Disclaimer: This build needs Free Archetype. It combines too many different things to "work" without that. It's also a "Let's have some fun!" build. Don't expect max DPR. I think the build is actually rather weak - even for an alchemist!
Also, our GM allows us to take 2 Archetypes at the same time. We only need to pay one off if we want a third archetype. With regular free archetype, you'll ned to shift a few feats around and probably come online a bit later.
Idea: A combination of Bomber and Toxicologist, attacks from medium range but can also go into melee in a pinch.
Acestry: Doesn't matter much as long as you get 18 Int and 16 Dex. I'm considering Hobgoblin for Alchemical Scholar and Recognize Ambush. Extra free Formulas are always nice and for a bomb user it's obviously good to draw a weapon on rolling initiative.
Research Field: I went with Toxicologist. You can probably make do with Bomber + Potent Poisoner if you want to focus more on the Boom side of things. But I feel it's easier to make lower level Bombs work than lower level poisons. Bombs only need an attack bonus from Alchemist Goggles or Quicksiler Mutagen.
Class feats || Free Archetype feats:
01: Alchemical Familiar (Valet, Extra Reagents)
02: Rogue Dedication || Dual-Weapon Warrior Dedication
04: Sneak Attacker || Dual Thrower
06: Sticky Poison || Quickdraw
08: Pinpoint Poisoner || Poison Weapon
10: Perpetual Breadth (Bottled Lightning) || Flensing Slice
12: Invincible Mutagen || Gang Up
14: Extend Elixir || Dual Onslaught
16: Eternal Elixir || Opportune Backstab
18: Miracle Worker || Skirmish Strike
20: Perfect Mutagen || Inspired Stratagem
Equipment: Main weapon is a Returning Throwing Knife. You'll also carry lots of poisoned regular Throwing Knives and Bombs at all times. Bulk could be a real issue. Might want to invest in Hefty Hauler early. And you'll need Doubling Rings if you want to mix it up in Melee occasionally. Also get Gloves of Storing for a free action "draw a bomb" once per fight. A Backfire Mantle will protect you from yourself when you throw bombs in melee.
Set up: You use Extend Elixir to make your Mutagen last a long time. Quicksilver whenever you feel relatively save, Juggernaut when you feel like you'll need to go into melee like when fighting in close quarters. Eternal Elixir can be whatever you want. Since the build is squishy beyond believe, I'd probably go with Mistform. Keep all of your Throwing Knives poisoned with Perpetual Infusion. Keep a few handy that are laced with your current top level poison. Also poison your allies' weapons between fights.
Tactics: Keep your main Throwing Knife in hand at all times if possible. Use Recognize Ambush to draw an appropriate response once you see what you're facing, either a Bomb or a poisoned Throwing Knife. You can now use Double Slice (and potentially Flensing Slice) if an enemy is close. Whenever you start a turn with only your main Knife in hand, you have lots of options. Some possible turns:
- Command your Valet to give you an appropriate Elixir -> Drink it -> Strike with main knife -> get a second weapon from Valet to use on the next turn.
- (Re-)Poison your main knife -> throw it at an enemy -> use Quick Draw to follow up with anther knife or bomb. Especially good to spread poison or persitent damage across multiple enemies.
- Drop your main knife -> use your Valet (or Doule Brew) to get two Bombs -> Double Slice Bombs away. Probably your Nova option against big enemies that are hard/impossible to poison.
- Not sure if that actually works but a Double Slice with Acid Flask + Blight Bomb followed by Flensing Slice could give a foe three persistent damage effects in one turn.
Weaknesses:
- It's an Alchemist who tries to deal damage.
- Seriously, the damage without poisons or bombs is atrocious. Sneak attack might help a little bit but don't expect to do much when you run out of resources.
- You're using A LOT of manipulate actions and ranged attacks while being relatively close the the enemies or even in melee. You WILL die to strong opponents with Attack of Opportunity. Quicksliver mutagen doesn't help either.
Strength:
- Chances are, once or twice during a whole campaign all your attack rolls will succeed and the enemy will fail their saves. You will really ruin your GM's day and it will be glorious!
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... And tell me how bad it is.
Heh. At least you recognize that this will be the likely result of posting a build online.
I'll take a look at it in a bit. I need to run errands IRL.
1) Not a huge fan of "poison weapon", especially if you are a toxicologist.
