Rules Q- Very Large Characters & Attacks of Opportunity


Rules Questions


My question is a simple one that has spawned endless debate in multiple games -

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Does a Large creature move out of 2 squares or 4 when moving laterally? Or if moving diagonally does a large creature leave three squares or four with each step?
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This of course pertains to provoking attacks of opportunity in the Pathfinder 1 system, and assumes there is no charge and the movement is not a 5-foot step.

My players are arguing that the leading edge of large or bigger creatures provoke when moving toward a large PC. I posit that the leading edge of such creatures are simply moving through a threatened area and not leaving the threatened area since the creature is still within the threatened area after the move, which logically means the creature did not leave the threatened area.

Please advise as to a FAQ or rules post that addresses this confusion.


leaving an area that is threatened by an enemy with out using a 5 ft move provokes.

(gona make room incase my avatar screw up the diagram im going to use)
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lets look at a grid: the large (2X2) creature is at b2,b3,c2,c3 area.
A 0 0 0 0 0
B 0 + + 0 0
C 0 + + 0 0
D 0 0 0 0 0
E 0 0 0 0 0
F 0 0 0 0 0
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

if he only move 5 ft, no matter to which direction he doesn't provoke. and he move by stepping 5 fit in the same direction with all spaces.

lets say diagonally to the left and down. so he will move from b2,b3,c2,c3 to c3,c4,d3,d4 as such

A 0 0 0 0 0
B 0 0 0 0 0
C 0 0 + + 0
D 0 0 + + 0
E 0 0 0 0 0
F 0 0 0 0 0
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

if he move more then 5 ft he provoke from anyone who threat any of the squares he was on before moving (b2,b3,c2,c3) or (since he moved more then 5 ft) any other area he move out of that is threated by an enemy. so if he keep moving and go through e5 which an enemy can reach with melee attack once he try to exit it he provoke.

Liberty's Edge

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"Move out of X squares" doesn't matter at all.
Movement provokes if it isn't a 5' step.
A 20'x20' creature taking a 5' step leaves 4 squares if moving along the grid, 7 if moving diagonally, but it doesn't provoke.
A 20'x20' using a move action to move provokes in all its squares as all the parts of the creature are moving out of their current squares.

You and your players should remember that the game rules are written with the assumption that the PCs are medium or small humanoid creatures and are a bit lacking in details when dealing with non-humanoid or smaller or larger creatures.

The Exchange

I think I see what the argument is, is this stating it correctly?

-A large (2x2 or more) creature is moving. When he starts his movement he is not threatened in any squares.
-As he moves, he enters a threatened square.
-At this point he only continues moving for 5 feet more. At no point does he ever "move out of" the threatened square because some part of him is always in that threatened square.

I can't point you at an explicit designer post or FAQ example, but the overall AoO rules assume any movement that isn't a 5' step or a withdraw provokes. As Diego said, the rules are written for medium and small creatures. Your players are right and you are reading more into the words "move out of" than the rules intend.


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Like the others have stated, the language "moves out of a threatened square" does not mean "the entire creature has left that particular square." It's differentiating as a point of clarity that that moving *into* a threatened square does not immediately provoke.

"Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square." One of those actions is moving.

Further in the rules, in the AoO chart it lists "move" as provoking an AoO in the move action section. If you are in a threatened square and you take the "move" move action, you provoke an AoO (unless you're moving in a way that specifically does not provoke).

Is there a good reason outside of loose semantics why the large creature *wouldn't* provoke an AoO?


PF did try to simplify the DnD3.5 movement. I'd agree that it is a 5ft perspective.

Advice:
It depends on the INT of the creature how tactically it will move etc. Large humanoid creatures generally have reach and that means approaching them will provoke an AoO. Animals will withdraw(retreat) if the rate of damage exceeds what they can sustain in the next round, of course some are just hostile/dumb and would rather die than change tactics.
AoO aren't all that critical, especially with reach, so if moving is tactically advantageous try to minimized damage by giving AoOs to foes that don't do much. When the foes you left behind move up to attack it's likely they will provoke an AoO due to reach. Withdraw{Full or Std} IS an option.


I'm getting different responses here from @diegorossi & @Belafon.

I'm leaning toward Belafon's response:
-A large (2x2 or more) creature is moving. When he starts his movement he is not threatened in any squares.
-As he moves, he enters a threatened square.
-At this point he only continues moving for 5 feet more. At no point does he ever "move out of" the threatened square because some part of him is always in that threatened square.

as this was my logic initially. Somehow Diego's response of
"A 20'x20' using a move action to move provokes in all its squares as all the parts of the creature are moving out of their current squares. "
does not make logical sense to me - if a creature is still inside a threatened area after a move action then logically he never left a threatened area.

@Rawmonger The good reason is behind a single broken PC with too many AoO's and too much reach. Without forcing the character to re-roll I'm trying to make sure we have fair and balanced rules regarding my approaches to the character with equal sized mobs.


But belafon wasn’t responding to you, he was asking to clarify what your position is on it… I don’t mean to speak for him, but I’m quite certain he believes the movement provokes. Kind’ve unanimously we’re telling you that it definitely provokes, unless I’m mistaken.

