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Well after I asked for help on the forums making a good Swashbuckler I did a deep dive into them and really fell down a rabbit hole. I've been hard at work for the last couple of weeks really doing my research and writing a Swashbuckler's guide. I'm releasing the alpha release here, I know I'm not done, but I need to take a break and put something out there or I'm going to go crazy.
I'd appreciate some constructive criticism. I'm sure I messed up some rules somewhere or made some sort of mistake, but I'd love to really show this class the love I feel it hasn't gotten in Pathfinder 2 yet.
Let me know what you think!
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Pretty good summary of the basics. Weapon options can get complicated for gymnasts. Listing out the good options for traits would be a good idea. Mention the starknife and light hammer for thrown builds.
Thanks for the feedback.
I plan to put the throwing build in the 'esoteric and out-there builds' section, along with a martial-artist swashbuckler, and a full-plate swashbuckler.
I also didn't want to bloat the weapon choice section, so I just went over some of the basics/common go-to weapons. I mean, with all the splat books the choice for weapons already is pretty big. Did you know Reinforced stock is a finesse weapon? Meaning you can swasbuckle by swinging your gun around?
Very nice guide!
It might be worth mentioning the Intuitive Cooperation and Helpful Halfling feats for the Halfing Ancestry, since this is a pretty nice boost for Aid-focused Wit Swashbucklers. (I'd also be inclined to make Halflings blue for Wit Swashbucklers.)
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Very nice guide!
It might be worth mentioning the Intuitive Cooperation and Helpful Halfling feats for the Halfing Ancestry, since this is a pretty nice boost for Aid-focused Wit Swashbucklers. (I'd also be inclined to make Halflings blue for Wit Swashbucklers.)
I did mention them in passing in one section, but I can make their presence more well known in the guide.
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It's a fencer WITH A GUN. Pistol Phenom archetype gives pistol twirl with the dedication so you can feint at range and use thrown weapons for your finishers since pistol twirl works with any ranged attack. Put a bayonet on your pistol and you can still function with melee. Many of the pistol phenom feats are usable with the swashbuckler since they don't outright require strikes with firearms. As a dex class, you're still pretty good with them though if you decide to shoot.The gunbuckler definitely belongs in "out there" builds though.Tell me more! What is this build?
Couldn’t you just twirl your explosive dog sliced around and then throw a throwing knife? Seems like the perfect Goblin build.
“Say hello to my Spoongun!” (Throws dagger)
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Overall looks good. A few small thoughts:
I think it’s generally accepted that Battledancer compares their roll against all observing foes, and the immunity to fascinating performance doesn’t matter, because you don’t need to actually fascinate them, or even use fascinating performance at all. You just need to make a performance check to perform. That gives Battledancer an advantage in gaining panache that other styles don’t have. It’s possible the common interpretation of that has changed, but Battledancer does have different phrasing than all of the other styles.
Gymnasts can run into creatures who are immune. Anything 2 sizes larger, or assuming Titan Wrestler (what else are they going to spend a skill feat on?), three sizes larger. So a small gymnast will have trouble with Huge creatures, and a medium gymnast will have trouble with gargantuan or larger. Since those are also likely to be boss fights, that can be a big hinderance.
I think I mentioned this in an earlier thread as well. Fencer should get some credit for Create a Diversion being able to be used at range. You at least mention Create a Diversion, which is good. It’s not terribly exciting, as it targets perception dc same as feint, but it’s better than having to always be in melee.
One advantage of using a buckler is that it still allows you to do maneuvers, so it’s an option for a gymnast if they don’t want the open hand style. Also, for a fencer, the glamorous buckler can give a bonus to feint. Though it makes the already rough action economy worse, as you have to spend the action to raise a shield before you try to feint if you want the bonus, so if the feint fails, you’ve only got one action to try to tumble through or feint someone else, and nothing left to attack with.
Finishers being 2d6 vs Sneak Attack being 1d6 to me is kind of a wash, since Sneak Attack can apply to more than one attack per round, and you can’t attack after a finisher.