Why not? I'm not using it for the 1d4 poison, which is a waste of an action. But the feat does allow me to draw a poison and apply it in a single action. I'm not sure how often I'll actually use it, even though it was - ironically - the one feat that I wanted and that eventually led to this build. (It was aweird journey.) I might switch it out for somthing like Strong Arm if I feel I don't use it enough.
2) By lvl 7 you are going to get perpetual poisons ( your dm is ok with making them last indefinitely and not just the round they are created? ). You are also going to be able to get 4+7+1 alchemical reagents. Assuming 4 mistform elixirs and 4 quicksilver ( 4 infused batch ), you'll remain with 8x3= 24 high level poisons. Aren't they enough to properly deal with enemies of your level?
I stronlgy believe my GM will let perpetual poisons last the rest of the day after they've been applied. I'll double check, but I seriously doubt he'd tell me otherwise.
24 poisons is plenty. But if I do that I don't have a single Bomb I can draw, no utility or life elixirs and no spare batches to use quick alchemy with.
Also, a normal lvl 7 character is going to deal 2d8 ( average weapon damage ) +6 damage with a single attack. You, if you consider to infuse your daggers with infused poisons, are going to deal: 1d4+0 + poison ( Giant Centipeded venom, which is 1d6 damage on a failure )
Isn't it a little low?
I think that with dual thrower ( your routine will be 2 actions for it and 1 to command your "valet" to pass you daggers is it right? ) you are going to hit quite a lot, but not quite convinced about your damage.
My main hand knife is fully upgraded and returning. So that'll deal 2d4 at least. I figured it's unlikely to hit a MAP -5 attack as an Alchemist, so the plan is basically use the main hand to deal actual damage (even though it's still not very much) and the offhand to deliver poison since Double Slice allows me to throw both weapons without MAP.
The build is also a swich hitter and can go into melee. When used in melee, all my atacks are boosted since I wear Doubling Rings. So by level 7, my melee damage with both hands will be at least 2d4 and I can add 1d6 sneak attack against flat-footed enemies. And poison on top of that. And I can always throw a bomb in there if I want/need. I'd probably drop the offhand knife once its poison is spend and draw a new fresh (i.e. poisoned) one for the next Double Slice.
Also, you are going to be a little stationary due to the action economy.
There will absolutely be turns when Double Slice is not viable. That's why I have alternatives like Poison Weapon, Quick Draw and Skirmish Strike.
Have you considered magic or magical crafting to get haste by any means? the extra stride would be excellet for your build.
Given your int, you could also look for the innovator dedication, getting gadgets for free everyday ( there's one which gives you haste with a single interact action ).
I'll most likely get at least Trick Magic Item, so I can pre-buff with Longstrider an maybe Haste given the opportunity. I do assume most groups will have someone with haste, however, so I'll probably be able to get it semi-reliably, at least at high levels. I could also switch Miracle Worker for Improbably Elixirs. I think I could make Haste Potions into Elxirs that way.
Thanks for the feedback!
Well, I agree with you that it's not an optimized Alchemist build.
I discourage you to poison your weapons during combat, it's not worth the action cost. Poison main advantage is that you can apply it beforehand. Also, you'll have way more success with bombs than with your daggers. Poisoning enemies yourself is not very efficient, it can be used as extra damage to a Strength-based build. But on a Dexterity-based build, you'll quickly realize that it doesn't help much, especially if you use perpetual poisons, that are really bad before level 17.
Actually, I really think you should consider going Strength-based. It looks like you want to fight through poison, and as such the best is to grab 2 good weapons with high strength for (quite) optimal damage. The poison compensates the lack of martial abilities.
I don't think you can Double Slice with a bomb. Double Slice needs melee weapons in both hands. Bombs are thrown weapons like javelins. Not melee weapons with the thrown trait like the throwing knives.
I wouldn't think you need Trick Magic Item just to use Wand of Longstrider. You already have access to Cheetah's Elixir. Maybe for other spellcasting items though. But part of the idea of having so many alchemical items is that they can often give the same utility benefits as spells do.
Personally I have always hated the Quicksilver Mutagen. I have few enough HP as it is. But Alchemist starts with more HP, so maybe after using the Mutagen you will only be down to my level of HP. You can probably make that work well enough as long as you stay out of melee range. Also remember that you don't get those HP back when the Mutagen ends either. It has to be healed up through other means.
