still pretty useful at 14th level for a repeatable resource. See invisibility and +30 speed is usually worth it when you need it, although difficult to justify having the spells to trigger it.
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Tl; dr: If the feat doesn't say it gives you a Heightened version, you get the normal version.
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One other question like this regarded magic items whose levels would suggest perhaps getting a heightened version of a spell the items provide. They don't (and no, I'm bad about tagging answers for citation, but yes, I've read such an answer).
To get a Heightened version, you'd have to add language to the feat which just isn't there and isn't suggested, as in there's no reference to the initial spell's level at all. Other than Cantrips (which usually are good about indicating so), there's no hidden heightening and no free heightening in PF2. Again, unless there's specific language. Seems exactly normal here; you get the plain version.
As for why Invisibility mentions it ends as normal with a hostile action, it's not just saying you get the normal basic version (which IMO is evidence the others are basic versions), but also saying that because Arcane Shroud explicitly lists two durations and Paizo wanted to make it clear that Invisibility's other means of ending its duration still stands.
As feats go, for a Magus it represents four lower level bonus slots which, if the Magus already enjoys Arcane Cascade, come at zero extra action cost. That's akin to Quickened, which is pretty darn strong in terms of action economy, even if the spells are mediocre. They're effectively free both in terms of other resources and in terms of actions (again, if one goes into Arcane Cascade regularly that is). I wouldn't necessarily take it, yet if my Magus had other spells slots from an Archetype, that multiplies the feat's effects quite a lot. Then I'd definitely have to consider it.
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Ruling that the spell effect is cast at the base level doesn't change how many times it can be used or how many actions it takes. All it does is makes some of the effects much more appealing than others.
Items are known to not scale with character level at all in any circumstances. Scrolls even explicitly say that unless the scroll lists a heightened version of the spell, that the spell is cast at its base level.
But we aren't talking about items here. This is a character feat.
Yes, having it auto-heighten to maximum castable level like a cantrip or focus spell is too much. But this is also Magus that we are looking at. The ability requires consuming a spell slot. Of which you have two at your highest level and two at one level lower than that, two more lower level spell slots from Studious Spells, and maybe some other slots of various lower levels through archetypes.
Considering the entire action economy needed in order to use it (both casting a spell or spellstrike as well as the action needed for Arcane Shroud), I don't think it compares all that much better than Quicken Spell. It is usable a bit more often, but has less flexibility on what you can do with the rest of your turn.
Having the effect's level tied to the level of spell used for it means that Arcane Shroud will have diminishing returns. You can only get the full effect at most twice per day. Slightly lower effect twice more. Then significantly lower effect a few more times.
But again, that is only for the ones that need heightening in order to be practical. The others are cast at full power all of the time since they don't have any additional effect when heightened.
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And ultimately I agree with Unicore. This needs errata, and until that happens we are just talking in circles and fencing with words.
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It's not ambiguous, there's nothing special about feats that makes them use a different type of descriptions for spell levels.
If a spell is mentioned without a level, then it's cast at the base level. If it's supposed to be heightened, then it'll mention the level. For an example on a feat, there's Invisible Trickster which specifically calls out 4th level invisibility. That's the same kind of writing as on the Cloak of Elvenkind which just says "invisibility" on the base item, and "4th-level invisibility" for the more powerful version.
Or look at Vigilant Benediction, a feat that does provide heightening of the spells if you take it multiple times.
So basically the other options are there just as filler and to trap the unwary.
I would say that the developers wouldn't do things like that, but then I look at Elemental Betrayal and the Air option. So maybe you are right.
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I looked at the feat for a long time for my own magus but I don't think it's really all that good. The spell effects aren't bad to have - invisibility, heroism, see invisibility, stoneskin; all of them are nice to get as a bonus effect for doing stuff to turn on arcane cascade. But to get good value out of it, it does force you to use specific schools as early as possible in the fight and getting that to work out comfortably isn't that easy either.
I think it suffers a bit from the designers rating some extra spells per day really really highly. If you compare this to Expert Spellcasting (level 12) from various dedication, you can see that it's kinda in the same ballpark. This one has potentially stronger (two spells in one round) but also more restrictive action economy.
Yes, having it auto-heighten to maximum castable level like a cantrip or focus spell is too much. But this is also Magus that we are looking at. The ability requires consuming a spell slot. Of which you have two at your highest level and two at one level lower than that, two more lower level spell slots from Studious Spells, and maybe some other slots of various lower levels through archetypes.
