Here is my attempts at putting some Oracle builds together. I really couldn't get anything I liked for Ancestor or Lore. I've had a go, but I think if I was actally forced to play those subclasses I would bascially multiclass out and never trigger the curse. Does anyone have any idea how they are supposed to work?
Oracle
The Oracle is a spontaneous Divine Caster but each of its Mysteries has different advantages and benefits and thus each plays very differently. The Mysteries have benefits but also problems as your Curse progresses when you cast Revelation spells. There are limits on your Curse and you can lower the level to minor with a ten minute refocus, but you only remove it with a long rest. The result is you need to think carefully about your Revelation spells as you can’t always use them, so getting too many is a mistake. You will have an optimal level of Curse where your character functions well. Be that; no curse - so never using Revelation spells till you need to long rest, minor curse - using your revelation spells out of combat and refocusing back to minor, moderate curse - using your revelation spell once each combat, extreme curse is only possible from level 11 but it stops you from using other revelation spells till level 17. Note that unlike other classes your refocus ability automatically improves at level 11 - you don’t have to pay a feat for it.
Choose your deity and their alignment carefully as it impacts on your spell effects, typically LG is best. Your alignment can be different.
Ancestors
The Ancestor Mystery is one of the worst. You do get a couple of free ancestry feats which is nice, but having a failure chance for the main thing that your character does of 20% and higher is intolerable. The benefits are not worth the cost. The best way to play this mystery is to never ever advance your curse. Which of course means this seems like a design failure. To make it work you would need more control over your ancestral influence or much greater benefits. You need options for each ascendant ancestor so magic (already a full caster), strikes, skills. Options which you can always do would be: move, sustain a spell, command an animal companion or familiar, raise a shield, or give your action away as a Marshal.
I’m going to suggest a specific ancestry because this kind of demands it. So here is a Catfolk build. There is so little in Oracle Feats that I like there is plenty of space to take a better revelation spell. Vision of Weakness is actually seriously great but I don’t want to be tempted to screw over my character by using it.
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 18
Basic equipment: Studded Leather, 1d6 Agile, Finesse Claws, Handwraps of Mighty Blows, with options for Composite ShortBow, Whip Claw, and maybe Sturdy Shield
Ancestry: Catfolk, Clawed Catfolk 1st: Cat’s Luck, Catfolk Weapon Familiarity 5th: Expanded Luck, 9th:Wary Skulker, 11th:Silent Step 13th: Catfolk Weapon Expertise and Black Cat Curse, 17th:Reliable Luck
Deity: Chohar (The Golden Lion) [LG]
General Feats: Weapon Proficiency, Toughness, retrain something into Ancestral Paragon at level 13
Class Feats: Level 2: Cantrip Expansion, Level 4: Divine Access for Burning hands, Fireball, Fire Shield, Level 6: Marshal Dedication, Level 8: To Battle, Level 10: Quickened Casting, Level 12:, Level 14: Target of Opportunity, Level 16:, Level 18: Divine Effusion, Level 20: Oracular Providence
Focus Spell: Ancestral Touch seems quite reasonable until you realise you have lost control of your character for the rest of the day.
Skills: Intimidation, Stealth, Diplomacy, Acrobatics, Society
Battle Melee
The battle mystery is not great because it tries to force you into combat even though you are primarily a caster. Your Minor curse is something you can mitigate and cope with, the Moderate curse has pluses and minuses, and the Major curse is a bonus as long as you aren’t casting offensive spells. At least you get the armour proficiency to help. So as long as you adjust your tactics to go with the flow it’s mostly workable and reasonably effective. You can lean into your curse and embrace it fairly well. This particular build really needs Spiritual Weapon to be able to deal with the curse if your enemy is at range.
Str 16 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 8 Wis 14 Cha 18
Basic equipment: Full Plate, Guisarme
Ancestry:Lizardfolk, Frilled Lizardfolk, 1st: Bone Magic 5th: Guided by the Stars, 9th:Terrain Advantage, 13th:Primal Rampage, 17th:Scion Transformation
Deity: Falayna [LG].
Class Feats: Level 2: Glean Lore, Level 4: Divine Access for True Strike, Ghostly Weapon, Cloak of Colors, Level 6: Vision of Weakness, Level 8:, Level 10: Quickened Casting, Level 12:, Level 14: Target of Opportunity, Level 16:, Level 18: Divine Effusion, Level 20: Oracular Providence
Focus Spell: Call to Arms an initiative bonus you can use every combat. It's a major boost to your party.
Skills: Athletics, Intimidation, Deception
Battle Archer
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 10 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 18
Basic equipment: Studded Leather, LongBow
Ancestry:Elf, Cavern Elf, 1st: Otherworldly Magic maybe Electric Arc 5th: Ageless Patience, 9th:Otherworldly Acumen for Illusory Creature or Mirror Image, 13th:Wandering Heart, 17th:Elf Step
Deity: Ragathiel [LG],
Class Feats: Level 2: Domain Acumen for Zeal Domain and Weapon Surge, Level 4: Divine Access for True Strike, Haste, Fire Shield, Level 6: Archer Dedication, Level 8: Point-Blank Shot, Level 10: Quickened Casting, Level 12:, Level 14: Mysterious Repertoire, Level 16:, Level 18: Divine Effusion, Level 20: Oracular Providence
Focus Spell: Call to Arms
Skills: Stealth, Intimidation, Deception
Bones
The Bones Curse is largely reduced hitpoints and healing with some good bonuses against poison, disease and death. It's not great but it is workable. There is no pressing need to advance the curse as it is quite bad. This Oracle must stay out of melee range as they are vulnerable. So I have built this one as a full caster. It should be specialising in the necromantic side of the divine tradition.
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 18
Basic equipment: Studded Leather, Sling
Ancestry: Gnome, Fey Touched Gnome for Electric Arc, 1st: Animal Accomplice 5th: Empathic Plea, 9th:First World Adept, 13th:Instinctive Obfuscation, 17th:Homeward Bound
Deity: Dammerich [LG], the only good god of this mystery.
Class Feats: Level 2:Sorcerer Dedication for an arcane bloodline, Level 4:Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting, Level 6:Basic Blood Potency for Dangerous Sorcery, Level 8: Enhanced Familiar, Level 10: Advanced Blood Potency for Arcane Evolution, Level 12:Expert Sorcerer Spellcasting, Level 14: Mysterious Repertoire, Level 16:, Level 18: Master Sorcerer Spellcasting, Level 20: Divine Effusion
Focus Spell: Soul Siphon, a great single action spell, use it often or hardly ever and don’t bother to get another. Advanced Revelation for Armor of Bones is Ok if you must.
Skills: Stealth, Intimidation, Deception
Cosmos
Finally an Oracle that can fully embrace their curse. You can build the Cosmos Oracle as a ranged caster and be quite happy with it’s limitations.
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 18
Basic equipment: Studded Leather, Composite Short Bow
Ancestry: Tengu, Skyborn Tengu, 1st: Storm's Lash for Electric Arc 5th: Tengu Feather Fan, 9th:Wind Gods Fan, 13th:Thunder God's Fan, 17th:Favor of Heaven
Deity: The Prismatic Ray [NG] the only good god of this mystery that has a spell worth taking.