I'm sure Farien has some pointers on the use of the alchemical familiar, but we were adventuring today and I didn't have room to give him Speech.
Mmrrow
Yeah, I know you hate not being able to talk. I'll give you speech again tomorrow.
Dual thrower in the archetype allows for thrown weapons with double slice
Yeah, that would work with the bomb in one hand and the throwing knife in the other.
I just saw this
Command your Valet to give you a bomb/knife -> Double Slice -> have your Valet give you another bomb/knife to set up Double Slice + Flensing next turn.
and was a bit concerned.
MmrrowAgreed
Unfortunately the emojis in the first post didn't come through. I'm guessing that the forum software hates posts that are nothing but emoji. They showed up in the preview just fine.
@SuperBidi: Yes, Bombs will most likely be more efficient but that makes them boring. I would probably limit the amount of bombs I prepare each day if I ever play ths build to basically force me to use poisoned knives more often than not.
The build isn't optimized in any sense of the word. It's a weird mix of melee and mid-ranged combat. It's more about reliably having the right (theoretical) answer for any situation than about having those answers actually work reliably. It feels extremely flexible in its item and action usage and I'd be interested in seeing the practical results.
Going Strength Based kinda kills any chance of hitting with a Bomb. It's also hard to keep up Str, Int and all three defensive stats. Heavy Armor would be an option, but that promotes having even less Dex.
An earlier Toxicologist idea I had was using a bastard sword with Poison Weapon and Dual-Handed Assault. But even with free archetype it's nearly impossible to get Dual-Handed Assault, Poison Weapon AND Bastard Sword proficiency in a timely fashion.
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@aobst128: Oh, you mean giving the familiar Poison Reservoire and Independant for an once per fight free re-poisoning? Hadn't thought about that but I like that idea. I'll keep that in mind in case I ever want to play a "serious" Toxicologist.
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@HumbleGamer: Archer is an obvious and powerful choice for an archetype, both for Bombers and for Toxicologists. Pre-poisoning a bunch of arrows and always shooting one fitting the enemy/situation is great. But I kinda want/need this character to at least have some theoretical melee ability.
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@breithauptclan (and various aliases): The original plan was actually going primarily Juggernaut instead of Quicksilver. I figured I had attack bonus for bombs covered but forgot that I I still need to hit with those thrown knifes. Maybe I'll stick with Juggernaut and use the primary knife with bombs for ranged Double Slice and only switch to double knives for melee. Then the doubling rings take care of the attack bonus problem (and at least lessen the damage problem).
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@all: I should probably have posted the build's goal a bit earlier. I wanted a character who uses poison in melee combat. It later drifted more to a semi-ranged character, but that was not the original intent.
Toxicologist is pretty much the only way to get Poison DCs to a usable level reliably. Only real alternative would be another Alchemist with Potent Poisoner. Not sure how well that makes DCs scale, though. But as we all know, poisons are very unreliable on the best of days so I wanted the ability to pull out some bombs if need be. Like when facing poison immune enemies or enemies with elemental weaknesses.
That pretty much means I need Dex and getting Dex and Strength up is basically impossible. Could maybe be done if you start at level 10 so you can ge both to 18. Any level before that will seriously hurt your already poor performance.
The original plan was actually going primarily Juggernaut instead of Quicksilver. I figured I had attack bonus for bombs covered but forgot that I I still need to hit with those thrown knifes. Maybe I'll stick with Juggernaut and use the primary knife with bombs for ranged Double Slice and only switch to double knives for melee. Then the doubling rings take care of the attack bonus problem (and at least lessen the damage problem).
Well, Witch is a different matter entirely than Alchemist is. For myself, I generally try to stay at range. I have to layer some magical protections in place in preparation to taking a turn attracting ire so that some allies can recover a bit.
For you, I am just thinking that trying to start in ranged mode and using Quicksilver Mutagen will at least partially force you to stay in ranged mode. You may not want to try and move in to melee combat with HP lowered by the Mutagen in addition to any combat damage that you have also taken. Staying in ranged mode you really won't be in a worse position than I am.
I should probably have posted the build's goal a bit earlier. I wanted a character who uses poison in melee combat. It later drifted more to a semi-ranged character, but that was not the original intent.
Toxicologist is pretty much the only way to get Poison DCs to a usable level reliably. Only real alternative would be another Alchemist with Potent Poisoner. Not sure how well that makes DCs scale, though. But as we all know, poisons are very unreliable on the best of days so I wanted the ability to pull out some bombs if need be. Like when facing poison immune enemies or enemies with elemental weaknesses.
