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Honestly Fascinated isn't a particularly useful condition, anyways. The main strengths of Battledancer is that it's very easy to get Panache in exchange for a not super consistent or strong effect aside from Panache.Basically it is that the battledancer's fascinating performance has the incapacitate trait which, when joined with the fact that you already need a critical success to fascinate someone, means anyone higher level than you CAN NEVER BE FASCINATED by your performance ever. There's a feat that kinda sorta solves this. In other words, if you try to facinating performance someone higher level than you, you can get panache, but you will never debuff them.Just looked to see what this was but I don't see it. Interested to know as I've been planning to make a battledancer.Put down the first level of class feats.
Also updated battledancer as I noticed something that makes it TERRIBLE.
Yep. You gain panache anyway its not a feat you have to buy.You gain panache during an encounter when the result of your Performance check to Perform exceeds the Will DC of an observing foe, even if the foe isn't fascinated
Its actually stronger than the other types in terms of gaining panache because you are comparing it to the lowest DC with Facsinating Performance, and there is no cool down immunity to Leading Dance.
Two different ways to gain panache for the battle dancer. But any other performance check can work anyway.
fascinated is not a very useful condition to use in combat as it only affects their active actions and it ends when they attack. Do you have an illusionist or a stealth character in the party?
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Yeah, basically the balance point is that Battledancer has the worst panache ability but the fewest strings attached to their actual panache generation.
YMMV on whether or not that's worthwhile in the long run.
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Yeah, each of the different Panache strategies has their pros and cons:
The Default is Tumble Through, Acrobatics(Dex) vs. Reflex, critically failing just triggers reactions and is otherwise fine.
Battledancer is Perform (Cha) vs. Will, it attacks a different save, and can be done at range, but Fascinate is weak, but you suffer no ill effects for failing (even critically)
Braggart is Intimidation (Cha) vs. Will, attacks a different save, can be done at range, is a good debuff, there's no penalty for failing, but you can't Demoralize the same target twice in a 10 minute period.
Fencer is Deception (Cha) vs. Perception, attacks something other than Reflex, can't be done at range, flat-footed is a good debuff that ties directly into "hit them with a finisher" but there are lots of ways for a party to get it, and there is a penalty for failing.
Wit is Diplomacy (Cha) vs. Will, attacks a non-reflex save, can be done at range, is a weak debuff, and is limited by having the linguistic trait, and there is a penalty for failing.
Gymnast is Athletics (Str) vs. Fortitude or Reflex, needs melee range, cares about size, shove is not a debuff but grabbed/restrained and prone are good ones, but grappling commits you, while tripping isn't as effective at gaining panache as tumbling through, penalties for failing can be harsh.
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Hey guys, I really want to thank you for helping me upgrade the guide. I do want to point out that I have already implemented a lot of your suggestions. I do have a bit about using create a diversion to fence at range, and I have covered a lot. Also, remember, these red-orange-green-blue indicators are only things as I see them. If you have a difference of opinion that's fine! But not every choice can be blue. If you find a major error in my figures (like some rule I've forgotten or some synergy I don't understand) please point it out. However, if your only comment is 'I think X is better than you think it is," remember this is all opinion and my subjective viewpoint against yours. If you like it THAT IS FINE. I just might not agree.
I think next week I might take a break before heading back to the old class feat mine. I've got a new google doc I'm thinking of cooking up. I hope everyone likes it!
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Hey guys, I’m back. Took a load off to start another project so I didn’t get burned out on this one. That project isn’t done yet but I’ll let you know when it is. Added a new section to the guide which is just a few odds and ends, suggested archetypes and such. Also added a new esoteric build (the ninja) and finished up to level six feats, enjoy!
Fencer can technically use create a diversion at range. Only really works with confabulator past 7th level though.
Pistol Twirl from Gunslinger is what you want for Feinting at range
Which means you need a hand crossbow with a bayonet attachment in your off hand and fight with two weapons. Hmm I'll have to build that...
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Fencer can technically use create a diversion at range. Only really works with confabulator past 7th level though.Pistol Twirl from Gunslinger is what you want for Feinting at range
Which means you need a hand crossbow with a bayonet attachment in your off hand and fight with two weapons. Hmm I'll have to build that...
It is in the guide as Swash-gun-aler.