Class Feats: Level 2:Archer Dedication, Level 4:Divine Access for Sleep, Fireball, Creation, Level 6: Advanced Revelation for Interstellar Void, Level 8: Vision of Weakness, Level 10: Quickened Casting, Level 12:Enhanced Familiar, Level 14: Mysterious Repertoire, Level 16:, Level 18: Divine Effusion, Level 20: Oracular Providence
Focus Spell: Spray of Stars is ordinary. Take some better ones Vision of Weakness and Advanced Revelation for Interstellar Void - note that fatigued is a penalty to AC and saves and they have to critically save to avoid it.
Skills: Stealth, Intimidation, Deception
Flames
Another Oracle that can fully embrace their curse. Things being concealed from you more than 30ft away is not a major problem as Fireball doesn’t care about concealment.You get Produce Flame from your Mystery. The main thing is to get Burn it even from Adopted Ancestry if you have to. If you run up against things that are immune to fire, then you need to look toward other magic, of which the Divine list has plenty. Goblin Scuttle and an independent familiar who can trigger it for you every round is a lot of mobility.
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 18
Basic equipment: Studded Leather, Alchemist's Fire, Staff
Ancestry: Gnome, Charhide Goblin it doesn’t help you versus your curse but take it anyway, 1st: Burn It 5th: Goblin Scuttle , 9th: Skittering Scuttle, 13th:Very Sneaky, 17th:Very Very Sneaky
Deity: Sarenrae [NG] because Fireball is too hard to go past.
Class Feats: Level 2: Domain Acumen for Dazzling Flash or Fire Ray your choice, Level 4:Divine Access for Burning Hands, Fireball, Wall of Fire, Level 6: Familiar Master Dedication an independent flying raven seems good, Level 8:Enhanced Familiar, Level 10: Quickened Casting, Level 12:, Level 14: Mysterious Repertoire, Level 16:, Level 18: Divine Effusion, Level 20: Oracular Providence
Focus Spell: Incendiary Aura is very nice when you can add to it with Burn It, Fire Ray is just nice damage every encounter.
Skills: Stealth, Intimidation, Deception
Life
A Life Oracle is a great healer with extra hitpoints. Your moderate Curse is a big bonus to Heal, but the Major Curse will kill you.
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 18
Basic equipment: Studded Leather,
Ancestry: Elf, Duskwalker, 1st: Elven Weapon Familiarity, 5th: Ageless Patience, 9th: Otherworldly Acumen, 13th:Calaca's Showstopper, 17th:Yamaraj's Grandeur
Deity: Uvuko [CG], .
General Feats: Ancestral Paragon for Otherworldly Magic for Electric Arc
Class Feats: Level 2: Domain Acumen for Healer's Blessing for even more ridiculous healing, Level 4: Divine Access for Fleet Step, Haste, Dragon form, Level 6: Vision of Weakness, Level 8:, Level 10: Quickened Casting, Level 12:, Level 14: Mysterious Repertoire, Level 16:, Level 18: Divine Effusion, Level 20: Oracular Providence
Focus Spell: Life Link is terrible. Yes you have the hitpoints to do it but you are harder to heal than anyone else. Doubling down on healing with Healer's Blessing is nice, is that enough to make LifeLink worth it? I doubt it. Anyway, Vision of Weakness is solid. Alternative: Dammerich [LG] for Death's Call and True Strike, Paralyze, Stoneskin,
Skills: Stealth, Intimidation, Deception
Lore
The Lore Mystery is very bad. You do get an extra spell of each level (bringing you up to where a Divine Sorcerer would be) which is very strong, but losing initiative is a huge penalty. Maybe you could take Oracular Warning and get some value out of it. Then it advances to permanent flatfooted which basically means you suffer +30% damage. The major curse is actually useful for out of combat investigation, The best way to play this mystery is to never ever advance your curse. Which of course means this seems like another design failure.
Then there is the problem that Vision of Weakness is actually seriously great so you don’t actually need or want to waste so much time on Recall Knowledge. Here it is. Please don’t play this. It plans on spending most of its turns buffing and healing and hiding under sanctuary.
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 18
Basic equipment: Studded Leather,
Ancestry: Kitsune, Empty Sky Kitsune 1st: Star Orb 5th: Kitsune Spell Mysteries for Sanctuary once per day, 9th:Fox Trick, 13th: Killing Stone 17th:Kitsune Spell Expertise
Deity: Kurgess[NG]
General Feats:
Class Feats: Level 2: Loremaster, Level 4: Divine Access for Ant Haul, Enlarge, Haste, Level 6: Loremaster's Etude, Level 8: Vision of Weakness, Level 10: Oracular Warning, Level 12: Quickened Casting, Level 14:, Level 16:, Level 18: Divine Effusion, Level 20: Oracular Providence
Focus Spell: Brain Drain is OK if you can pick up a useful clue..
Skills: Stealth, Diplomacy, Deception
Tempest
The tempest Oracle also lends itself to being a full caster. It starts with Electric Arc and its curse is a reasonable set of ranged defences providing your enemy doesn’t have lightning bolt.
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 18
Basic equipment: Studded Leather,
Ancestry: Sprite, Luminous Sprite 1st: Corgi Mount 5th: Evanescent Wings, 9th: Energize Wings, 13th: Invisible Trickster 17th:Hero's Wings
Deity: Ranginori [NG]
Class Feats: Level 2: Domain Acumen for Tidal Surge is a nice single action push spell, Level 4: Divine Access for Liberating command, Fly, Chain Lightning, Level 6: Advanced Revelation for Thunderburst, Level 8: Familiar Master Dedication, Level 10: Oracular Warning, Level 12: Quickened Casting, Level 14: Mysterious Repertoire, Level 16:, Level 18: Divine Effusion, Level 20: Oracular Providence
Focus Spell: Tempest touch is fair for a single action spell but its range touch. Thunderburst is an area of effect damage which is not great but given that it is a focus spell and heightens for free it's not too bad.
Skills: Stealth, Intimidation
I'm playing an ancestors oracle that uses the curse in combat.
When it's skillful I use Bon Mot and Demoralize, when it is martial I use an air repeater (lets me use the other hand for a staff or similar) but you could also go into Archer or Drow Shootist for either a bow or a repeating hand crossbow.
The +1 to hit and +2 damage makes you quite competent at ranged attacks, you have a 50% chance each day of having a permanent +1 to skills outside of combat which is also nice and makes you good at using face skills.
Divine did get a lot more damage spells in SoM which makes the dangerous sorcery effect a bit better but the bonus to healing is pretty nice as well. If you have a staff of healing and casting a 4th level heal you get a +6 bonus to the heal spell which is a decent sum for sure.
A versatile heritage helps you get more milage out of extra ancestry feats.
You only have a 12.5% chance of being disrupted from doing something important each turn (50% chance to get your ancestor and then a 25% chance of failing the flat check).
