Why can't they do anything about it? What makes you believe this? Let me see this rule I missed other than disbelieve as an action.
There are lots of ranged attackers. Dragons with breath weapons. Witchfire with beams of energy. Wveryns with tail spikes. All that can fly and move around in the air.
Then there are purple worms who can burrow around you and come up at any point to attack, quickly swallow, and burrow away.
An illusion of any solid mass will instantly render both parties undetected to each other assuming they rely on sight. At minimum, you need to seek or interact with the illusion to disbelieve it. Seek has no mention of distance in regards to illusions, but it does mention using a 30ft cone or 15ft burst for precision in finding creatures. Given that I doubt you or anyone else would start rolling secret perception to break illusions the moment anybody casually observed a wide area, I'm assuming any long range encounter against beings that rely on sight can be trivialized by throwing up illusions as needed to prevent any effective offense past guess-work or long range AoE spells. Spell slots shouldn't be an issue since it's a 1st level spell and there's a staff that has it. Any arcane or occult caster or caster/caster multiclass should be fine.
More generally, even on an open plain, you can fairly effectively hide the party in contiguous illusion bursts (something hollow to not blind the party usually) to approach a position or buy time to enact some other plan. You aren't immune to area effects obviously, but in the dragon example, scent is still imprecise, and it still has no idea if it even has line of effect without checking for illusions and getting close enough to do so.
The wyvern and purple worm aren't even ranged combat though. As far as I can tell wyvern spikes are just reach and the worm still needs to enter melee to do anything. Considering the tremorsense and being unable to extend the illusion underground, there's not much point to...
So your answer to ranged attacking is to make it so neither side can attack the other? Not much of an answer to ranged attackers. And completely dependent on how mobile they are and what type of ranged attacks. Might work well against archers set up in one direction, not as good against a highly mobile witchfire or some caster moving around with flight.
Ranged attacking from highly mobile creatures is far more common at higher level who can move in three dimensions.
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Any creature that touches the image or uses the Seek action to examine it can attempt to disbelieve your illusion.
If you give the creatures no choice but to interact with the illusory object to do anything they are gonna do it. It's not like the ranged characters are just gonna go "welp, a wall is in the way, time to go home".
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Yes and no. The champion is generally pretty miserable at long ranged combat so it's important to have some way to deal with it as a party and how to play around it a a champion. Like how every champion is pre-trained in religion and should have trick magic item for a longstrider wand for improved mobility to close with ranged opponents or maybe eventually a wand of air walk.
If a wall suddently springs in existence between my Archer PC and his target, he shoots the wall. Which should be enough to get an attempt to disbelieve.
If the illusion is visual, and a creature interacts with the illusion in a way that would prove it is not what it seems, the creature might know that an illusion is present, but it still can’t ignore the illusion without successfully disbelieving it. For instance, if a character is pushed through the illusion of a door, they will know that the door is an illusion, but they still can’t see through it. Disbelieving an illusion makes it and those things it blocks seem hazy and indistinct, so even in the case where a visual illusion is disbelieved, it may, at the GM’s discretion, block vision enough to make those on the other side concealed.
I say it again, illusions have been massively buffed in this edition given that no matter how sure you might be it is an illusion you still need to seek or interact with it with your own actions to attempt to ignore it. All the wasted enemy actions aside, this again brings up the question of how close do you need to be to ignore an illusion and how willing is the gm to let players break illusions at the same distance they set.
When it comes to ranged combat, it will generally be an enemy or group of enemies who are built for it against a party where maybe one will excel at it or some members will be capable of it but not excel at it. The best solution then is to simply not let those enemies play their game. Moving in close enough and then disbelieving is 2 actions lost by itself. They then need to decide to attack or retreat, either leaving them open to attack or doing nothing with their turn and giving the caster the opportunity to just throw up a second illusion which needs yet another action to disbelieve.
Witchfire is a targeted ranged attack which gets neutered by undetected like any other ranged attack until they disbelieve. Once in range, nobody should have any issues closing in for attacks or spells.
Dragon breath still requires the dragon to get within 60-80ft in most cases if memory serves which is close enough to move into melee and casting range.
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I consider that attacking an illusion, even at range, is enough to attempt to disbelieve. If my arrow flies through the wall, then it is likely an illusion. And even if I cannot see through it, I can shoot blindly through it.
