Hello, friends. Quick question about shields:
Considering RAW, does it take an action to drop a regular shield? It's not clear to me if regular shields are "strapped" to the PC. CRB pg 273 says you need 1 action to "Detach a shield or item strapped to you", but is this text referring only to the bucklers or to all shields?
I would let a player strap a normal shield to their arm. This would help them not lose it, yet it'd also make it an extra action to drop it (which IMO is not worth it). But that'd be atypical, with Nefreet having the typical reading.
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You can hold or strap a shield. I’m not aware of anything that by RAW prevents either.
If you hold it - you can drop it for free but it can be disarmed and is also dropped if you go unconscious.
If you strap it, then you can’t drop it for free - but you don’t drop it if you go unconscious.
You can even hold or strap a buckler. Holding a buckler has the added disadvantage that you can’t use the hand as free hand when not using the buckler.
As GM I rule:
Shield - default held
Buckler - default strapped
This is the most common case and in most situations the most beneficial to a player.
Players (or very special situations - you wake up and grab your buckler) can overrule the default.
I only allow the ‘Schroedinger’s Shield’ aka the player decides only after the fact if it was strapped or held once. If a player insists - I always do X then fine - but I keep memory of that and will rule the same way next time.
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In my view the hold or strapped is a game mastering / playing issue - not a rules issue.
Here is a made up example - for more interesting reading I did create a little bit of a story.
Merisiel was down close to dying, Ezren was down - not in a better shape. So it was up to Ezren and Kyra to take out the Undead Lich. Side by side they fought - shields raised in unison - Kyra's shield blazing from her goddess power (Emblazoned Armament), sword and scimitar striking in unison.
Would they all die here now or could the prevent fate and walk out glorious? Valeros landed a near final blow - that is when disaster struck - the Lich raised his claw and Kyra went down - seriously hit by the Lich.
In game play you want:
A) Valeros to hold the shield - so he can drop it and has a free hand to do battle medicine on Kyra.
B) Kyra to have the shield strapped - so if Valeros is doing battle medicine that she can use a 3-action heal to prevent Merisiel/Ezren from dying and to get urgently needed HP back to the whole party (yes - to make it more dramatic I use emblazoned armor on the shield)
In reality it is likely that neither the player of Valeros nor the player of Kyra even considered if the shield is held or strapped. There is no box on any character sheet (I'm aware off) that specifies if a shield is strapped or held - yet - in this fictitious example it could be the difference between TPK or a memorable story.
That is why my advice is - first time you come up with the situation rule in favor of the player if needed - but after that it sticks. Often player don't want to take advantage of the situation but rather haven't even spend time to consider if it is held or strapped - until it makes a difference.
Yes - in an ideal world you ask the question at the start of a game or tell your GM before the game. But who is perfect as GM or player?
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Bucklers are worn. You would need an Interact action to remove it, and then drop it.
Other shields are held. You just spend the free action to Release.
I believe there is one shield somewhere, or maybe it's a feat, that is written incorrectly, and that's where the arguments stem from.
Which is hilarious, because real bucklers would've been held only, while real shields usually had an arm strap (due to size) as well as a place to hold it with your hand. Normal shields are to big to control without having two points of control. Bucklers get away with due to their small size, which led to you having to (more) actively punch and deflect incoming attacks to block them.
I'm always surprised by the amount of replies my topics get. You've been extremely helpful. Thank you all for the explanation.
Contributor
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The rules for this are unfortunately pretty specific:
Drop an item to the ground - 1 or 2 Hands - Release (Free)
Detach a shield or item strapped to you - 1 Hand - Interact
Even though I concur that in real-life bucklers are held and most other shields are partially (or fully) strapped to the forearm, in 2nd edition, this seems to apply to all shields (and other items strapped to you). In a home-game, though, your GM might change this (and would be 100% rightfully justified in doing so. I might do so in my own games, in fact).
Hope that helps!
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The rules for this are unfortunately pretty specific:
Drop an item to the ground - 1 or 2 Hands - Release (Free)
Detach a shield or item strapped to you - 1 Hand - InteractEven though I concur that in real-life bucklers are held and most other shields are partially (or fully) strapped to the forearm, in 2nd edition, this seems to apply to all shields (and other items strapped to you). In a home-game, though, your GM might change this (and would be 100% rightfully justified in doing so. I might do so in my own games, in fact).
Hope that helps!