You can also make a melee version of this build with the advantage of having Athletics available as skillful. In that case I would multiclass champion for heavy armor.
Not a 100% sure you accurately represent divine access :
Your ability to tap into divine magic surpasses the spells traditionally available to you (the divine spell list). Choose one deity who grants one of your mystery's granted domains. Add up to three cleric spells of your choice granted by that deity to your spell list. You can select from these spells when you add or swap spells in your spell repertoire.
Special You can select this feat more than once. You can't choose the same spells more than once, but you can choose a different domain or a different deity with the same domain you've previously selected with this feat.
It does not have to be linked to your deity, it can be linked to any deity that has one of your two domains.
This makes lore actually low-key better since it allows them to snipe some of the excellent Nethys spells like magic missile wall of force and maze.
Also as pointed out above lore Oracle is repertoire only, but it means their repertoire is better than a divine sorcerer since a divine sorcerer only chooses 3 spells out of 4 in their repertoire, the other one being an automatically assigned spell.
Ancestors
The Ancestor Mystery is one of the worst. You do get a couple of free ancestry feats which is nice, but having a failure chance for the main thing that your character does of 20% and higher is intolerable. The benefits are not worth the cost. The best way to play this mystery is to never ever advance your curse.Battle Melee
The battle mystery is not great because it tries to force you into combat even though you are primarily a caster.Bones
The Bones Curse is largely reduced hitpoints and healing with some good bonuses against poison, disease and death. It's not great but it is workable.Lore
The Lore Mystery is very bad.
Wat
Yep put it another way. I'm not really a fan of Bones or Ancestry but they do sort of work.
I don't think that Lore or Ancestors work at all.
This is a bit of a cry for help - please prove me wrong.
Anyway, about the lore mistery
You do get an extra spell of each level (bringing you up to where a Divine Sorcerer would be) which is very strong
I think you read it wrong:
Mystery Benefit You hold more mystical knowledge within you than most. You have one additional spell in your repertoire of each level you can cast.So, you still cast 3 spells per day, but you have a wider choice of spells. Which is great too.
I find Divine a perfectly good list all by itself. Extra spells known is nice, as there are clearly a few things you could add like Haste/Fireball/Wall of X. But there are good divine options at those levels. Its a factor, not the major factor, and it has less value after you have had a few.
Not a 100% sure you accurately represent divine access :
** spoiler omitted **
It does not have to be linked to your deity, it can be linked to any deity that has one of your two domains.
This makes lore actually low-key better since it allows them to snipe some of the excellent Nethys spells like magic missile wall of force and maze.
OK Thanks this is a good point. Your choice of Deity is most important for alignment - which is what I did almost exclusively choosing LG deities as for a typical adventurer those are the best alignment effect options to have. Though CG is pretty good too.
But I did miss that you could take multiples and that they didn't actually have to be your deity just an associated domain. I'll go back an add an extra Deity like Nethys to most of these builds.
Also as pointed out above lore Oracle is repertoire only, but it means their repertoire is better than a divine sorcerer since a divine sorcerer only chooses 3 spells out of 4 in their repertoire, the other one being an automatically assigned spell.
Yeah so they get more choice. But note that Divine Sorcerer get Blessed Blood, and Cross Blooded Evolution in addition to what they get for free with their bloodline - so they do have options. More importantly they don't get crippling side effects like go last in a game where combats are often all over by round 3 or 4. Further most of their class feats are actually useful and not a trap.
Agreed on most counts for divine sorcerers.
For divine access: the ONLY Oracle who can get access to Nethys, arguably the best god for divine access with maybe sarenrae.
Fun part is lore Oracle with truth and knowledge is the only Oracle mystery with access to Nethys (correct me if I'm wrong) and ALSO has access to sarenrae through truth, that's on top of having a good repertoire.
So lore Oracle is suuuper subtle in its play but can get some pretty bonkers good spells in their repertoire.
They also have some decent mystery spells, but it's HEAVILY dependent on what information you get on RK checks.
At level 12 the greater mystery spell is pretty g&$&&+n strong, but it depends on what you're facing.
Id say it's one of the most campaign and GM specific mysteries.
Agreed on most counts for divine sorcerers.
For divine access: the ONLY Oracle who can get access to Nethys, arguably the best god for divine access with maybe sarenrae.
Fun part is lore Oracle with truth and knowledge is the only Oracle mystery with access to Nethys (correct me if I'm wrong) and ALSO has access to sarenrae through truth, that's on top of having a good repertoire.
So lore Oracle is suuuper subtle in its play but can get some pretty bonkers good spells in their repertoire.
They also have some decent mystery spells, but it's HEAVILY dependent on what information you get on RK checks.
At level 12 the greater mystery spell is pretty g!&!!*n strong, but it depends on what you're facing.
Id say it's one of the most campaign and GM specific mysteries.
Are you talking about Dread Secret? I'm just not seeing how that is strong?
Are you talking about Dread Secret? I'm just not seeing how that is strong?Agreed on most counts for divine sorcerers.
For divine access: the ONLY Oracle who can get access to Nethys, arguably the best god for divine access with maybe sarenrae.
Fun part is lore Oracle with truth and knowledge is the only Oracle mystery with access to Nethys (correct me if I'm wrong) and ALSO has access to sarenrae through truth, that's on top of having a good repertoire.
So lore Oracle is suuuper subtle in its play but can get some pretty bonkers good spells in their repertoire.
They also have some decent mystery spells, but it's HEAVILY dependent on what information you get on RK checks.
At level 12 the greater mystery spell is pretty g!&!!*n strong, but it depends on what you're facing.
Id say it's one of the most campaign and GM specific mysteries.
Removing resistance from all ennemies, depending on the campaign, can be a huge damage bonus to your time as high resistance ennemies often have lower HP to balance.
So if you're in a campaign with a lot of golems or robots (AoA or IG), removing resistances for 1 round even on a success from 6 ennemies is a lot of damage increase in those cases. Frightened 1 is gravy on top.
But if it's a campaign with a lot of humanoid ennemies or like oozes, beasts and aberations (which often time don't have resistances or weaknesses) then it's much less important.
I'd call lore Oracle the "meta" Oracle if you will, if you can understand who the "ennemy behind the scenes" is and what they mostly use then you can exploit that with your kit.
Otherwise it sucks.
As an exemple:
In my IG conversion game I have a flurry ranger a swashy and a summoner with a witch and an Oracle.
Dread secret + share boon from the ranger means the swashy and ranger can easily attack 4 times per turn and hit plus an AoO and a riposte (or even more at higher levels) means each of them will effectively gain between 30-50 damage boulnus for 1 rounds if they're fighting robots.
Fixing up Divine Access - which is really important. BTW thanks for Divine Access Guide its missing the latest but it is a huge help to navigating Deities.
Adjusted some commentary which to be more reasonable.