Strong(er) pc’s should be attributed appropriate levels of aggression, assuming the creatures they’re fighting are intelligent enough to determine who the greatest threat is. Out of curiosity, what level is the PC and what sort of bonuses to hit and damage are we looking at?

Is the PC naturally large sized, or is he getting buffed by teammates? If your group wants to funnel a character I don’t see anything wrong with that. I mean combat reflexes, large size, and a reach weapon really shouldn’t be game-breaking.. that’s pretty standard play.

EDIT: Also, make sure you’re understanding that the player only gets *one* attack of opportunity per triggering instance… after ‘creature A’ provokes an AoO by moving through a threatened square, creature A can walk through as many other threatened squares as he wants and won’t provoke (to that player) again that turn. He’d have to do something else that provokes in a threatened square, like cast a spell.


RAWmonger wrote:
EDIT: Also, make sure you’re understanding that the player only gets *one* attack of opportunity per triggering instance… after ‘creature A’ provokes an AoO by moving through a threatened square, creature A can walk through as many other threatened squares as he wants and won’t provoke (to that player) again that turn. He’d have to do something else that provokes in a threatened square, like cast a spell.

This is almost correct but not quite. A character only provokes once per movement. This means that if it double moves, it can potentially provoke twice.


All of you are misrepresenting the rule… the rule states “leaving” a threatened square for a reason. You do not provoke from simply moving more than 5ft. If you did then you would also provoke from entering a threatened space, which we can all easily agree is not the case.

That said… yes… the rules are indeed written primarily for medium and small creatures. This is why the question is often phrased as asking how many squares a large creature is “moving out of” when it moves. If when moving 5ft a large creature is only considered to be “leaving” 2 squares then it would only provoke after it has moved 10ft through a single 5ft space. On the otherhand if they are considered to be “leaving” 4 spaces then they would provoke after the first 5ft in a threatened space.

This of course is assuming they are not taking a 5ft step, which by the way you can still move only 5ft and provoke. Electing to only move 5ft doesn’t on its own prevent provoking, you have to take the 5ft step action. If you spend your actual move action to only move 5ft, you do in fact, by both RAW and RAI, still provoke if you moved out of a threatened space.


TheKillerCorgi wrote:
RAWmonger wrote:
EDIT: Also, make sure you’re understanding that the player only gets *one* attack of opportunity per triggering instance… after ‘creature A’ provokes an AoO by moving through a threatened square, creature A can walk through as many other threatened squares as he wants and won’t provoke (to that player) again that turn. He’d have to do something else that provokes in a threatened square, like cast a spell.
This is almost correct but not quite. A character only provokes once per movement. This means that if it double moves, it can potentially provoke twice.

I can see why you’d think that, but no. It’s once per round per creature, regardless of double move or not.


Chell Raighn wrote:

All of you are misrepresenting the rule… the rule states “leaving” a threatened square for a reason. You do not provoke from simply moving more than 5ft. If you did then you would also provoke from entering a threatened space, which we can all easily agree is not the case.

That said… yes… the rules are indeed written primarily for medium and small creatures. This is why the question is often phrased as asking how many squares a large creature is “moving out of” when it moves. If when moving 5ft a large creature is only considered to be “leaving” 2 squares then it would only provoke after it has moved 10ft through a single 5ft space. On the otherhand if they are considered to be “leaving” 4 spaces then they would provoke after the first 5ft in a threatened space.

This of course is assuming they are not taking a 5ft step, which by the way you can still move only 5ft and provoke. Electing to only move 5ft doesn’t on its own prevent provoking, you have to take the 5ft step action. If you spend your actual move action to only move 5ft, you do in fact, by both RAW and RAI, still provoke if you moved out of a threatened space.

When a large creature moves 5', it leaves 4 squares. It also enters 4 squares. Depending on the direction of movement (orthogonal vs diagonal) 1 or 2 of the squares left will overlap with 1 or 2 of the squares entered.

The question of AoO or not is simply: is any square the creature occupies (before each 5' of movement) threatened? If so, then an AoO is provoked for movement (of course only one AoO for movement per round, no other specific rules in play, etc)

The Exchange

Yes, the creature in your situation does provoke.

The first part of my post was asking for confirmation that the argument was (as I thought) about the words “moves out of a threatened area.” Here’s the important part of my post.

Belafon wrote:
…the overall AoO rules assume any movement that isn't a 5' step or a withdraw provokes. As Diego said, the rules are written for medium and small creatures. Your players are right and you are reading more into the words "move out of" than the rules intend.

It’s worth noting that this applies to PCs under the effect of enlarge person or another size-increasing effect as well. It’s not a one-way rule.

Liberty's Edge

RAWmonger wrote:
TheKillerCorgi wrote:
RAWmonger wrote:
EDIT: Also, make sure you’re understanding that the player only gets *one* attack of opportunity per triggering instance… after ‘creature A’ provokes an AoO by moving through a threatened square, creature A can walk through as many other threatened squares as he wants and won’t provoke (to that player) again that turn. He’d have to do something else that provokes in a threatened square, like cast a spell.
This is almost correct but not quite. A character only provokes once per movement. This means that if it double moves, it can potentially provoke twice.
I can see why you’d think that, but no. It’s once per round per creature, regardless of double move or not.