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Overall looks good. A few small thoughts:
I think it’s generally accepted that Battledancer compares their roll against all observing foes, and the immunity to fascinating performance doesn’t matter, because you don’t need to actually fascinate them, or even use fascinating performance at all. You just need to make a performance check to perform. That gives Battledancer an advantage in gaining panache that other styles don’t have. It’s possible the common interpretation of that has changed, but Battledancer does have different phrasing than all of the other styles.
Gymnasts can run into creatures who are immune. Anything 2 sizes larger, or assuming Titan Wrestler (what else are they going to spend a skill feat on?), three sizes larger. So a small gymnast will have trouble with Huge creatures, and a medium gymnast will have trouble with gargantuan or larger. Since those are also likely to be boss fights, that can be a big hinderance.
I think I mentioned this in an earlier thread as well. Fencer should get some credit for Create a Diversion being able to be used at range. You at least mention Create a Diversion, which is good. It’s not terribly exciting, as it targets perception dc same as feint, but it’s better than having to always be in melee.
One advantage of using a buckler is that it still allows you to do maneuvers, so it’s an option for a gymnast if they don’t want the open hand style. Also, for a fencer, the glamorous buckler can give a bonus to feint. Though it makes the already rough action economy worse, as you have to spend the action to raise a shield before you try to feint if you want the bonus, so if the feint fails, you’ve only got one action to try to tumble through or feint someone else, and nothing left to attack with.
Finishers being 2d6 vs Sneak Attack being 1d6 to me is kind of a wash, since Sneak Attack can apply to more than one attack per round, and you can’t attack after a finisher.
Thanks for the input.
Couple of responses:
For fascinating performance I just went with what was written on Archives of Nethys (I wrote a lot of this while I was away from my books so AoN was a life-saver)
When you Perform, compare your result to the Will DC of one observer. If you succeed, the target is fascinated by you for 1 round. If the observer is in a situation that demands immediate attention, such as combat, you must critically succeed to fascinate it and the Perform action gains the incapacitation trait. You must choose which creature you’re trying to fascinate before you roll your check, and the target is then temporarily immune for 1 hour. If you’re an expert in Performance, you can fascinate up to four observers; if you’re a master, you can fascinate up to 10 observers; and if you’re legendary, you can fascinate any number of observers at the same time.
Gymnast: Oh, shoot, I forgot to put titan wrestler in there as a required feat for Gymnasts, which should take care of most monsters, especially if you get legendary in athletcis and you are medium sized. I was more thinking of monsters that are just straight up immune to, say, trip or grapple. I've only encountered a few of those in games.
Buckler: Didn't think about that, thanks for the tip.
Confidant Finisher: Notice I didn't rate the finisher super high. It certainly can situationaly be better than a sneak attack, but situationaly can be worse.
ALSO
Yes, I'll put in Light Hammers. Don't know how I missed them. Though I will say, benefit of throwing daggers is that they are finesse, so you can swashbuckle melee with them in a pinch. Starknives I've never liked. While cool, don't get me wrong, I've never liked the d4 damage that they do compared to everything else. At least in this system they are deadly d6.
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Re: Battlerdancer, the difference is that while Battledancer gives you fascinating performance, it never says that you have to use it. It just says, “You gain panache during an encounter when the result of your Performance check to Perform exceeds the Will DC of an observing foe, even if the foe isn't fascinated.” It would have said when you use Fascinating Performance instead, but went with Perform check to Perform and “an observing for,” so I’ve generally seen it work more like Inspire Coyrage, but compared to enemy DCs. If you succeed against any enemy that can see you, you gain panache.
I agree that may not be intended, and in general I don’t advocate for using readings that stretch the rules in a guide. This one was just accepted without much controversy when Battledancer was published. But it’s possible that’s changed, as I haven’t kept up on all the conversations around Swashbuckler over the last year.
For gymnast, size is more likely to be an issue for a small gymnast, as running into huge creatures before you can get Legendary is common enough. I had my 3rd level Swashbuckler go up against a huge creature in PFS. He’s not a gymnast, but it was still pretty tough to get panache against the thing. From what I understand, it’s the same creature, just weakened, in the 1-2 tier. So even a level 1 medium gymnast could get shut out if they aren’t getting Titan Wrestler from their background. It’s essentially a required feat at level 2 to minimize issues.
