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I'm thinking of running a game, but I see we still have too few GMs to meet the player demands.
So if I run a game, I want to either;
reward the Forever GMs with being a player, but also need to GM a bit.
or
run one game, and the other players/GMs have to either run separate games, or cooperate and make a campaign with each taking turns.
in the above, everyone would take roles as Player and GM.
The first Option above, is a AP, while the second option is more running modules, or short adventures, and a opportunity for those that want to try their hand at GMing.
As I want to start incentivising the creation of GMs, and or reward those that have been GMing for a long time without the chance to play as a player.
As one can not GM forever, and if too few replace the exhausted or missing GMs, the problem will just get worse.
So this is my answer to the GM shortage, while having as much fun playing as possible.
So I need an answer, which path do I take?
I personally like the second option "run one game, and the other players/GMs have to either run separate games, or cooperate and make a campaign with each taking turns"
As I can't seem to get into games as a player right now I wouldn't mind playing and GM'ing. I would prefer doing one-off adventures rather than co-GM'ing an Adventure Path only because I haven't GM'd but one time, in the car, on the way to an RPG weekend getaway. And I had players who took advantage of my newbie-ness.
So SURE!! :)
Yeah the AP I was planning was CotCT, but with a nice twist for creative GMs.
So far two votes for the more module route and for new comers to try their hand at GMing.
I have a collection of short adventures made by WotC, that they gave from free, and likely be completed in under 500 posts.
I've been working on a PbP campaign the past few weeks -- that is, working on an 'odd' or 'eccentric' game that would never take preference over my Sunday homegame that is more of a 'stick-to-the-Material-Plane' / 'do-standard-adventuring-stuff' kinda game.
I have some prep to do this week for my Sunday game but I was looking at starting a Recruitment next week.
Getting a chance to play in CotCT again -- it's been a decade -- is very intriguing.
And, I assume since you're planning on running CotCT for DMs and you're including "nice twists for...DMs" that it's okay if I've played through CotCT before.
I will say though, that if my business gets too busy that it would be the playing in CotCT that I would have to drop, not my own PbP.
Anyway, next week (likely Wednesday 30 March) Sheila Heidmarch will be recruiting a group of 8th Level PFS adventurers to do a quick mission in Korvosa -- that will lead to The Nine Hells and then a whole campaign in The Abyss. (But I have to get some prep done for my Sunday homegame first.
And CotCT (again) sounds fun!
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Yes, CotCT is the AP and it'll start with a twist, and allow for more creative characters, though with limits.
There would be one rule, each player/GM will run at least 1 book of the AP.
I'd be running the first book the get the twists in.
Then the next GM can add their twists to the book they run, but still have to keep book one's twists alive.
The reason for this Rule is that I will burn out doing a Whole AP, but no so if everyone took a turn.
Curse of the Crimson Throne? I would love to play that one. But, I don’t think I can take on another game as a GM. I’m pretty sure I’d burn out. I’m only GMing one, but still, yeah.
again, you don't GM the whole thing, just one Book, if it is the AP route.
The fact everyone takes a turn is to avoid one burning out as much as possible.
The GMing load is shared along the players.
I'm running the first Book, so no load at the start, but someone will take on the second book.
At that time maybe another GM's game is coming to an end and they take the mantle for the next book.
Only maybe like 3 APs on play by post made it to completion. My Mummies Mask was one of them and it lasted almost 3 years. If the AP thing will work, players will have to stick with you for a long time. Or run modules instead.
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Only maybe like 3 APs on play by post made it to completion. My Mummies Mask was one of them and it lasted almost 3 years. If the AP thing will work, players will have to stick with you for a long time. Or run modules instead.
And DG sticks it out to the end no matter how annoying I er I mean the player is! :)
Hmm. This might be slightly off-topic, but on the GM Shortage issue, maybe those smaller modules you were talking about could be kind of a DM Training round.
People apply to have you coach them through running something fairly short... and once they have done that, they are allowed to apply for a reward game. Or no reward, just the coaching as a reward unto itself.
A lot of players are just frightened of trying to DM, so something like a DM training module with other people that also want to try in a safer environment could get people started.
