Skill feat guide

[blammit]

Hello everyone, I'm blammit, the author of Divine Gift: A Guide to the PF2e Oracle. I saw a comment a while back on Zenith's Guide to the Guides about wanting a skill feat guide, so I wrote one up, available here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1P-jXDvoEAraMuy3QIMuFhrTNvq_Vh27UbPwFw5s tZrI/edit?usp=sharing

Looking for feedback on it. If you've got different experiences with various feats, feel like I missed some key value of a feat, or if I just plain old got RAW wrong somewhere, I'd very much appreciate you folks taking a look over it so I can make it as good as it can be. I'm also considering adding a section on archetype skill feats, but I started into it and it felt like it just didn't quite fit with the spirit of the guide. If you think it'd be a valuable addition, please let me know. Thanks for your feedback!

[Cyouni]

Linkified

Powerful Leap: High/Long Jump explicitly include Leap as part of it. That said, in most cases I suspect you're only going to see this used as part of Long Jump to extend by 5 feet.

Cloud Jump: Not sure where the confusion is? It modifies High/Long Jump, which itself modifies Leap.

[Gortle]

Thanks

[blammit]

Cyouni wrote:

Linkified

Powerful Leap: High/Long Jump explicitly include Leap as part of it. That said, in most cases I suspect you're only going to see this used as part of Long Jump to extend by 5 feet.

Cloud Jump: Not sure where the confusion is? It modifies High/Long Jump, which itself modifies Leap.

Thanks for the link! I'm not super well-versed with this forum yet.

As for High Jump and Long Jump, I didn't see anything that would alter the Subordinate Action rules. Powerful Leap explicitly alters the Leap action, but Leap is a subordinate action as part of those feats. Per Subordinate Action rules, "An action might allow you to use a simpler action—usually one of the Basic Actions on page 469—in a different circumstance or with different effects. This subordinate action still has its normal traits and effects, but is modified in any ways listed in the larger action. For example, an activity that tells you to Stride up to half your Speed alters the normal distance you can move in a Stride... Using an activity is not the same as using any of its subordinate actions. For example, the quickened condition you get from the haste spell lets you spend an extra action each turn to Stride or Strike, but you couldn’t use the extra action for an activity that includes a Stride or Strike. As another example, if you used an action that specified, 'If the next action you use is a Strike,' an activity that includes a Strike wouldn’t count, because the next thing you are doing is starting an activity, not using the Strike basic action." I may be reading this wrong, but I see this like any other class feat - Double Slice allows you to make two Strikes, but any other effect that modifies Strikes wouldn't modify Double Slice. I see Powerful Leap vs. High/Long Jump the same way. Leap is a subordinate action, and Powerful Leap only changes Leap, not High/Long Jump.

That rules interaction is also why I wrote Cloud Jump the way I did - it specifies how it interacts with Leap and circumvents the Subordinate Action rules. I couldn't find anything that would prove a different interpretation. I do appreciate you pointing this out though - this was the biggest thing that I felt unsure about as far as rules deliberation.

[HumbleGamer]

Here's a whole thread about cloud jump, quick jump and leap well explained ( in my opinion ), if you wanna take a look at it.

[blammit]

HumbleGamer wrote:

Here's a whole thread about cloud jump, quick jump and leap well explained ( in my opinion ), if you wanna take a look at it.

Rad, thank you. I'll take a look through that and edit as needed.

[Ascalaphus]

I think Powerful Leap is a bit better than you give it credit for. Leap takes only 1 action and doesn't require a check or running start. It can't go quite as far or high as Jump but it'll always work and cheaper.

(That said, I have a monk with all the leaping stuff, and it almost never comes up.)

[blammit]

Ascalaphus wrote:

I think Powerful Leap is a bit better than you give it credit for. Leap takes only 1 action and doesn't require a check or running start. It can't go quite as far or high as Jump but it'll always work and cheaper.

(That said, I have a monk with all the leaping stuff, and it almost never comes up.)

Good point. That's actually what I was trying to convey. I'll edit the language to make it more clear.