Questionable.

CRB, Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity wrote:

This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity,

but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity).
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
CRB, Table 8.2 wrote:


Move Action Opportunity
Move Yes

So we have a source that says that you don't provoke multiple times for leaving threatened squares, and another source that says that you provoke, separately, every time you use a move action to move.

As I see it, if you take 2 separate move actions to move you provoke once for each action, if you take a full-round action to double move you provoke once.

Generally, there is no reason to use 2 separated move actions to move twice, but there is some corner case where you are forced to take two separated move actions consecutively, like crawling 10' or swimming to a cliff and then starting to climb.

That seems the better way to reconcile two conflicting pieces of the rules.


You can think that all you want, but you’re wrong. There is a direct quote in the AoO section that says “Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.” Round, not action. Round. Not action…. Round…. Not action.

There is no conflict, and no reconciliation necessary. There is a general rule given, and a specific rule altering it…. Sort of like an innumerable amount of other times in pathfinder. You do not provoke more than once per enemy for moving out a threatened square in a round. Did the developers suddenly forget the very basic fact that you can take two move actions? Doubtful.

Home rule it however you want, but here I was thinking the rules question forum cared about RAW.

Edit: also your phraseology is intentionally misleading and disingenuous. There are not two separate sources conflicting. They are the exact same rules entry, one sentence after the other in that exact order: general rule, specific rule about moving out of threatened squares.

EDIT 2: I see you were talking about the table they list: granted as two separate sources. Still I believe you’re wrong though. Just like size, they’re generalizing “movement” to assume walking. However in the attempt of climbing/swimming etc… you’re still moving out of a threatened square, so the specific rule still applies. Unless climbing/swimming specifically provokes an AoO in some instances, there’s nothing supposing you’d provoke again. This is likely here as a balance rule, or larger than medium creatures with reach weapons start to actually be abusive in already difficult-movement conditions.


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EDIT: The below is a reiteration of what RAWmonger posted while I was typing.

Diego Rossi wrote:


As I see it, if you take 2 separate move actions to move you provoke once for each action, if you take a full-round action to double move you provoke once.

So if my speed is 30', and I take a withdraw action, and after 25' of movement I am in a threatened area, and the next 5' of movement provokes, then I continue with my additional 30' of movement, moving out of another threatened square, but don't provoke since I've already provoke once for this action.

But if I take two move actions, I provoke twice, once for ending the last 5' of my first move action moving out of a threatened square, and then another one when I start my second move action.

I don't think that application of the rules is right.

But also note that the two sentenances you bolded are not in contradiction of each other. The first is the general rule - every provoking action allows an AoO. Then a specific rule about movement, you cannot provoke for movement more than once in a round.

Diego Rossi wrote:


Generally, there is no reason to use 2 separated move actions to move twice, but there is some corner case where you are forced to take two separated move actions consecutively, like crawling 10' or swimming to a cliff and then starting to climb.

That seems the better way to reconcile two conflicting pieces of the rules.

I'm not aware of any rules that state that splitting your movement between walking/swimming/climbing requires a separate move action for each movement mode. Eg, there is no rule I'm aware of that states if I move 10', then try to climb a rope I'm now standing under, that each requires a seperate move action. Splitting your movement out into percentages takes some effort, so I can see some people wanting to simplify it, but the rules don't state a "correct" way to do it.


"When a large creature moves 5', it leaves 4 squares. It also enters 4 squares. Depending on the direction of movement (orthogonal vs diagonal) 1 or 2 of the squares left will overlap with 1 or 2 of the squares entered."

This seems wrong and flys in the face of 20+ years of tabletop play.

Could it be that entire play groups have gotten this one wrong for years and years?

If a large creature is still in squares after a movement, did it really leave those squares? I still have yet to see a rules link that says yes or no.

I'm probably gonna get more crap for the runaway power level of the campaign, but a large (by 3pp race) level 13 PC going huge after a buff with a ranged weapon and 10+ AoO's is hands down the toughest of 24 pc's (out of 4 separate games ran out of the same campaign) to deal with.

Now I'm seeing this ruling, which feels contrary to the logic of the game that I've been playing since 3.0, making this one PC even stronger.

Wouldn't it make sense that equal sized enemies trump each other's AoO's similar to the fact that you need equal level spells to trump each other?

I'm probably just going to have to make a ruling here which is contrary to the feedback I'm getting. In the mean time I think I'm going to be seeking out some D&D 3.0 rules gurus to see if I can find anything different in the system that I learned originally which has changed little in the way of this very rule I think.

Liberty's Edge

bbangerter wrote:


I'm not aware of any rules that state that splitting your movement between walking/swimming/climbing requires a separate move action for each movement mode. Eg, there is no rule I'm aware of that states if I move 10', then try to climb a rope I'm now standing under, that each requires a seperate move action. Splitting your movement out into percentages takes some effort, so I can see some people wanting to simplify it, but the rules don't state a "correct" way to do it.