... as far as the forever DMs that keep running games here, I think they deserve a chance to play more as well, but that could be mixed up in the whole thing. They could have guaranteed spots in the training games, and then also to sign up for training you have to agree to prioritize the addition of the people who helped you learn in your first few games... which actually would benefit both sides. The new DM who is going to be nervous *wants* someone like that there to get advice from, and the forever DM has a chance to kick back and play... I mean, answer a question now and then too, but much less stress than planning the whole thing.
... personally, I have only DMed really small things for family, in-person, and I am very intimidated by the the idea of the whole thing, so that is the perspective I am writing from, so I am not sure if my perspective of the long-term DMs is accurate. Maybe training would just be extra work piled on top?
Yes, CotCT is the AP and it'll start with a twist, and allow for more creative characters, though with limits.
There would be one rule, each player/GM will run at least 1 book of the AP.
I'd be running the first book the get the twists in.
Then the next GM can add their twists to the book they run, but still have to keep book one's twists alive.The reason for this Rule is that I will burn out doing a Whole AP, but no so if everyone took a turn.
I would personally prefer to run an AP with everyone GMing one book. I actually own CotCT but I've never read it lol. I like the idea of an AP because I'd want to keep using my same character.
I'm at the awkward stage where I want to start a Kingmaker game and I'm over halfway done prepping materials but I keep telling myself to wait until my Ruins of Alzant table gets to the next and final book. My only pbp game is the one I'm GMing so I've been itching to join another game. I'm sure other GMs can relate to the itch of wanting another game. I think my problem is that I'm a bit of a perfectionist and I'm picky.
One thing to note: gestalt is a hard pass for me.
Only maybe like 3 APs on play by post made it to completion. My Mummies Mask was one of them and it lasted almost 3 years. If the AP thing will work, players will have to stick with you for a long time. Or run modules instead.
Most APs also have GM replacement and player replacement due to their length.
With GM replacement being the harder hitter for an AP, and most GMs just burn out running a whole AP.
Hmm. This might be slightly off-topic, but on the GM Shortage issue, maybe those smaller modules you were talking about could be kind of a DM Training round.
People apply to have you coach them through running something fairly short... and once they have done that, they are allowed to apply for a reward game. Or no reward, just the coaching as a reward unto itself.
A lot of players are just frightened of trying to DM, so something like a DM training module with other people that also want to try in a safer environment could get people started.
... as far as the forever DMs that keep running games here, I think they deserve a chance to play more as well, but that could be mixed up in the whole thing. They could have guaranteed spots in the training games, and then also to sign up for training you have to agree to prioritize the addition of the people who helped you learn in your first few games... which actually would benefit both sides. The new DM who is going to be nervous *wants* someone like that there to get advice from, and the forever DM has a chance to kick back and play... I mean, answer a question now and then too, but much less stress than planning the whole thing.
... personally, I have only DMed really small things for family, in-person, and I am very intimidated by the the idea of the whole thing, so that is the perspective I am writing from, so I am not sure if my perspective of the long-term DMs is accurate. Maybe training would just be extra work piled on top?
That is why I'm aimming to run my next game like this, I want to incentivise the creation of New GMs and or reward the Forever GM with a chance to play again.
The Second one is a GM training ground, new GMs get to learn the GM ropes and tricks from another GM.
The First one give the many Forever GMs a chance to play an AP quickly, even if they have to run one Book of it.
Yes, CotCT is the AP and it'll start with a twist, and allow for more creative characters, though with limits.
There would be one rule, each player/GM will run at least 1 book of the AP.
I'd be running the first book the get the twists in.
Then the next GM can add their twists to the book they run, but still have to keep book one's twists alive.The reason for this Rule is that I will burn out doing a Whole AP, but no so if everyone took a turn.
I would personally prefer to run an AP with everyone GMing one book. I actually own CotCT but I've never read it lol. I like the idea of an AP because I'd want to keep using my same character, especially if you get the right group.
I'm at the awkward stage where I want to start a Kingmaker game and I'm over halfway done prepping materials but I keep telling myself to wait until my Ruins of Alzant table gets to the next and final book. My only pbp game is the one I'm GMing so I've been itching to join another game. I'm sure other GMs can relate to the itch of wanting another game. I think my problem is that I'm a bit of a perfectionist and I'm picky.
One thing to note: gestalt is a hard pass for me.
Oh yeah, watch out Kingmaker can be a real beast to GM since it has little to no player railroading.