[HumbleGamer]

Ascalaphus wrote:

(That said, I have a monk with all the leaping stuff, and it almost never comes up.)

I had the same experience with my Daredevil champion ( staff acrobat + powerful leap), but I liked being able to leap rather than stride.

I found more useful combat climber ( a skill feat a I never considered before actually playing the game years ago).

[Gisher]

Thanks for the guide! That's a lot of work!

[blammit]

blammit wrote:

Cyouni wrote:

Linkified

Powerful Leap: High/Long Jump explicitly include Leap as part of it. That said, in most cases I suspect you're only going to see this used as part of Long Jump to extend by 5 feet.

Cloud Jump: Not sure where the confusion is? It modifies High/Long Jump, which itself modifies Leap.

Thanks for the link! I'm not super well-versed with this forum yet.

As for High Jump and Long Jump, I didn't see anything that would alter the Subordinate Action rules. Powerful Leap explicitly alters the Leap action, but Leap is a subordinate action as part of those feats. Per Subordinate Action rules, "An action might allow you to use a simpler action—usually one of the Basic Actions on page 469—in a different circumstance or with different effects. This subordinate action still has its normal traits and effects, but is modified in any ways listed in the larger action. For example, an activity that tells you to Stride up to half your Speed alters the normal distance you can move in a Stride... Using an activity is not the same as using any of its subordinate actions. For example, the quickened condition you get from the haste spell lets you spend an extra action each turn to Stride or Strike, but you couldn’t use the extra action for an activity that includes a Stride or Strike. As another example, if you used an action that specified, 'If the next action you use is a Strike,' an activity that includes a Strike wouldn’t count, because the next thing you are doing is starting an activity, not using the Strike basic action." I may be reading this wrong, but I see this like any other class feat - Double Slice allows you to make two Strikes, but any other effect that modifies Strikes wouldn't modify Double Slice. I see Powerful Leap vs. High/Long Jump the same way. Leap is a subordinate action, and Powerful Leap only changes Leap, not High/Long Jump.

Since I can't edit this post, putting this up as a retraction - I've seen the light and changed the entries for Powerful Leap and Cloud Jump.

[Mathmuse]

I read through the guide and my party has made some good use of feats marked two-star yellow Situational. That might still leave them situational, but let me provide the details for additional insight to their usefulness.

The PCs in my campaign like to take advantage of terrain. Standing atop at 10-foot-tall rock and throwing a cantrip with range 30 feet is a lot safer than casting the same cantrip on level ground in easy reach of the opponent. Several PCs have invested in class feats and ancestry feats that make them better at climbing, but then they add the skill feat Combat Climber as the icing on the cake because sometimes they attack while climbing rather than after climbing. Furthermore, dropping down is faster than climbing down, and PF2 lacks rules for safely jumping down, so Catfall is the other side of 3-dimensional combat.

Also, during Assault on Longshadow after they defeated an Ironfang army from atop the walls of Longshadow, they used Catfall to jump down off the wall to pursue the fleeing enemy. If they had to lower ropes and climb down or exit via the city gates, then the enemy would have escaped. About half of the seven-member party trained in Acrobatics and learned Catfall, and they don't regret it.

The rogue Sam with high-Charisma scoundrel racket and Sorcerer multiclass archetype maximized the proficiency of his Deception. Thus, even though you said regarding Lie to Me, "(**)(1) Primarily useful for builds with poor perception progression and/or low WIS, allowing you to substitute in your deception DC against those trying to lie to you. Rogues probably don’t need it because of their perception progression, but other high-CHA classes like sorcerer and oracle will appreciate it," this particular rogue has made excellent use of Lie to Me to be a living lie detector. He complements it with the Society skill feat Biographical Eye, rightly labeled three-star green Good, and the Society skill feat Multilingual to be able to talk to a variety of people. He invested in Multilingual twice, but that does not necessarily raise its value above two-star yellow Situational.