Actually, the climb skill clearly states that you can combine it with any other form of movement, so switching movement doesn't force you into a different move action.

On the other hand, climbing hasn't an option to move "double your climbing movement as a full-round action". (1)
Similarly crawling allow you to move 5' with a move action, but there isn't a crawl 10' as a full-round action, AFAIK.
So there are at least two situations where you have to take 2 move actions to move in a round.

(1) Swim has it: "Make a Swim check once per round while you are in the water. Success means you may swim at up to half
your speed (as a full-round action) or at a quarter of your speed (as a move action)."

- * - * - * -

Checking the rules, I noticed something funny:

Move Action Attack of Opportunity1
Move Yes

1 Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity.

Taken literally using a move action to move out of a threatened square provoke twice:

Once for the hyphenated 1 "moving out of a threatened square"
and
Once for taking a "Move Action".

Leaving aside "provoking twice", the Move "Move action" provokes by itself, so the OP question is resolved by that.
Does the large creature take a Move "Move action"? If Yes, it provokes.

Liberty's Edge

Do you are arguing against the Move "Move Action" provokes by itself?

Because that is what says the table.

The attack of opportunity part says:

Quote:
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

It doesn't speak of the Move "Move action" at all, it speaks of moving out of a threatened square.

If you don't know the difference between taking a Move "Move action" and moving out of a threatened square, maybe you should reconsider what you wrote to Rocket_Johnson.

You can Move out of a threatened square (and even more than one) in a lot of ways without using the Move "Move action". Greater Bull Rush does that and that movement provokes (once).


I'm not missing the point. The argument is clear. I just think there's a lot of people that are wrong, and it very well could be many of my very old play groups. I still have a hard time accepting that if a monster is not out of a square after a movement that he left the square simply for moving over that square.

The function of this campaign is the broken power level. It's worked for two years of play on the slow track, it's fun, but only if there are no rules arguments (as in any good game).

After over two years of play the only real rules contention (other than a clutch of players trying to chain the diameters for spells like Confusion) is this one argument here.

I have players in two groups that all swear the rules go one way, which is the way I've played it since 3.0 with one of these groups on Tabletop through multiple game masters. And another group of players who have brought this argument up who really benefit from it going another way, which it seems most folks here agree with, and which is contrary to 20+ years of gaming experience as I've never seen this interpretation of the rules before now.

Liberty's Edge

An interesting comparison:

Quote:

Move Yes

Withdraw 4 No

If, during the process of withdrawing, you move out of a threatened square (other than the one you started in), enemies get attacks of opportunity as normal.

I would point out that the game rules say that the Withdraw doesn't provoke while they say that the Move action provokes, but they say that leaving a threatened square white Withdrawing still provokes, so the two things are separated.


The number of attacks is arbitrary and fairly irrelevant to the argument at hand.

I still contend that when the rule asks if a creature left the threatened square and the creature is in fact still in the square, then the criteria for an AoO is unfulfilled.

I think it makes too many assumptions otherwise. If it were intended that an AoO be provoked if 'any part of a creature' leaves a space, the rules would have been worded so. Not vice versa.

I am, however, ruling in favor of my objectively broken party, as I always do. But I am not changing how my three other groups run, as those other 18 or so players do not believe the rules work as argued here.


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Rocket_Johnson wrote:

The number of attacks is arbitrary and fairly irrelevant to the argument at hand.

I still contend that when the rule asks if a creature left the threatened square and the creature is in fact still in the square, then the criteria for an AoO is unfulfilled.

I think it makes too many assumptions otherwise. If it were intended that an AoO be provoked if 'any part of a creature' leaves a space, the rules would have been worded so. Not vice versa.

I am, however, ruling in favor of my objectively broken party, as I always do. But I am not changing how my three other groups run, as those other 18 or so players do not believe the rules work as argued here.

I don't care about your power gamming level - no issue with that.

The rules were written from the perspective of typical medium/small size bipeds. Can a naga not cast finger of death because it does not actually have fingers to point with, even though it is on the default naga spell list? If a unicorn took paladin levels, could it use its lay on hands ability or not?

Any time you are looking at a creature that is not a medium/small biped, you have to make reasonable adjustments to accomodate. For a large (or larger) creature leaving a square, the exposed part of the creature that you could attack has moved away from you - and that presents your opportunity to attack.

Now its possible all of us are wrong, and you are right. But something you may not be aware of, is pretty much everyone who has commented on how this works has been perusing these rules forums for 5+ years, digging into the minutea of every rules aspect. Usually to some level of disagreement. But there isn't a disagreement on this one. Feel free to draw your own conclusion from that.


Diego Rossi wrote:

Do you are arguing against the Move "Move Action" provokes by itself?

Because that is what says the table.

The attack of opportunity part says:

Quote:
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

It doesn't speak of the Move "Move action" at all, it speaks of moving out of a threatened square.

If you don't know the difference between taking a Move "Move action" and moving out of a threatened square, maybe you should reconsider what you wrote to Rocket_Johnson.

