One thing I'd be interested in seeing in a weapon summoning cantrip is it creating an advanced weapon unarmed weapon and rather than it automatically scaling damage, it scales proficiency and still uses runes.
Something like
summon sword cantrip 1
1 action
1d6 slashing damage (maybe d8? not sure)
Uses casting stat
Trained prof
Scaling
Lvl 3 expert prof
Lvl 7 master profThen you'd still have to participate in buying weapon runes and would still have some of the flexibility it presents.
fully open to damage type/die changes to be more balanced and effective.
Interesting, and well aligned with PF2 norms if a two-action spell and if by level you mean the Cantrip's level not the caster's. Those norms do allow sizable buffs when that buff is patching up a hole. So such a Cantrip would likely be useful for a spellcaster, though unlikely of any use for a martial.
Might even be able to toss in Weapon Specialization.As for using the casting stat for an actual weapon, that's tricky territory so I'd lean toward no, that the Cantrip gives proficiency only, though damage of course would be the balancing factor.
I want to swing a giant finger around and give finger pokes of doom.
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I'm wondering what people might think of a Class Ability, Focus Spell, or Archetype for this concept that relies on using Runestones.
It's a perfect thematic fit for the discussion and you could quite easily balance the economy of wealth and also allow the Weapon Conjuration together by having the effect simply apply up to 1 Etched Runestone on your person per Spell Level. Of course, the Conjured Weapon would need to legally qualify for all of the Runes that are to be transferred in the process but I don't see any real reason why you couldn't let this function as a Focus Spell with a 1-hour duration and have the Runes be temporarily disabled/inert while the Spell is in effect.
Limit to Weapons you are at least trained in the use of and also have Access to, and heck, I don't even really see much of a reason why this could not work just as well for Conjured Armor effects too. This makes it so that the PC is still having to spend 95% + of the cost to buy those effective and level scaled Magic Weapons/Armor and keeps things from having to be balanced around and completely defined by a singular Spell Description.
If you can spend one spell slot per day on having a weapon that is as good as what martial characters spend like 35% of their money on...it's a huge balance problem.I dont think it would be too broken to be able to spend one of your high level slots to conjure a weapon for a short period of time, like 1-10 minutes.
Considering most buff spells have been reduced in duration so that they only last for one combat (by virtue of being really short) I would probably say it would need to be 1 minute long at best.
Maybe it would be balanced if you followed something like the Automatic Bonus Progression progression
Ch Level 2 Attack potency +1 - Spell level 1
Ch Level 4 devastating attacks (2 dice) - Spell level 2
Ch Level 10 Attack potency +2 - Spell level 5
Ch Level 12 Devastating Attacks(3 dice) - Spell level 6
Ch Level 16 Attack potency +3 - Spell level 8
Ch Level 19 Devastating Attacks (4 dice) - Spell level 9
These spell levels would allow slightly earlier access than ABP, although we probably wouldn't see this spell used in ABP game, the potency rune is item level 2. So while the spell user can cast the spell and get access to runes slightly earlier, it's a very temporary basis and requires a spell of a the highest level they can cast at the time for 1 minute of use.
Of course it's 1 spell, that can be heightened for specific effects at the listed levels. I think this is fair since it can let a caster temporarily flex into using a weapon, but it's a significant cost to use their highest spell level.
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Closest spell seems to be mage armor, creating a long duration armor that effectively replaces the need to buy fundamental runes. Some comparable spell for creating magic weapons seems reasonable.
Probably still a 1st level spell to start off, giving a +1 weapon that uses your appropriate proficiency. Likely also limited that it can't be wielded by anyone other than the caster, but that it lasts until the next daily preparations.
Heightening could be something like:
(2nd) +1 striking weapon
(5th) +2 striking weapon
(7th) +2 greater striking weapon
(9th) +3 major striking weapon
This works well with mage armor's progression so that some armament-creator wizard could utilize both spells during their progression. It also closely parallels the gap between the level of magic armors vs weapons.
Using the characters actual proficiency with the weapon avoids extra complexity and should keep things balanced even with the slightly early access to the fundamental runes in some cases.
The problem is that allowing the weapon to last all day for one spell is inherently unbalanced, and really just isn't tenable IMO.
And this is where the real disagreement is going to be at.
I can agree that the spell can exist and replicate the runes, the issue is how long it can exist.
If it's permitted to be an all day spell it's really replacing a huge cost.
To be honest, I think mage armor is only allowed because defense just isn't as impactful. Honestly, mage armor is one case where the spell is probably too good compared to a lot of other spells available.
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On the other hand, an intended tradeoff of Mage Armor is that you don't get property runes. On armor, property runes aren't super important bonuses but on weapons there are. Would spending an 8th level spell slot for a day long +2 major striking weapon really appeal when this weapon is significantly less damage due to the lack of elemental/alignment damage runes?