The other rogue Binny with high-Dexterity thief racket took the Stealth skill feats Quiet Allies and Swift Sneak. Swift Sneak is rightly labeled four-star blue Great. Quiet Allies has also been useful with Binny as the expert (now master) in Stealth for Follow the Leader, but it helps that everyone in the party has good Dexterity and training in Stealth. Our campaign started in the module Trail of the Hunted with the party protecting refugees hiding in the forest, so the players decided during Session Zero that they would all need Stealth.

The party has used their Stealth to ambush enemies. The ranger Zinfandel's skill feat Snare Crafting and class feat Snare Specialist have come in handy because snares are great for an ambush where they can be set up before the encounter and the party can lure the enemy into the snares. Nevertheless, this is definitely a special situation, so I don't think it raises Snare Crafting about the two-star yellow Situational blammit gave it.

[AlastarOG]

I think there might be some bias overrating on the thievery skill feats.

I've had a lot of players take them, and they've almost never put any to use because there simply wasn't much to take.

Stealing from the NPC's that are helping you is pointless as they're often much lower level. If they aren't, then they have the means of locating their items rather easily and then your entire campaign can get derailed, some players won't risk that, or even feel bad doing that.

Stealing from hostile npc's in combat is kinda pointless, as you're about to murder them for all their loot anyways, might as well use those actions to actively murder them.

Stealing from random passerby's is kind of pointless.

Sure you could break into the one specific shop and steal items, but most GM's will frown on that, and most merchants that sell high level gear also have top tier protection (alarm spells, lock spells, even extradimensional storage). PLanning a heist on one of them becomes its own sidequest that derails the campaign for everyone, something that again a lot of players will not really want to do (And if they do they're probably not the kind of players I'd enjoy playing with?)

So yeah, overall nice guide, but I can't see why the whole thievery tree is so highly rated.

[Mathmuse]

AlastarOG wrote:

I think there might be some bias overrating on the thievery skill feats.

I've had a lot of players take them, and they've almost never put any to use because there simply wasn't much to take. ...

The rogue Binny in my campaign has made use of Pickpocket and Quick Unlock. Unlocking doors in an enemy stronghold is a routine use of the Thievery skill even without any desire to steal.

The pickpocketing was a special case in Trail of the Hunted. The party encountered a traveler who was secretly working for the enemy. The party became suspicious but decided to not start combat. However, Binny picked his pocket and found a wanted poster offering a reward for the party, a significant plot point that the enemy had learned about them. I was so happy that Binny provided that information to the party that I added two scrolls to the poster she stole. Nevertheless, Binny used that feat only once, so it was situational. A rating of two-star yellow Situational might be more appropriate.

AlastarOG wrote:

Planning a heist on one of them becomes its own sidequest that derails the campaign for everyone, something that again a lot of players will not really want to do (And if they do they're probably not the kind of players I'd enjoy playing with?)

My party pulled off a mission between Assault on Longshadow and Siege of Stone that was essentially a heist: they dug a tunnel and helped some slaves escape captivity. They invented this sidequest themselves, but it was closely related to the main quest, because the slaves were the former neighbors of the refugees they protected in Trail of the Hunted. Stealth and Craft skills paid a major part, but Thievery was not used.

[AlastarOG]

Nice anecdotes :-)

For quick unlock though usually you can unlock as an exploration activity, no need to do it in combat.

What I'd love to rate as green or blue is quick disable device ! But alas that does not exist (although I houserule that quick unlock enables quick disable device in my games)

[blammit]

AlastarOG wrote:

I think there might be some bias overrating on the thievery skill feats.

I've had a lot of players take them, and they've almost never put any to use because there simply wasn't much to take.

Strongest argument I've seen to change a rating. I'll re-look at thievery and give it a harder look at what's situational. Most of my interpretation goes off of how common it is for an NPC to have an item that's a key part of its build/strategy or how common it is for a MacGuffin to be a key part of a story arc, but to your point, that's not as often the case as I think I tried to put into the guide.