That pretty much means I need Dex and getting Dex and Strength up is basically impossible. Could maybe be done if you start at level 10 so you can ge both to 18. Any level before that will seriously hurt your already poor performance.
Yes, I am very familiar with the problems of having to choose which abilities to focus on. My Charisma has suffered entirely, and my Strength/Wisdom is not much better.
Having to give up some of your Strength and rely on finesse weapons seems like a reasonable approach.
Also remember that some of the benefits of poison are the conditions that it can add - not just the damage.
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@SuperBidi: Yes, Bombs will most likely be more efficient but that makes them boring. I would probably limit the amount of bombs I prepare each day if I ever play ths build to basically force me to use poisoned knives more often than not.
The build isn't optimized in any sense of the word. It's a weird mix of melee and mid-ranged combat. It's more about reliably having the right (theoretical) answer for any situation than about having those answers actually work reliably. It feels extremely flexible in its item and action usage and I'd be interested in seeing the practical results.
Well, you know what you have. I just encourage you to tell your GM that your character will be quite inefficient combat-wise. Having a loose canon in a group greatly increases the challenge of combats in PF2.
As a side note, if you want to increase the versatility of your build, I strongly encourage you to grab Ageless Patience. Combined with Mutagens, it makes a skill monkey out of the Alchemist.
Mmrrow
Mmrrow indeed. That's embarrassing.
Well, now that I can talk again...
I'm not usually a fan of Valet. But you did manage to hit on the one actually useful purpose for it - being handed consumables or thrown weapons. The reason being that you only have two hands. So unless you are emptying those hands of the items that you are being handed, you will shortly run out of hands faster than your familiar will run out of actions to hand you things.
It is also a bit strange to me that Valet does not require Manual Dexterity, but Toolbearer does. With Toolbearer, all I am doing is wearing the tools. You still have to draw and use them. But that is the way the contract works for Valet, so that is how it works.
One more thing to note about Valet though is that I can't valet items off of the ground. Only the ones you are still wearing openly. So if you drop your main throwing knife, you will have to pick it up yourself.
Speaking of which, if you drop your knife and move, then it depends on the Powers that Be and the details of your familiar's contract whether the familiar can go and pick it up and bring it back to you. It may be able to be done with no abilities, but that is not likely. It is more likely that the familiar would need Manual Dexterity to do so. Maybe Valet would be allowed to serve that purpose of allowing the familiar to pick up and carry items instead.
Another thing to point out is that some of your other feats will be reducing the need and usefulness of Valet. I do agree that Poison Weapon is a fantastic combination with a poison using Alchemist. More so for other Research fields, but even Toxicologist gets some use out of being able to both draw the poison and apply it to the weapon as a single action. Quick Draw is a bit of a strange case. Normally it would completely negate the purpose of Valet in handing over weapons. But with Double Slice (and other types of special attacks) it doesn't work so well - you have to do a regular Strike action with the weapon, not part of a Double Slice attack.
I've had some success with symbols, but anything with a face pretty much never works.
✅☑✔❌❎⚪⚫⬛⬜◼◻◾◽▪️▫️️️️️️
Edit: Only about half the symbols I entered showed up.
Ok, I'm back. I've changed the build up quite a bit, including some of your great feedback and some ideas of my own. The result is more melee-focused and packs much more of a punch when the poison fails. I'm still trying to have at least a small chance of hitting with a bomb or thrown weapon but that had to come at the price of some defensive ability scores. Who needs Will saves anyway, am I right?
Remember that my GM allows us to have up to 2 Archetypes at the same time and we only need to pay one off if we want a third one.
Ancestry: Android, Duskwalker
Ancestry Feats don't matter that much. I went with Ghost Hunter, Advanced Targeting System, Spirit Strikes, Repair Module and Yamaraj's Grandeur.
Ability Scores
Level 1: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8
Level 20: Str 20, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 22, Wis 16, Cha 10
Apex Item will most likely be +Strength.
Research Field: Toxicologist. Now more then ever.
