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So, let's say you have some holy army, the type that goes on crusades, or whatever. Which classes make up which ranks of the overall unit?
What is the standard infantry soldier, your grunts? Multiclass NPC classes (Adept and Warrior)? Random holy-themed full BAB archetypes (like Divine Tracker Rangers)?
Warpriests are probably the next step up from your basic grunts, right? Or would it go NPC classes, then holy-themed full BAB archetypes, THEN the Warpriests?
I think Inquisitors are special ops types, like your gestapo, your secret soldiers... the ones that do the unspeakable dirty work. Paladins are similar, but on the other side of the same coin.
Where do Clerics fit into these ranks? How high up the chain of command are Clerics? How close to the front lines are they?
Where do the Omdura fit into the mix? I know so little about that class...
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I guess I was assuming a pretty high magic setting.
And to give a scale of the military I am talking about... a single commander [Lionheart] in the 3rd Crusade had some 40,000 men in his command! Nothing in Pathfinder likely supports those numbers being feasible, but we are talking about entire military divisions marching to war...
I figure most generic soldiers, the grunts, would be something like Warrior 4/Adept 4... or be somewhere along the way getting to that point. That gives them about 50hp, BAB +6, four feats, and some 2nd-level spells. Barbarians, Cavaliers, Fighters, Rangers... could probably all be considered grunts. Each 4-person team probably has an archer, someone with reach, someone with a shield, and someone casting generic spells.
Above them, but still absolutely front line soldiers, are the Warpriests (and probably Omdura). I'm thinking one Warpriest for every 3-4 grunts. Like team leaders.
Two teams of four or five make up a squad, with an additional squad leader. Squad leaders are probably where your Paladins are most often found.
Four squads make a platoon, with an additonal two persons. A platoon leader, and an officer. The officer found at platoon level is usually the lowest ranking officer position within the overall chain of command. The platoon leader is usually a seasoned veteran and is the true authority of the platoon, regardless of being outranked by the officer on a technical level.
Medics, scouts, communications/interpreters, and any other specialty personnel are assigned as-needed... but are seldom considered to be associated with any specific team or squad.
That basic structure is how I try to organize essentially all my intelligent enemy NPC's, as well... from Bandits to Goblins to Kobolds... two teams make a squad [~10 persons], four squads make a platoon [~50 persons], four platoons make a company [~150 persons], four companies make a battalion [~1000 persons], four battalions make a brigade [~5000 persons], four brigades make a division [~25,000 persons]... the unaccounted for "extra" persons are your specialty units and support [cooks, accountants, drivers, etc].
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I can see how that may be a little excessive... I will meet you halfway...
Average grunt is 4HD, Warrior 2/Adept 2... team leaders can be 8HD, Warrior 4/Adept 4... squad leader would be 8HD, Paladins or whatever... and honestly, there is very little actual combat seen above the squad leader position, so any higher rank is probably whatever the story calls for at the time.
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I mean, it is YOUR imaginary army. You can make it whatever you want.
In Paizo's Golarion setting, most actual military forces will be mostly comprised of low-level commoners or warriors. Only the commanders would have actual class levels. Often only 4 or 5 for field leaders, slightly more for colonels/generals until you get to the "Supreme High Commander" equivalent, who might have 11 or 12.
Take Molthune, a nation with a large standing army. According to Lands of Conflict
Combatants sent to the border have been trained well and outfitted with quality equipment (usually a suit of chainmail, a longsword, and a light steel shield).
That's a warrior 1 if I've ever seen one. Heck,the head of the scouting forces for the entire nation is only a level 5 ranger.
By contrast Nirmathas (the area Molthune is at war with) relies on very small guerilla units. Almost everyone has 4-6 class levels, but we're talking about a few dozen units, mostly of 6 or less characters. A few larger militias, but with about the same number of people with class levels scattered in one. Mostly commoners.
Even if you're talking about a volunteer holy army, say Lastwall or Mendev, you're still going to have the vast majority of the rank-and-file as commoners who see this as their only shot at fame, wealth, and glory. Most will die before gaining class levels. A "team leader" is just an old hand who knows the ropes. Maybe she's gained a warrior level or two, or a fighter level if she's been fortunate enough to have the right instruction.
