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I’ve had an idea rattling around in my head for the last few days about how I would tackle this venerable plot hook (of the Demon Lord hanging out in Elf Land), and I figured the topic deserved a thread. I think Treerazer has hung around long enough, his defeat would be a tiny, tangible way for players to impact the setting, and it gives the elves a chance to have better material than Second Darkness.
Would you want to see it? Do you want a full six books, or would you be okay with another 11-20 like Ruby Phoenix?
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Now that I'm on my laptop, I have a brief pitch of my own: a three volume (levels 11-20), with an emphasis (but not a demand!) on elven PCs.
Volume 1 is about the wedding for Kyonin's queen and her Alijae spouse, gestured at in a few 2e texts. The event draws dignitaries from across Golarion - Aiudeen of all sorts, the snow elves of the distant north, the aquatic and Spiresworn elves of the seas, members of all three Mualijae nations, the wandering Vourinoi, and even those from far-away Jinin - as well as Kyonin's many non-elven allies. These friends of course come in handy (as the PCs) when Treerazer's forces strike the city! Evacuate the survivors to safety through the aiudara, drive off the fiends, and kill some major lieutenant of the Demon lord.
Volume 2 sees Kyonin in more need of more help than the Inner Sea can offer - and so our heroes travel through the elf-gate to the planet Castrovel, to beseech allies from the elven homeworld! Sovyrian is not without intrigues of its own, while both the Lashunta city-states and Formian hives could potentially provide aid of their own (though Kyonin may be reluctant to receive it...) if appealed to. Diplomacy and intrigue on the psychic planet!
Volume 3 sees Kyonin rallied and re-armed, with otherworldly allies in tow! A straight-forward brawl to the death against Treerazer and a grand ritual to purify the lands he's defiled provide a classic fantasy good ending for those righteous enough to earn it. A major dangling plot thread is resolved, freeing Kyonin up for other storylines in the future, while the victors get to go on to the side of the elven pantheon or are otherwise immortalized in song and poetry.
In a perfect world, these give us backmatter articles on under-detailed elven nations (the Vourinoi and Spiresworn, /please/) and on the planet Castrovel, while some nearby release brings playable Lashunta and Formians to 2e. If I'm being indulgent, I'm going all out! :p
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Taking down Treerazer sounds like an amazing concept for an 11-20.
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Ron Lundeen's Skaldwood Blight 1-20 AP is a VIking-themed take on "Against Treerazor," and it's nearly done.
That said, this 3-parter sounds good, but I'd want Keftiu's 3 parts to be parts 4-6. I'd probably start the PCs in Jinin where the rise to become that nation's eventual delegation to the wedding. Parts 2-3 would probably hit Shenmen and Kaoling or maybe Wanshou. Maybe one of those would be an infiltration or raid type mission.
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Make this and I will buy it!!!
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I lean more toward a three-parter AP mostly because I don't think I could do, or convince my playgroups to do, elves elves elves for all twenty levels. Ancestry: the Adventure Path isn't a concept I'm terribly interested in, and with how important Treerazor is to the elves, that's what such an AP sounds like it'd become.
You don't need an all-elven party by any means. Kyonin dispatched experienced Tanglebriar demonslayers to Mendev at points - all that would need to happen to justify PCs from non-elven peoples is Mendev deciding to return the favor or mercenary ex-crusaders following their comrades to another battlefield (there are still demons in Sarkoris, of course, but Telandia likely pays better than the Reclaimers, having the tax revenue of a state to draw upon).
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I lean more toward a three-parter AP mostly because I don't think I could do, or convince my playgroups to do, elves elves elves for all twenty levels. Ancestry: the Adventure Path isn't a concept I'm terribly interested in, and with how important Treerazor is to the elves, that's what such an AP sounds like it'd become.You don't need an all-elven party by any means. Kyonin dispatched experienced Tanglebriar demonslayers to Mendev at points - all that would need to happen to justify PCs from non-elven peoples is Mendev deciding to return the favor or mercenary ex-crusaders following their comrades to another battlefield (there are still demons in Sarkoris, of course, but Telandia likely pays better than the Reclaimers, having the tax revenue of a state to draw upon).
Lost Omens: Legends mentions a defense treaty between Kyonin and the Five Kings Mountains, along with Telandia’s ties to both Galt’s leader and (to a lesser extent) the empress of Taldor. The new Knights of Lastwall mentions that a detachment is in Kyonin, explicitly working at the issue of the Tanglebriar and Treerazer.
Plenty of non-elves could be PCs, is what I’m saying.
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Plenty of non-elves could be PCs, is what I’m saying.
I entirely agree, though color me skeptical that even the Five Kings Mountains' commitments (certainly not Galt's or Taldor's, which do not exist as such - it is merely their monarchs/quasi-monarchs who have decent personal relationships with Kyonin's) extend so far as ensuring Kyonin's territorial integrity through the reintegration of Tanglebriar. That's not a commitment any of Kyonin's neighbors wants or needs and Kyonin has no means to entice or compel them to agree to such a thing. Which is to say that non-elven PCs would be participating in this little adventure on their own hook, and not as representatives of governments.