Oracle
The Oracle is a spontaneous Divine Caster but each of its Mysteries has different advantages and benefits and thus each plays very differently. The Mysteries have benefits but also problems as your Curse progresses when you cast Revelation spells. There are limits on your Curse and you can lower the level to minor with a ten minute refocus, but you only remove it with a long rest. The result is you need to think carefully about your Revelation spells as you can’t always use them, so getting too many is a mistake. You will have an optimal level of Curse where your character functions well. Be that; no curse - so never using Revelation spells till you need to long rest, minor curse - using your revelation spells out of combat and refocusing back to minor, moderate curse - using your revelation spell once each combat, extreme curse is only possible from level 11 but it stops you from using other revelation spells till level 17. Note that unlike other classes your refocus ability automatically improves at level 11 - you don’t have to pay a feat for it.
Choose your deity and their alignment carefully as it impacts on your spell effects, typically LG is best. Your alignment can be different.
Ancestors
The Ancestor Mystery is one of the worst. You do get a couple of free ancestry feats which is nice, but having a failure chance for the main thing that your character does of 20% and higher is intolerable. The benefits are not worth the cost. The best way to play this mystery is to never ever advance your curse. Which of course means this seems like a design failure. To make it work you would need more control over your ancestral influence or much greater benefits. You need options for each ascendant ancestor so magic (already a full caster), strikes, skills. Options which you can always do would be: move, sustain a spell, command an animal companion or familiar, raise a shield, or give your action away as a Marshal.
I’m going to suggest a specific ancestry because this kind of demands it. So here is a Catfolk build. There is so little in Oracle Feats that I like there is plenty of space to take a better revelation spell. Vision of Weakness is actually seriously great but I don’t want to be tempted to screw over my character by using it.
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 18
Basic equipment: Studded Leather, 1d6 Agile, Finesse Claws, Handwraps of Mighty Blows, with options for Composite ShortBow, Whip Claw, and maybe Sturdy Shield
Ancestry: Catfolk, Clawed Catfolk 1st: Cat’s Luck, Catfolk Weapon Familiarity 5th: Expanded Luck, 9th:Wary Skulker, 11th:Silent Step 13th: Catfolk Weapon Expertise and Black Cat Curse, 17th:Reliable Luck
Deity: Chohar (The Golden Lion) [LG]
General Feats: Weapon Proficiency, Toughness, retrain something into Ancestral Paragon at level 13
Class Feats: Level 2: Cantrip Expansion, Level 4: Divine Access - Chohar for Burning Hands, Fireball, Fire Shield, Level 6: Marshal Dedication, Level 8: To Battle, Level 10: Quickened Casting, Level 12: Divine Access - Grundinnar for Anticipate Peril, Resilient Sphere, Wall of Force, Level 14: Target of Opportunity, Level 16:, Level 18: Divine Effusion, Level 20: Oracular Providence
Focus Spell: Ancestral Touch seems quite reasonable until you realise you have lost control of your character for the rest of the day.
Skills: Intimidation, Stealth, Diplomacy, Acrobatics, Society
Battle Melee
The battle mystery forces you into combat even though you are primarily a caster. You need to be in position to make some sort of attack each turn. It is a reasonable way to approach the Multiple Attack Penalty problem. Your Minor curse is something you can mitigate and cope with, the Moderate curse has pluses and minuses, and the Major curse is a bonus as long as you aren’t casting offensive spells. At least you get the armour proficiency to help. So as long as you adjust your tactics to go with the flow it’s mostly workable and reasonably effective. You can lean into your curse and embrace it fairly well. This particular build really needs Spiritual Weapon to be able to deal with the curse if your enemy is at range.
Str 16 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 8 Wis 14 Cha 18
Basic equipment: Full Plate, Guisarme
Ancestry:Lizardfolk, Frilled Lizardfolk, 1st: Bone Magic 5th: Guided by the Stars, 9th:Terrain Advantage, 13th:Primal Rampage, 17th:Scion Transformation
Deity: Falayna [LG].
Class Feats: Level 2: Glean Lore, Level 4: Divine Access - Gorum for True Strike, Enlarge, Weapon Storm, Level 6: Vision of Weakness, Level 8: Divine Access - Dagon for Hydraulic Push, Feet to Fins, Chain Lightning, Level 10: Quickened Casting, Level 12:, Level 14: Target of Opportunity, Level 16:, Level 18: Divine Effusion, Level 20: Oracular Providence
Focus Spell: Call to Arms an initiative bonus you can use every combat. It's a major boost to your party.
Skills: Athletics, Intimidation, Deception
Battle Archer
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 10 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 18
Basic equipment: Studded Leather, LongBow
Ancestry:Elf, Cavern Elf, 1st: Otherworldly Magic maybe Electric Arc 5th: Ageless Patience, 9th:Otherworldly Acumen for Illusory Creature or Mirror Image, 13th:Wandering Heart, 17th:Elf Step
Deity: Ragathiel [LG],
Class Feats: Level 2: Domain Acumen for Zeal Domain and Weapon Surge, Level 4: Divine Access - Ragathiel for True Strike, Haste, Fire Shield, Level 6: Archer Dedication, Level 8: Point-Blank Shot, Level 10: Quickened Casting, Level 12: Divine Access - Moloch for Burning Hands, Acid Storm, Fiery Body, Level 14: Mysterious Repertoire, Level 16:, Level 18: Divine Effusion, Level 20: Oracular Providence
Focus Spell: Call to Arms
Skills: Stealth, Intimidation, Deception
Bones
The Bones Curse is largely reduced hitpoints and healing with some good bonuses against poison, disease and death. It's not great but it is workable. There is no pressing need to advance the curse as it is quite bad. This Oracle must stay out of melee range as they are vulnerable. So I have built this one as a full caster. It should be specialising in the necromantic side of the divine tradition. I didn’t really feel the need for Divine Access because of the arcane spell in this build, but Shax for Phantom Pain, Invisibility, Haste is effective.
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 18
Basic equipment: Studded Leather, Sling
Ancestry: Gnome, Fey Touched Gnome for Electric Arc, 1st: Animal Accomplice 5th: Empathic Plea, 9th:First World Adept, 13th:Instinctive Obfuscation, 17th:Homeward Bound
Deity: Dammerich [LG], the only good god of this mystery.
Class Feats: Level 2:Sorcerer Dedication for an arcane bloodline, Level 4:Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting, Level 6:Basic Blood Potency for Dangerous Sorcery, Level 8: Enhanced Familiar, Level 10: Advanced Blood Potency for Arcane Evolution, Level 12:Expert Sorcerer Spellcasting, Level 14: Bloodline Breadth, Level 16:, Level 18: Master Sorcerer Spellcasting, Level 20: Divine Effusion
Focus Spell: Soul Siphon, a great single action spell, use it often or hardly ever and don’t bother to get another. Advanced Revelation for Armor of Bones is Ok if you must.
Skills: Stealth, Intimidation, Deception
Cosmos
Finally an Oracle that can fully embrace their curse. You can build the Cosmos Oracle as a ranged caster and be quite happy with it’s limitations.