That's not inherently true, it could either mean:
detach a shield or detach an item strapped to youor it could mean:
detach a shield strapped to you or an item strapped to you
Both are logical readings of the sentence in English
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I'm not sure why it would use the word 'detach' if it isn't being applied to something that is 'attached'. Being held is not really attached and would better fit under the action Release.
So my vote is for held shields being dropped with Release and strapped shields having to be detached with an Interact action.
I'm not sure if it makes a difference if the Interact action to unstrap the shield would also cause it to drop to the ground or not since even if it doesn't, dropping it afterwards with a separate Release action is a free action.
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What do you mean for Shield Augmentation? When it’s talking about attached weapons, it means weapons that are attached to the shield, not the shield being attached to your arm. You can’t combine shield augmentation with a shield boss or shield spikes. That’s all that is referring to. I don’t see anything else in that item that looks relevant to whether or not a shield is held or strapped on.
EDIT: Ah, do you mean because you can add thrown?
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Well, that might be true in your "real" world, but why does that make any difference here?
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Well, that might be true in your "real" world, but why does that make any difference here?
because real world item analogues have to try harder not to break immersion.
Shields are strapped in my game due to the rule mentioned above and because shields simply couldn't be effectively used without being strapped in my game. If the designers say otherwise the I would change it for the sake of the players.
Viking doesm't change anything as it is talking about improvised shields and even then, equipping not removing.
Augmenting with throwing can be chalked up to magic and oversight.
But yeah, what I wouldn't give for a sensible buckler.
Shields should probably be easy to drop. From what I can see most shields were held with one hand and easy to drop.
I know the idea behind the buckler is it is a small shield strapped to your wrist that a bowman could use while still being able to use their bow. Not sure how real that is though.
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Shields historically were not strapped to your arm...
They were strapped to your shoulder, this is called a "guige". Shields are really heavy, so they had shoulder straps to help support the weight while they have a small loop so you can hold and position it. Soldiers would also hang it from their backs when marching or retreating, since holding it aloft for hours at a time is exhausting (looking at you Defend exploration).
If you want to use historical references in your arguments please do some research first. Here's what I'm talking about: https://www.degueulesetdargent.fr/2017/03/02/shield-straps-and-holding-of-t he-shield-in-the-early-13th-century/
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Well, learning about all of these irrelevant terms used in other worlds is mildly fascinating. But the fact that these people can't agree about what the real names and usages of these items are makes me glad that I have a consistent definition of the things that I actually use. When I pick up a 'longsword' for example, I know that it is used in one hand. Because that is what a long one-handed sword is called here.
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Well, learning about all of these irrelevant terms used in other worlds is mildly fascinating. But the fact that these people can't agree about what the real names and usages of these items are makes me glad that I have a consistent definition of the things that I actually use. When I pick up a 'longsword' for example, I know that it is used in one hand. Because that is what a long one-handed sword is called here.
Right?
Golarion's uniformity of weapon terms is truly amazing. If we were to draw from a single tradition from Earth, we wouldn't find such harmonization, much less from a range of eras and places.Gygax seemed to know his warfare, given his pre-DnD history of simulating real world battles, and all that specificity in weapon speed and how each of dozens of weapons interacts w/ different armor types (which I don't recall anybody using!). So I'm of a mind that Gygax erred on purpose, likely for his audience, so you get a dagger which people recognize, then a sword which is short, a sword which is long, and a sword so big it takes two hands. Hmm...what should we name these so all these college kids I play with understand w/o a history & nomenclature lesson?
As for PF2 shields, it seems pretty obvious that they're balanced for mechanics rather than simulation. You can have a buckler, only +1 AC, but you get an option for a free hand; or you can have +2 AC and no option for a free hand. Obviously w/ the buckler then it'd need to be strapped on to do that. And the APG clarified to us (via the abilities others noted above) a shield doesn't need to be strapped to be used.
And as I wrote before, it seems to me that one could not strap the buckler if you wanted, and not get that free hand option; and that a person could strap on a shield, and require one extra action to drop/stow it (rather than the one extra action to pick it up which might occur if you simply held it).
Since you guys brought it up, I have two questions about shield augmentation. Hope you don't mind.
1 - Is an augmented shield is considered a weapon?
For reference: "a shield augmentation can be etched with weapon runes, much like a shield boss or shield spikes but doesn't otherwise alter your shield's statistics." (GB 104).