IMC, Treerazer has taken control of one of the Aiudara, which leads from the Tanglebriar to Andoran. It was inadvertently opened (from the Andoran side) by the PCs who didn't know what it was, having been misled into it by a bunch of cultists.
So you could use that sort of start to initiate the AP at any level, anywhere. The PCs might open it themselves, or they might stumble across the cult, then the demons getting out, and then the gate itself (and maybe seal it temporarily). It might become a sequence of hopping about the planet wasting cultists and demons, and sealing gates before they get taken over. Then to Kyonin for politics, the Tanglebriar and Treerazer himself.
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Ron Lundeen's Skaldwood Blight 1-20 AP is a VIking-themed take on "Against Treerazor," and it's nearly done.
This sounded great, until I saw Owen's name attached to it. He still hasn't fully delivered on his 52 in 52 project, so I will remain extremely wary of any other project he puts out while asking for the money upfront.
Neither Owen nor Ron have any unfulfilled Kickstarter campaigns to their name, so this timeframe is carefully considered and realistic, but we want to make it clear to everyone that the PF2 version will arrive well before the PF1 conversion.
The sheer audacity of putting the above quote on the Kickstarter page is astounding. While technically true (Open Gaming Store, where the 52 in 52 project was funded, isn't a Kickstarter, though the funds were all given upfront), it is quite deceiving.
Since Ron wrote it and Owen is apparently just the publisher, I will take a look at reviews when it is available to the public, but it sure will need to be mightily impressive for me to even consider sending any money its way.
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Stumbled across the Lantern Bearers section in the Adventurer’s Guide while looking up something else, and was pleasant surprised to see them both welcoming non-elves into their ranks and pivoting from the drow to Treerazer. They make a natural excuse for motley parties!
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Stumbled across the Lantern Bearers section in the Adventurer’s Guide while looking up something else, and was pleasant surprised to see them both welcoming non-elves into their ranks and pivoting from the drow to Treerazer. They make a natural excuse for motley parties!
There are any number of better excuses than "facelifted racism factory."
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With the product page for Gatewalkers #1 up, it seems I got the most important part of this made real… :p
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There was mention in the Secrets of Golarion stream about wanting to get around to Treerazer and Kyonin, the same way they finally got around to resolving Galt’s whole deal in an Adventure. Here’s hoping!
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There was mention in the Secrets of Golarion stream about wanting to get around to Treerazer and Kyonin, the same way they finally got around to resolving Galt’s whole deal in an Adventure. Here’s hoping!
Hey! That was my question! Was really happy James responded.
I found the mention of Night of the Gray Death to be really fun. I'm running my group through it right now and they are having a blast. More really thicc standalone adventures that go hard on a specific thing would be awesome.
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While this is a personal thing, It would be hard to sell me on a very elf-centric AP. I know others feel exactly the same way about a very dwarf-centric AP, which is a thing I'd love.
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While this is a personal thing, It would be hard to sell me on a very elf-centric AP. I know others feel exactly the same way about a very dwarf-centric AP, which is a thing I'd love.
Depends on the dwarves. Five Kings? Not so much. Almost any of the Garundi dwarven cultures? I’m there in a heartbeat.
I’d love to hear your pitch if you have one!
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There was mention in the Secrets of Golarion stream about wanting to get around to Treerazer and Kyonin, the same way they finally got around to resolving Galt’s whole deal in an Adventure. Here’s hoping!
Hopefully it's an AP. NotGD was very well done, but the villain isn't a Demon Lord. A Demon Lord warrants an AP.
I feel like one of the problems with a "let's go beat up Treerazer" AP is that the tools to make PCs stand a chance in that fight (something like Mythic) don't exist yet.
Treerazer, as a level 25 monster, is a very hard fight for 20th level characters (24 is "an extreme challenge solo boss" for a party of 4 level 20 adventurers), one that most parties will not survive. In the AP you're kind of supposed to win. I think the highest level enemy we've seen in an AP was level 24, and that was in Ruby Phoenix which had a high level of optimization since you didn't need to have a playable character for the first ten levels.
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I feel like if you're not squaring off the biggest, baddest thing in the Bestiary and winning it's going to be kind of a letdown.
I feel like one of the problems with a "let's go beat up Treerazer" AP is that the tools to make PCs stand a chance in that fight (something like Mythic) don't exist yet.
This is what artifacts are for. As uber-powerful plot devices, they have one purpose: to act as the McGuffin that unlocks an otherwise impossible challenge.
It doesn't have to be an artifact per se (it could be involving Cyth-V'sug instead) but if the PCs are to be front and centre in the final battle, they need to be the prime movers rather than a sideshow.
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I feel like one of the problems with a "let's go beat up Treerazer" AP is that the tools to make PCs stand a chance in that fight (something like Mythic) don't exist yet.