Class Feats || Free Archetype Feats
01: Alchemical Familiar (Independent, Poison Reservoir)
02: Fighter Dedication || Duelist Dedication
04: Opportunist || Double Slice
06: Sticky Poison || Mauler Dedication
08: Pinpoint Poisoner || Dual-Handed Assault
10: Perpetual Breadth (Bomber) || Knockdown
12: Invincible Mutagen || Improved Knockdown (via Mauler)
14: Extend Elixir || Diverse Weapon Expert
16: Eternal Elixir || Fighter Resiliency
18: Improbably Elixirs || Incredible Aim
20: Perfect Mutagen || Agile Grace
It annoys me to no end that Fighter doesn't get Quick Draw. I had to get it via Duelist. I got Mauler at level 6 to get my weapon proficiency to expert at lvel 7. If I find better use for the feat slot, I might retrain it once I get Diverse Weapon Expert. The latter also allows me to upgrade my secondary weapons from d4 throwing knives to d6 hatchets. Not a huge improvement, but every bit helps. Fighter Resiliency give me +27 HP. Seems resonable.
Equipment: Main Weapon is a poisoned Bastard Sword, wielded with one hand. Secondary weapons are lots of poisoned Throwing Knives/Harchets and the occasional Bomb. Glove of Storing holds a top level Poison so I can re-poison my Bastard Sword as a single action once per fight. Backfire Mantle makes sure my bombs don't backfire if thrown at close range. Doubling Rings make my Knives/Hatchets more effective in melee.
Tactics: Prebuff with Juggernaut and Eternal Mistform. Also various other elixirs you might want to add like Cheetah, Bravo's Brew and whatever else you want/like.
The ideal first turn would be Stride into melee, Dual-Handed Assault with the poisoned Bastard Sword, Quick Draw a poisoned Knife/Hatchet. If the poison on the secondary weapon is used, drop the secondary weapon and repeat Dual-Handed -> Quick Draw on your next turn to keep the poison coming. Yes, I know Quick Draw provokes AoO. I'll just have to face tank that. If the poison on the secondary weapon is not used (because I miss or Sticky Poison triggers) go for Double Slice on the second turn. Repeat rotation until either you or the target is dead.
At level 12+ I can also do Improved Knockdown followed by Quick Draw. Less damage but if the Knockdown hits, the target is flat-footed against the second attack which makes it easier to land and triggers Pinpoint Poisoner. And standing will provoke that sweet AoO. I'll usually want to get flat-footed from flanking, but Improved Knockdown seems like a good fallback option. Also provides some debuffing if needed.
I can Re-Poison my Bastard Sword twice very quickly. My famliar does it once for free. And the Glove can get me a poison into my hand as a free action, so I only need one action to apply it (Toxicologist ability). I think that will probably be enough for most fights. Sticky Poison helps as well.
My Dex isn't amazing, but I hope I can occasionally hit with a bomb. It's definitely more of an "exploit weakness" option and for those opportunities I have a 1/day True Strike and at high levels Incredible Aim. Might be worth the extra action if a bomb can trigger weakness multiple times via persistent damage.
And I can also throw one of my secondary weapons if I ever feel the need. I don't think that'll come up too often, though.
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I think that's a serious improvement in overall effectiveness while still relying on poisons a lot and still being able to throw a bomb or two if the situation calls for it.
Thought?
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My only doubts are ( didn't do any math so It's just a consideration of mine ) about the damage comparison between double slice vs two-handed assault + quickdraw.
I mean, would using double slice all the time with a spiked guantlet ( it could be poisoned from the start ) as well as your bastard sword ( which would be poisoned 2 more times during the fight ) be better than making 2 separate attacks ( two-handed assault as first strike + quick drawn poisoned weapon second strike )?
With pretty much any other weapon, Double Slice would likely come out on top. But since Dual-Handed Assault turns the Bastard Sword effectively into a d14 weapon, Dual-Handed + Quick Draw deals more damage. As usual in PF2, the difference isn't huge by any means. But it's there and having strong single action attack seems like a good idea anyway since pulling off Double Slice is often not too easy in practice.
Double Slice has the advantage of being more precise so it's still good for more reliable poison delivery.
Your build is pretty solid. I wonder how much of Gortle's basic build discussion influenced you.
Just one thing: Drop bombs entirely. At level 10, dealing 1d6 of damage is laughable. You'll be way more efficient with your Bastard Sword.
You'll be able to reduce Dexterity to increase Constitution, which will be way more useful at low level.
Your build is pretty solid. I wonder how much of Gortle's basic build discussion influenced you.