[blammit]

Mathmuse wrote:

The PCs in my campaign like to take advantage of terrain. Standing atop at 10-foot-tall rock and throwing a cantrip with range 30 feet is a lot safer than casting the same cantrip on level ground in easy reach of the opponent. Several PCs have invested in class feats and ancestry feats that make them better at climbing, but then they add the skill feat Combat Climber as the icing on the cake because sometimes they attack while climbing rather than after climbing. Furthermore, dropping down is faster than climbing down, and PF2 lacks rules for safely jumping down, so Catfall is the other side of 3-dimensional combat.

Also, during Assault on Longshadow after they defeated an Ironfang army from atop the walls of Longshadow, they used Catfall to jump down off the wall to pursue the fleeing enemy. If they had to lower ropes and climb down or exit via the city gates, then the enemy would have escaped. About half of the seven-member party trained in Acrobatics and learned Catfall, and they don't regret it.

Given this context, I think both feats are rated appropriately. Cat Fall isn't so amazing that it should be an auto-pick, but it's definitely a good choice and certainly makes a difference. Combat Climber is good in the right circumstances, namely terrain, but that terrain isn't always (or even necessarily often) going to be available. Great in the right situation, for sure. Its speed also still makes its action economy a tough, but situational and interesting decision. Feat's worth taking, it just seems like it's best to identify its limitations and when it's good.

Mathmuse wrote:

The rogue Sam with high-Charisma scoundrel racket and Sorcerer multiclass archetype maximized the proficiency of his Deception. Thus, even though you said regarding Lie to Me, "(**)(1) Primarily useful for builds with poor perception progression and/or low WIS, allowing you to substitute in your deception DC against those trying to lie to you. Rogues probably don’t need it because of their perception progression, but other high-CHA classes like sorcerer and oracle will appreciate it," this particular rogue has made excellent use of Lie to Me to be a living lie detector.

I may have to edit the language a bit, but it still nearly fits the spirit of what I'm trying to convey with Lie to Me. It's a good replacement if your perception DC is weaker than your deception DC.

Mathmuse wrote:

The other rogue Binny with high-Dexterity thief racket took the Stealth skill feats Quiet Allies and Swift Sneak. Swift Sneak is rightly labeled four-star blue Great. Quiet Allies has also been useful with Binny as the expert (now master) in Stealth for Follow the Leader, but it helps that everyone in the party has good Dexterity and training in Stealth. Our campaign started in the module Trail of the Hunted with the party protecting refugees hiding in the forest, so the players decided during Session Zero that they would all need Stealth.

The party has used their Stealth to ambush enemies. The ranger Zinfandel's skill feat Snare Crafting and class feat Snare Specialist have come in handy because snares are great for an ambush where they can be set up before the encounter and the party can lure the enemy into the snares. Nevertheless, this is definitely a special situation, so I don't think it raises Snare Crafting about the two-star yellow Situational blammit gave it.

These all feel like good examples of the ratings I gave those feats. Quiet Allies is good in the right circumstance - namely, a party all built to have decent DEX and consistent DEX progression. Likewise with the Snare feats - hopefully my line in there that they're great with the right build (mostly ranger) makes appropriate sense.

[AlastarOG]

blammit wrote:

AlastarOG wrote:

I think there might be some bias overrating on the thievery skill feats.

I've had a lot of players take them, and they've almost never put any to use because there simply wasn't much to take.

Strongest argument I've seen to change a rating. I'll re-look at thievery and give it a harder look at what's situational. Most of my interpretation goes off of how common it is for an NPC to have an item that's a key part of its build/strategy or how common it is for a MacGuffin to be a key part of a story arc, but to your point, that's not as often the case as I think I tried to put into the guide.

I agree with you that doohickey or watchamackalit or macguffin posession is a time honored tradition (flawed orb of dragonkind, staff of the maelstrom, just to name a few) and that stealing in those scenarios can be a superb moment, one that players will tell around the campfire for years! And you want that when they pull it off.

But from an overall perspective that's most likely going to be one moment over an entire 1-20 campaign. Maybe 2 if your player is spamming that ''steal'' button like there's no tomorrow (Metaphorically speaking).