And I agree APs are great in that you really get to see a character develop over a long adventure.Furthermore I understand that itch, as I've had it for pretty much the past 10 years, but where I was a player tended to die off because I focused more on the games I was GMing, since I was responsible for Running the game and made the commitment to my players.
Part of me is foaming at the mouth to call 'dibs' on CotCT vol.2 "Seven Days to the Grave." But something has to push Reason rather than Emotion to the front of my brain.
I'm planning on starting a Recruitment Thread (as I mentioned earlier) the end of March and that will take a lot of my free time. Thinking about it this past twenty-four hours, I've decided I can do it, but,... I'd want to shorten "Seven Days to the Grave" a little bit; cut out a small bit here or there and reduce the time-burden on me.
Having thought about it, I'm going to Pass on being a Player in this game. But I can DM "Seven Days to the Grave" for y'all if I can truncate it a bit. And,...
I will add this, if this works, when y'all reach vol.5 "Skeletons of Scarwall," I'd like to play a PC! I remember playing through that and having the time of my life, waiting to read the module after the campaign so I could use the material myself as DM. And I always wanted a chance to play through it again. ...Plus, when we played through CotCT a decade ago, the DM was getting a bit burnt-out on DMing (He only agreed to DM at all so that I could have a break.) and we were all kinda ready to move on to the next campaign. As such, he cut out about half of vol.6 "Crown of Fangs" and we rushed through it pretty quickly.
Anyway -- I'll keep an eye on things here and am volunteering myself to DM vol.2 "Seven Days to the Grave" for whomever shows up to play. ....
....
If you want to give a good twist to the Muder-hobo PCs, I believe "CritCrab", or "All things DnD" may have a video for you where you can steal an idea from....
one that may make then re-think about being murder-hobos in future games.
Part of me is foaming at the mouth to call 'dibs' on CotCT vol.2 "Seven Days to the Grave." But something has to push Reason rather than Emotion to the front of my brain.
I'm planning on starting a Recruitment Thread (as I mentioned earlier) the end of March and that will take a lot of my free time. Thinking about it this past twenty-four hours, I've decided I can do it, but,... I'd want to shorten "Seven Days to the Grave" a little bit; cut out a small bit here or there and reduce the time-burden on me.
Having thought about it, I'm going to Pass on being a Player in this game. But I can DM "Seven Days to the Grave" for y'all if I can truncate it a bit. And,...
I will add this, if this works, when y'all reach vol.5 "Skeletons of Scarwall," I'd like to play a PC! I remember playing through that and having the time of my life, waiting to read the module after the campaign so I could use the material myself as DM. And I always wanted a chance to play through it again. ...Plus, when we played through CotCT a decade ago, the DM was getting a bit burnt-out on DMing (He only agreed to DM at all so that I could have a break.) and we were all kinda ready to move on to the next campaign. As such, he cut out about half of vol.6 "Crown of Fangs" and we rushed through it pretty quickly.
That could work, though I'd like it if we kept all the players from the start to the finish, as I find that after X new-comers/replacements join the game starts falling apart.
I'll also be applying a patch to fix the increasingly slower combat that happens during higher levels in the game.
Oh some of them will give you a laugh, at how well either the GM or player thought of something.
Here are two of Crit Crabs early and good videos
Player outsmarts GM and Party
Angry DM Kills Cheater
and a few good ones from All Things DnD
How The DM Sowed Seeds Of Deception To Completely Fool The Party
How A Player Turned Out To Be The Secret BBEG Of The Session
How A Fat Drunken Monk Beat The Demon Lord
Assassin Makes The Paladin Question His Morals With A Single Phrase
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I'm sort of in the same place as Zanbabe. I've played a lot here, but only attempted to DM a couple of times here running APs. Those didn't last long since I quickly got overwhelmed by it. It's left me a little gun shy about trying again.
I feel like I should be giving back something here by this point, but I could really use some help with how to prep as a DM. I'd be up for some training or coaching in some format.
I'm sort of in the same place as Zanbabe. I've played a lot here, but only attempted to DM a couple of times here running APs. Those didn't last long since I quickly got overwhelmed by it. It's left me a little gun shy about trying again.
