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Good morning everyone o/
So, after a long, LONG pause from Pathfinder 2e, me and my party are debating making a party exclusively of dwarves that dreams of colonizing the Fog Peaks (between Galt and Taldor). We call the group The Dwarven Hand, we use fingers as codenames. We're, peharps, too open to options, and since everybody went with "I can play whatever" we're lacking "directions". This is because we're more into learning to love the character as we see them grow, instead of bringing to the game something we already love.
This is what we want:
- Fingers: We plan to max out one characteristic (which is easy in this system) according to the position: the Little will have max Dex, the Ring max Int, the Middle max Str, the Index max Wis and the Thumb max Cha (yes, a Cha focused dwarf, the leader/ruler of the enclave they're dreaming to build);
- Baruk Khazad: We fight melee. Even the casters. Dwarves can have weapons and critical specializations from their race feats. I heard gossip about a Magical Strike build, although I don't fully understand it (since I didn't read it XD);
- Full party: Five is a big number. We should be able to do everything out of combat: face skills, survival to find the way, disable all traps.
We'll be some do-gooders until we can face the dangers of Fog Peaks and gather other frontier dwarves to join us. We'll try to keep the dwarf-theme going (for instance, a Wizard or Witch would be a Rivethun adept, etc.)
I'd love to hear your bright ideas and suggestions, since in Fog Peaks there are derros, rocs, ice trolls, ice giants (one of which has a vorpal axe), remorhaz, frost worms, white dragons (3 of which are famous), a magic prison from Galt, an unknown magic tower and more.
Thanks in advance!
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Can't give you hints about the lore stuff since I frankly know nothing about that region. But here's the classes I would use:
Strength: Champion. With even your casters being in melee, you absolutely want the means to protect them.
Dexterity: Rogue Thief. Maybe using his clan dagger as his main weapon. Covers scouting, traps/locks and general skill-monkey-ness.
Int: Wizard. I'd say Runelord for the melee part, but I assume that won't work with the lore. Could go Witch if you want another tradition but I feel Wizard will be better overall. Can cover knowledge checks and could be the party crafter. Should absolutely get Sentinel for defense.
Wisdom: Cleric, Warpriest. Hits, heals, supports. Since this is probably a high wisdom build, not a high charisma one, he can provide some control via Cast Down.
Charisma: Bard. You can't have a party of 5 melee characters and NOT bring a bard.
That's a pretty basic party, admittedly. But that's kind of the beauty of it. Everyone knows exactly what the others are capable of and the teamwork should fall in place without a second thought.
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Little - Ranger
Ring - Wizard (champion dedication) [I have a bias toward this build]
Middle - Fighter (champion dedication)
Index - Druid of Stone Order
Thumb - Battle Oracle (maybe champion dedication)
This will be pretty sick by 6th level. All those Champion's reactions covering each others' tender parts.
This will be pretty sick by 6th level. All those Champion's reactions covering each others' tender parts.Little - Ranger
Ring - Wizard (champion dedication) [I have a bias toward this build]
Middle - Fighter (champion dedication)
Index - Druid of Stone Order
Thumb - Battle Oracle (maybe champion dedication)
Mmmm! I loooove the tender parts of Dwarves!
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I'll try, inspired by Leo above.
Little - Champion with Investigator dedication for skills
Ring - Wizard with Champion dedication
Middle - Champion, maybe with Barbarian dedication
Index - Warpriest with Shillelagh and Champion dedication
Thumb - Bard with Champion dedication
They can even follow 5 different dwarven deities : say Torag, Angradd, Folgrit, Bolka and Grundinnar or Trudd
Won't it be difficult for dwarves to get the 14 CHA for champion multiclass? Especially since they want to max out another ability score?
Yes, much too hard, and it overlooks the benefit of a dump stat.
AND the casters will need to keep up Str & Con to succeed in melee (which frankly might look good, but it's never going to really be their thing).Plus with all that dumped Dex, they'll struggle at ranged combat, something I'd expect a lot of in the given terrain.
That said, the Str PC should definitely be a Champion and the Charisma one a Bard if trying to make this "non-melee classes in melee" thing work. Warpriest (w/ Sentinel, maybe Bastion) seems best for Wis and Dex shouts Thief, so there's that. Biggest trouble is 18 Int + melee = user error (and heck, with that Int the PC should know they don't belong there!)
If Baruk Khazad allows for ranged weapons, I'd go that direction with the casters. Since the phrase regards axes, I'd think at minimum that throwing Hatchets would suffice for the casters (and hopefully everyone's not limited to axes, leaving room perhaps for hammers (w/ better increments) or even bows too). And then there's Hand of the Apprentice, making that proficiency w/ a weapon they're bad at actually worthwhile (if only intermittently).