Simply because from an adventure design perspective, you can't build your entire AP around the one dude stealing it, so most doodads are often claimed from the cold dead hands of your ennemies. The investigator nabbing it 12 seconds before you would have gotten it anyways doesn't change much, unless its a very strong thingamagig but even then... they often aren't.

Pickpocket was so unused in my age of ashes game that I let it enable the use of thievery as a downtime activity for the player cause he felt a bit down all his thievery skill feats did nothing.

[Captain Morgan]

I'm dotting this for later. Skill feats are something I feel some sort of way about.

[UnArcaneElection]

Definitely want to look at this when I get a chance. Haven't had the chance to learn 2nd Edition very much in this time of pestilence.

[Makarion]

It looks like the guide was deleted, or at least that the link in the original post is no longer valid.

[Dubious Scholar]

On Magical Shorthand:
It allows using Downtime to get spells at lower cost, specifically. It's basically an alternative Earn Income. Also, more importantly, it allows trying again if you fail to learn a spell without waiting for a level up.

[UnArcaneElection]

I still haven't had a chance to read it yet, but I did find it. The problem is that the original post doesn't have it formatted as a link, so the Messageboards put a space in the URL -- if you take that out manually, it works.

See guide here.

[Ravingdork]

Doesn't the recent errata state that you DO need Magical Crafting to transfer runes?

[breithauptclan]

Ravingdork wrote:

Doesn't the recent errata state that you DO need Magical Crafting to transfer runes?

Yes. But considering that this thread was necrobumped from almost a year ago...

[blammit]

Ravingdork wrote:

Doesn't the recent errata state that you DO need Magical Crafting to transfer runes?

Updated. I managed to miss that in the errata.

Dubious Scholar wrote:

On Magical Shorthand:

It allows using Downtime to get spells at lower cost, specifically. It's basically an alternative Earn Income. Also, more importantly, it allows trying again if you fail to learn a spell without waiting for a level up.

Also updated, thank you.

And while we're at it, updated link.

[Red Griffyn]

Observations/Comments:

- Arcobatic Performer is an amazing skill feat. Perform checks rarely specify what type and the only default thing it doesn't support is earn income roles. This is how a CHA tanked character can participate in social skills/challenges. Should be blue IMO (especially for PFS where skill challenges or chase sequences have a variety of mixed skill options). This is about as close to and the only example of X to Y in the system.

- Trick Magic Item should be blue. This is how you get buff wands onto non caster classes. L2 Longstrider is one example, but tons of utility spells like comprehend languages, invisibility, fly, etc.

- Tattoo Artist - I'd include tooth and claw since its L6 and allows you to effectively for 1 action polymorph up an equivalent unarmed strike with a different damage type (like a really weird modular trait for unarmed builds). Really great for monks, or strange switch hitters using kashrishi horns, or STR based 1d8 lizard folks/chompy goblins with only one damage type, etc.

- Bon Mot is an easy blue. It is an amazing set-up for any will save spell or effect like demoralize. I have an illusion/CHA wizard that just keeps reapplying bon mots and demoralizes to keep enemy will saves low so they can't escape his illusory object control spell. Its even better on a real CHA spellcaster that can bon mot then cast a L3 fear. This is one way for martials with will save effects triggering off class DC to fake having caster DC progression. I hear you on the linguistic impact but there are many ways to buy up more languages on items and typically you can downselect the ones that are most likely to come up with help from your GM. Otherwise L3 Comprehend Language can provide an initial patch if you can scout the enemy stronghold filled with "X" orcs/goblins/fae/whatever language talking enemies. Later on Tongues can support the feat at higher levels (L5 gives one hour and L7 gives all day), basically removing the downside of the linguistic trait (so maybe a green to blue?).