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 18
Basic equipment: Studded Leather, Composite Short Bow
Ancestry: Tengu, Skyborn Tengu, 1st: Storm's Lash for Electric Arc 5th: Tengu Feather Fan, 9th:Wind Gods Fan, 13th:Thunder God's Fan, 17th:Favor of Heaven
Deity: The Prismatic Ray [NG]
Class Feats: Level 2:Archer Dedication, Level 4:Divine Access - The Prismatic Ray for Sleep, Fireball, Creation, Level 6: Advanced Revelation for Interstellar Void, Level 8: Vision of Weakness, Level 10: Quickened Casting, Level 12:Enhanced Familiar, Level 14: Mysterious Repertoire, Level 16:, Level 18: Divine Effusion, Level 20: Oracular Providence
Focus Spell: Spray of Stars is ordinary. Take some better ones Vision of Weakness and Advanced Revelation for Interstellar Void - note that fatigued is a penalty to AC and saves and they have to critically save to avoid it.
Skills: Stealth, Intimidation, Deception
Flames
Another Oracle that can fully embrace their curse. Things being concealed from you more than 30ft away is not a major problem as Fireball doesn’t care about concealment.You get Produce Flame from your Mystery. The main thing is to get Burn it even from Adopted Ancestry if you have to. If you run up against things that are immune to fire, then you need to look toward other magic, of which the Divine list has plenty. Goblin Scuttle and an independent familiar who can trigger it for you every round is a lot of mobility.
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 18
Basic equipment: Studded Leather, Alchemist's Fire, Staff
Ancestry: Gnome, Charhide Goblin it doesn’t help you versus your curse but take it anyway, 1st: Burn It 5th: Goblin Scuttle , 9th: Skittering Scuttle, 13th:Very Sneaky, 17th:Very Very Sneaky
Deity: Sarenrae [NG].
Class Feats: Level 2: Domain Acumen for Dazzling Flash or Fire Ray your choice, Level 4: Divine Access - Sarenrae for Burning Hands, Fireball, Wall of Fire, Level 6: Familiar Master Dedication an independent flying raven seems good, Level 8:Enhanced Familiar, Level 10: Quickened Casting, Level 12: Divine Access - Szuriel for Burning hands, Haste, Weapon Storm, Level 14: Mysterious Repertoire, Level 16:, Level 18: Divine Effusion, Level 20: Oracular Providence
Focus Spell: Incendiary Aura is very nice when you can add to it with Burn It, Fire Ray is just nice damage every encounter.
Skills: Stealth, Intimidation, Deception
Life
A Life Oracle is a great healer with extra hitpoints. Your moderate Curse is a big bonus to Heal, but the Major Curse will kill you.
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 18
Basic equipment: Studded Leather,
Ancestry: Elf, Duskwalker, 1st: Elven Weapon Familiarity, 5th: Ageless Patience, 9th: Otherworldly Acumen, 13th:Calaca's Showstopper, 17th:Yamaraj's Grandeur
Deity: Uvuko [CG],
General Feats: Ancestral Paragon for Otherworldly Magic for Electric Arc
Class Feats: Level 2: Domain Acumen for Healer's Blessing for even more ridiculous healing, Level 4: Divine Access - Uvuko for Fleet Step, Haste, Dragon form, Level 6: Vision of Weakness, Level 8: Divine Access - Norgorber for Illusory Disguise, Invisibility, Phantasmal Killer, Level 10: Quickened Casting, Level 12:, Level 14: Mysterious Repertoire, Level 16:, Level 18: Divine Effusion, Level 20: Oracular Providence
Focus Spell: Life Link is terrible. Yes you have the hitpoints to do it but you are harder to heal than anyone else. Doubling down on healing with Healer's Blessing is nice, is that enough to make LifeLink worth it? I doubt it. Anyway, Vision of Weakness is solid.
Skills: Stealth, Intimidation, Deception
Lore
The Lore Mystery is weird. You do get an extra spell of each level (bringing you up to where a Divine Sorcerer would be) which is very strong, but losing initiative is a huge penalty. Maybe you could take Oracular Warning and get some value out of it. Then it advances to permanent flatfooted which basically means you suffer +30% damage. The major curse is actually useful for out of combat investigation. The best way to play this mystery is to almost never advance your curse. Perhaps only doing so when you think you are missing an important clue.
Then there is the problem that Vision of Weakness is actually seriously great so you don’t actually need or want to waste so much time on Recall Knowledge. Here it is. Please play it like a caster and don’t embrace your curse.
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 18
Basic equipment: Studded Leather,
Ancestry: Kitsune, Empty Sky Kitsune 1st: Star Orb 5th: Kitsune Spell Mysteries for Bane, Illusory Object, or Sanctuary once per day, 9th:Fox Trick, 13th: Killing Stone 17th:Kitsune Spell Expertise
Deity: Kurgess[NG]
General Feats:
Class Feats: Level 2: Loremaster, Level 4: Divine Access - Nethys for
for Magic Missile, Blink, Wall of Force, Level 6: Loremaster's Etude Level 8: Divine Access - Abraxas for Black Tentacles, Feeblemind, Spell Turning,, Level 10: Vision of Weakness, Level 12: Oracular Warning, Level 14: Forestall Curse, Level 16: Familiar Master Dedication, Level 18: Divine Effusion, Level 20: Oracular Providence
Focus Spell: Brain Drain is OK if you can pick up a useful clue. I just don’t recommend you use it
Skills: Stealth, Diplomacy, Deception
Tempest
The tempest Oracle also lends itself to being a full caster. It starts with Electric Arc and its curse is a reasonable set of ranged defences providing your enemy doesn’t have lightning bolt.
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 18
Basic equipment: Studded Leather,
Ancestry: Sprite, Luminous Sprite 1st: Corgi Mount 5th: Evanescent Wings, 9th: Energize Wings, 13th: Invisible Trickster 17th:Hero's Wings
Deity: Ranginori [NG]
Class Feats: Level 2: Domain Acumen for Tidal Surge is a nice single action push spell, Level 4: Divine Access - Gozreh for Gust of Wind, Lightning Bolt, Control Water, Level 6: Advanced Revelation for Thunderburst, Level 8: Familiar Master Dedication, Level 10: Divine Access - Ranginori for Liberating Command, Fly, Chain Lightning, Level 12: Quickened Casting, Level 14: Mysterious Repertoire, Level 16:, Level 18: Divine Effusion, Level 20: Oracular Providence
Focus Spell: Tempest touch is fair for a single action spell but its range touch. Thunderburst is an area of effect damage which is not great but given that it is a focus spell and heightens for free it's not too bad.
Skills: Stealth, Intimidation
You made a mistake about the Tempest Oracle: You don't need Domain Acumen to get Tidal Surge, you can start with it at level 1 (unless you want both Tidal Surge and Pushing Gust but I think there's not much point in that).
Also, I don't see a single Debilitating Dichotomy in all your builds. Considering it's the highest single target damage spell in the game, I really think you missed something there. It's a staple, at Basic Lesson level.
Debilitating Dichotomy is simply wonderful.
Probably my favorite focus spell from the oracle class.
It's the best Oracle Focus Spell by a distance. Extremely strong, easy to use and supported mechanically by the class, it's clearly a massive asset (I don't think you can make any competitive Oracle build without it).
