First a little background. The group I’m in currently is nearing the end of an adventure path so I’ve been looking at possible classes to play. I was going to make a druid, which has always been one of my favorite classes, and try out focusing on shapeshifting but it looks like we will probably be doing Agents of Edgewatch next sooo… yeah I through that idea out.
Then after reading several other classes I looked at the inventor. I’ve never played a character like this before and thought the steampunk feel could be fun and would fit in well with the city. I started getting an idea I liked where my inventor would have a “wolf” construct and use her abilities to support it in battle.
Honestly I would have preferred to focus on the construct and support but after reading through it I realized the inventor is built a bit more like a front liner with good armor and weapon proficiencies. Not quite what I was looking for but that’s fine. So, as a test, I tried sketching out a 20th level construct companion and compared that to my druids’ wolf companion which brought up some questions.
As far as I can tell the wolf animal companion seems just as good as the construct. Both have different strengths and weaknesses but they seemed about equal. Which while not quite what I wanted that’s fine and I could work with it. Except looking at the inventor they seem strictly weaker than the druid.
Hit points and saves are about the same. But my druid maxed wisdom and was a full spell caster whereas the inventor appears MAD and has nothing that I see that will be anywhere close to the power or flexibility of full spell casting.
Now they don’t have to necessarily be as “strong” as a druid but I want to know they will be able to carry their own weight and be able to “shine” from time to time. Right now I’m not convinced, especially at high levels. So what experiences has everyone had? Am I missing some critical ability or abilities? I read everything in one go so I know I’m experiencing a bit of information overload but I wanted to ask rather than going back and rereading especially if I’m wasting my time.
Any insight would be appreciated, especially if it includes actual play experience.
The Inventor has full martial attack values and the Druid does not really have that except perhaps in wild shape. The Inventor has a bag of tricks, and can bend some of the boundary lines of the game. But you realy need to understand how you are going to use the tricks to really get a hold of an Inventor concept. I think it is one of the harder classes to do well.
The inventor is mostly an unga bunga martial class with a megavolt AoE (may as well be a mandatory feat), a rage style booster (overdrive) and a couple of gadgets similar to an alchemist dedication (gadget specialist feat).
As a martial combatant, it's slightly behind the CRB martials due to its 8hp and bad core stat. Overdrive, your damage mechanic, is easy to turn on and skill scaling means you can look forward to a fair number of critical success activations later on. Unlike rage it works at range so you can reduce MADness with a dex build.
Gadgets have some uses, I haven't played edgewatch so I can't particularly recommend any specific for the campaign, but you can't go wrong with ablative armor as a default. There are some fun ones there, but don't expect anything too impressive.
Companion is probably the weakest inventor spec. Conversely, nobody has a companion that scales like the druid's. If you really want a companion, consider talking with your gm and get them to consider allowing you to reflavor the beastmaster archetype as something mechanized. Whatever you do, don't take the companion feat that the inventor actually has available.
All-in-all, unless your gm ratchets up the difficulty, you should have no problems doing the bare minimum of carrying your weight. "Shining" though is going to be harder. You have AoE options in explode(level 1 class feature) and megavolt so if the party doesn't have any mook clear, that'll be your thing.
Oh, and you're basically nothing like a druid. If you want to compare inventor to something pick other martial classes.
There's no common point between a Druid Companion and the Construct Innovation.
Here's a graph showing the difference in damage.
The Construct Innovation is honorably competitive, especially considering that you gain an extra action when commanding it. At level 10+, Lock On is nearly necessary for the Construct to stay competitive, so you basically lose the advantage of the extra action.
Abilities like Megavolt and especially Gigavolt allow you to hit every enemies with a spell like attack, making the Inventor an excellent AoE martial (the best of the game actually).
Another thing to take into account is the strength of Quick Repair at level 15+. I know some GMs dislike it and nerf it, but by default it allows you to repair your companion at crazy speeds. Combined with the wall ability, you have a very strong controller.
If you want a strong pet character, the best is the Summoner, but the second one is the Construct Inventor. Compared to the Construct Innovation, Animal Companions are just decorations (a Nimble Companion deals half the damage of a Construct Innovation at high level).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Lock on is kinda complex.
it requires you to expend 1 action for the lock on and another one to command. if you pay twice the cost of command, you get better benefits.