- Additional Lore - One thing maybe worth mentioning is that Share Lore is a pretty great utility spell that really synergizes. As a L3 or L5 feat you can basically give out trained progression to all of your party for an hour or whole adventuring day. Where this becomes super useful is for things that require the whole party pitch in (e.g., sailing a boat, or engineering a tower defense mission's defenses, etc.). Like for a low CHA high INT class like a typical wizard where there are almost not 'must have' skill feats I think you could make a pretty hilarious build that only takes additional lore for every skill feat. Then it just becomes a constant game of how can I justify these ~10+ lores for every situation (e.g., legal lore for contracts/faking legal writs, engineering lore as a poor man's crafting feat, underworld lore for faking social situations with criminals, merchantile lore for faking social situations with merchants, scouting lore for a poor mans survival, etc.). Even if you can't convince your GM to be the main roller, you can often convince them to let you 'aid' with your lore skill.

- Great start/work so far. Do you plan on including the skill feats in archetypes? If yes you could probably start with the following list. It isn't exhaustive but these are some of the ones that give a skill proficiency bump from the dedication and include skill feats to help a rogue exit the feat by only spending skill feats:
*Dandy
*Linguist
*Archaeologist
*Acrobat
*Medic
*Herbalist
*Knight Reclaimaint
*Knight Vigilaint
*Lastwall Sentry
*Oozemorph
*Zephyr Guard
*Pathfinder Agent (a ton of skill feats in here)
*Alter Ego

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

Red Griffyn made the comments I wanted to about your skill feat rankings! Thanks, Red, for covering all of that so well.

[Trixleby]

Not going to lie, I've read Cloud Jump several times but I've crit failed my reading comprehension and I have no idea how it works, still.

[blammit]

Red Griffyn wrote:

Arcobatic Performer is an amazing skill feat. Perform checks rarely specify what type and the only default thing it doesn't support is earn income roles. This is how a CHA tanked character can participate in social skills/challenges. Should be blue IMO (especially for PFS where skill challenges or chase sequences have a variety of mixed skill options). This is about as close to and the only example of X to Y in the system.

I don't know that I can agree to this being blue. Its utility in enabling low-CHA builds is potentially very good. The fact that it relies entirely on GM discretion as to how effect Perform will be, though, makes it situational at best. If I can't rely on my GM to enable the action, it's utterly worthless. I've updated it to a situational rating, though.

Red Griffyn wrote:

Trick Magic Item should be blue. This is how you get buff wands onto non caster classes. L2 Longstrider is one example, but tons of utility spells like comprehend languages, invisibility, fly, etc.

Great points. Updated to blue.

Red Griffyn wrote:

Tattoo Artist - I'd include tooth and claw since its L6 and allows you to effectively for 1 action polymorph up an equivalent unarmed strike with a different damage type (like a really weird modular trait for unarmed builds). Really great for monks, or strange switch hitters using kashrishi horns, or STR based 1d8 lizard folks/chompy goblins with only one damage type, etc.

Added.

Red Griffyn wrote:

Bon Mot is an easy blue.

I don't know why I didn't make it blue before. Fixed.

Red Griffyn wrote:

Additional Lore - One thing maybe worth mentioning is that Share Lore is a pretty great utility spell that really synergizes.

I've added a note on the matter.

Red Griffyn wrote:

Do you plan on including the skill feats in archetypes?

Yeah, I probably should, although I'll likely stick to common archetypes since that's been the case with the rest of the guide. Thanks for pointing some of them out!

[The Raven Black]

Note on Assurance : worth mentioning that it works absolutely great for tasks with set DCs, such as Trick Magic Item, Treat Wounds and Battle Medicine.

[YuriP]

Note on Kip Up: It's insanely good. As GM and like to "debuff" my players with skill action like Trip, Grab and Demoralize whatever the opponent don't have a better built-in action to use and Trip is one of the most actions that I use frequently specially when the opponent has some allies or minions.
To counter this one of my players took Kip Up and this made his life way better in this situations. Even being prone by opponents avoid AoO and free-action stand up help it's action economy a lot.

OK it isn't all GMs that uses such moves in the same frequency that I use (I always thing what can I do with a monster 3rd action so my players made a joke every time I open the NPC/Monster sheet and say "well let me see what we got here" kkk) but if you GM use and abuse from prone condition this skill feat is fantastic.

[Logosworks]

Anyone have an updated link?