Using a scroll in a single round

[eyelessgame]

So we've not been sticklers for this in all the years I've played 3.x, but it seems that scrolls are not designed to be used in a single round of combat. It is a move action to pull a scroll box from a belt or pack, and a move action to pull a scroll from a container - so then you wind up taking a second round to cast the spell.

The physical description of scrolls says "To protect it from wrinkling or tearing, a scroll is ... placed in a tube of [materials type list]."

Does a handy haversack allow you to safely store scrolls outside of scroll cases or boxes? It indexes them for you (you can just pull the one you want). Are they proof, in the haversack, against "wrinkling or tearing" if just tossed in the haversack?

How have other DMs played it? I don't expect there's a RAW; do you generally let a haversack-equipped wizard/cleric cast a spell off a scroll in a single round?

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

I allow it. I also allow scrolls to be written on membrane, so tearing isn't be an issue and wrinkling less of one. Water still is a problem, though, unless you use waterproof inks.

[Kurald Galain]

I've always assumed that scroll cases are for long travel, overnight storage, the rare moment you adventure underwater, or expensive scrolls that you do not need in the middle of combat (like Restoration).

It's totally reasonable to have a handful of non-cased scrolls in your pocket (or a bandolier) during a dungeon crawl.

[zza ni]

get a scroll case, spring loaded it's cheap, take a swift action to pull out the scroll and spread it so you can immediately use it.
if the scroll has more then one spell on it you might have the rest dangling out from your belt or whatever has the case hanging from ,but that's not a biggy.

also you can have as many of them as you can carry and a scroll can have as many spells scribbed as you put on it (and that it have enough length for).

[SheepishEidolon]

A few things that come to my mind:

1) Scrolls can be of solid material like wood.

2) A creature can simply carry a scroll in one hand, assuming it will need it soon. Yes, this makes the scroll more vulnerable, and it might be not of use - that's the risk you take for a big action economy benefit.

3) Scrolls compete with regular spells and multiple item types that evoke spells (wands, staves, spell tattoos etc.). If action economy for scrolls becomes better, there is a risk that alternatives become obsolete, making the game more dull.

[Mark Hoover 330]

I've said it, for YEARS: this is one of the reasons to have a Familiar. Think about it: if the Familiar has grasping hands or the Valet archetype so they've got open/close and prestidigitation at will, THEY can use their 2 Move actions in a round to hand you a scroll, then YOU read it. You don't have to risk them in combat, don't have to send them scouting into danger - simply having a Familiar present you your scrolls to use is a terrific resource that no one ever considers.

[TxSam88]

"activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell’s casting time, whichever is longer) "

So, carry your scroll case on your belt, retrieve a scroll as a move action, then activate it as a standard action, which would be the same round.
I'm not seeing the problem.

[Kurald Galain]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

if the Familiar has grasping hands or the Valet archetype so they've got open/close and prestidigitation at will, THEY can use their 2 Move actions in a round to hand you a scroll, then YOU read it. You don't have to risk them in combat

How is that not risking the familiar in combat? If it has line-of-effect to hand you the scrolls, then enemies can target the familiar with attacks and/or include it in area effects like Fireball. Conversely, if your familiar is safely tucked away (e.g. in a familiar pouch) then it cannot hand you items.

[Ryze Kuja]

I have a houserule that everyone gets Quick Draw with any weapon that you're proficient in, and that casters can choose to get their own version of Quick Draw if they want; it doesn't affect Quick Drawing weapons but rather you can use it to Quick Draw Scrolls, MM Rods, Wands, etc., provided that they're readily accessible. They can either be affixed to your belt, bandolier, or w/e. I cap the amount that's "readily accessible" at 8 items, and I think that's pretty fair. That way everything in their scroll arsenal isn't "readily available" to be drawn with a free action, but these 8 items can be, and it kinda introduces a little bit of strategy to picking your fav 8 magic items to fight with. I essentially treat this as a poor man's Efficient Quiver and Insightful Scroll Case.