And if it does not work and I know my strength is ranged attack, time to withdraw. And, if needed, come back later with Dispel Magic.
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I don't think this illusion thing is much more than a trick. Most of the time, the PCs want to kill the enemies, be they cultists of Dahak or dangerous monsters that terrorize the region. Combats that the PCs prefer to avoid happen, but they are just fillers. If they are too many, there's a problem somewhere (in my opinion).
And if you want to kill the enemies, you won't put an illusion between you and them as it hinders your attack ability as much as theirs. The only case where it happens is if the party wants to flee, and that's the ideal moment for illusions (as a side note, it's the only time I've seen Illusory Object used during combat).
Ranged combat is a chore as a Champion. Outside Dex-based Champions (which are a minority), most Champions are hardly more than sitting ducks against enemies they can't reach.
If a wall suddently springs in existence between my Archer PC and his target, he shoots the wall. Which should be enough to get an attempt to disbelieve.
Yes once. But you have already screwed up your MAP so as the illusionist I've already had a success
I don't think this illusion thing is much more than a trick. Most of the time, the PCs want to kill the enemies, be they cultists of Dahak or dangerous monsters that terrorize the region. Combats that the PCs prefer to avoid happen, but they are just fillers. If they are too many, there's a problem somewhere (in my opinion).
And if you want to kill the enemies, you won't put an illusion between you and them as it hinders your attack ability as much as theirs. The only case where it happens is if the party wants to flee, and that's the ideal moment for illusions (as a side note, it's the only time I've seen Illusory Object used during combat).Ranged combat is a chore as a Champion. Outside Dex-based Champions (which are a minority), most Champions are hardly more than sitting ducks against enemies they can't reach.
Yes and No. If your party is going to just charge in an attack then maybe not. At least it can potentially block line of sight or provide cover for hiding or the Take Cover action. If your side is haevy with melee specialists and you can't yet effectively get to melee range it is important. Your side will probably know its an illusion, the other side will waste actions on it. If there is interesting terrain and some tactics involved it can be much more useful
[/Off-Topic]?Yes and no. The champion is generally pretty miserable at long ranged combat so it's important to have some way to deal with it as a party and how to play around it a a champion. Like how every champion is pre-trained in religion and should have trick magic item for a longstrider wand for improved mobility to close with ranged opponents or maybe eventually a wand of air walk.
If a wall suddently springs in existence between my Archer PC and his target, he shoots the wall. Which should be enough to get an attempt to disbelieve.If the illusion is visual, and a creature interacts with the illusion in a way that would prove it is not what it seems, the creature might know that an illusion is present, but it still can’t ignore the illusion without successfully disbelieving it. For instance, if a character is pushed through the illusion of a door, they will know that the door is an illusion, but they still can’t see through it. Disbelieving an illusion makes it and those things it blocks seem hazy and indistinct, so even in the case where a visual illusion is disbelieved, it may, at the GM’s discretion, block vision enough to make those on the other side concealed.I say it again, illusions have been massively buffed in this edition given that no matter how sure you might be it is an illusion you still need to seek or interact with it with your own actions to attempt to ignore it. All the wasted enemy actions aside, this again brings up the question of how close do you need to be to ignore an illusion and how willing is the gm to let players break illusions at the same distance they set.
When it comes to ranged combat, it will generally be an enemy or group of enemies who are built for it against a party where maybe one will excel at it or some members will be capable of it but not excel at it. The best solution then is to simply not let those enemies play their game. Moving in close enough and then...
I have fought Witchfire with a champion. Witchefires fight in the air. They move fast. If you can't fly and fly fairly fast, you are going to have problems.
Illusions are not as easy to use as you make them seem. Not at all. The number and variation on ranged attackers is immense. The only way I've found to counter them is either have strong ranged capability yourself or get people flying as fast as possible which is much easier to do as you level as well.
An illusion might buy you some time if you need it, but you're still likely to need a lot of flying ability which I generally build for at this point in time given how often flying is used at higher levels.
Champion is not great in 3D combat.
Champion is not great in 3D combat.
Agreed. But neither are a lot of classes. Many are heavily orientated to melee range. I'm just not finding free form open movement a common situation, easpecially in published modules.
Champion is not great in 3D combat.Agreed. But neither are a lot of classes. Many are heavily orientated to melee range. I'm just not finding free form open movement a common situation, easpecially in published modules.