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Yeah, so definitely worth a mention, as it's either going to be your 2nd level skill feat, or your first Stylish Trick feat at 3rd level, if you want something that isn't based on a physical stat skill at 2nd.
I mentioned it:
Note that without Titan Wrestler, a lot of larger creatures than you will be immune to your gymnast schtick, so make sure to pick up that skill feat ASAP.
Also put up three 'out there' builds. The martial artist swashbuckler, the heavy armor swashbuckler, and, by popular demand, the Pistol Phenom Flying blade swashbuckler.
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I know you mention bare-handed builds using Dueling Parry. I've normally seen people commenting on it disqualify bare-hand builds from that due to its requirement of 'wielding only a single one-handed melee weapon ... ' though, since 'nothing' doesn't count as a weapon even if it's as deadly as a shortsword. Personally, I think it *should* be usable unarmed, but you may find others who will deny it.
And if this has been overturned somewhere, please let me know. I want my grappler to not have to resort to bucklers..
If you want to do "dueling parry plus punching" you can always hold something in one of your hands you do not plan on attacking with. Pointing out that "I only need one hand to make stumbling swing attacks anyway" will probably get the objection to be dropped.
Alternatively there are several one handed melee weapons which are 1 sp so significantly cheaper than a buckler. For my swashbuckler for Ruby Phoenix I used a completely nonmagical spear with stumbling style to enable dueling parry that I mostly just described as leaning on for balance.
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I know you mention bare-handed builds using Dueling Parry. I've normally seen people commenting on it disqualify bare-hand builds from that due to its requirement of 'wielding only a single one-handed melee weapon ... ' though, since 'nothing' doesn't count as a weapon even if it's as deadly as a shortsword. Personally, I think it *should* be usable unarmed, but you may find others who will deny it.
And if this has been overturned somewhere, please let me know. I want my grappler to not have to resort to bucklers..
I mean, if your GM is that persnickety about it, then just buy a Gauntlet and have it on your hand and not use it. At that there is nothing they can complain about.
I think you've misread Eternal Confidence. Its effect is to turn every finisher/riposte you do into a Confident Finisher. While this only adds a small bit to ripostes, this is incredibly good for standard finishers. For instance, Dual Finisher now lets you do 3d6 (or 6d6) damage on a miss to both enemies.
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I think you've misread Eternal Confidence. Its effect is to turn every finisher/riposte you do into a Confident Finisher. While this only adds a small bit to ripostes, this is incredibly good for standard finishers. For instance, Dual Finisher now lets you do 3d6 (or 6d6) damage on a miss to both enemies.
Hmmm, you might be right. To be fair, that’s like, three class features and a feat all interacting. I think I missed the bit where the precise strike damage always becomes d6s on any finishers, not just confidant finisher.
As for Your Next, the thing I don’t like about it is that you have to finish an enemy, AND have an enemy remaining AND it has to be susceptible to intimidate AND they have to see you. So if you almost kill the enemy, then the wizard finishes it off with a fireball? Nothing. If you killed the necromancer and all that are left are his mindless skeletons, nothing. If you kill the synapse demon but the master is in the room beyond and didn’t see you because you were around the corner? Nothing. It just seems. . . very situational.
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If you have targets that are able to be demoralized, which is most creatures, it'll come up a reasonable amount of time. Of course it's not good against zombies but braggarts in general aren't good against mindless creatures. You're next supports their core mechanic.
I dunno, I’ve been with a rogue who has your next for a while. He tries to use it every chance he gets and it never works. Either he just downed the last enemy, or he downed the last non-mindless enemy, or he reduces the enemy to 1 HP and the wizard finishes him off with an acid splash.
I get that it is good on paper, I just think it is a little too situational.
I'm able to use You're Next on my Braggart Swash in maybe a little more than half our encounters (Extinction Curse). In boss fights it is whatever, but that's fine. It falls into the category of nice-when-it-happens-but-not-super-impactful for me.
Party Composition: me, dragon kick monk, maestro bard, animal druid
Oh and something else that is nice - if you manage to get shield block and them bastion archetype, the disarming flair level 1 feat works very well will the disarming block feat. Bonus points if you are gymnast as you will get panache on a success. Getting panache on a reaction can be nice
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Oh and something else that is nice - if you manage to get shield block and them bastion archetype, the disarming flair level 1 feat works very well will the disarming block feat. Bonus points if you are gymnast as you will get panache on a success. Getting panache on a reaction can be niceGood point about bastion. You are still spending an action to raise a shield, so it's still as efficient as other options but if you're fighting creatures with weapons, you can avoid map on your finishers more easily this way.