Treerazer, as a level 25 monster, is a very hard fight for 20th level characters (24 is "an extreme challenge solo boss" for a party of 4 level 20 adventurers), one that most parties will not survive. In the AP you're kind of supposed to win. I think the highest level enemy we've seen in an AP was level 24, and that was in Ruby Phoenix which had a high level of optimization since you didn't need to have a playable character for the first ten levels.
Treerazer is very beatable for a level 20 party. It has very exploitable weaknesses. The weakness to good and cold iron makes it so it has defenses like paper.
A single enemy is a much lower threat to a level 20 party than at lower levels.
The bonuses and penalties you can stack up are crazy at this point (heroism +2 or +3), aid (+4), flanking (+2), status debuff (+1-3).
Of course an unexpecting, uncoordinated group is probably gonna struggle a lot but I think if you buff the hell out of a group you'll run the risk of the boss turning out to be a joke as well.
That does assume that you catch him on his own, on ground not of his choosing, when he can't prepare. And whilst not of Runelord intellect, he's no idiot.
I've been working on a sandbox Kyonin/Treerazer AP for like....a decade now. Getting somewhere...(laughs nervously like Ralph Wiggum). I aspire to release it on Infinite at some point.
Main Villains are Treerazer, Whispering Way, and Aspis Consortium. Winter Council is gone, replaced by a progressive (but still corrupt) Evergreen Council. Plenty of Lantern Bearers, Fierani Demon hunters, and Wasp Queens...
Adventuring party begins as Pathfinder Initiates on their first test.
Part I, the PCs are racing against time to find Candlaron's key, before the Aspis Consortium. Created from the same tech as aiudara, it is effectively a Sovyrian Wayfinder that can send you anywhere in space and time.
Part II, the PCs uncover a plot by a foul necromancer of the Whispering Way to link the Sovyrian stone to the undead planet Eox, to muster a planetary scale invasion of undead.
Part III, is razing the Witchbole and confronting Treerazer.
As for his defeat? Don't worry. There's a Sphere of Annihilation in Arabrecht. The only question is: where is the GM hiding the Talisman of the Sphere?
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With the recent soft-announcement of more three-part APs, I figured this thread was worth kicking again, if only because it feels like a natural fit for an 11-20. After having Treerazer lurking for all of Pathfinder's history, I'm keen to kick his butt!
While this is a personal thing, It would be hard to sell me on a very elf-centric AP. I know others feel exactly the same way about a very dwarf-centric AP, which is a thing I'd love.
Congratulations on the gift of prophecy :D
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What announcement?
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What announcement?
Sky King’s Throne, the third AP of next year, is another three-parter, making 2023 the first year without a six-book AP in it. This has been accompanied by a fair bit of staff talk about how the later books in six-volume campaigns have a pretty steep drop off in sales, and that the three book releases have been doing better.
Six books of elf stuff is a big ask, but three feels more plausible - especially given that the dwarves are getting that spotlight next year! I’m excited for how much elven content does seem to be coming in Gatewalkers, though.
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Yeah, if we're doing "books with a theme that might not appeal to everybody" doing either a 1-10 or a 11-20 depending on which fits best is a great idea.
Developer
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Yeah, if we're doing "books with a theme that might not appeal to everybody" doing either a 1-10 or a 11-20 depending on which fits best is a great idea.
The reality is, any given AP might not appeal to everybody. It's just a risk we take when we're dreaming up what adventures to put our efforts into.
That said, the push towards three-book APs has successful so far and is likely to continue. They're a more manageable scale for gaming groups to get behind than six-book APs. Sometimes a storyline works better in three books than it does in six. Recently I had a pitch for a six-book AP that, after some discussion, could really do just fine as a three-book AP AND leave more room on the schedule for other, different ideas. (no, I won't tell you what it was, lol)
From a personal standpoint, a six-book AP can feel like a slog after a while where you're just trying to get to the end so you can play that other new thing that released that you're excited about. A three-book AP can give you a "long term feel" without a multi-year commitment. I'm a huge fan of them.
Although, the six-book format is still one we're familiar with, so don't be surprised if you see them again, especially if a story warrants it.
I'm also getting excited for the standalone adventures line and the sorts of stories we get to tell when even a three-book AP is too much, but you need more room than just... say... a one-shot or PFS scenario.
Suffice to say the future of Pathfinder adventures is bright, with lots of variety for many different interests.
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FWIW, I'm really excited about the three book style of adventures. I have yet to complete a six book adventure path, but my group and I have powered through Abomination Vaults and Quest for the Frozen Flame. Each adventure is about 6-8 months for us, which hits a sweet spot of attention span.
(Incidentally, we would all LOVE a hard copy of Quest if anyone is still listening...)
I would think a lot of first edition adventure paths would benefit from a trimming (Serpent's Skull, Mummy's Mask, and Jade Regent spring to mind from memory of reading them), if they ever were to get a Kingmaker style remake for second edition.