Note that this group would also need to develop ranged capabilities if there's a lot of outside combat.
Also note that clan daggers are not finesse, so don't work well on Dex build.
And hopefully Baruk Khazad could be interpreted as all Dwarves being in the thick of combat, armored and armed, yet perhaps not attacking with said weapon when their max stat and best proficiencies lie elsewhere. Otherwise some PCs will have a major handicap while others don't.
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Biggest trouble is 18 Int + melee = user error
Inventor? Investigator? Mastermind Rogue? Heck, you can build a melee Alchemist with 18 Int if you really want.
(And yes, the mastermind should probably go with Dex as his key ability score. But one could do Int.)
I've also played a witch in melee. The results were about as "good" as expected, but for a caster who just wants to have a backup, it can work fine if you get your expectations right.
Thanks all for the great suggestions and points.
I guess I should went with "Khazad ai-menu", since they'll be in melee, but not necessary with axes only.
I had no idea gears and guns was out, just bought it, I'll read it after work. See how this inventor works out.
The group are brainstorming ideas like "let's have a couple focused on tripping foes, and the others smash when they're prone". Or things like "let the buffers buff, debuffers debuff and casters explode at ranged before we charge together on the second turn".
It needs not be a min-max thing, but we would like if it was at least "good".
Do keep the suggestions coming, I'm loving it.
Biggest trouble is 18 Int + melee = user errorInventor? Investigator? Mastermind Rogue? Heck, you can build a melee Alchemist with 18 Int if you really want.
(And yes, the mastermind should probably go with Dex as his key ability score. But one could do Int.)
I've also played a witch in melee. The results were about as "good" as expected, but for a caster who just wants to have a backup, it can work fine if you get your expectations right.
My bad, I'd had my mind on casters, as in 6-h.p. squishies.
Inventor's solid (and IMO quite fitting for the campaign!). The others struggle in melee, but this group could have the synergy to make them work too. I'd never recommend Alchemist for somebody seeking advice, since that class requires an atypical playstyle and more system mastery than most.Oh, and Monk for the Dex build; adds some mobility to a group lacking it. With a Champion that'd be two of the best defenders possible, alongside perhaps a Bard & Warpriest, making for a really rough nut to crack.
Riffing off some of the ideas:
STR: Champion (partial to either Paladin because Torag or Liberator for extra movement/positioning since dwarves are often slow. Might give a bit of a battlefield commander vibe with Redmeer))
DEX: Ranger (Probably precision, might stay away from animal companions since its going to be crowded already in the melee. But if you wanted to stick with tripping/etc, that might help)
INT: Inventor (probably Armor since it feels more dwarfy)
WIS: Druid (storm, stone, or wild all have fun things to play with. I'd probably order explorer into one extra one -- avoiding animal for the same reason mentioned under Ranger)
CHA: Sorcerer (draconic, wanted an arcane list, and claws/breath work well in melee (more interesting than Imperial))
-- Basically I really like the idea of an Inventor in the group, but pushes an arcane caster, if any, to the CHA stat (or a Magus -- but I think the Champion is an exceptional strong choice for the party). You could go Dex Magus in place of the Ranger, to get some arcane that way and then switch the sorcerer to a bard. That gets a little caster heavy though.
A wild morph/shape druid definitely sounds more fun to play in melee than most clerics. And grabbing storms' retribution from storm order could work really well.
Not really specifying expected dedications -- kinda thinking you can play that be ear after you see what gaps the party has in practice. Throwing a Wizard dedication on the Inventor, if you can make it fit for RP purposes might open up some useful utility spells that the sorceror doesn't want to waste a limited repertoire on, for instance.
There might be some poor skill/attribute alignments with that party though -- thematically the champion should have religion, the sorceror should have arcana. Which aren't going to align with attributes they're likely to boost (much). I don't really see the inventor taking Society even though it will be a good aligned skill, etc. There's definitely no natural occultist. But I can kinda see that becoming a defining feature or running gag for the group. "All that weird stuff just isn't real."
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Real brief - make sure your party can deal damage, mitigate damage, give bonuses to allies, penalize enemies modifiers, increase your actions, deny enemies' actions. That's the PF2 meta as I see it.
DEX: Thief Rouge w/ Medic Dedication
INT: Armor Wizard or Investigator
WIS: Druid or Armor Cleric
CHA: Bard, Battle Oracle or Sorcerer of a tradition you don't have
For variant rules, I recommend Ancestry Paragon and Gradual Ability Boosts (important for gishes). Consider Free Archetype to makes sure everyone has weapons and armor needed for melee. Consider adjusting Ancestry Boosts and Flaws so that your CHA players aren't hosed.