2 - The last part of the text is confusing to me. Since the runes can't alter the shield's statistics (like fundamental runes do), does this mean I can only etch property runes to an augmented shield?
My understanding is that the shield augmentations (including shield boss, shield spikes, and other such things) are what are considered weapons. So they can be etched with whatever runes are suitable for those weapon types. The shield itself is not affected by the runes, though the shield bash attack is.
So if the question is 'am I armed when wielding an augmented shield', then, yes. In fact, I think that even weilding an un-augmented shield would be treated as being armed. So things like 'wielding a 1-handed weapon' would still work.
Also, you can only etch a number property runes equal to the value of its potency rune. So you have to be able to etch fundamental runes onto the shield augmentation before you can etch property runes on it.
My understanding is that the shield augmentations (including shield boss, shield spikes, and other such things) are what are considered weapons. So they can be etched with whatever runes are suitable for those weapon types.
I Agree.
So if the question is 'am I armed when wielding an augmented shield', then, yes. In fact, I think that even weilding an un-augmented shield would be treated as being armed. So things like 'wielding a 1-handed weapon' would still work.
There is a great argument against considering a non-augmented shield a weapon in an older thread.
The discussion is basically based on the following text: "A shield bash is not actually a weapon, but a maneuver in which you thrust or swing your shield to hit your foe with an impromptu attack". (CRB 286)
Here's the link: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs431p6?Shields-as-weapons#1
Also, you can only etch a number property runes equal to the value of its potency rune. So you have to be able to etch fundamental runes onto the shield augmentation before you can etch property runes on it.
You're totally right. Thank you for reminding me.
So if the question is 'am I armed when wielding an augmented shield', then, yes. In fact, I think that even weilding an un-augmented shield would be treated as being armed. So things like 'wielding a 1-handed weapon' would still work.There is a great argument against considering a non-augmented shield a weapon in an older thread.
The discussion is basically based on the following text: "A shield bash is not actually a weapon, but a maneuver in which you thrust or swing your shield to hit your foe with an impromptu attack". (CRB 286)
Here's the link:
Hmm... Yeah, a bit of a gray area. I wouldn't allow quick draw with a shield. Double slice is questionable. But for things that trigger differently for unarmed attack vs. weapon attack, I would definitely count the shield as a weapon.
Hmm... Yeah, a bit of a gray area. I wouldn't allow quick draw with a shield. Double slice is questionable. But for things that trigger differently for unarmed attack vs. weapon attack, I would definitely count the shield as a weapon.
I agree. But what about using Quick Draw to strike with a shield boss attached to a shield or an augmented shield?
I think we can agree that these are considered weapons (since you can etch weapon runes to augmented shields). The thing is, they are attached to the shield. Therefore, you would also be drawing the shield in the same motion.
Like you said, It's all a big messy gray area.
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Hmm... Yeah, a bit of a gray area. I wouldn't allow quick draw with a shield. Double slice is questionable. But for things that trigger differently for unarmed attack vs. weapon attack, I would definitely count the shield as a weapon.I agree. But what about using Quick Draw to strike with a shield boss attached to a shield or an augmented shield?
Personally, I wouldn't allow that. But that is my ruling on it - not something that I could say is actually specified in the rules.
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No Quick draw IMO because "You must be wielding or wearing the item the weapon is attached to in order to attack with it."
And Quick Draw does not let you use the Interact action to draw the item the weapon is attached to.
I think you're right. Quick draw allows the PC to draw a weapon and strike with it and the shield by itself is not a weapon. So, basically the shield boss (and augmented shield) can only be considered a weapon when you are in fact wielding it - since in RAW a shield is not considered a weapon.
But like breithauptclan said, it seems reasonable to allow an augmented shield to be used in actions that require the PC to be wielding a melee weapon - like double slice, dual-handed assault, lunge, twin takedown and many others.
Thank you.
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I rule it as any shield can be either held or worn, worn means you don't drop it when you fall unconscious or are otherwise forced to drop your held items and held means you can drop it or change hands easier.
This allows people to envision using shields however makes sense to them, and ultimately isn't going to break the game one way or another.
I think I might gloss over that bit about Quick Draw not working on shields in my games (though donning it would still take the same amount of time). I've seen a guy at the medieval fair whip a shield off his back and uppercut a guy in the jaw with it like it was a two-handed baseball bat before donning it in a more traditional fashion.
I'd hate to deny that level of awesome to my players.