You made a mistake about the Tempest Oracle: You don't need Domain Acumen to get Tidal Surge, you can start with it at level 1 (unless you want both Tidal Surge and Pushing Gust but I think there's not much point in that).
You are right. I'll go back and update that and better reflect that in the text.
Also, I don't see a single Debilitating Dichotomy in all your builds. Considering it's the highest single target damage spell in the game, I really think you missed something there. It's a staple, at Basic Lesson level.
I guess that is because I don't like it. I'd need to be several rounds into the battle to be confident of my Oracle personal security before using it. To me it seems more like a finisher. By which stage I already have my curse where I want it. I think it is reasonable for Cosmos, Flames and Tempest. Perhaps I'm more pessimistic than you. I'll make some notes.
I guess that is because I don't like it. I'd need to be several rounds into the battle to be confident of my Oracle personal security before using it. To me it seems more like a finisher. By which stage I already have my curse where I want it. I think it is reasonable for Cosmos, Flames and Tempest. Perhaps I'm more pessimistic than you. I'll make some notes.
Also, I don't see a single Debilitating Dichotomy in all your builds. Considering it's the highest single target damage spell in the game, I really think you missed something there. It's a staple, at Basic Lesson level.
That's what I was expecting, that's often the first reaction when reading it. Truth is, you will hardly drop because of it, unless you play recklessly.
First, you won't take damage most of the time. With 14 starting Wisdom, you'll have on average 65% chance to critically succeed at the save, 30% chance to succeed and 5% chance to fail. The most common outcome is for you not to take a single point of damage. And even if natural 1s exist, it's quite easy to reroll in this pretty rare case.Also, as a caster, you know when you will take damage and when you won't right at round 1. Most combats are not really unpredictable.
And even if you ever take unexpected damage, Oracle is quite a tough caster. And as said above, with no damage being the most common outcome, it may even not affect you at all.
Over your whole career, you should not drop more than once unless you make mistakes while using it. It's a very strong spell that can be used quite liberally with no real risks.
I'm confused about why you're saying choosing your deity and alignment are important. I think I'm reading the class differently than you.
The only requirement for deity's domain is that the deity in question grants access to one of the domains associated with your mystery. You could be a Chaotic Good Bones Oracle that follows Shoanti Animism who takes Divine Access twice with both Pharasma and Urgathoa.
After all, the Oracle was the divine caster in this game that doesn't care at all about the gods before we had a Divine sorcerer.
I'm confused about why you're saying choosing your deity and alignment are important. I think I'm reading the class differently than you.
The only requirement for deity's domain is that the deity in question grants access to one of the domains associated with your mystery. You could be a Chaotic Good Bones Oracle that follows Shoanti Animism who takes Divine Access twice with both Pharasma and Urgathoa.
After all, the Oracle was the divine caster in this game that doesn't care at all about the gods before we had a Divine sorcerer.
I agree. Accept for your assumption that what I write at the top is still my opinion, after I have gotten feedback. These threads are both advice and a request for advice.
The only thing you really care about mechanically from your Deity for is their alignment because it makes spells like Divine Lance, Anathematic Reprisal and Divine Wrath effective. Most of your enemies will be evil or chaotic. So a Lawful Good Deity is objectively superior in most campaigns. But perhaps your game has a different theme. You don't have to be LG yourself. A true neutral Deity is the pits. You don't even get the normal benefits of neutral. Because its irrelevant for your ability to cast harm or heal, and it does't matter for your own vulnerability for alignment based effects.
Yah alignment damage is a point of contention and the god advice, by Raw, is clutch.
A lot of GM's have their own spin on how to rule it though (maybe it's the original god who cursed you and not your currently worshipped god, maybe it's your own alignment. I have an Oracle of lore in a game who's his own divinity so he uses his own alignment). It's a "ask your GM" thing but Gortle's take fits the default.
I agree and accept that some GM will require you to worship your Deity and equate it with your Mystery. But I don't. To me its implicit in the wall of text that is in the Mystery section of the Oracle class. Its also a good roleplaying hook and an important facet of the class.
I will have to address this somehow in my advice.
I agree and accept that some GM will require you to worship your Deity and equate it with your Mystery. But I don't. To me its implicit in the wall of text that is in the Mystery section of the Oracle class. Its also a good roleplaying hook and an important facet of the class.
I will have to address this somehow in my advice.
Choose your deity and their alignment carefully as it impacts on your spell effects eg for Divine Lance, Anathematic Reprisal and Divine Wrath, typically LG is best. Your alignment can be different. Some GMS will require you to worship your deity as per the standard cleric rules, they do have a clear rules point. I believe the text about Mysteries and the description of the Oracle class gives you the flexibility to set this aside and be of a different alignment including not actually worship this Deity. Plus it can be more fun to roleplay.
Yes I'm recommending a GM could choose to not play a legalistic interpretation of RAW here, because of these flavour statements:
you perceive the common ground across multiple deities or circumvent their power entirely
and
This is the oracle's mystery, a source of divine magic not beholden to any deity
I mean there is a reason you are cursed.
Ok I worked out how to do the Ancestors Oracle. Looking around the forums a few other people have found this too. The mitigation key is Ancestral Defense which gives you a reroll of your curse. Which is not that great because your enemy mostly controls your will save timing, but you can force one usefully with Debilitating Dichotomy. You need two focus points for this so you can only do it if your curse is not active, until you are level 11.
I still don't like it overall but this is clearly how the designers thought it should work. To be fair it is a devastating spell combo. Ancestors is still a harsh curse
Rerolling your ancestor with that combo sounds like a bad plan all around.
First of if you are not the spellcaster you are rolling two flat checks.
Secondly If you spend two actions rerolling your ancestor, what are you doing with your turn even?
Thirdly you just roll it again as soon as your turn ends.
It is good to reroll it outside your turn however if you don't like your current ancestor.
I'm with Onkonk on this. I hardly even see the point. Switching Ancestor for your last action is mostly useless, and rerolling twice a low impact roll is not very strong. On top of that, it costs a Focus Point and increases your Curse, so it's mostly a level 17+ thing.
Yeah, it feels like "you roll on tables and you get what you get and you make it work in play" is a thing that just aesthetically appeals to some players. The Ancestors Oracle is a very mild version of that, but these sorts of things appeal to who they appeal to and basically nobody else.
For the extreme version, look at something like the 13th Age Chaos Mage, where you randomly select whether the spell you can cast this term is offensive, defensive, or a utility spell. For me, this was fun.
I saw a wellspring caster ancestor Oracle build a while ago and it made me giggle.
I love the concept of ancestor but wouldn't play it. I'm restating Cassandalee for my Iron God's conversion game soon so I might get to play around with that !
Ok I concede the point. The timing of it means it isn't useful except maybe for one single action. Its is still a powerful spell combo on its on though.
You really want to play a character in a straight jacket to use this class.
Cosmos Oracle has been fun to play.
I built a kobold dragon disciple flame oracle for a one shot, that could work pretty well I think. Lots of options and when you hit the major curse, become a dragon and burn everything around you by just standing there...
As a side note, I play a Tempest Oracle, currently level 7.