On the other hand, an intended tradeoff of Mage Armor is that you don't get property runes. On armor, property runes aren't super important bonuses but on weapons there are. Would spending an 8th level spell slot for a day long +2 major striking weapon really appeal when this weapon is significantly less damage due to the lack of elemental/alignment damage runes?
To be honest, I don't think the power budget of certain property runes was really taken into account into their overall value.
But adding 3d6 damage in different elements is a pretty sizable increase to overall damage in PF2. However, I think not everyone is doing that kind of meta build where their weapons are decked out with as many 1d6 damage bonus runes as they can get.
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Eh, I don't think anyone casting that mage armament spell would be unbalanced by it.
Missing out on property runes is one thing, but they also need to spend one of their high-level-to-them spell slots each day to keep it. And by the time a fighter with some ability could pick up the spell, they'd probably be better off to just spend some money on a real weapon.
Magus could get some mileage out of it, but they don't have the most spell slots and would probably prefer property runes to bonus gold for even less spells. Even just one elemental rune is pretty decent and seems relatively standard once it's been available for a few levels.
"Mage Armament" as an all day buff wouldn't just be not overpowered, it'd be kind of a terrible use of spell slots. It'd generally be worth less in terms of gold saving than mage armor, while also being tied to an activity that is generally a terrible idea for spellcasters in the first place.
You could do weapon summoning as a 1 minute ability, but at that point simply summoning a regular weapon wouldn't really make sense. You'd want to model a mechanic like that off of form spells instead: huge attack and damage bonuses, possibly with other unique abilities baked into it.
Having a 1 minute duration spell that just replicates a normal weapon with no other mechanics attached to it would be beyond terrible though and completely untenable.
Another thing is that casters might be willing to spend a top level spell slot to heighten Mage Armor, because even casters get attacked and want to make their saves. But other than the Magus (whose spell slots are precious) what caster really wants to regularly make attacks with weapons? I guess the battle oracle, but for everybody else the weapon proficiency not scaling to keep up with martials it seems like this is not worth a top level spell slot.
But, to be fair, I've also never used the conjure weapon spells in Skyrim either because actual weapons are better.
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I think a particular problem with many of these suggestions that mimic Mage Armor is they're boring. Sure, defense like Mage Armor is kind of boring too, but we're talking about one's offense which IMO needs some splash and spice. Trying to mirror a typical weapon misses all of the opportunities here, including some which might make up for lacks elsewhere (like Rage, Weapon Specialization, etc.). PF2 doesn't offer much at the top of the curve to get higher, but it's generally generous at the bottom of the curve to get to middle ground. Which means there's some creative and mechanical space here too, if building for full casters.
If built for a specific class (or archetype) it seems the Magus has abilities which give precedent, like adding Property Runes that are in their spellbook or hiding a weapon in a magic sheath.
Speaking of Property Runes, this imagery could work as one too, with the rune allowing the wielder to summon or draw the weapon out of nowhere.
I like the idea of having Rune Stones on oneself which empower your weapon. Using a free hand to hold it opens up some options as that's a price, and the versatility of being able to swap which stones you draw upon would be cool without pushing the power curve. Perhaps swapping uses a Focus Spell, though I could see it being part of daily prep instead which would still be valuable.
I think a particular problem with many of these suggestions that mimic Mage Armor is they're boring.
Agree. That's why I kind of like the idea of short duration weapon summonings with high-powered effects, closer to PF2 shapeshifting (albeit without the movement or defensive or utility options) than Mage Armor.
Elden Ring's Carian Slicer is worth using because it's a uniquely powerful attack that runs off of your magical prowess in a way that traditional weapons just wouldn't for a pure caster (barring a few special exceptions). It's not just "Here's a dagger" have fun. Granted Elden Ring sidesteps the issue of cost a bit by expecting casters to upgrade their catalysts in the same way anyone else upgrads weapons.
Or to look at another game... Elementalists in Guild Wars 2 had a series of unique abilities that conjured elemental weapons with their own movesets. Frost bow and Fire Axe weren't just regular axes and bows, but entirely new and distinctly magical options.
Bound Weapons in Elder Scrolls are the closest to what Claxon was suggesting, but even those are uniquely powerful for most of the game in order to justify actually using them as spells (but again, as you point out, kind of boring).
Yes, shapeshifting would make a good baseline for a certain approach to this sort of mechanic. The spell could even include an attack bonus and set damage (hopefully w/ some cool effects & options too).
One-handed, two-handed, ranged, & perhaps thrown or reach could be the options w/ damage differing by choice, as well as the hands necessary of course.
If part of a class or archetype, there could be a "base one-handed weapon" w/ feats for adding those other options (which like Wild Shape also grant passive bonuses when using a different form). Spending feats could allow for more complex powers, like carrier effects or multi-attack routines. Example if you add Reach, you get a Swipe-like attack option with it and maybe the passive bonus when in other forms is gaining the Sweep trait (though there might have to be a cap on how many traits one can accumulate this way).