Point it that the innovator is going to stay still, expending all of its 3 actions for the construct companion.
Apart from lvl 10/11/12/15, the difference is always going to be +2.
The point is that an innovato with a normal companion could achieve better results by simply commanding an animal companion to attack twice, while performing a megaton strike.
3 actions just to let the pet strike twice ( if it's already within the enemy reach. If not, 1 stride and 1 strike ).
If the inventor wants to do anything else from moving to repairing, from attacking to use a skill action, the lock on build suffers.
Eventually, you might exploit the power of muscular stimulator gadget in order to get and extra attack/stride, but even so the build would be rather stationary to me.In addition to this, if the enemy the pet is attacking dies, lock on is wasted.
If you use 2 actions to command your Companion, your Companion gets 3 actions, so you do a little more than 1 Stride and 1 Strike. Also, I don't understand your "difference is always going to be +2".
Also, Lock On is not something you do always. It gives you the ability, when you Lock On, to have a quite competitive companion. When you don't Lock On, you can Megavolt, Repair or whatever. The game doesn't force you to Lock On.And your comparison with a Megaton Strike is not working as you assume that the Inventor is at melee range to make the Megaton Strike, otherwise you lose the ability to benefit from your Nimble Companion attack. What I want to show is that the Construct Inventor can be a competitive pet build. It's not the easiest one to play, I agree with that, it's not the most optimized build out there, clearly, but it's not that bad. It works.
Personally, I prefer to use the Construct Companion as a Mount at high level, instead of taking the Lock On route. I think it's stronger. It's another way of playing it: As a Companion at low level when it's really strong, and as a mount at high level when it starts to fade in efficiency.
But you forget Overdrive and the d6 bonus damage. The Construct Innovation has way more than just a +2 compared to a Nimble Companion. Hence the massive difference in expected damage.
Megaton forces you to be at melee range. On top of that, at high level, you heal a crazy amount of your Companion hit points for one action. So, both builds are hardly comparable.
Now, if you ask me which one is better, the Companion build beats the Megaton build before level 10 and is worse after. I agree that Lock On is necessary to keep the Construct Innovation competitive, but it's not good enough to keep it as good as before. But overall you compare a martial with a mostly useless companion to a pet character, so the comparison is kind of moot.
pps: as for megaton strike, it requires you to be melee only with the armor inventor. A weapon inventor can strike with a ranged weapon.
With a bow, you do as much damage with your Megaton Strike than 2 Strikes from a one-action locked on Construct Innovation. So it's no more "that" interesting. And Lock On + Command Construct doesn't raise your Map so after that you can Strike with a bow also as a Construct Innovation Inventor and outdamage the Megaton Strike archer.
Overall, I won't say that the Construct Inventor is the best build out there. But it's not that bad as to consider it unplayable. For me, it's main drawback is that depending on your level, the Construct can be pretty strong or quite weak, so it's an inconsistent build.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Has anyone tried using a construct companion gained from multiclassing into Inventor as a mount? Purely for mobility, not offensive. Takes a while to really shine since you can't get the advanced features until level 8, but I can live with that.
Its immunities compared to an animal companion should be useful and quick repair makes it easy to heal. I'm just wondering if delaying the second upgrade to level 16 leaves it too fragile when it comes to HP, AC and saves.
This is also for a character who takes Inventor multiclass for other reasons so I can't simply get beast master or cavalier instead.
I have the feel you are not following my reasoning.
I am perfectly following your reasoning. And as I said above, before level 10, the Construct Inventor will overshadow the bow Weapon Inventor. Starting at level 10, you are locked with Lock On to continue being competitive, and it's true that Lock On is not enough for the Construct Inventor to keep up with the bow Weapon Inventor.
Both builds are roughly equivalent, there's nothing like one build that vastly outperforms the other to the point of making it pointless.Has anyone tried using a construct companion gained from multiclassing into Inventor as a mount? Purely for mobility, not offensive. Takes a while to really shine since you can't get the advanced features until level 8, but I can live with that.