At low level, the combination between Heal and Electric Arc is really efficient for a caster. I had a lot of fun with it.
But when I hit level 5, with Heal becoming less important and Electric Arc becoming ridiculous compared to Fireballs and Lightning Bolts, I really felt the lack of a good Focus Spell. Tempest Touch is super strong when your level starts increasing, but going melee with it makes it dangerous. Thunderburst doesn't do much damage. Also, fights where you can blast with a 20ft. radius spell are rare, so you can't use it that often.
That's why I find Debilitating Dichotomy to be so important. Because it's powerful but mostly because it's really easy to use and fit a lot of different fight configurations. Also, it's a whole game by itself (you don't play an Oracle if you don't like gambling!).
Oracle Rolls a will save aagainst debilitating dichotomy and gets a natural 1 ( normal failure thanks to the spell ) and down he goes...
A critical failure to Debilitating Dichotomy will take away roughly a third of your hit point pool. So, I don't think you can really go down because of it unless you use it in a very dangerous situation and roll high on your damage roll.
So, I prefer to review your example:Oracle Rolls 1d4 for its ancestor... and gets a 3 ( spellcaster )
Martial Ancestor: Smash your sword on him!
Skillful Ancestor: Well, at least before doing so you should definitely demoralize it, or attempt a feint!
Spellcaster: Do not listen to them... Cast debilitating Dichotomy...
Skillful Ancestor: Well, even debilitating Dichotomy would benefit from...
Martial Ancestor: Don't listen to him! Those cursed spells will kill you someday!Enemy Rolls a will save against debilitating dichotomy and gets a natural 1 ( critical failure ) and down he goes...
...
Spellcaster Ancestor: Told ya!
Well, that assuming the oracle was with high const and full hp... plot twist, he wasn't! :d
Not high Con, only 12.
But you're right that high Con is really interesting on an Oracle. For example, I'd prioritize Con over Dex on a Life Oracle. AC is important but if you have high Con you'll be still quite tough. But when you consider how the Life Oracle is hard to heal and how at high level you bleed hps all the time, high Con is really desirable.And High Wis is interesting because of Debilitating Dichotomy. On top of that, Wis is interesting for Religion which is your main skill.
I think you can provide alternate attribute allocation, Gortle. Having maxed AC at level 1 is definitely interesting, but it's not mandatory on a backline character.
ps: why is religion supposed to be my main skill? is it tied to some feat/perk?
You are Trained in Religion at level 1. I know some people don't care of having high Religion on an Oracle or high Arcana on a Wizard, but I personally consider that it's part of the character. Being a divine caster and know just the minimum about Religion is weird to me.
They know they are blessed/cursed with a gift/curse, but this doesn't necessarily mean they have an idea ( or like to know/look after ) where it comes from. It's like being part of an ancestry in a different settlement, not knowing what you really are ( what your liniage is ), and just accept the fact you are that way and you are different.
I agree about Sorcerer, but not about Oracle. I can imagine a Sorcerer with Angelic Blood knowing just the bare minimum about Religion because they don't have to know Religion much to use the power of their blood. But an Oracle without Religion would be weird to me as they really harness the divine powers of the world to fuel their spells.
Off course, I don't say it's impossible, nothing's impossible. But in the Oracle thematic, I expect someone with a deep understanding of Religion. Not necessarily about the gods and their dogmas, but about divine magic and cosmology.I mean, it's not that trained is bad ( the difference between trained and untrained is absurd! ), but I can see that expert may fit as well.
Too bad that hitting expert would result into 1 master skill ( so renouncing to 3x legendary unless getting stuff from alternatives like the ones I mentioned before ).
Most people tend to choose 3 skills to get to Legendary. It's true that it's not necessary, especially for skills you don't use during combat. But it's still strongly encouraged by the game (the fact that there are 16 skills and 4-5 characters with 3 legendary skills per party, the fact that DCs are challenging during all your career, etc...).
But more than that, it's a question of role inside the party and of how to roleplay a character. As an Oracle, you'll be most of the time the only Divine caster in a party. I'd find that weird for Religion to not be your thing... A bit as if you were a fraud.
Well, that assuming the oracle was with high const and full hp... plot twist, he wasn't! :dNot high Con, only 12.
But you're right that high Con is really interesting on an Oracle. For example, I'd prioritize Con over Dex on a Life Oracle. AC is important but if you have high Con you'll be still quite tough. But when you consider how the Life Oracle is hard to heal and how at high level you bleed hps all the time, high Con is really desirable.
And High Wis is interesting because of Debilitating Dichotomy. On top of that, Wis is interesting for Religion which is your main skill.I think you can provide alternate attribute allocation, Gortle. Having maxed AC at level 1 is definitely interesting, but it's not mandatory on a backline character.
Sure. I'm pretty reluctant to have less than the default AC on any character if it can be avoided. There are a few builds I've given where it will take a few levels to get it sorted out. Take the Dex down and the Con up if you want. Its not unreasonable to be a point off for a couple of levels if you have healing resources. It may even be preferable for a Summoner. I think my Life Oracle build was written up as an Elf which was a problem.
Sure. I'm pretty reluctant to have less than the default AC on any character if it can be avoided. There are a few builds I've given where it will take a few levels to get it sorted out. Take the Dex down and the Con up if you want. Its not unreasonable to be a point off for a couple of levels if you have healing resources. It may even be preferable for a Summoner. I think my Life Oracle build was written up as an Elf which was a problem.
AC on casters is vastly overrated.
In my Abomination Vault campaign, I have a player who's moto is: AC is useless on casters (noone agrees with him, though). He played, up to his words, a 10 Dexterity Cleric. Not a 10 starting-Dexterity Cleric, a 10 Dexterity Cleric, even at level 10. He even disregarded Potency Armor Rune, thanks to him we now know that you can put a Resilient Rune without a Potency Rune.
Next to him, the 16 starting-Dexterity Sorcerer had between 3 and 5 more points of AC during the campain.
Who's been the toughest nut to crack? The Cleric, hands down.
Because he started with 16 in Constitution and took Toughness right away. Overall, he got 50% more hps than the Sorcerer (it's true that the 2 extra class hit points helped, too).
Every time the Sorcerer was taking a critical hit or critically failing at a damaging spell, he was going under 50% hps and the party had to heal him urgently.
The Cleric took an obscene amount of critical hits. But he was sucking damage fine. To put him down, I needed to chain critical hits. So, first, you need more luck to chain critical hits than to score a single one. But more importantly, I needed to focus fire on him to just have a chance to put him down. And truth is, when you play a backline character who runs away when an enemy gets into melee range, you rarely take that many attacks in a row.
And this experience validates theorycrafting. Because if you compare a 16 Dex, 12 Con Oracle to a 12 Dex, 16 Con Oracle from level 1 to 4, you realize that:
- Against AC-based attacks, the 16 Dex Oracle is 7% tougher (he takes far less damage but has less hit points).
- Against basic-Reflex-based saves, the 16 Con Oracle is 1% tougher.
- Against basic-Will-based saves and unavoidable attacks, the 16 Con Oracle is 16% tougher.