Admittedly, having a heavily 3d game can be hard in and of itself. You get into the awkwardness of showing that the enemy is elevated above the ground (stands, markers indicating elevation, etc). There are solutions, but they can be cumbersome.
Usually, the general assumption I find is that the enemy is often at the height of "just out of sword reach". Maybe "out of the reach of your favorite spell" if it is an issue. It gets treated more of an "on/off" switch, rather than as a distinct and fully fleshed out dimension you build around.
Champion is not great in 3D combat.Agreed. But neither are a lot of classes. Many are heavily orientated to melee range. I'm just not finding free form open movement a common situation, easpecially in published modules.
I have found it more common at higher levels. And when it does occur, the party can really get decimated if they are not prepared. Modules can have 90% of the encounters easy to beat with your standard tactics, then there is that other 10% where you really have to work to win. It is those encounters that decide the success or failure of the entire adventure.
Yes and No. If your party is going to just charge in an attack then maybe not. At least it can potentially block line of sight or provide cover for hiding or the Take Cover action. If your side is haevy with melee specialists and you can't yet effectively get to melee range it is important. Your side will probably know its an illusion, the other side will waste actions on it. If there is interesting terrain and some tactics involved it can be much more usefulI don't think this illusion thing is much more than a trick. Most of the time, the PCs want to kill the enemies, be they cultists of Dahak or dangerous monsters that terrorize the region. Combats that the PCs prefer to avoid happen, but they are just fillers. If they are too many, there's a problem somewhere (in my opinion).
And if you want to kill the enemies, you won't put an illusion between you and them as it hinders your attack ability as much as theirs. The only case where it happens is if the party wants to flee, and that's the ideal moment for illusions (as a side note, it's the only time I've seen Illusory Object used during combat).Ranged combat is a chore as a Champion. Outside Dex-based Champions (which are a minority), most Champions are hardly more than sitting ducks against enemies they can't reach.
Nothing in the rules mentions that your side has an automatic disbelief or even an increased chance to disbelieve the illusion.
Considering that caster DC's scale better than perception checks, casting an illusionary wall is severely gimping your team as well as theirs.
Also this is very much a "white room" argument, I have a kobold wizard running right now with illusory object and I can tell you that I am looking to use it every fight and rarely find a reason to.
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To help with ranged, I gave my Champion the Cleric Archetype, and took Domain Initiate (Earth). Divine Lance is a decent enough ranged option, but Hurtling Stone has been fun to surprise enemies with. Domain Initiate gives you a second Focus Point, so it's not just a once-per-combat trick, and your Divine spell attack increases to Expert at 9th, so it's a far better option than using any ranged weapon when your Dex is only 10 (not to mention the lack of hands required).
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Personally I prefer Extending Rune for a ranged option for Paladins and Barbarians.
Personally I prefer Extending Rune for a ranged option for Paladins and Barbarians.
Looks goofy but effective. Currently I have a character where this would fit and look right. I built my champion like a Claymore warrior from the manga.
I usually pick up a flight ability from an ancestry or class feat.
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Not sure domain initiate gives you a second focus point ( like hymn of healing and similar spells).
It does for Champions.
Domain Initiate grants you a focus pool of 1 Focus Point, and, "If you have multiple abilities that give you a focus pool, each one adds 1 Focus Point to your pool".
And Monks.
Yes it can be fun imagining the effect of handwraps with and extending rune on a monks hand.
:)But Monks have a Dex score and can get a bow, which is better if you can find the feat to do it.
And Monks.Yes it can be fun imagining the effect of handwraps with and extending rune on a monks hand.
:)But Monks have a Dex score and can get a bow, which is better if you can find the feat to do it.
Or javelins, maybe even magic w/ Returning when the cost's minor.
Or Ki Blast for when a group of Harpy archers taunt you from right above.
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Not sure domain initiate gives you a second focus point ( like hymn of healing and similar spells).It does for Champions.
Domain Initiate grants you a focus pool of 1 Focus Point, and, "If you have multiple abilities that give you a focus pool, each one adds 1 Focus Point to your pool".