You can Move out of a threatened square (and even more than one) in a lot of ways without using the Move "Move action". Greater Bull Rush does that and that movement provokes (once).

Can you clarify:

Do you believe that taking a move action to move provokes an AoO, and that moving out of a threatened square also provokes an AoO as a separate provoking event? Eg, if I take a move action to move, and I move past you, do you get two AoOs?


There is no direct rules quote that will ever truly answer the question… however, a simple logic problem can be used to answer it.

If you only count a large creature as leaving a square when it nolonger occupies said square then you create a situation where a creature can leave either 2 or 3 squares in one tile of movement depending on if it moved diagonally or not. This creates an inconsistency. To prevent the inconsistency it is best to say that it always leaves 4 squares even if 1 or 2 of those squares remains occupied after the movement.

Also @diego, the word “usually” exists in the rules for move actions provoking for a reason. Do you understand the meaning of that word? “Usually” means “not always, but often”. If something usually happens it is a first expectation that it will happen, but understood that it might not. The move action usually provokes. It does not always provoke. It usually provokes. The rules are clear that you only provoke once per round from moving through a specific creatures threatened area. It doesn’t matter if you stopped one move action and the. Started another within their threatened area or not, you only provoke once from your movement through that area for the entire round.

Liberty's Edge

Chell Raighn wrote:

There is no direct rules quote that will ever truly answer the question… however, a simple logic problem can be used to answer it.

If you only count a large creature as leaving a square when it nolonger occupies said square then you create a situation where a creature can leave either 2 or 3 squares in one tile of movement depending on if it moved diagonally or not. This creates an inconsistency. To prevent the inconsistency it is best to say that it always leaves 4 squares even if 1 or 2 of those squares remains occupied after the movement.

Also @diego, the word “usually” exists in the rules for move actions provoking for a reason. Do you understand the meaning of that word? “Usually” means “not always, but often”. If something usually happens it is a first expectation that it will happen, but understood that it might not. The move action usually provokes. It does not always provoke. It usually provokes. The rules are clear that you only provoke once per round from moving through a specific creatures threatened area. It doesn’t matter if you stopped one move action and the. Started another within their threatened area or not, you only provoke once from your movement through that area for the entire round.

CRB wrote:
Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity.

Usually, doesn't mean "when you want to disregard this text, you can", it means, "the general rule says so, there can be specific rules that make exceptions".

CRB wrote:
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

"Moving out of more than one square threatened " RAW isn't an exception to "taking the Move action provokes".

It is an exception to "Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents."

Liberty's Edge

bbangerter wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

Do you are arguing against the Move "Move Action" provokes by itself?

Because that is what says the table.

The attack of opportunity part says:

Quote:
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

It doesn't speak of the Move "Move action" at all, it speaks of moving out of a threatened square.

If you don't know the difference between taking a Move "Move action" and moving out of a threatened square, maybe you should reconsider what you wrote to Rocket_Johnson.

You can Move out of a threatened square (and even more than one) in a lot of ways without using the Move "Move action". Greater Bull Rush does that and that movement provokes (once).

Can you clarify:

Do you believe that taking a move action to move provokes an AoO, and that moving out of a threatened square also provokes an AoO as a separate provoking event? Eg, if I take a move action to move, and I move past you, do you get two AoOs?

RAWmonger opinion notwithstanding, I am arguing what the Rule As Written text of the Core Rulebook says.

It is how I have played it so far? No. As I said, it is something "funny" that I noticed yesterday. After 20 years of 3 edition and Pathfinder. Every person I know has ever treated the Move action as it had NO in the column Provoke. The examples on p. 180 of the CRB work that way too.

The problem is that Table 8-2, an official rule, says that taking the Move action provoke.

Same thing for Table 8-2 of the 3.5 Player's Handbook.
My 3rd Player's Handbook is in a box from my last move, so I can't check it, but it probably says the same thing.
We can assume that it is an error and the table should have said NO, but "it was an error no one has ever noticed and corrected" speak very badly of our hobby.

Do you want something even funnier, for rule consistency?
"Charge No"
So charging doesn't provoke as an action, but moving does ...

I don't think I will change how I play, but no one noticing this thing is a major blunder of the gaming industry.

The problem of "it is an error that has gone unnoticed at least for 2 editions of the game" is that on the same basis we should question all the of the 8-2 table.
"Picking up an object provokes." "Where it says so?" "Under Manipulating an item, it says to look Table 8-2 to see when it provokes, and the table says that it provokes." "Table 8-2 has been proved wrong, so it doesn't provoke."
Wonderful.


Diego Rossi wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

Do you are arguing against the Move "Move Action" provokes by itself?

Because that is what says the table.

The attack of opportunity part says:

Quote:
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

It doesn't speak of the Move "Move action" at all, it speaks of moving out of a threatened square.

If you don't know the difference between taking a Move "Move action" and moving out of a threatened square, maybe you should reconsider what you wrote to Rocket_Johnson.

You can Move out of a threatened square (and even more than one) in a lot of ways without using the Move "Move action". Greater Bull Rush does that and that movement provokes (once).