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The way I see it, your infantry are primarily comprised of Fighters, Rangers (Divine Tracker), Monks, and Cavaliers… with fighters being the bulk of your foot soldiers, Rangers providing archery support, Cavaliers being exactly as their name suggests your cavalry, and Monks serving as squad leaders.
Above them you would have Warpriests and Omdura issuing commands to various squads. Between the two, Omdura would be lower on the command and travels with individual squads to provide oversite and support while the warpriest travels between squads.
Clerics and Oracles would largely fill a support and combat medic roll in a large army since out of everyone they would be the ones most suited to this task. Even though they CAN operate in any role, it would not be advised since their talents would most certainly be most needed as support and combat medic.
Paladins are absolutely among the leadership within such an army.
Inquisitors would similarly be among the leadership, however, they would typically take up positions either directly under or above a Paladin in the chain of command. Usually they would work under a Paladin, not because the Paladin needs to be over them to keep them in-line but because it is easier to undermine the Paladins authority and do things that you believe must be done that a Paladin will not if you are the one to issue the commands to your soldiers. Meanwhile the Inquisitors who operate above a Paladin do so to direct where the army is headed while simultaneously acting as a moral shield between the Paladin and whoever is actually leading the crusade.
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Chell Raighn, your analysis appears to be quite in line with what I am imagining. In purpose, position, and rank within the chain of command... all of it, I agree with all of that. I was even wondering where a Monk might fit in, and you already included it. Thank you.
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I do really like the Divine Commander. A lot. It's a good one.
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Other militaries may call their individual ranks by completely different names, and how they divide up their ranks/the size of their teams [or whatever] may vary... I am most familiar with the US Army's rank structure and unit breakdown, so forgive me if these names don't mean anything to you. Just know I am starting at low ranks, and working my way up the chain of command:
Privates = Warrior NPC class
... probably 1-2 levels
Specialist = Warrior/Adept multiclass
... 2 levels of each, 4 levels total
Sergeant = Fighter/Ranger/Cavalier
... BAB +6, so about 6 levels
Staff Sergeant = Warpriest/Omdura
... BAB +6, so about 8 levels
Lieutenant = Inquisitor/Paladin
... probably 11+ levels
At full strength, units breakdown would be:
Team =
4 privates/specialist + 1 team leader
Team Leader =
1 sergeant
Squad =
2 teams + 2 team leaders + 1 squad leader
Squad Leader =
1 staff sergeant
Platoon =
4 squads + 1 (or 2) platoon leader(s)
Platoon Leader =
1 (or 2) lieutrnant(s)
Your typical Inquisitor/Paladin would have roughly ~44 people in their command... 4 Warpriest/Omadura, 8 Fighter/Ranger/Cavalier, and ~32 Warriors and/or Warrior/Adept multiclass.
Four such platoons would make up a company, and any specialty communications or medical personnel would be additional... handed out to each platoon as resources allow. You can pretty much assume every platoon will have a medic, an interpreter, and a scout assigned to it.
Every team will have someone with a ranged weapon, someone with a reach weapon, someone with a shield, and someone casting spells. Who does what is irrelevant, so long as all positions are covered. No ranks are associated with any particular build or weapon... some sergeants will be archers, some will be spearmen. Some lieutenants may have shields and other lieutenants have slings.
So some Warpriests might be Arsenal Chaplains, and other Warpriests might be Divine Commanders. There is strength in diversity, and they say variety is the spice of life.
The bulk of any army is going to be warriors, that is pretty much what the class is designed for. Fighters are supposed to be a step up from the common soldier. You will also have a lot of Experts for mundane support roles. Even religious armies needs someone to make and repair weapons and do all the other mundane tasks needed to keep an army going.
A lot of your command structure will probably be fighters, with a smattering of other full BAB classes. Clerics will also probably be fairly common especially if they channel positive energy. About 1 1st level cleric per 20-50 people would be ideal. These don’t have to be combat capable clerics, although some might be. A first level cleric can memorize create water, purify food and drink and stabilize and be able to cast a couple cure light wounds. Add in channel energy and that will allow you to heal up almost any of your soldier that are not killed in almost no time. This puts evil armies at a disadvantage.
Your PC classes will tend to be your elite forces. Cavaliers will usually be the bulk of your cavalry, but depending on the culture you may also favor rangers, or barbarians. Rangers, rouges, slayers and inquisitors will be your scouts and spies. Combat focus clerics, paladins and warpriests will usually be in leadership positions. Arcane casters are special weapons to be utilized as needed.