I think the rules are too punitive for using these items in combat effectively, and in fact deters or disincentivizes players to even consider fighting with items without investing some serious gold to do so, and I don't like that. I like the PC's to have options.

[zza ni]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

..

I think the rules are too punitive for using these items in combat effectively, and in fact deters or disincentivizes players to even consider fighting with items without investing some serious gold to do so, and I don't like that. I like the PC's to have options.

right, hence so my suggestion above for an item that cost 5 gp and let you use a scroll as swift action. no house rules or fancy items\feats needed.

my 1st level wizards usually start with one that has infernal healing and mage armor scribed in it for the low low price of 30 gp (he scirbes the spells himself)

[Diego Rossi]

The 3.X-Pathfinder changed 1 round from 1 minute of AD&D (and, from what I recall, D&D BECSM) to 6 seconds, but tried to allow people to do the same things they were able to do before, or even more.

The end results are these kinds of dissonances.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Kurald Galain wrote:

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

if the Familiar has grasping hands or the Valet archetype so they've got open/close and prestidigitation at will, THEY can use their 2 Move actions in a round to hand you a scroll, then YOU read it. You don't have to risk them in combat

How is that not risking the familiar in combat? If it has line-of-effect to hand you the scrolls, then enemies can target the familiar with attacks and/or include it in area effects like Fireball. Conversely, if your familiar is safely tucked away (e.g. in a familiar pouch) then it cannot hand you items.

Many, not ALL, but many familiars are Tiny or smaller; ignore my above statement of the utility of familiars if they are Small or larger, don't have grasping hands or were otherwise chosen solely to remain hidden for 20 levels and only provide a static bonus to the PC.

For Tiny or smaller, the Stealth skill states

Stealth wrote:

Breaking Stealth When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).

Also

Stealth wrote:

Hide Behind Other Creatures Large bodies that break your opponent’s line of sight can sometimes be just as useful as darkness for hiding your position.

Special: Normally the soft cover provided by other creatures is not sufficient to allow you to attempt a Stealth check. Soft cover provided by creatures at least one size category larger than you does allow you to attempt Stealth checks against other creatures not already aware of your presence at a –10 penalty. If the creature providing the cover knows which square you occupy and is trying to avoid concealing you, this penalty increases to –20.

You can also hide from a creature by staying under its own body if it is at least two size categories larger than you and you are in its space. Such attempts also take a –10 penalty, which increases to a –20 penalty if the creature is aware you are in the area. If the creature moves away from you, you are automatically revealed, unless you have readied an action to move with it.

So, if the familiar begins in Stealth, inside a container... say, something big enough to hold a scroll case but also the familiar, said familiar can Move action exit the container enough to hand you the scrollcase, remaining in your own square, then move action return to the container where foes no longer have line of sight to the creature. In this instance it makes a Stealth check as normal.

If the familiar has to double move in order to hand the scrollcase to the PC, it is still ending it's movement in the same square as the PC. If the PC is at least 1 size larger than the familiar, the familiar can attempt to use the scroll user to make a Stealth check at -10 against any foe not already aware of it.

Finally, if the familiar is so small in size that it is somehow riding on the PC, either in a container or on a shoulder, if the familiar uses all of its actions in a round to hand the PC a scroll this STILL saves the scroll user from spending their own Move action. This, in turn, means that the PC has the opportunity to use the scroll w/their Standard action and use their Move action to move out of range of enemies' attacks, get to Cover or Concealment, etc.

[Name Violation]

Don't put your scroll in a box, in a bag, in the cart, on the ship, at the dock back in Town, on a different continent, on another plane.

Have it in your hand, on your belt, at your disposal. No more than a single move action.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Oh also, Caster's Shield or Spell Tattoo.

[eyelessgame]

TxSam88 wrote:

"activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell’s casting time, whichever is longer) "

So, carry your scroll case on your belt, retrieve a scroll as a move action, then activate it as a standard action, which would be the same round.
I'm not seeing the problem.

Retrieving a stored item (scroll case) is a move action regardless of whether it is stored in a pack, on your belt, in a _handy haversack_, in a _portable hole_, or anything else, as far as the rules are concerned - the HH just negates the attack of opportunity.