This tbh. Magus don't even get spells extension feats like Summoner...
...albeit even summoner likely will benefit more from multiclassing into another spellscaster, rather than using his own spells extension feats. Yeah that's 5 feats over 3, but also 14 additional spells per day, and up to level-8, compared to 7 additional spells per day and max level-7, with 3 feats.Although if treating it as RAW, neither Arcane Shroud, nor Arcane Cascade, nor even Spellstrike defines that spell have to be cast specifically from Magus' spell slot.
So potentially you can extend it up to 18 time of usage of same Arcane Shroud effect per day... or even 28 times per day, if you go all nuts and multiclass into 2 additional spellcaster classes.
Of course that also means you giving up on pretty much all Magus' specializations, and you would have to use specifically only "harmful" enchantment spells via spellstrike, just to get that status bonus to your attack roll.
In the end you still sacrifice more than you actually gain.
Btw, a little bit of an offtopic, but since i mentioned specifically Daze Being used. Also wonders:
You cloud the target’s mind and daze it with a mental jolt.
The jolt deals mental damage equal to your spellcasting
ability modifier; the target must attempt a basic Will save. If
the target critically fails the save, it is also stunned 1.
Heightened (+2) The damage increases by 1d6.
Does will save affects only whenever target is stunned or not, and damage (including heightened) is guarantied?
Or does it still goes "usual" half damage at successful save, and no damage on critical success?| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Btw, a little bit of an offtopic, but since i mentioned specifically Daze Being used. Also wonders:
You cloud the target’s mind and daze it with a mental jolt.
The jolt deals mental damage equal to your spellcasting
ability modifier; the target must attempt a basic Will save. If
the target critically fails the save, it is also stunned 1.
Heightened (+2) The damage increases by 1d6.Does will save affects only whenever target is stunned or not, and damage (including heightened) is guarantied?
Or does it still goes "usual" half damage at successful save, and no damage on critical success?
A Basic Will save includes changing the amount of damage dealt. In fact, changing the amount of damage dealt is all that that keyword does.
So no, Daze does not give an unchangeable amount of damage. It is still modified by the results of the Basic Will save.
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It's not ambiguous, there's nothing special about feats that makes them use a different type of descriptions for spell levels.
If a spell is mentioned without a level, then it's cast at the base level. If it's supposed to be heightened, then it'll mention the level. For an example on a feat, there's Invisible Trickster which specifically calls out 4th level invisibility. That's the same kind of writing as on the Cloak of Elvenkind which just says "invisibility" on the base item, and "4th-level invisibility" for the more powerful version.
Or look at Vigilant Benediction, a feat that does provide heightening of the spells if you take it multiple times.
I agree. Some people have a natural false notion that spells that came from other ways than spellslots/items are auto-heightened because cantrips and focus spells works like that but it's the opposite. Spells aren't heightened by default, except when they using a greater slot to cast it or if the spell is a focus spell or a cantrip it become heightened half of the char level rounded up.
So I'm also don't thing it's ambiguous. As the feat didn't say that spell receives heightened or specify the spell level so the spell is casted in it's base level no matter what's the magus level. Also the spellslot lvl used as base do not interfere due the feat doesn't say that it effects it in this way.
Off course. If the Paizo add more explicitly in the faq that spell effect activated by Arcane Shroud isn't heightened will be good to prevent some more miss interpretations but it isn't really required. Once there's nothing saying that it works heightened so it isn't heightened.
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I agree. Some people have a natural false notion that spells that came from other ways than spellslots/items are auto-heightened because cantrips, focus spells and innate spells works like that but it's the opposite. Spells aren't heightened by default, except when they using a greater slot to cast it or if the spell is a focus spell/innate spell or a cantrip it become heightened half of the char level rounded up.
Innate spells can't be heightened, unless it calls it out in the specific ability. Innate cantrips are heightened.
Innate spells can't be heightened, unless it calls it out in the specific ability. Innate cantrips are heightened.I agree. Some people have a natural false notion that spells that came from other ways than spellslots/items are auto-heightened because cantrips, focus spells and innate spells works like that but it's the opposite. Spells aren't heightened by default, except when they using a greater slot to cast it or if the spell is a focus spell/innate spell or a cantrip it become heightened half of the char level rounded up.
Yes you right I'm sorry. But I have become an example of the miss-read I'm talking about. :P