I feel like I should be giving back something here by this point, but I could really use some help with how to prep as a DM. I'd be up for some training or coaching in some format.
yeah, APs for beginners, bad idea.
low level modules are a much better start.One module I always recommend for new GMs is Hollow's Last Hope.
As it is a short module with lots of potential for expansion, even has follow on modules, and should clock in around 1.5K to 3K in posts, depending on how it is run.
The bundle of modules for the second option include adventures that should be completed in 500 posts, perfect for a starting GM.
Sample running of one of those short adventurers
I've tried training new GMs before.
I'll try to think of a way for option one and two to run at the same time, but with a likely compromise.
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Yeah, I have Hollow's Last Hope and I believe all the associated modules, but only thought of them after the AP debacles.
I also have Sandpoint: Light of the Lost Coast, which has a bunch of quests NPCs can hand out. I've also considered doing a non-AP Sandpoint centered Lost Coast game using those with maybe a few side trips to places like Magnimar (Dawn of the Scarlet Sun), etc. I know the setting there better than any others.
What if the players agreed to DM a Not-for-Society-Credit PFS Scenario Before they enter a PC for application here?
They're very short. Lots of feedback and DM-advice for Every Scenario on the Paizo Messageboards. Good practice. Not much commitment. Would there be any interest for other folks to play in a Scenario if it weren't for PFS credit?
.... Meanwhile, in this game, the players (each also DMing a PFS or short module) could discuss DM-craft while playing through what Azure_Zero runs.
DM Azure_Zero could DM a module (or PFS Scenario) here only for the players who are trying their hand at DMing small adventures in their own separate Recruitment Threads.
Or,... if Azure_Zero really just wants to DM CotCT, he decides to only consider applications from players who start a Recruitment Thread and get their own Gameplay up-and-running.
.
for someone gun-shy about starting a PbP open to all the Grognards, Powergamers and Rules-Options-Gurus, if it's helpful, is to have a strict limit at the beginning of Recruitment such as "Core Rulebook and APG ONLY" or something like that. Or even just make a list of the Classes and Races that you're comfortable with and have people choose from that list. Explain why in the Recruitment OP: 'Hey, these are the only four Classes outside of the Core rulebook I know so please just choose a Core Class or one of these four.' Or perhaps, 'I'm going to accept ONE Ftr,Ran,Bbn,OR_Slayer. I'm going to accept ONE Wiz,orSor(sorry I don't know Arcanist). I'm going to accept ONE Rogue. I'm going to accept ONE Cleric-Healer. That's all'
I'm with DM Ray, new GMs should limit the content players have access to.
Core only would be best, or Core with APG with selected content, I'd recommend removing summoner as it is broken.
I've seen the broken bat sh*t crazy OP builds that can be made due to PFS allowing pretty much anything under the sun, and for Paizo not thinking about restrictions for certain ACG classes which allow for broken class combos ....cough Bloodrager Paladins cough
What if the players agreed to DM a Not-for-Society-Credit PFS Scenario Before they enter a PC for application here?
They're very short. Lots of feedback and DM-advice for Every Scenario on the Paizo Messageboards. Good practice. Not much commitment. Would there be any interest for other folks to play in a Scenario if it weren't for PFS credit?
.... Meanwhile, in this game, the players (each also DMing a PFS or short module) could discuss DM-craft while playing through what Azure_Zero runs.DM Azure_Zero could DM a module (or PFS Scenario) here only for the players who are trying their hand at DMing small adventures in their own separate Recruitment Threads.
Or,... if Azure_Zero really just wants to DM CotCT, he decides to only consider applications from players who start a Recruitment Thread and get their own Gameplay up-and-running.
....
I never run or join PFS games, as that is just asking for trouble and denies other creative concepts and ideas.
So all games would be NON-PFS, since PFS requires that you allow all PFS allowed content, which is pretty much everything...and attracts power gamers and other broken bullcrap.
That is one reason I have a bundle of short, WotC 3.5, adventures for the new GMs, it won't mess with PFS credits if they are in PFS.
One idea of have of running Option one and two is close to DM Ray's ideas. It is a bit of a compromise of the pitched options.
Myself and other Forever GMs run CotCT, taking turns.
Each of us also train up a new GM by being a player and assistant to a new GM.