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It's worth mentioning combination finisher is especially useful for gymnasts since their panache actions have the attack trait. I have another esoteric build, The Boxer. Basically a fencer with monk archetype. If your a human, start with martial artist to get stumbling stance and stumbling feint then take monk archetype to get FOB to as a single action, feint and then attack twice and follow up with a combination finisher at -6 as your attack pattern. Flavor stumbling stance as a traditional boxing stance full of feints and fakeouts. Non humans can still do this by 12th level instead of 10.
I mean, that’s basically the unarmed build/ martial artist build I already put up but with all the specifics picked out. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a nice build, but the point of the esoteric build sections isn’t ‘here is an exact roadmap of your character,’ but more of a ‘Hey, did you know you could take you swashbuckler in this direction?’
Like, I appreciate the thought and the time you put into the build, but that’s just not what the section is for.
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I just finished reading this and it's a very nice guide. I like that you're going more for general understanding than precisely prescribed builds.
I have a few more tidbits that might be worth including:
-The combat grapnel is a finesse thrown 20ft flail with a few other traits. I think for finesse weapons its among the best thrown range/damage die options available. And the flail weapon group has a very good critical effect. It's also a nice piratey weapon. I think it's worth a look for flying blade builds. It's uncommon, but at least in PFS a good choice of home region gives access.
- While kobolds are a bit scrawny for melee swashbucklers, the grovel feat would allow a Fencer to gain panache at 30ft. If you then wanted to move into melee you'd have the extra speed from panache. Or of course, you can use it to power up a flying blade build.
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Grovel also roles against Will DC instead of Perception, which is huge.
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UGH, finally done with the feats. I think that's it for the time being. I've incorporated some of the recent requests and tips (such as the combat grapnel, Kobold Grovel). I may come back and update this if someone finds some more things to point out, but right now I think I'm going to work on something else.
Still, if you find something amiss, please let me know, I will keep my eye out on this thread.
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About the spare weapon you suggest in the bottom of your guide, wouldn't be more efficient to play with a gauntlet and doubling rings?
Having the free hand trait allows the swashbuckler to use all stances ( dueling, buckler and twin parry ), and by enhancing it you'd be able to draw any weapon, sharing the runes on your gauntlet.
This would allow you to:
- Get different special material weapons, in addition to a bludgeon damage one.
- The secondary weapon, as any other weapon, is going to share fundamental ( and by lvl 13 property ) runes, resulting in higher hit chances and damage.Not that would be cool to see a gauntlet swashbuckler, but considering we are in a world of full plate wizards and flurry of blows animal barbarians...
Gauntlets are not finesse so it would use your strength to hit, which could be problematic for some builds. Plus, doubling rings require weapons in two different hands, again, problematic if you are a shield or dueling parry swashbuckler.
I'm amazed how low you value perfect finisher and deadly grace. Combined with keen flair, L14-L16 cause such a spike in damage for the SB with perfect finisher, keen flair and deadly grace that in my eyes that should all be blue or better even.
Let's take a quick math check for those, at least. I'm curious to see the results.
So let's do a quick ballpark for a level 16 Swashbuckler. For the sake of ease, let's say they have 12 Str, and a +3 greater striking rapier with one damaging property rune. That comes out to approximately +29, at 3d6+4+1d6 elemental+5d6 precision, with +2d8 on a crit. This averages 35.5 damage, 80 on a crit, 89 with deadly grace, 17.5 on a precise finisher miss.
Assuming all calculations are done vs a flat-footed enemy, comparing to precise finisher:
High 14, 36 (34) AC: Base hit/crit 80/30%, increased to 96/49%, damage of 44.375/47.075 increased to 55.885/60.295
High 16, 39 (37) AC: Base hit/crit 65/15%, increased to 88/28%, damage of 35/36.35 increased to 43.7/46.22
High 18, 42 (40) AC: Base hit/crit 50/10%, increased to 75/19%, damage of 30/30.975 increased to 35/36.79
Just eyeballing the numbers from there, if you're using Deadly Grace you mainly want to be making multiple attacks vs lower level enemies to get best use of it, whereas Perfect Finisher sees a dramatically bigger increase in single-use finisher attacks. I'm not sure I'd want to take them together - if I were to pick the best use for Deadly Grace, I'd look for it to be used on Dual Finisher instead, but if I didn't have Dual Finisher, I'd much rather take only Perfect Finisher.
Glancing over the most recent update, I'm more surprised you're undervaluing Incredible Luck and Parry and Riposte.
Incredible Luck is just so ridiculously powerful, it basically near-guarantees you'll pass whatever save you're using it on. And the ability to do that is incredibly strong.