Taking a scroll out of a scroll case is also a move action, by the explicit description of scrolls in the Magic Items chapter.

It's not a problem if the DM decides "getting out a scroll" counts as "manipulating an item" and therefore as a move action, but since two well-defined subsets of the "get a scroll out" action are each explicitly move actions themselves, it's hard to see it as a single move action.

It would seem weird to have "retrieve from belt" not be a move action when "draw a weapon" is, and "retrieve a stored item" is. There isn't anything in the rules I can find that differentiates storing on your belt versus storing anywhere else, nor any limitation on how many scroll cases can be on your belt if one were to assume the belt were a privileged place.

[eyelessgame]

Name Violation wrote:

Don't put your scroll in a box, in a bag, in the cart, on the ship, at the dock back in Town, on a different continent, on another plane.

Have it in your hand, on your belt, at your disposal. No more than a single move action.

Of course if you already have an item in hand, it is not an extra move action to bring it to hand.

Where do the rules define, and limit, "on your belt"? I might have missed it. How many items can be on your belt, and what says that it is not a move action to get an item from your belt? (In addition to the rule - at least it looks like a rule to me - that says scrolls are placed in scroll cases - though the scroll box provides an explicit alternative.)

If one knows before combat that one is going to use exactly one specific scroll, sure, but this question is in the context of clerics (who don't have a free hand to be holding a scroll) or wizards/sorcerers (who tend to have a plethora of scrolls available and don't already know which scroll they might need as a combat develops).

I want to be clear that I can easily make a rule to get around this. I just want to pick the brain of the people here to know how "standard" this difficulty is, and whether others interpret RAW this way.

[Name Violation]

eyelessgame wrote:

Name Violation wrote:

Don't put your scroll in a box, in a bag, in the cart, on the ship, at the dock back in Town, on a different continent, on another plane.

Have it in your hand, on your belt, at your disposal. No more than a single move action.

Of course if you already have an item in hand, it is not an extra move action to bring it to hand.

Where do the rules define, and limit, "on your belt"? I might have missed it. How many items can be on your belt, and what says that it is not a move action to get an item from your belt? (In addition to the rule - at least it looks like a rule to me - that says scrolls are placed in scroll cases - though the scroll box provides an explicit alternative.)

If one knows before combat that one is going to use exactly one specific scroll, sure, but this question is in the context of clerics (who don't have a free hand to be holding a scroll) or wizards/sorcerers (who tend to have a plethora of scrolls available and don't already know which scroll they might need as a combat develops).

I want to be clear that I can easily make a rule to get around this. I just want to pick the brain of the people here to know how "standard" this difficulty is, and whether others interpret RAW this way.

You can put as many spells as you want on 1 scroll. You only need to draw a single item for all of them.

Quote:

A scroll holding more than one spell has the same width (about 8-1/2 inches) but is an extra foot or so long for each additional spell. Scrolls that hold three or more spells are usually fitted with reinforcing rods at each end rather than simple strips of leather. A scroll has AC 9, 1 hit point, hardness 0, and a break DC of 8.

[OmniMage]

I think a handy haversack is a safe place to store scrolls. Its an extra dimensional storage space that practically hands you the items you are searching for (you don't need to go searching for items).

If you need something more specific, then there is the infinite scrollcase, but it never got ported from DND 3.5 to Pathfinder. Probably because it wasn't in the SRD.

Its an inexpensive magic item that allows you to store up to 50 scrolls and draw any of them you want when ever you want it. I'm under the impression you can store it attached to your belt, or scrap along your back.

Infinite Scrollcase

Alternatively, you could try wearing a bandolier. It doesn't specifically say it can store scrolls, but I'm sure you can make them fit. Though, this will mean that the scrolls are exposed, but its a price you pay to put them in a quick to access spot.

Bandolier

[Diego Rossi]

eyelessgame wrote:

Retrieving a stored item (scroll case) is a move action regardless of whether it is stored in a pack, on your belt, in a _handy haversack_, in a _portable hole_, or anything else, as far as the rules are concerned - the HH just negates the attack of opportunity.