Can you clarify:

Do you believe that taking a move action to move provokes an AoO, and that moving out of a threatened square also provokes an AoO as a separate provoking event? Eg, if I take a move action to move, and I move past you, do you get two AoOs?

RAWmonger opinion notwithstanding, I am arguing what the Rule As Written text of the Core Rulebook says.

It is how I have played it so far? No. As I said, it is something "funny" that I noticed yesterday. After 20 years of 3 edition and Pathfinder. Every person I know has ever treated the Move action as it had NO in the column Provoke. The examples on p. 180 of the CRB work that way too.

The problem is that Table 8-2, an official rule, says that taking the Move action provoke.

Same thing for Table 8-2 of the 3.5 Player's Handbook.
My 3rd Player's Handbook is in a box from my last move, so I can't check it, but it probably says the same thing.
We can assume that it is an error and the table should have said NO, but "it was an error no one has ever noticed and corrected" speak very badly of our hobby.

Do you want something even funnier, for rule consistency?
"Charge No"
So charging doesn't provoke as...

Using a move action does not provoke. See for example "Direct or redirect an active spell" in that same table as a move action does not provoke. Using a move action to move does provoke. But actual rules text clarifies that as moving out a threatened area provokes (which should be kind of obvious, since if you aren't threatened, no of your actions, moving, casting a spell, etc provoke). But in the table they simply said moving as opposed to the more complete text of "moving out of a threatened square".

Using a move action to move, and moving out a threatened square are not separate provoking instances. The table entry is simply a reiteration that moveing (out of a threatened square) provokes.

Then on top of that we have the specific rule that you cannot provoke more than once a round for movement.

As for charging, there was a thread relatively recently on that very issue. The act of performing a charge in itself does not provoke, but the act of moving as part of the charge might.

Likewise, spring attack in and of itself does not provoke. But the movement used during a spring attack might (from characters other than the target of the attack).

So the table is right, moving provokes. And it really doesn't matter if that is moving as a move action, or moving as part of some other action (barring language excluding an AoO for said movement). None of that supercedes the specific rule about one provocation per round for movement though. If I had means to perform 5 spring attacks in one round, I would still only provoke once per round for the movement part of it.

Liberty's Edge

No, bbangerter. You are disregarding the hyphenated 1:

CRB wrote:
1 Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity.

So either "Yes" is an error that has been perpetuated for at least 2 editions of the game, or we have played wrong for two editions of the game.

If the table did mean to say "yes, moving out of a threatened square provokes", that would have applied to charging too. But charging says No.
Inconsistency.


"There is no direct rules quote that will ever truly answer the question… however, a simple logic problem can be used to answer it.

If you only count a large creature as leaving a square when it nolonger occupies said square then you create a situation where a creature can leave either 2 or 3 squares in one tile of movement depending on if it moved diagonally or not. This creates an inconsistency. To prevent the inconsistency it is best to say that it always leaves 4 squares even if 1 or 2 of those squares remains occupied after the movement.

Also @diego, the word “usually” exists in the rules for move actions provoking for a reason. Do you understand the meaning of that word? “Usually” means “not always, but often”. If something usually happens it is a first expectation that it will happen, but understood that it might not. The move action usually provokes. It does not always provoke. It usually provokes. The rules are clear that you only provoke once per round from moving through a specific creatures threatened area. It doesn’t matter if you stopped one move action and the. Started another within their threatened area or not, you only provoke once from your movement through that area for the entire round."

This statement from @chell makes the most sense to me, aside from the end of that second paragraph. I do agree there is no direct rules quote for my point of view here, but my evidence is simply in the lack of different wording in the rules.

If the rule was worded 'if any part of a creature moves out of a threatened area' i don't think we'd be having this argument as I'd be entirely incorrect that a large creature only leaves two spaces when moving laterally. But that is not the wording we have. The wording, as it stands to me, is simply a true false logic question.

-Did the creature leave the square? - Arguable
-but if asked..
-Is the creature still in the square? -True
-Then (logically) did the creature leave the square (if he's still in it)? - False
Sure, part of it moved on. But that's not the wording we have is it?
-Criteria is thus unmet for an AoO in this true false logic statement.

Does this really create inconsistency more so than if any part of the creature provokes? I dare say no - as long as 3.0 has been available this is how I've seen it ran and ran myself in turn. It works fine as long as the rule itself is consistent.

I am surprised in the amount of folks seeing this rule in another light. But with the lack of a 'direct rules quote that will ever truly answer the question' I'm afraid I'm going to have to stick to my opinion on this one, but just not for the group in question of players who singularly and unanimously oppose the ruling as I'd prefer having fun over pissing people off over a ruling that I can find no evidence for in the end.

Regardless, I do think I'm sticking to my logic statement above for the groups that have been playing in that manner since the dawn of 3.0.

There are indeed five lights here.


Diego Rossi wrote:

No, bbangerter. You are disregarding the hyphenated 1:

CRB wrote:
1 Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity.

So either "Yes" is an error that has been perpetuated for at least 2 editions of the game, or we have played wrong for two editions of the game.