- Against basic-Fortitude-based saves, the 16 Con Oracle is 33% tougher.
And that's during level 1-4, when the AC difference is the highest. At level 5+, the 16 Con Oracle is tougher than the 16 Dex Oracle even against AC-based attacks.
So, when you put 16 Dexterity and 12 Constitution to all your builds, I think you vastly overvalue AC on casters. 16 Constitution, 12 Dexterity Oracles are extremely valid builds, and arguably better ones actually.
Yes good points but also:
- The higher Dex character will be better in its occasional weapon attack.
- The Con character is 16% more expensive to heal because of the extra hitpoints.
- Stealth is my initiative roll of choice for most of these builds because your perception ranks are controlled and low. Initiative is important.
- Damage is not the only effect of a hit.
- AC and Reflex attacks are much more common. Especially early when total hitpoints are low.
- Higher Dex mean less critical hits, I find its the critical hits and the repeated hits in one round that take players out. More regular damage is more manageable.
Very happy if someone wants to do it differently. But I still prefer 16 Dex where I can get it. I do know I keep looking back at the ability score array and thinking I really need to push that CON to 14, and a particular race or voluntary flaws might do it.
- The higher Dex character will be better in its occasional weapon attack.
- Stealth is my initiative roll of choice for most of these builds because your perception ranks are controlled and low. Initiative is important.
That's completely up to the player. If the player wants to use weapon attacks or to be stealthy, they can increase Dexterity. But there's no incentive in the Oracle class to either go for weapons nor Stealth.
- The Con character is 16% more expensive to heal because of the extra hitpoints.
Mostly invalid as you are both the healer and not a tank. When you start taking damage, what's important is to survive. If you have the chance to heal, you can certainly escape damage entirely at that stage.
- Damage is not the only effect of a hit.
But the extra effects on a hit are very often not stackable. So once you have been hit once, there's only damage left to hits.
- AC and Reflex attacks are much more common. Especially early when total hitpoints are low.
Poison is a killer at low level. Fortitude is more important than Reflex if you want to survive. And as you are the healer, if you go down to poison, your chances of survival are extremely low (both because of low Fortitude saves and limited healing to get you back on feet).
- Higher Dex mean less critical hits
I definitely agree. You take a lot more critical hits. But the damage spikes are the same (you can't take more damage than a critical hit).
I find its the critical hits and the repeated hits in one round that take players out.
Low Constitution ones, yes. Not high Constitution ones. High Constitution characters can suck damage spikes when low Constitution characters are reliant on luck to survive (and luck won't always be on your side).
Anyway, these are your builds. It's just that you give nearly always the same attribute arrays giving the false impression that Dexterity is extremely important to an Oracle when it's as important as Constitution and Wisdom. And depending on your Mystery, it's even less important (you definitely want Constitution on a Life Oracle as you won't be healed and you'll take a ton of unavoidable damage).
Was the cleric a cloistered or a warpriest?
Cloistered. Shield spell, nothing else to survive (he disregards Sanctuary despite playing mostly a healer).
I was surprised, as being 3 to 5 points of AC behind the curve is just absolutely unbearable in this game. But casters are not meant to take much attacks. A good hit point pool allows you to suck most of the damage you can take in a fight.A cloistered one with 10 dex would be annihilated in one or two by a boss or a lvl +2 enemy
It's actually the opposite. Whatever your AC a boss will critically hit you. So the only thing that can save you is to have enough hps to survive.
Actually, when looking at the Life Oracle, I don't see how you can play one with low Constitution. For example, if the party takes a Fireball at level 5, and if you fail your save (just a failure, nothing incredible), you lose 21 hit points + 2x5 hit points from Life Link. Considering that a 14 Con Human Oracle has 68 hit points, you are in the red, as the next Fireball can put you down. So you need to get healed, but you have a resistance to healing.
In my opinion, a 12 Con Life Oracle is just not playable. You'll go down far too often due to your own spells and effects. The Life Oracle second attribute is definitely Constitution, Dexterity is third only.
@Gortle: Thanks for this post! It's quite helpful for a character whose build I've been planning (an ancestors oracle, and I'd just been looking at the marshal archetype a couple days ago so I'm glad to see others feel it may be a good fit as well). I did notice one error that looks like it hasn't been reported yet: For the Ancestors build, retraining into Ancestral Paragon at level 13 shouldn't actually allow you to take a level 13 ancestry feat as seems to be indicated in this build. Ancestral Paragon specifically allows you to gain a 1st-level ancestry feat.
For example, yesterday the warpriest managed to avoid several -5 attacks from the boss, as well as turned out critical hit from the main one into normal hits.
Compared to him, the monk got critted way more ( had 3 AC less than the warpriest ), resulting in way more damage. He managed to survive because of his hp ( but he easily lost 50+50+30 hp in a round out of 170 ).
You are speaking of melee characters, I'm speaking of backline characters. On a melee character, I'd never get out without maxed AC, you are attacked way too often to survive. But spellcasters are rarely attacked and won't stay at melee range if they are, so most of the time you only need to survive a limited amount of time before disengaging (very often a single round). And to survive this amount of time, hit point pool is as valuable as AC.
To illustrate what I mean, I've made a small calculation:
2 level 4 Oracles, one with 16 Con (50 hp) and 12 Dex (20 AC) and one with 12 Con (42 hp) and 16 Dex (22 AC) face a High attack bonus (+14) Extreme damage (2d10+7) level 4 monster making 2 Strikes in a row: the 16 Dex Oracle has 15.03% chances to go down, the 16 Con Oracle only 13.55%.
Same Oracles against an Extreme attack bonus (+16) High damage (2d8+5) level 4 monster making 2 Strike in a row: the 16 Dex Oracle has 10.63% chances to go down, the 16 Con Oracle only 9.02%.
Same Oracles (with Canny Acumen for Reflex), but now we are speaking of 2 DC 21 Fireballs in a row: The 16 Dex Oracle goes down 18.14% of the time, the 16 Con Oracle only 17.29% of the time.
So even if the monsters attack AC or Reflex directly, the sheer amount of hit points protects the high Constitution Oracle more than the high Dexterity one.
Casters don't take constant damage like martials do. They take sudden and unpredictable damage spikes. You don't need to mitigate damage over multiple rounds. Sure, it can happen, but if you are taking multiple rounds of attack from a sizeable opponent, you will go down for sure. What you don't want is to go down because a monster makes an unpredictable move and attacks you before your martials could react. As long as you survive these cases, you should be fine for most fights. That's why I say that high Constitution is more valuable than high Dexterity for the survival of a spellcaster.
Yeah, from the GM side it's easy to make an encounter feel difficult with strategy when such a player is there (have your ranged specialist monsters target "the healer" or the "backline caster" first and focus free them)
But that's a very small percentage of encounters. I don't know exactly how many but I'd ballpark that over 50% of creatures on AoN have -5/-4 intelligence, so they shouldn't strategise at all.
I concede the point to superbidi, but as GM's, once in a while, just make sure to have two archers or gunslingers focus fire the 12 dex Oracle in the back, just to make them s~~# their pants !