Your companion will have extremely low AC and Saves. For me, it really depends on what you face. Against AoEs, you'll lose it, as it will hardly succeed at a save. Against normal attacks, it will be critically hit all the time, but your GM may not be one who attacks mounts.
In my opinion, it should be fine if you're ok losing it once or twice during your career.
First, thanks for all the information, it’s given me a lot to chew on.
To those who stated you cannot compare a druid to an inventor, I respectfully disagree. I don’t look at 1 for one comparisons but broad strokes. I mostly ask, does this character (in this case the inventor) seem competitive in combat? How about out of combat? And finally, do they have any areas they can stand out and “shine” compared to another class.
With that is mind you can compare any two classes. Basically though, I just want to know if a class is fun to play and carries their own weight in a party.
The druid was a logical comparison because I know it well and they are both pet classes (at least the versions I was most interested in looking at). When comparing the construct to the animal companion (because really what else to you expect me to compare it to?), the animal companion seemed more durable (better reflex, armor class, and can be healed more easily) but the construct looked like it did a little more damage.
Overall I still believe this but this thread has given me several things to look at and reread. It seems the construct can be pumped up a bit more than I had first realized. To start with when calculating damage I somehow completely missed the Offensive Boost. Also, I read Megavolt and didn’t care for it so I think I missed or glazed over the upgrade Gigavolt which makes it much more impressive.
This threads given me alot of ideas to look at so I think I’m going to sit down and try sketching out an inventor from level 1-20. They seem interesting enough to be worth the time. With that in mind I have some more questions.
1) While it’s still 4 to 6 weeks out it looks like the group will probably need a rogue. If so I’m planning to take Reverse Engineer so I can deal with traps… but the 2nd level class ability has the prerequisite: expert in crafting which I don’t (and can’t) get till 3rd level, is that a mistake?
2) Can you activate megavolt and gigavolt for your construct? The wording seems to imply you can, so you could have your construct attack twice and then you could use megavolt/gigavolt to release a bolt of lightning from the construct. Am I reading that correctly? It seems important since if that’s not possible the ability seems less useful to me and may or may not be worth the investment depending on the build.
3) What feats or abilities, if any, would you consider must have’s for construct focused inventor?
4) What are your opinions of the armor and weapon inventors? I suspect I’ll stick with construct if I go with an inventor but you never know. I like a wide variety of play styles so it’ll be dependent on whether or not a particular character concept strikes a chord with me or not.
There's no common point between a Druid Companion and the Construct Innovation.
Here's a graph showing the difference in damage.
The Construct Innovation is honorably competitive, especially considering that you gain an extra action when commanding it. At level 10+, Lock On is nearly necessary for the Construct to stay competitive, so you basically lose the advantage of the extra action.
The lost of actions from Lock On to the Inventor is important to think about. If you aren't mounted on your companion, the Inventor is porbably better off making his own attack. When I built this I choose to go for Fake Out via Gun Slinger for a more action efficienct way of getting the circumstance bonus to attack. That method of course is not particular to any one type of mount.
Lock On is most useful for the mounted Inventor
2) Can you activate megavolt and gigavolt for your construct? The wording seems to imply you can, so you could have your construct attack twice and then you could use megavolt/gigavolt to release a bolt of lightning from the construct. Am I reading that correctly? It seems important since if that’s not possible the ability seems less useful to me and may or may not be worth the investment depending on the build.
Unfortunately, you can't. The Inventor specifies: "To take an unstable action, you must be using your innovation (for example, wearing an armor innovation or wielding a weapon innovation). If you have a minion innovation, some unstable actions are taken by the minion instead of you. In these cases, only the minion can take that action, and the minion needs to have been Commanded that turn to take the action. If you critically fail the flat check, the minion takes the damage instead of you."
In the case of Megavolt/Gigavolt, only the Construct can take them. But you can (and have to) activate Explode by yourself, so you can use the Construct actions to attack and then use Explode with your actions.
3) What feats or abilities, if any, would you consider must have’s for construct focused inventor?
Megavolt is a must have with the Minion, as you can position it very easily. Gigavolt is a must have for every Inventor, so you should grab the upgrade.