Bards and Skalds will be scattered throughout the army where they can boost up the troops as needed.
One of the things to remember is that the more magic involved, the more the structure of your army and its tactics will be affected. You only have to look at how technology affected real-world military forces to see what I’m talking about. Artillery changed how infantry and cavalry forces fought within a tiny fraction of the timespans involved in most campaign settings, but that’s not something most game designers have much time for. At the same time, though, this is a game where high-level spellcasters could annihilate an army while still on the march—before the battle even happens.
The makeup of your hypothetical force will depend on how elite you want it to be. Going back as far as the AD&D days, military forces ranged from militias comprised of poorly equipped 1st-level fodder to mercenary companies where the average foot soldier was a 4th-level Fighter with magical arms and armor, potions, etc. If you can get a hold of a copy, FR15 Gold and Glory, an AD&D 2nd Edition Forgotten Realms supplement, is an excellent resource (in my humble opinion) for examples of what elite forces other than traditional armies can look like.
I would take inspiration from historical examples, personally. For example, the French gendarme companies of the 15th-16th centuries was nominally comprised of 100 lances, each of which was a squad of six mounted men: the knight, another armored cavalryman, three archers who would dismount for battle, and a page or squire. In this setup, the knight would be a Paladin, his second would be a Fighter (or perhaps a Cavalier), the three archers would be 1st-2nd level Warriors, while the page would be either an Expert or a low level Paladin-in-training. Other nations often included three or more infantrymen in a lance, Companies were often broken down into elements like squadrons (themselves comprising of four or more lances), and it’s probably at this level that you’d find one or more Clerics and/or Warpriest. Same with the “command lance” and those lances that either carried special prestige or were expected to carry out critical roles.
Personally, I like the thought of my most lackluster soldier still being a minimum of BAB +6... an untrained peasant can attack once every 6 seconds, I would expect twice that from a trained soldier. That was why I had my original grunts as Warrior 4/Adept 4... still NPC classes, but at least capable of attacking twice per round. And 8HD soldiers are slightly more difficult to kill when an invisible Sorcerer nukes a formation on the march. Stupid crap like weather doesn't have the same effect on 8HD soldiers. Color Spray doesn't eliminate entire teams of 8HD soldiers.
Then, your team leaders would be full BAB character classes, but still just BAB +6... actually end up with less hit dice, but probably better equipped (player wealth vs NPC wealth). They would rely on their classes' features to show their veteran status as team leaders of the grunts.
I was specifically going to have 3/4 BAB 6/9 casters as squad leaders... also BAB +6, giving them more hit dice than the team leaders, but still not an excessive amount over your average grunt... you would be surprised how young some commanders are, also by how old some grunts are.
I figured balancing everything from grunts to squad leaders at BAB +6, and 6-8HD was actually relatively fair. These are trained, dedicated soldiers. D@mmit, I don't want peasants with pitchforks. I don't even want George Washington's ragtag militia. These are Knights Templar on freaking holy crusades!
I figured your Paladins and Inquisitor lieutenants/platoon leaders would be BAB +11... that's, what, 15HD for an Inquisitor? These are leaders of men, and have earned their command. And this is still platoon-level units... just 40-50 people. There are four platoons in a company. A company commander would be an officer that could be literally any class or HD... essentially a politician. If they have to fire their weapon, something has gone VERY wrong. Aristocrat NPC's could be company commanders. Lol.
Nobody cares about anything above platoon-level, because platoons are where the action happens. Grunts get it done. Do the dirty work. We bring the violence. They say knowing is half the battle... well, violence is the other half. That violences occurs on the platoon level unless you are capable of destroying an entire company in one shot. So, about 150 trained soldiers in tactical formation(s), all at once... good luck with that.
I don't know, but I definitely feel that you average soldier, part of an equipped and trained military, should be suited to survive marching without dying from exhaustion. Soldiers march, a lot. Should probably have enough hit dice they can afford to bump their Strength, so they can carry more... not just all your gear, but your wounded buddy in all their gear, too. Your entire front line shouldn't literally die from a freaking wand of whocares. Those aforementioned mercenary companies with the average grunt being a 4th-level Fighter is very much what I was thinking about for my crusading Knights Templar...