No clue. I read a whole lot of things about Alchemists in the last week, including the basic build discussion. There might be some influence, but I honestly couldn't tell at this point.
Just one thing: Drop bombs entirely. At level 10, dealing 1d6 of damage is laughable. You'll be way more efficient with your Bastard Sword.
You'll be able to reduce Dexterity to increase Constitution, which will be way more useful at low level.
Why would I deal only 1d6 damage with bombs at level 10? I could see dropping Perpetual Breadth for something else, but my infused bombs will easily deal 2d6 damage at that level (plus splash and aditional effects) and scale to 3d6 the very next level.
Not great by any means but good enough for hitting weaknesses and as a ranged option. Low dex would also lower my reflex save and I plan on using some dex-skills.
Why would I deal only 1d6 damage with bombs at level 10? I could see dropping Perpetual Breadth for something else, but my infused bombs will easily deal 2d6 damage at that level (plus splash and aditional effects) and scale to 3d6 the very next level.
Not great by any means but good enough for hitting weaknesses and as a ranged option. Low dex would also lower my reflex save and I plan on using some dex-skills.
I was speaking of your Perpetual Bombs, which are so bad there's no way you can find any use out of them.
If Bombs were so great against weaknesses that one should switch to them, then it will be part of any gameplay advice for Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Magus and other classes able to use martial weapons. It isn't, and there's a reason to that: Exploiting a Weakness is important if you are a Bomber, but if you don't have all the Bomber feats, then it doesn't make Bombs strong enough to force a switch. You should only switch to Bombs against Swarms because of the Weakness + physical Resistance combo or enemies with Regeneration.So I encourage you not to think too much about Bombs. If you have a few reagents left at high level, you can use Quick Alchemy to get the exact bomb you need, otherwise just leave it be.
For ranged option, I though you would use thrown weapons?
About Dexterity vs Constitution, you do as you want. Mutagenist being quite squishy, I tend to value Constitution more than Dexterity, but overall it's a wash.
I was speaking of your Perpetual Bombs, which are so bad there's no way you can find any use out of them.
That's fair. It's probably also hard to use Perpetual Breadth for hitting weaknesses since you only get a single perpetual bomb. Holding a few spare reagents to Quick Alchemy the correct bomb for the situation is the way to go.
If Bombs were so great against weaknesses that one should switch to them, then it will be part of any gameplay advice for Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Magus and other classes able to use martial weapons. It isn't, and there's a reason to that: Exploiting a Weakness is important if you are a Bomber, but if you don't have all the Bomber feats, then it doesn't make Bombs strong enough to force a switch. You should only switch to Bombs against Swarms because of the Weakness + physical Resistance combo or enemies with Regeneration.
All those other classes have plenty of abilties that improve their damage. Even hitting a weakness, a barbarian will rarely deal more damage with a bomb than with physical Strikes. The same is not true for the alchemist. The whole drawing and throwing weapons also has some awkward action econoy issues for most classes. I don't think it's a fair comparison. You wouldn't tell a cast to stop using Electric Arc just because it's not optimal on a fighter.
For ranged option, I though you would use thrown weapons?
Yeah, but those need Dex as well, no...?
Bombs at least bring their own item bonus to attack. Since the new version is mostly melee and uses Strength to attack, I won't be using Quicksilver (even I am not THAT reckless). So my throwing knives won't have much of an item bonus to attack and using them at range is a last resort fallback.
How about I get Calculated Splash instead of Perpetual Breadth at level 10? Puts my bombs at 2d6+5 (plus persistent or some debuff for most bombs), scaling to 3d6+5 the very next level. My Dex and Strength will also both be at +4 at that level so a bomb will literally have the same attack bonus as my bastard sword.
But then again, Calculated Splash is only +2 splash damage at level 11+. Not too impressive for a class feat if I'm not using bombs frequently. And I can't really fit in Expanded Splash anywhere.
Hm... I might get Combine Elixirs at level 10. I can probably spare the extra Reagents by then. Would allow some interesting combinations. And if I'm not mistaken, I should be able to combine Mistform and a Potion of Quickness (from Improbable Elixirs) and drink it as an Eternal Elixir for permanent concealment and permanent Haste.
All those other classes have plenty of abilties that improve their damage. Even hitting a weakness, a barbarian will rarely deal more damage with a bomb than with physical Strikes. The same is not true for the alchemist. The whole drawing and throwing weapons also has some awkward action econoy issues for most classes. I don't think it's a fair comparison. You wouldn't tell a cast to stop using Electric Arc just because it's not optimal on a fighter.