I can include that in an esoteric build.
I know it already was mentioned, but you do need a one handed weapon for Dueling Parry. You should at least pay lip service to that rule in the guide somewhere to avoid someone getting hit with a surprise when a GM points it out.
A really good weapon (but advanced) you didn't mention is the Bladed Hoop. d8s if you two hand it, d6s if you no hand it.
Giant Gnolls get a circumstance bonus on Shove and Trip, so they may be worth mentioning for Gymnast use.
Goading Feint and Disarming Flair are both staples for a tankbuckler build for their respective Styles. They are fine pick-ups at level 2 or with Natural Ambition, or instead of the parry-and-others feats if you don't expect to have the action economy.
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I think you've underrated the Wit style a bit. The target wasting an action on removing the penalty is more useful than it sounds, and One For All being Aid-based means the bonus it provides to allies scales up higher the more you level - a near-guaranteed +4 is nuts at high levels. At a minimum, with your current rating, it may be clearer to readers to make it a red/green mix rather than have it entirely red with a highlighted note (my suggested rating would be something like yellow/green or yellow/blue).
I'm aware you're not up to 4th-level class feats yet, but it may be worth giving Battledancer a mixed-color rating due to Leading Dance. I'm not a fan of Battledancer myself, but Leading Dance is pretty good and seems to be the main reason why people like it/think the style is good overall.
I appreciate the comments, but my ratings of the style feats are based on no feats taken. With that in mind, Wit is the worst because it applies in the least amount of situations and provides the worst benefit to the swashbuckler (-2 to will isn't great. Sure it can help out casters and such, but not much of a help to swashbucklers except to do some more bon mots I guess.) Even with All for One it isn't that great because the DCs are so high. It is the cooperative nature+All for One that makes it good. I suppose I could put in a variation coloring in parentheses though. Same thing applies to the Battle Dancer.
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Made some modifications.
Got up to level 2 class feats.
Added the bastion stance shield block disarm monster to the list of esoteric builds.
Added a bit more to the style section, including a note about how Leading Dance makes battledancers a lot better.
Also added in the bit about how Dueling Parry technically needs a weapon under the 'Errol Flynn' section.
Put down the first level of class feats.
Also updated battledancer as I noticed something that makes it TERRIBLE.
Just looked to see what this was but I don't see it. Interested to know as I've been planning to make a battledancer.
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Just looked to see what this was but I don't see it. Interested to know as I've been planning to make a battledancer.Put down the first level of class feats.
Also updated battledancer as I noticed something that makes it TERRIBLE.
Basically it is that the battledancer's fascinating performance has the incapacitate trait which, when joined with the fact that you already need a critical success to fascinate someone, means anyone higher level than you CAN NEVER BE FASCINATED by your performance ever. There's a feat that kinda sorta solves this. In other words, if you try to facinating performance someone higher level than you, you can get panache, but you will never debuff them.
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You still gain panache even if you don't fascinate, you just have to beat the will DC with a perform check. The real draw for Battledancer is the level 4 feat "Leading Dance" from what I've seen, since that's some powerful forced movement.
If you're worried about gaining panache from bosses and critters above your level, tumble through is going to be a better option almost always since Dex is the only stat you can start with at 18.
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Basically it is that the battledancer's fascinating performance has the incapacitate trait which, when joined with the fact that you already need a critical success to fascinate someone, means anyone higher level than you CAN NEVER BE FASCINATED by your performance ever. There's a feat that kinda sorta solves this. In other words, if you try to facinating performance someone higher level than you, you can get panache, but you will never debuff them.Just looked to see what this was but I don't see it. Interested to know as I've been planning to make a battledancer.Put down the first level of class feats.
Also updated battledancer as I noticed something that makes it TERRIBLE.
Honestly Fascinated isn't a particularly useful condition, anyways. The main strengths of Battledancer is that it's very easy to get Panache in exchange for a not super consistent or strong effect aside from Panache.