To begin with, a lot of what is shown in Pathfinder’s combat rules has been qualified as not a literal reflection of actual combat. For example, going back to at least 3E-era interviews with game designers, “Armor Class” as a construct is seen as the sum of a character’s efforts to duck, weave, parry, and so on. “Hit Points” aren’t the numerical representation of someone’s bodily state, but said defensive efforts providing diminishing returns. So a 6th-level Fighter being able to attack twice during a round of combat isn’t meant to illustrate his ability against that of, e.g., a real-world 16th century Landsknecht.
Beyond that, it comes down to what you consider realistic, what you find desirable, and where the two intersect (for you). Regarding non-combat attrition, for example, historically even the most hardened and experienced of professional soldiers suffered from the environment they marched through, the weather, and so on. Depending on the severity of the factors, losses could be atrocious. Even a high-level Fighter will suffer from fatigue given enough overland movement. On the other hand, even low-level Warriors will cope well if their army has a sufficient number of spellcasters mitigating the effects of their march (through potions, scrolls, etc.).
You could, of course, say that your holy order is comprised of absolutely crack veterans: the heroes of countless battles, skirmishes, and sieges; the survivors of more forlorn hopes than most generals can recall; adventurers who have given up the path to of material fulfillment to serve the greater cause of the Clerics, Paladins, and Warpriests leading them. You wouldn’t be too far off from some published material: one of the orders in the book I cited above was comprised of 100 Paladins, mostly 5th level. The Flaming Fist, then described as the most powerful mercenary company of the Sword Coast (and the de-facto army of the city-state of Baldur’s Gate), boasted 550 3rd-level, 400 4th-level, 150 5th-level, and 50 6th-level Fighters in its main force. They also had many mid- to high-level spellcasters and lieutenants.
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So I'm still a little unclear on exactly what your intention in creating this army is, and where (what setting) it will be.
Again, it's your creation and you can make it what you want it to be.
But if you're aiming for a "roughly Golarion" level, you've way overshot. Wrath of the Righteous has several character and settlement stat blocks that provide a good overview of the levels in the crusader armies of Mendev. A frontline newly liberated city is governed by the crusaders who liberated it - a Paladin 7, with the other city leaders (high priest, spymaster, etc.) having between 6-8 class levels. Even Queen Galfrey herself (who has been fighting - and I do mean fighting - for over 100 years, thanks to a couple of doses of the Sun Orchid Elixir) is only a 15th level paladin.
Average soldiers absolutely ARE expendable in this fantasy setting. Yes, a color spray would put a hurt on those NPCs. But one, the other side won't have a ton of spellcasters either and two, that enemy d6 class has to get within 15' without eating a crossbow bolt. A fireball would wipe out a squad. But that (rare and relatively high-level) caster is better used as a counter for enemy casters than expending themselves wiping out grunts. If your squad comes across the leader of the enemy army the most effective thing you can possibly do is make him use a 1/day ability as he's killing you. As for marching, any human in PF1 can walk at least 27 miles a day using a small trail on the plains or 13.5 miles through trackless mountains. Every day, without risking fatigue. Further if they are willing to accept a chance of fatigue that will be healed by the next morning. That's actually a really long distance.
Player characters are Big Damn Heroes. A 6th-level fighter showing up in a platoon-level engagement would totally tilt the battle to one side.
I think the problem is thinking about medieval armies as a comparison for a Pathfinder army just doesn't work.
Magic completely breaks down how am army works.
That’s the point I was trying to make with my original reply.
It comes down to how much magic is in the GM’s campaign setting. Given a sufficient number of of full spellcasters AND the means to keep them loyal to a particular cause/king/whatever to the point where they are willing to be part of a standing military force, then we’re probably not talking about “armies” as we understand them*. We’re probably dealing with crack teams comprised of one or more spellcasters powerful enough to cast teleport/planeshift/whatever spells and the 3-6 individuals they can each bring with them (all of whom I’d imagine have levels in a PC class and probably a level of experience approaching that of the spellcaster) to their assigned target—at which point they unleash massive devastation.
That may very well lead to a sort of “nuclear detente” between the nations with those resources, though. War would probably look a lot like the covert wars the Great Houses fought in Frank Herbert’s Dune novels—all of which possessed atomic weapons, none of which would actually use them, lest everyone else unite to wipe them out.