Ranger benefits from its Edge on Bombs, and can take Quick Draw, making the Ranger an ideal candidate to switch to bombs when it needs to.
And your Alchemist loses both his higher Strength bonus and the benefit of poison. So, it's not exactly like a Fighter using Electric Arc.For ranged option, I though you would use thrown weapons?Yeah, but those need Dex as well, no...?
As a Strength-based character, you should rarely switch to ranged weapons outside situations where you don't have the choice. And at level 10, Potions of Flying becomes quite easily available. So, yes, having a ranged option is important, but not that important that you should pay feats on it. I'd personally just buy a Longbow, and rune it a bit for it to be a secondary weapon. Also, Bombs have a range issue, so if you need to switch to ranged combat chances are high that enemies will be over 30ft. of range making Longbow quite efficient and Bombs really not that efficient.
And if you want a switch-hitting character, you should be able to start with 16 Dex and Str on an Android. Grabbing Calculated and Expanded Splash should be enough to make a decent bomber out of your Poisoner (as you already have Quick Draw).It's always a matter of choice. It's just that I'd not pay feats on bombs if I'm not a switch-hitter.
I get where you're coming from, I just think I see a different weight/priority in the various parts of the build.
Yes, I lose my strength bonus when throwing bombs, but it's only 1-2 damage more then the bonus damage I get from Splash at all levels. The bomb can potentially hit multiple enemies and inflict some debuffs or persistent damage. And still deal some (very minor) damage on a miss.
Losing poison is an issue, but there's enough creatures out there which are completely immune to poison. I want to have more options than just hitting them. It might not be better in all cases, but at least it's more interesting.
Starting with Str and Dex at 16 would mean lower Int. Since the Toxicologist uses his Class DC a lot, lowering Int is a bad idea. The only alternative would be dumping Wis and Con which is even worse.
But anyway, as I said I'll drop any feat investment in Bombs. I could maaaaaaaybe be swayed to get Sticky Bomb at some point if the campaign turns out to have plenty of enemies with weaknesses. But I'll most likely get Combine Elixir at level 10.
Thanks for your input :)
If you want poison on bombs, there are always the bombs that deal piercing damage like Crystal Shards.
Losing poison is an issue, but there's enough creatures out there which are completely immune to poison. I want to have more options than just hitting them. It might not be better in all cases, but at least it's more interesting.
Right, it's a valid point. Against Undeads, Ghost Charges are awesome in so many ways, you should have a few available in case of. Against Constructs, on the other hand, bombs can meet their demise because of Hardness. As bombs deal lots of small instances of damage, Hardness blocks nearly everything, and you end up splashing your allies for more than you deal to the enemy (been there, done nothing but waiting for the end of the fight). Against Constructs, I think you should grab an Adamatine weapon (at higher level), that's the only thing that really works against all of them.
Losing poison is an issue, but there's enough creatures out there which are completely immune to poison. I want to have more options than just hitting them. It might not be better in all cases, but at least it's more interesting.Right, it's a valid point. Against Undeads, Ghost Charges are awesome in so many ways, you should have a few available in case of. Against Constructs, on the other hand, bombs can meet their demise because of Hardness. As bombs deal lots of small instances of damage, Hardness blocks nearly everything, and you end up splashing your allies for more than you deal to the enemy (been there, done nothing but waiting for the end of the fight). Against Constructs, I think you should grab an Adamatine weapon (at higher level), that's the only thing that really works against all of them.
Things like "Ghost charges are super-useful against undead" is pretty much exactly what keeping reagents back for quick alchemy is for. If you run into ghosts, you whip up an anti-ghost bomb. If you don't, you'll probably have reason to whip up something else.
Things like "Ghost charges are super-useful against undead" is pretty much exactly what keeping reagents back for quick alchemy is for. If you run into ghosts, you whip up an anti-ghost bomb. If you don't, you'll probably have reason to whip up something else.
Like HumbleGamer, I prefer to have a few Ghost Charges on me rather than relying on Quick Alchemy.
Quick Alchemy is really expensive, I haven't been able to keep a reagent for it before level 5, and I play in PFS where adventuring days are short. Before 2-digit levels, there's nothing wrong in not using Quick Alchemy at all, as long as you have a bunch of alchemical items for uncommon situations like Undead fights.