The "new GM training" will have each Forever GM list modules or adventures they will assist with, the New GMs pick the Forever GM and one of the modules that GM listed to run, as it would help if they both know the content, as the GM might be able to give advice better if they know the module very well.
The new GMs will start their recruitment threads with a recruitment template I'll work on, it'll be limiting in options, but ensure enough commonality that if the assistant GM disappears for any reason, that another Forever GM can swap in as a temporary replacement assistant, and not be surprised with something even they might not really know.
I've seen the broken bat sh*t crazy OP builds that can be made due to PFS allowing pretty much anything under the sun.
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I've seen the broken bat sh*t crazy OP builds that can be made due to PFS allowing pretty much anything under the sun..
That is the reason I'll be making the recruitment template for the New GMs to use. To stop any blind agreement to broken sh*t that will wreck the game and their experience in trying to run one.
They only get the change; the adventure, level, wealth, and pretty much nothing else.Furthermore The Assistant GM can Veto any attempts to sneak in Broken and OP sh*t, as the Assistant has the wisdom and experience to spot this crap that new GM can't see yet.
Myself and other Forever GMs run CotCT, taking turns. Each of us also train up a new GM by being a player and assistant to a new GM.
The "new GM training" will have each Forever GM list modules or adventures they will assist with, the New GMs pick the Forever GM and one of the modules that GM listed to run, as it would help if they both know the content, as the GM might be able to give advice better if they know the module very well.
The new GMs will start their recruitment threads with a recruitment template I'll work on, it'll be limiting in options, but...
This sounds almost exactly how to handle coaching of problem solving teams at my plant. A group of employees will form around a problem. An experienced coach will run the team with a co-coach to train. When that project is complete, the co-coach now becomes a coach of their own team and able to help train a co-coach.
I'm so down with this idea of yours @DM Azure Zero.
Let's see how others feel about the idea, mrkrrtft.
Hello - as a newcomer to GMing I defnitely admit that the risk of burnout has kept me away from the APs. the idea of co-running one book each is a really nice one. I'm interested :)
In terms of trying to prevent powergaming, I'm definitly in favour - but for me its more of a you know it when you see it. I tihkn the difficulty in saying 'core rules only' is that I don't even *have* the hardcopy books, I rely on Archives of Nethsys so just from a practical POV I woudn't know what is or isn't core. Also, there are some really nice ideas/concepts/archetyps in other books that I might want to use (I could see myself having a lot of fun with either a Torntured Crusader or Vindictive Bastard paladin in CotCT), so I wouldn't want to stop others from doing the same. Would you really make someone play a non-unchained rogue?
Link to the Old Pathfinder Reference Document (PRD)
where things are organised by Book
Also The Forever GM AP game, is not just Core Rule Book, it'll be special.
I'll say this Character creation will have a twist for CotCT, some additions, but also subtractions.
Now only the new GM games will be Core or Core + limited_APG after I'm done the template and it will include a link to the PRD.
So cheaters have zero excuse for going out of bounds.
Since you are getting 6 DMs, you could have everyone run a book all at once. This might be a little confusing to the story, but you'd get the campaign done in 1/6 of the times. All 6 books starting at the same time.
Since you are getting 6 DMs, you could have everyone run a book all at once. This might be a little confusing to the story, but you'd get the campaign done in 1/6 of the times. All 6 books starting at the same time.
That sounds good in theory, but there are problems;
* one; spoilers from later books* two; continuity, impact in one could effect options / character relationships for a later books.
* three; needing 6 copies of a character and remembering which is which as you play,
this is not just levels, but equipment as well, and how would the game handle sudden increases in wealth?.
* four; too many concurrent games could be a player/GM overload which was aimed at being avoided.
I think the concurrent GM idea would work better for a run of the Falon's Hollow Mini-AP, then CotCT.
Alright, I'll put it to a vote for the Forever GMs
CotCT AP, running sequentially
or
Falcon's Hollow Mini-AP running Concurrent.
Time limit for vote is 24 hours.
Out of the two options, I prefer CotCT AP, running sequentially as long as I only read the 1 book I GM. I'm open to Falcon's Hollow Mini-AP running Concurrent although I'll have to buy the book.
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Out of the two options, I prefer CotCT AP, running sequentially as long as I only read the 1 book I GM. I'm open to Falcon's Hollow Mini-AP running Concurrent although I'll have to buy the book.