* And let’s face it, that makes more sense than spending the 10-15 MILLION gold pieces it would take to equip the equivalent of Alexander the Great’s army when he started his campaign against Persia—which doesn’t account for the cost of pack animals, non-combatant experts, daily food and water intake, paying everyone, and so on.
I'm more just curious where people place certain classes within the ranks and roles of a structured military... happened to choose holy crusades as a theme to lead the discussion.
This is loosely tied to my other discussion(s) on Fear the Sun and weaponizing the Lantern Lighter Ranger's Stunning/Paralyzing Light class features... however, I did not want to muddy the waters with such a specialized task of marching into the Underdark. That probably requires a restructuring of unit size and each, individual soliers' required proficiency given the nature of the campaign... so, in a more genaral sense, I wanted to see where everyone else placed various classes within an organized military's command structure.
What classes fill which roles of your holy army?
Even if we cannot agree on the hit dice of the average grunt... who does what... which classes fill which roles in a holy crusade, for you?
Whenever I build this army, I do not want cookie-cutter, copy-and-paste units... so the more ideas can get from you [like where Monks fit in, thank you], the better this should turn out. I don't want every position to be the same class, so the more inspiration I get from this discussion... the more diverse my army will be.
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Special shout out to the Arsenal Chaplin archetype for warpriest.Why does Arsenal Chaplain always get all the love for Warpriests?
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Arsenal Chaplain is not the ONLY good WP archetype.
Its not the ONLY good archetype, but it is REALLY GOOD at what it does.
Weapon training is a a really really good ability if you don't care about increasing the base weapon damage of your primary weapon (above a d6). Advanced weapon training is even more (potential) icing on the cake.Warpriest in general is already good, most archetypes make it even better.
Divine Commander is another really good archetype, but a mount (and potentially mounted combat rules) isn't for everyone.
Kobold Divine Commander Warpriests VMC Sorcerer for the Draconic Bloodline, with Deinonychus Animal Companions is where it's at. Warpriest 10/Dragon Disciple 10 [via Scaled Disciple], and obviously VMC carries all the way through. Two little lizards, RAWR!
There's a really good shield-based Warpriest archetype, too... if I remember correctly. Yes, Arsenal Chaplain is fabulous murberhobo nonsense, I love it... but the more variety I find, the better.
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What classes fill which roles of your holy army?
Even if we cannot agree on the hit dice of the average grunt... who does what... which classes fill which roles in a holy crusade, for you?
How in depth are you trying to get? Just classes, or specific Archetypes?
I would make an order that combined aspects of secular military formations and religious orders alike.
My order’s basic unit would be a lance comprised of three to five Fighters trained and equipped for the mounted charge and horseback archery alike. They would be led by a Paladin, who would be assisted by a Cavalier (Order of the Dragon, Stalwart Standard) and a Divine Hunter Paladin. At a minimum, the Divine Hunter would be able to provide Point Blank Shot to the Fighters, while the Cavalier would be able to provide a single teamwork feat and a number of bonuses.
Four lances would make up a squadron. Each squadron would be commanded by a Paladin, who would be assisted two or three Clerics or Warpriests and a (Demagogue or Faith Singer) Bard. This commander would also have their own personal lance to command.
Two squadrons would make up a company. Each company would be commanded by a Paladin, who would be assisted by three to five Clerics or Warpriests and a (Demagogue or Faith Singer) Bard, AND have their own personal lance to command. In addition, each company would have scouting detachment of five or six Rangers, who would be led by a Divine Hunter Paladin.
There would be ten companies to this order. The Masters of each company would serve as a college subordinate to the Grand Master in charge of them all: a Cleric, Oracle, Paladin, or Warpriest. In addition, the Grand Master would command their own personal company, reinforced with a greater (perhaps 20 percent) number of troops and officers. They would also have additional supernumeraries, such as a dedicated Oracle, a Divine Commander (if the Grand Master isn’t one themselves), a Daring General Cavalier, Fighters to carry out duties such as commander of the camp or quartermaster, a Bard, and so on.
All in all, there would be roughly a thousand holy warriors of one flavor or another in this order. There would be another few hundred non-combatants (Experts) accompanying the order—bowyers, grooms, smiths, etc.—and they would be assigned at the company level and the Grand Master’s personal company.
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I appreciate the detailed response, and I like the archetypes you listed. Our unit breakdown is quite different, and I like that, too. Gives me things to consider.