Retrieving a stored item on the top of the container is a move action. Generally, no one goes to the length of questioning the time you take to retrieve a scroll case from your backpack unless you have 20 of them in it, but if you are retrieving a specific scroll from a steamer trunk full of them finding the right one can take time.

CRB wrote:

Moving or manipulating an item is usually a move action. This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door.

To retrieve something from a portable hole you need to spread it fully on a surface, otherwise the extradimensional space isn't accessible. Then you need to pick the time from the bottom of a 10' hole (unless you have placed furnishing in the hole and it has shelves). You can't do that with a single move action.

eyelessgame wrote:

It would seem weird to have "retrieve from belt" not be a move action when "draw a weapon" is, and "retrieve a stored item" is. There isn't anything in the rules I can find that differentiates storing on your belt versus storing anywhere else, nor any limitation on how many scroll cases can be on your belt if one were to assume the belt were a privileged place.

If the scroll is in a scroll case on your belt, you don't retrieve the case first and then the scroll. You open the case and retrieve the scroll directly.

As a person's waist isn't unlimited you can put only a limited number of scrolls there, but a few choice one are fine.

eyelessgame wrote:

Where do the rules define, and limit, "on your belt"? I might have missed it. How many items can be on your belt, and what says that it is not a move action to get an item from your belt? (In addition to the rule - at least it looks like a rule to me - that says scrolls are placed in scroll cases - though the scroll box provides an explicit alternative.)

You really need a rule that says "You can put only x pouches on your belt?"

Do we need to calculate the waist size of our characters to play?

If needed, we have an example:

Quote:

Adventurer's sash

Source Adventurer's Armory 2 pg. 12, Seekers of Secrets pg. 42
Price 20 gp; Weight 3 lbs.
Category Adventuring Gear
Description
This bandolier holds six pouches along its length and a satchel at the hip. Each pouch has a stiff leather flap that can be secured against jostling with a clasp (requiring a move action to open or close) or left unfastened for easier access. The pouches and satchel contain loops and ties for securing additional equipment. The sash buckles at the shoulder, and in an emergency can be freed with a sharp tug as a move action.

[eyelessgame]

Quote:

You really need a rule that says "You can put only x pouches on your belt?"

Once the existence of a rule-based detail is established, ambiguities have to be resolved. If it is a mechanically different behavior to have an item on your belt than in your pack - if retrieving from a belt isn't the AoO-provoking move action that retrieving from a pack is - then it definitely does matter how many items can be stored in this more convenient way. Someone is going to ask "what's the limit" and I will need to give an answer.

Having beaten this to death, I still have the original question. If a scroll is in a scroll case and among a character's generic possessions (that is, assuming that one did not explicitly declare this specific scroll to have been on the character's belt or in their hand), can it be read in a single move action + standard action turn?

I've never ruled that it couldn't. But it still then bugs me that there is a rule for taking a scroll out of a scroll case ("a move action") at all, since a single "retrieve a stored item" action covers both removing the case from the pack and the scroll from the case.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Diego Rossi has a good point that you don’t need to retrieve the scroll case to take out the scroll. You don’t have to retrieve your pouch off your belt before taking something out of it, so why would a scroll case be any different? The only downside of doing this is that it may expose the scroll case to being taken. A scroll case stored on a belt would be subject to being stolen. Storing it in a backpack makes it extremely difficult for a pick pocket to swipe the scroll case.

Instead of storing the scrolls in your belt pick up a bandolier or two. Each one allows you to store up to 8 small items. If you have two bandoliers, that is 16 scrolls or other items.

[Mark Hoover 330]

eyelessgame wrote:

Having beaten this to death, I still have the original question. If a scroll is in a scroll case and among a character's generic possessions (that is, assuming that one did not explicitly declare this specific scroll to have been on the character's belt or in their hand), can it be read in a single move action + standard action turn?

I've never ruled that it couldn't. But it still then bugs me that there is a rule for taking a scroll out of a scroll case ("a move action") at all, since a single "retrieve a stored item" action covers both removing the case from the pack and the scroll from the case.