The Falcon's Hollow Mini AP is a collection of Modules;
Hollow's Last HopeCrown of the Kobold King
Revenge of the Kobold King
Carnival of Tears
Hungry are the Dead.
So you'd only need to buy a module, since these adventures can be connected or run as a solo adventure.
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I'm fine with CotCC or Falcon's Hollow as a choice, but would rather not do concurrent for either. I'm just to busy to take on multiple new commitments like that.
I don't think a single AP book would be too taxing, I've taken a game about that far before. I think for me burnout is less a factor than needing a good work process in place. Things like how should I be prepping, and how do I compile the stuff I need for running the game in a way that makes it efficient for me, are he kinds of things I need to be better at.
If CotCC is the choice, I'd rather run something like book 3, before levels get to high and combat gets too crazy.
Finally, I'm quite experienced on the player side of things. Aside from occult classes, I know my way around the classes and their archetypes and options. I generally know powergaming when I see it. I'd be comfortable with anything excepting occult and summoners, using core races plus a few I'd allow outside that.
@rdknight
Then you'd likely want to be in the Trainee course
Which helps in learning to GM,
The "new GM training" will have each Forever GM list modules or adventures they will assist with, the New GMs pick the Forever GM and one of the modules that GM listed to run, as it would help if they both know the content, as the GM might be able to give advice better if they know the module very well.
The new GMs will start their recruitment threads with a recruitment template I'll work on, it'll be limiting in options, but ensure enough commonality that if the assistant GM disappears for any reason, that another Forever GM can swap in as a temporary replacement assistant, and not be surprised with something even they might not really know.
I'm not sure whether it's appropriate for me to vote, but if you guys do decide on CotCT, and if you end up needing a DM for vol.2 "Seven Days to the Grave" -- I'll gleefully Lurk the Gameplay and come in when needed. (If that is so, I'll do whatever is also required from DMs regarding answering questions about DMing -- there are no small few modules I know pretty well and can advise upon.)
....Further, waaaay down the line, if we DO make it all the way to vol.5 "Skeletons of Scarwall," I'd Looove to be invited to build a PC and join in all the reindeer games.
As a Forever GM DM Ray, it is fine to vote.
This look nice. I' currently trying to do more or less the same thing with a PFS game I'm going to GM, and it will be my first time GMing a PbP game. I've asked my players as a requirement to run their own game as GMs during or after mine, hopefully all the people who agreed to play at the table have read about that request (I tried to make it quite clear).
If this little project of mine will work I may GM more games here on the boards, but first I need to see how it goes. Otherwise I would happily join your idea, since I'm still looking to play CotCT. I'll see how everything goes, for now.
....
If CotCC is the choice, I'd rather run something like book 3, before levels get to high and combat gets too crazy.
...
I'll be adding a patch to fix the combat slow down that happens at higher levels.....
Though it also does increase lethality some....
Looks like CotCT is the winner, time to start working on preparation.
Also need Forever GMs to sign up for which book they wish to run, but also which book they'd like as a Back up.
Note: This will not be standard character creation rules that some are expecting,
this AP has special potential that very few first edition APs have.
As Such I'm putting in some special character Generation Rules.
For Trainee GMs
I'll make a separate thread for pairing Forever GMs with GM Trainees.
You know what? I want in on this thing. I'm not a veteran GM, but I want to play, both as a PC and as a GM. Can I have a spot at the table?
Also, just to be clear, if I play I have to GM one of the books, right? I can't just GM some other Quest/Scenario/Module?
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Veteran GMs have priority for the CotCT game, as they've proven themselves at GMing and being able to handle running a Book, and they HAVE to run a Book, no substitutes.
Trainee GMs get Modules and Adventures, and an Forever GM as an assistant.
Ok, that's fair. I'm still interested, just tell me what I need to do.
I'm open to running any of the CotCT books.
Do I have this right? At this point there will be one game, and each book will be GM'd by a different player.
Not sure how you're fitting in trainee GMs, but I'm always up for training newbies, whether new players or new GMs.
Actually, I'll probably just open a GM training class if I don't join this game. Doubt I'll get anybody though. I never do.
I've started running a PFS game here on the boards recently, and soon I'm going to start another non-PFS one for a group of friends new to PF and PbP. But I'm still interested in this project.