You're not quoting the whole section there:
Focus Points from Multiple Sources
It’s possible, especially through archetypes, to gain focus spells and Focus Points from more than one source. If this happens, you have just one focus pool, adding all the Focus Points together to determine the total size of your pool. (Remember that the maximum number of Focus Points a pool can have is 3.) If you have multiple abilities that give you a focus pool, each one adds 1 Focus Point to your pool. For instance, if you were a cleric with the Domain Initiate feat, you would have a pool with 1 Focus Point. Let’s say you then took the champion multiclass archetype and the Healing Touch feat. Normally, this feat would give you a focus pool. Since you already have one, it instead increases your existing pool’s capacity by 1.
What is meant by "more than one source" is not very clearly defined, but it's "especially through archetypes" and the example given is done through multiclassing.
If taking any feat with another focus spell always gave you an extra focus point, the "especially through archetypes" sentence doesn't make any sense. Also, some feats specify they give you an extra focus point, others don't; if a new feat always gave you a new focus point that wouldn't make sense either.
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And Monks.Yes it can be fun imagining the effect of handwraps with and extending rune on a monks hand.
:)But Monks have a Dex score and can get a bow, which is better if you can find the feat to do it.
You would need to pay for the runes on both handwraps and bow, though.
Also not all Monks raise DEX.
How much am I really giving up if I just do a Dex-based champion? Obviously you're down 1 AC from not wearing heavy armor, but since you're the legendary armor class (which includes light armor and no armor) you're still better than everybody else who's not a champion or monk. Lower damage dice and less weapon selection, but if you want to use your deity's weapon for RP reasons... well a lot of deities favor the rapier.
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How much am I really giving up if I just do a Dex-based champion? Obviously you're down 1 AC from not wearing heavy armor, but since you're the legendary armor class (which includes light armor and no armor) you're still better than everybody else who's not a champion or monk. Lower damage dice and less weapon selection, but if you want to use your deity's weapon for RP reasons... well a lot of deities favor the rapier.
Like Raven Black, you don't have to wear Medium armor.
I have a Dex-based Champion, a Paladin of Vildeis using daggers. She has Rogue Dedication (Sneak Attack and Far Throw) and should soon get Dual-Weapon Warrior. I quite like the concept of playing a Paladin that doesn't look like a Paladin at all. And it works fine. It's not the most optimized Paladin build ever but I don't feel I'm weak at all (Champion is quite a strong class, so you don't have to optimize it much to be efficient).Now, as usual with Dex-based martials compared to Str-based martials, you are weaker at low level, and the difference gets lower when you level as the lack of Strength to damage becomes less of a liability and the ability to efficiently use ranged weapons and the higher Reflex saves become more important. So it really depends on what level you intend to play. If this is a low level character, you should feel it. If this is for high level play, you won't see a difference.
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Not sure domain initiate gives you a second focus point ( like hymn of healing and similar spells).It does for Champions.
Domain Initiate grants you a focus pool of 1 Focus Point, and, "If you have multiple abilities that give you a focus pool, each one adds 1 Focus Point to your pool".
You're not quoting the whole section there:
What is meant by "more than one source" is not very clearly defined, but it's "especially through archetypes" and the example given is done through multiclassing.Focus Points from Multiple Sources
It’s possible, especially through archetypes, to gain focus spells and Focus Points from more than one source. If this happens, you have just one focus pool, adding all the Focus Points together to determine the total size of your pool. (Remember that the maximum number of Focus Points a pool can have is 3.) If you have multiple abilities that give you a focus pool, each one adds 1 Focus Point to your pool. For instance, if you were a cleric with the Domain Initiate feat, you would have a pool with 1 Focus Point. Let’s say you then took the champion multiclass archetype and the Healing Touch feat. Normally, this feat would give you a focus pool. Since you already have one, it instead increases your existing pool’s capacity by 1.
And the example given includes the very feat I mentioned ^_^
If taking any feat with another focus spell always gave you an extra focus point, the "especially through archetypes" sentence doesn't make any sense.
The Focus Spell is irrelevant. Domain Initiate actually gives you a Focus Pool.
Also, some feats specify they give you an extra focus point, others don't; if a new feat always gave you a new focus point that wouldn't make sense either.
Exactly. Again, it works this way for Champions, multiclassing into Cleric, and taking Domain Initiate, because of the rules on Focus Pools I quoted.
I never said anything about a general rule that learning a new Focus Spell gives you more Focus Points.