I mean, you can rule it however you want in a home game, but in the Rules forum them's the rules. There are several ways around this as we've mentioned in this thread: plan ahead and have the scroll in hand before you enter combat; store the scrollcase on your belt or in your bandolier; magic items for easy access; using a Familiar for extra actions. Or, as you said and if this is a home game, just rule that it doesn't take a Move action.

[Name Violation]

A spring loaded scroll case is only 5gp...

Quote:

Scroll case, spring loaded

Source Adventurer's Armory 2 pg. 13
Price 5 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Category Adventuring Gear
Description
This specialized scroll case can hold a single scroll and features a leather strap to hang the case from a belt or backpack. Retrieving the scroll held within is a swift action. Preparing the case for this use requires cranking the case’s tiny gears and springs into place (a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity).

[zza ni]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Diego Rossi has a good point that you don’t need to retrieve the scroll case to take out the scroll. You don’t have to retrieve your pouch off your belt before taking something out of it, so why would a scroll case be any different? The only downside of doing this is that it may expose the scroll case to being taken. A scroll case stored on a belt would be subject to being stolen. Storing it in a backpack makes it extremely difficult for a pick pocket to swipe the scroll case.

Instead of storing the scrolls in your belt pick up a bandolier or two. Each one allows you to store up to 8 small items. If you have two bandoliers, that is 16 scrolls or other items.

you technically don't even need 16 scrolls as one scroll can have as many spells scribed on it as you care to spend. it just mean the scroll is longer.

----------------

@Name Violation - i offered it way back at the start of this thread.
no1 listen\read..

[Mark Hoover 330]

zza ni wrote:

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Diego Rossi has a good point that you don’t need to retrieve the scroll case to take out the scroll. You don’t have to retrieve your pouch off your belt before taking something out of it, so why would a scroll case be any different? The only downside of doing this is that it may expose the scroll case to being taken. A scroll case stored on a belt would be subject to being stolen. Storing it in a backpack makes it extremely difficult for a pick pocket to swipe the scroll case.

Instead of storing the scrolls in your belt pick up a bandolier or two. Each one allows you to store up to 8 small items. If you have two bandoliers, that is 16 scrolls or other items.

you technically don't even need 16 scrolls as one scroll can have as many spells scribed on it as you care to spend. it just mean the scroll is longer.

----------------

@Name Violation - i offered it way back at the start of this thread.
no1 listen\read..

We listened, we read. The original question was twofold: do GMs follow the RAW that removing a scrollcase and then the scroll within is a double Move action meaning the scroll can't be read in that instance until round 2, and would a Handy Haversack allow scrolls to be carried outside their scroll case for easier acquisition?

Both of those were answered: yes it's a double Move action and yes, a Handy Haversack would allow you to carry scrolls outside their cases. Posters in the thread also gave mitigation strategies such as you and NV suggesting the springloaded scrollcase. There's also using a familiar to do it for you, moving the scrollcase to the belt, having the scroll itself made from more durable materials, carrying them outside scrollcases anyway regardless of whether or not you're using a Handy Haversack, racking several scrolls in bandoliers, etc.

Regardless of the answer on the RAW and mitigation strategies proposed the OP reconstituted something of their original question:

eyelessgame wrote:

Having beaten this to death, I still have the original question. If a scroll is in a scroll case and among a character's generic possessions (that is, assuming that one did not explicitly declare this specific scroll to have been on the character's belt or in their hand), can it be read in a single move action + standard action turn?

Here my assumption that "among a character's generic possessions" is meant to imply the scroll in its scrollcase is further contained inside a mundane (non-magical) container like a sack, satchel or backpack. In that specific instance the RAW is pretty clear: retrieving the scroll itself is a double Move action so it cannot be read in a single Move action + Standard action turn.

That's it. This is the Rules forum. The rules are that in that narrow set of circumstances it's a double Move action. If you don't want to rule that way and you're running a home game, don't rule that way. On the other hand if you want to follow the RAW, this thread is full of MANY ways the PC can get around this inconvenience.