From the rest of your guide, you value ripostes so highly that you even rate Reflexive Riposte blue. Parry and Riposte makes it so much more likely you'll trigger a riposte, I'm surprised you're rating it so low. If you're focusing on ripostes, you're going to have one of the stance parry feats -that's basically inarguable. So it's giving you effectively +10 AC for the purpose of ripostes against anyone you've hit with a finisher, which you should be able to do consistently.
Re: Dual Finisher, it's pretty clear. You're making attacks as part of a finisher, and completing Dual Finisher causes you to lose panache. I don't see any reason you wouldn't get finisher damage on both attacks.
Just eyeballing the numbers from there, if you're using Deadly Grace you mainly want to be making multiple attacks vs lower level enemies to get best use of it, whereas Perfect Finisher sees a dramatically bigger increase in single-use finisher attacks. I'm not sure I'd want to take them together - if I were to pick the best use for Deadly Grace, I'd look for it to be used on Dual Finisher instead, but if I didn't have Dual Finisher, I'd much rather take only Perfect Finisher.
I agree that perfect finisher is the must take feat. Deadly grace could be skipped. But with a swashbuckler having at worst a 1 in 5 chance of a crit (19%, OK) against any boss, which is better than other martials, due to the "keen true strike", you should target to crit as often as possible, including against on level or lower monsters, which will still have loads of HP. Deadly grace add 2 or 3 extra dice to those crits. Not too bad. Works best for the "finisher every round" builds of course. Those builds should also target to have as many extra damage damage dies as possible (damage runes, sneak).
A soulforger swashbuckler, harming malice for an extra die, planar pain to convert all precision/physical damage to another type, against those precision immune creatures. Healing grace for some fast healing.
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I really want to like parry and riposte, but it is so dang niche that knocks it down for me. Only works against someone you did a finisher against last round? So if you miss it doesn’t happen, first round of combat it doesn’t happen. If your enemies are intelligent it doesn’t happen more than once (and they just attack someone else). It is one of those feats that seems good until you read it.
I gave deadly grace a full green. It’s good, just not fantastic. Maybe it’s just me, but I’ve gone multiple sessions with my rogue (roughly similar to-hit as a swashbuckler) never getting a crit, so a feat that applies only to crits is just a bit weaker than something with universal application.
As for incredible luck, if it applied after you rolled it would be blue-green for sure. But the fact that you could ‘waste’ it on a nat 20 on your first save only to need to make a save later in the round? And the fact that it has a prerequisite of a pretty underwhelming feat knocks it down for me.
If you're focusing on ripostes, you're going to have one of the stance parry feats -that's basically inarguable.
Challenge accepted! The stumbling style punchbuckler using its incredible action economy to feint and attack twice cannot combine this with a second stance, but they have actions to spare so you might get the first parry feat and ignore the stance one.
Of course the basic problem is that Parry and Riposte doesn't work with bucklers. Kind of weird that a decision you make at 1st level (Dueling Parry vs. Buckler Expertise) matters at 18th.
I agree that it's a good ability, but it's a little janky. The "used a finisher last round" clause is my biggest problem with it, since "spamming finishers" is a sometimes food.
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Gauntlets are not finesse so it would use your strength to hit, which could be problematic for some builds. Plus, doubling rings require weapons in two different hands, again, problematic if you are a shield or dueling parry swashbuckler.About the spare weapon you suggest in the bottom of your guide, wouldn't be more efficient to play with a gauntlet and doubling rings?
Having the free hand trait allows the swashbuckler to use all stances ( dueling, buckler and twin parry ), and by enhancing it you'd be able to draw any weapon, sharing the runes on your gauntlet.
This would allow you to:
- Get different special material weapons, in addition to a bludgeon damage one.
- The secondary weapon, as any other weapon, is going to share fundamental ( and by lvl 13 property ) runes, resulting in higher hit chances and damage.
HumbleGamer isn't suggesting that you use the gauntlets to attack. You apply runes to them, then share those runes with your secondary weapon by using doubling rings, which you use to attack.
As HumbleGamer pointed out, gauntlets have the free-hand trait, which reads: "When you're not wielding anything and not otherwise using the hand, you can use abilities that require you to have a hand free as well as those that require you to be wielding a weapon in that hand. Each of your hands can have only one free-hand weapon on it." So it works with Dueling Parry.
It's an okay build. You have less flexibility on runes, and the swashbuckler can't get Quick Draw natively, but you benefit from multiple damage types and special materials.
Also, you overlooked the starknife when discussing flying blade weapons.