If the table did mean to say "yes, moving out of a threatened square provokes", that would have applied to charging too. But charging says No.
Inconsistency.

So this comes back to:

Do you believe that just taking a movement action provokes, and that moving out of a threatened square provokes again? 2 provocations for the move?

Additionally, do you believe it would be less confusing if the table said No, then the actual rules text talked about provoking for moving out of a threatened square? We'd then be getting questions about whether moving provokes or not.

Ideally they should have just left the "Move" entry off that table.

I'm happy to chalk the whole thing up to bad editing, but the rules intent, to me, is quite clear. Moving through threatened squares provokes, limit once per round. And definately not a provoking action simply for taking a movement action.


Also there was mention and back and forth about that word in the specific rule "Usually".

The rule is worded the same in 3.5. Not sure about 3.0.

I've always thought of this exact point (large creatures only leaving two spaces) as the exact event that pertains to that word Usually used as it is in the rule.

When else would a creature moving through a threatened area not provoke?

I do guess there's the Acrobatics skills use to avoid the AoO, which it could be referring to. But I've never really given the exact intention of that use of the word 'Usually' in the rule a thorough thought until now. There's really no telling what all exclusions they could be referring to in total, but I just always assumed this was one of those cases.


Rocket_Johnson wrote:


If the rule was worded 'if any part of a creature moves out of a threatened area' i don't think we'd be having this argument as I'd be entirely incorrect that a large creature only leaves two spaces when moving laterally. But that is not the wording we have. The wording, as it stands to me, is simply a true false logic question.

Remember the perspective from which the rules are written. Biped medium/small humanoid. Its simply impractical for the rules to detail out every exception for different sizes of creatures - in every place where the rules would have an interaction based on creature size. AoOs are just one place in the rules that could happen.

Look at the intent - movement through a threatened area (that is not a 5' step) provokes. A medium creature can't leave a square, and still be occupying it with a different part of its body. So the rules talk about leaving the threatened square for that medium sized creature, because it can't not do that.

This becomes reminiscent of discussions on these boards about moving into, through, and out of rough terrain. Both with medium sized creatures and with larger creatures. And some get tangled up in the pedantic exact wording used without fully appreciating the context the rules are written in.


Rocket_Johnson wrote:

Also there was mention and back and forth about that word in the specific rule "Usually".

The rule is worded the same in 3.5. Not sure about 3.0.

I've always thought of this exact point (large creatures only leaving two spaces) as the exact event that pertains to that word Usually used as it is in the rule.

When else would a creature moving through a threatened area not provoke?

I do guess there's the Acrobatics skills use to avoid the AoO, which it could be referring to. But I've never really given the exact intention of that use of the word 'Usually' in the rule a thorough thought until now. There's really no telling what all exclusions they could be referring to in total, but I just always assumed this was one of those cases.

I do not see any reason to attribute that usually to a large creature leaving two spaces. But rather that it attributes to specific abilities, which will specifically call out that they do not provoke as a result of movement. Eg, Acrobatics (as you noted), Spring Attack, and others - some combat manuevers, etc.

Spring Attack wrote:


As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack...

So spring attack falls outside of the usually clause, because it calls out that its movement does not provoke (from the target of its attack). Large creatures are not called out as an exception to the usually rule.


"Remember the perspective from which the rules are written. Biped medium/small humanoid. Its simply impractical for the rules to detail out every exception for different sizes of creatures - in every place where the rules would have an interaction based on creature size. AoOs are just one place in the rules that could happen."

Yes, it'd be very impractical to go through such a list.

Yet I'm simply positing that this written rule is simply intended to be as read without adding more assumptions, and that it's not out of accident or ease of being read or ease of comprehension that the rule refers to the creature itself and not every square the creature occupies, but that it was worded as is on purpose and designed for creatures of larger sizes, not omitting them.

Liberty's Edge

Rocket_Johnson wrote:
Also @diego, the word “usually” exists in the rules for move actions provoking for a reason. Do you understand the meaning of that word? “Usually” means “not always, but often”.

As already said "usually" in the rules means "there are exceptions". But the exceptions aren't whimsy, they are explicitly stated in the relevant rules.

Liberty's Edge

bbangerter wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

No, bbangerter. You are disregarding the hyphenated 1:

CRB wrote:
1 Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity.

So either "Yes" is an error that has been perpetuated for at least 2 editions of the game, or we have played wrong for two editions of the game.

If the table did mean to say "yes, moving out of a threatened square provokes", that would have applied to charging too. But charging says No.
Inconsistency.

So this comes back to:

Do you believe that just taking a movement action provokes, and that moving out of a threatened square provokes again? 2 provocations for the move?

Additionally, do you believe it would be less confusing if the table said No, then the actual rules text talked about provoking for moving out of a threatened square? We'd then be getting questions about whether moving provokes or not.

Ideally they should have just left the "Move" entry off that table.

I'm happy to chalk the whole thing up to bad editing, but the rules intent, to me, is quite clear. Moving through threatened squares provokes, limit once per round. And definately not a provoking action simply for taking a movement action.

They couldn't have left Move out of the table, as it is a move action.