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The 18 Int dwarf wiz champion will be...not doable. Unfortunate. It could sentinel though. Then it doesn't have to worry about the Cha.
From personal experience at least two champions reaction on a team is pretty handy.
A pick fighter is good.
Having dabbled a little in earth/stone things with the primal list and stone order druid, I think there is some fun to be had therein with a character more focused.
I went battle oracle because it is a little different. Mostly though because I, personally, have never been able to get into the flavor of a bard.
Well when you say team dwarf I immediately think of 4 characters with Defy the Darkness and a Shadow Sorcerer. Or maybe you could all start with fire resistance.
Anyway I think you should stick with your theme.
Dex Rogue (Thief)
Str 10 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 8
Basic equipment: Leather, Short Sword, Bow
Class Feats: Level 1:Trap Finder, Level 2: Magus Dedication for cantrips Shield, Gouging Claw, Level 4: Spellstriker, Level 6: Gang Up, Level 8: Opportune Backstab, but Sidestep is also great, Level 10: Precise Debilitation, Level 12: Preparation, Level 14: Leave an Opening
Int Toolbox
A professional wizard, you've done your research and equipped yourself with everything you need. No problem is insurmountable. It's all about the right tool for the job.
Str 10 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 18 Wis 14 Cha 8
Basic equipment: Breastplate, Staff of Evocation, Ring of Wizardry
Arcane Thesis: Spell Blending for as many top level spells as you can
Arcane School: Evocation, Focus Spell: Force Bolt which is a good damage top up.
Class Feats: Level 2: Sentinel, Level 4: Enhanced Familiar (Valet ), Level 6: Alchemist Dedication, Level 8: Expert Alchemy, Level 10: Scroll Savant, Level 12:Master Alchemy, Level 14: Bonded Focus, Level 16: Effortless Concentration,
Skills: Arcana, Crafting
Skill Feats: Steel Skin, and Armor Specialist effective and gets out of the archetype faster, Inventor, Prescient Planner and Prescient Consumable just seem to fit the concept too.
Some spell suggestions: You can afford to use cones a bit more than the average wizard as you are better armoured, but don’t think you are front line material. The familiar is to help hand you scrolls and potions efficiently.
Str I'd try a more control based Fighter
Keeps a hand free to grapple, trip and shove.
Str 18 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 8
Basic equipment: Breastplate or Full Plate, Dwarven Axe so you can just go two handed for the extra damage when that's what is needed.
Class Feats: Level 1: Snagging Strike, Level 2: Dueling Parry Level 6: Guardian's Deflection Level 8:Dueling Riposte, Level 12 Dueling Dance
Skills: Athletics
Wis Flame Druid (sure a cloister cleric of Sarenrae with Champion dedication is nice) but take a couple of heal spells and the medicine skill, you'll be fine.
The forest burns and regrows its part of the natural cycle. Removing old forest makes way for fresh growth and improves diversity. A bit of back burning here and there is good for the forest. Just as long as it's not out of control. This philosophy does occur in some real world native cultures like Australian Aboriginal but it’s not going to be shared by all Druids.
To get this to work well you have to take the Goblin feat Burn it for this, via Adopted Ancestry. The key is the focus spell Wildfire, a sustainable area effect fire damage in an expanding area. To work well it requires you to invest in control powers to slow their movement. It’s better if you have room to move or have a choke point you can defend. Lose the Path becomes hilarious.
Str 12 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 18 Cha 8
Basic equipment: Hide Armor, Handwraps of Mighty Blows
Class Feats: Level 1: Fire Lung free with your order for Wildfire , Level 2: Order Explorer for Wave Order, Level 4: Order Explorer for Wild Order, Level 6: Advanced Elemental Spell for Pulverizing Cascade and Combustion , Level 8: Ferocious Shape, Level 10:Overwhelming Energy, Level 12: Primal Focus, Level 14:, Level 16: Effortless Concentration
Skills: Nature, Stealth, Acrobatics, Survival, Medicine ….
Cha Occult Sorcerer. Darkness is your friend. Why because Bards get tiresome to play after a while. At least you get to use your spells.
With Dim the Light you have some pretty good options to Stealth.
Str 8 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 14 Cha 18
Basic equipment: Bracers of Armor,
Bloodline: Shadow
Class Feats: Level 2: Familiar, Level 4: Occult Evolution, Level 6: Advanced Bloodline for Steal Shadow, Level 8: Shadowdancer Dedication Level 10: Greater Bloodline for Consuming Darkness; Level 12: Bloodline Focus, Level 14:; Level 16: Greater Vital Evolution
Skills: Stealth, Deception