Quick Repair is a must have at level 7+ (especially at level 15+) as it allows you to heal your Minion during the fight.Appart from that, you have the choice at level 10 between Lock On and Construct Shell. So these ones are important (I prefer Construct Shell if I mount my Minion, Lock On is mandatory if you want your Minion to stay competitive).
4) What are your opinions of the armor and weapon inventors? I suspect I’ll stick with construct if I go with an inventor but you never know. I like a wide variety of play styles so it’ll be dependent on whether or not a particular character concept strikes a chord with me or not.
I really like the Armor Inventor, which is a very special tank. I don't find the Weapon Inventor to be really worth it before very high level (Weapon of Destruction is the reason you play a Weapon Inventor). The only exception being ranged Weapon Inventor, which is quite nice.
As a side note, I wrote a Guide when the Inventor has been released.When I built this I choose to go for Fake Out via Gun Slinger for a more action efficienct way of getting the circumstance bonus to attack. That method of course is not particular to any one type of mount.
Lock On is most useful for the mounted Inventor
Fake Out is excellent, but it doesn't have the same purpose than Lock On. I'd personally use Fake Out on my allies and Lock On on my Construct (the Construct damage output is not high enough to justify using Fake Out on it, in my opinion).
Also unless I'm missing something the construct companion massively outperforms normal AC's damage wise because of overdrive (assuming it's an innovation) ??
Also unless I'm missing something the construct companion massively outperforms normal AC's damage wise because of overdrive (assuming it's an innovation) ??
Yes, the Construct Innovation does roughly 50% more damage than an Animal Companion.
Actually, with Lock On at high level, it does the same amount of average damage than a Strength-Eidolon.That's why I think the Construct Inventor is way better than people think it is. Before level 10, I even think it's one of the most solid martials in the game, combining an Eidolon level Construct and a potent martial with the Inventor.
Also unless I'm missing something the construct companion massively outperforms normal AC's damage wise because of overdrive (assuming it's an innovation) ??Yes, the Construct Innovation does roughly 50% more damage than an Animal Companion.
Actually, with Lock On at high level, it does the same amount of average damage than a Strength-Eidolon.
That's why I think the Construct Inventor is way better than people think it is. Before level 10, I even think it's one of the most solid martials in the game, combining an Eidolon level Construct and a potent martial with the Inventor.
Yes it does have some good damage bonuses and options. Its just that the to hit number is more important as its a modifier to total damage. IMHO the inventor is good, but only in a party or in a build where you give it some pluses to hit.
Comparing it to the druid is woefully inadequate imo, since the druid does not need an animal companion at all and even when they do the main power of the class is full prepared spellcasting with the primal list and killer order spell, not writer or not you have an animal.
A better comparison would be vs the ranger, now there could be an argument to be had between the two and which one has the edge at which level.
Did a small mock build at 20:
Bear companion (Ranger master) (large)
STR: 7
DEX: 4
CON: 4
INT: -4
WIS: 3
CHA: 0
208 hp
AC: 38 (with barding)
Saves: FORT 30 REF 30 WILL 29
Attacks (flurry): 31/30/29 3d8+10 or 3d6+10
Construct companion (Max int inventor, which is the appeal of the construct)
Mecha Dogo Companion (Large)
STR: 7
DEX: 7
CON: 6
INT: -4
WIS: 5
CHA: 0
250 hp
AC: 41 (with barding)
Saves: FORT 32 REF 33 WILL 31
Immune to: bleed, death effects, disease, doomed, drained, fatigued, healing, necromancy, nonlethal attacks, paralyzed, poison, sickened, unconscious.
Attacks (crit Overdrive): 31/27/23 3d8+21 or 3d6+21
Can be: legendary in 2 skills, become a wall, can explode, can gigavolt, etc etc etc.
I think its really no contest, the construct innovation is just knocking AC's out of the park
I think that's by design because its really the focus of the class as an innovation, whereas a ranger with AC can also shoot and fight fairly well himself, whereas the inventor has to kinda give up on efficient fighting itself to be a construct innovation specialist.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
One hidden advantage of the construct companion: it is quicker to replace than other minions and you're not endangering a life by putting it in harm's way. Treating it as disposable in scenarios without a ticking clock opens up interesting possibilities. For example, one of my groups is planning to attach an inventory for a wagon full of barrels of oil and then position it outside the entrance to a troll's cave. Detonating the oil will almost certainly scrap the second level construct, but it will also massively soften up an otherwise severe encounter.