RAI? I agree that it should have been No, like it is for the Charge (that still provokes every time the charging character leaves a square).

But it is RAI.

Bad editing for 2 editions of the game as a minimum: 3.5 and Pathfinder.

At this point it is a circular argument:

RAI is -> but RAW say -> but RAI clearly is -> RAW still say ...

Unless someone can find the guy or guys that wrote that table and ask why it says Yes, I doubt anything can be added.
I suppose we will all continue using RAI.


If a creature(even large and bigger) moves(not talking about a 5 foot step) out of a threatened area it provokes.

The game has been understood to be this way by just about everyone, including the devs.

They've killed monsters this way. I'm too lazy to find the url, but their gaming exploits do exist online.

You(OP) can choose to let them not provoke, but those are the rules.

You can also go to other forums and ask them what they think. 99% of them will say the creature provokes.

<Goes back into hiding>


Diego Rossi wrote:


RAI? I agree that it should have been No, like it is for the Charge (that still provokes every time the charging character leaves a square).

That wouldn't have really solved anything. The thread on charging I mentioned above, the OP believed movement made as part of charging did not provoke because the table said that charge does not provoke. If "move" in the table also said no, there would be some who argued that movement does not provoke because of the table.

Liberty's Edge

bbangerter wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


RAI? I agree that it should have been No, like it is for the Charge (that still provokes every time the charging character leaves a square).
That wouldn't have really solved anything. The thread on charging I mentioned above, the OP believed movement made as part of charging did not provoke because the table said that charge does not provoke. If "move" in the table also said no, there would be some who argued that movement does not provoke because of the table.

I recall the thread, but to say that one needs to totally disregard the hyphenated 1 (exactly what the playerS of the guy that started the thread do):

"1 Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity."

Having an example that says the opposite of the "Attack of Opportunity" clarifies the RAI, but it would have been better to have matching RAW.


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Diego Rossi wrote:


They couldn't have left Move out of the table, as it is a move action.

RAI? I agree that it should have been No, like it is for the Charge (that still provokes every time the charging character leaves a square).

But it is RAI.

Bad editing for 2 editions of the game as a minimum: 3.5 and Pathfinder.

At this point it is a circular argument:

RAI is -> but RAW say -> but RAI clearly is -> RAW still say ...

Unless someone can find the guy or guys that wrote that table and ask why it says Yes, I doubt anything can be added.
I suppose we will all continue using RAI.

Or we could you know, read the tables as what they actually are, quick reference resources, and not try to infer additional rules from them. Each item in the table has its own rules that better outlines when it does and does not provoke if it provokes. In the case of move, the rules spell out in no uncertain language that you provoke when leaving a threatened space. The act of performing a move action to move itself does not provoke it is the movement out of a threatened space that provokes. In general to specific rules hierarchy you can look at it as the inferred rule from the table is a general rule that move actions to move provoke, then the specific rule for movement is that you only provoke from moving out of a threatened space. This results in the action type itself not provoking (which there are no written rules that satiate it does, only your inferred rule from the quick reference table), and your movement provoking only when you leave a threatened square. The provoke from the movement rules satisfies the quick reference “yes” on the table.

This then gets followed up by the general rules for AoO that you can only provoke once per incident and each creature only gets one AoO per round. Combat Reflexes acts as a specific rule to trump this general rule giving you an additional number of AoOs equal to your Dex mod (note: it does say ADDITIONAL, meaning you now have 1+Dex mod), and adds an additional specific rule that movement can only provoke once per round per creature. This applies a new specific rule to the hierarchy of both AoOs in general and AoOs from movement.

The way you should be reading the table is as a reference guide. If it says it provokes, you should then navigate to the specific rules for that item on the table and follow the rules outlined there. The table itself does NOT create rules, it merely references them in a simplified format. Numerous items on the table should have actually had an entry of “maybe” or “see text” rather than “yes”… there are even some that the table says “no” on that their specific rules say otherwise.

Liberty's Edge

No, Chell. you are confusing the rules about moving out of a threatened square with the rules about moving.

And the table is part of the rules, not a quick reference.

CRB wrote:

Move Action: A move action allows you to move up to your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table 8–2 for other move actions. You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.

....

Move
The simplest move action is moving your speed. If you take this kind of move action during your turn, you can’t also take a 5-foot step.
Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this category, including climbing (up to one quarter of your speed) and swimming (up to one-quarter of your speed).
Accelerated Climbing: You can climb at half your speed as a move action by accepting a –5 penalty on your Climb check.
Crawling: You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl. A crawling character is considered prone and must take a move action to stand up, provoking an attack of opportunity.

That are the rules about taking the b]Move[/b] Move Action besides what is written in Table 8-2.

If you don't treat table 8-2 as a rule, you don't have a source that says that using ranged attack provokes or that using the Aid Another action provokes if you are helping in performing an action that provokes to that lighting a torch provokes. Probably there are several other cases where only Table 8-2 is the only source that say that an action provokes.
So Table 8-2 is a needed source, not a reference to other pieces of the rules.

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Removed as series of personally harassing posts. Calling someone stupid or alleging mental deficiencies is not appropriate.

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