A summon wouldn't last long enough for such a plan, and no one would ever subject their animal companion to it. But having a credible melee threat you can sacrifice without moral bankruptcy is nice for preplanned encounters, covering retreats, and so on.
As a note, construct companions can't wear barding. They are only ever proficient with unarmored defense.Did a small mock build at 20:
Bear companion (Ranger master) (large)
STR: 7
DEX: 4
CON: 4
INT: -4
WIS: 3
CHA: 0208 hp
AC: 38 (with barding)Saves: FORT 30 REF 30 WILL 29
Attacks (flurry): 31/30/29 3d8+10 or 3d6+10
Construct companion (Max int inventor, which is the appeal of the construct)
Mecha Dogo Companion (Large)
STR: 7
DEX: 7
CON: 6
INT: -4
WIS: 5
CHA: 0250 hp
AC: 41 (with barding)Saves: FORT 32 REF 33 WILL 31
Immune to: bleed, death effects, disease, doomed, drained, fatigued, healing, necromancy, nonlethal attacks, paralyzed, poison, sickened, unconscious.Attacks (crit Overdrive): 31/27/23 3d8+21 or 3d6+21
Can be: legendary in 2 skills, become a wall, can explode, can gigavolt, etc etc etc.
I think its really no contest, the construct innovation is just knocking AC's out of the park
I think that's by design because its really the focus of the class as an innovation, whereas a ranger with AC can also shoot and fight fairly well himself, whereas the inventor has to kinda give up on efficient fighting itself to be a construct innovation specialist.
Quite right, these values are a copy paste error, the AC of the construct is without barding
Not sure why te comparison is with a str AC (bear) instead of a dex AC (wolf, bird) and a flurry ranger when a precision ranger would be better for damage of the Animal.
AC 38 -> 45
Reflex 30 -> 35
Th 31/30/29 -> 33/28
Dam 3d8+10 (24) -> 6d8+6 (33) and 5d8+6 (29)
Attack and defense-wise, the dex AC is better than the construct (only the first attack is interesting anyways and that is better for the AC).
It's the other things you'd want a construct for, in combat stats, the dex AC is just better.
Not sure why te comparison is with a str AC (bear) instead of a dex AC (wolf, bird) and a flurry ranger when a precision ranger would be better for damage of the Animal.
AC 38 -> 45
Reflex 30 -> 35
Th 31/30/29 -> 33/28
Dam 3d8+10 (24) -> 6d8+6 (33) and 5d8+6 (29)Attack and defense-wise, the dex AC is better than the construct (only the first attack is interesting anyways and that is better for the AC).
It's the other things you'd want a construct for, in combat stats, the dex AC is just better.
Yah just went off the first thing I saw that was vaguely adequate.
Very competitive! The construct obviously is more versatile but built that way the animal companion does have some raw staying power.
Not sure why te comparison is with a str AC (bear) instead of a dex AC (wolf, bird) and a flurry ranger when a precision ranger would be better for damage of the Animal.
AC 38 -> 45
Reflex 30 -> 35
Th 31/30/29 -> 33/28
Dam 3d8+10 (24) -> 6d8+6 (33) and 5d8+6 (29)Attack and defense-wise, the dex AC is better than the construct (only the first attack is interesting anyways and that is better for the AC).
It's the other things you'd want a construct for, in combat stats, the dex AC is just better.
It's not that simple, as you may add Lock On. With 2 action Lock On at level 20, the Construct has +3 to hit over the Nimble Companion, and deals 3d8+1d6+11+Overdrive (at that level, between 6 and 10) = 34 to 38 damage.
Anyway, the Precision Ranger is just a completely different build, so it doesn't help that much. Without the 3d8 from the Edge, the Nimble AC is way worse in offensive terms. Also, the Nimble AC does 3d8+8 damage and the Savage one 3d8+13.