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Some people call it "confusing". Some people call it "contradictory". It's fine if neither camp understands the other. That's just semantics.
What matters is that Eidolons need some errata to clarify the point, and until that happens, this debate will keep resurfacing, as there is no clear answer.
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I think the intent behind the Eidolon's rules on items are to prevent a summoner from stacking bonuses on an Eidolon, while also keeping the summoner from having to buy two copies of a lot of pieces of loot.
Since Eidolons already can't really use weapons, since they lack those proficiencies, I wonder if the rule wouldn't be better seen as something like:
- An Eidolon can't attune items without the Eidolon trait, shares attunements for certain items with the Summoner, and can't use items that need to be attuned otherwise.
- An Eidolon cannot use other magic items in encounter mode.
- An Eidolon trained in a skill can use tools required by the skill (e.g. Healer's tools) unless their morphology would prevent it somehow.
It doesn't really seem necessary to comment on what items an Eidolon can or can't use in downtime or in exploration mode. If it can hold an oar, it can row an oar after all.
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I think the intent behind the Eidolon's rules on items are to prevent a summoner from stacking bonuses on an Eidolon, while also keeping the summoner from having to buy two copies of a lot of pieces of loot.
Stacking bonuses is not possible as the bonuses the Eidolon gets from the Summoners items are still item bonuses. But Paizo have fairly often got themselves into rule difficulties by unncessarily doubling up on rules elswhere too.
You do only need one copy of most items. So in that sense they met your aims.
The problem is the specific skill actions that require actual kits or items to be used. That, and some very loose wording.
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Been looking into eidolons and summoners more as of late, and I gotta' say, I completely agree with the camp that says eidolons can use mundane items.
The alternative is just a huge can of worms that I'm not willing to open.
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The two sections that discuss how it works contradict one another, that's the problem. With one saying Magic Items and the other one, the Eidolon Trait, simply states the restriction applies to "Items" in general.
It's going to come down to table variation and probably will stay this way given that Paizo seems to have taken the approach that it is better to leave ambiguous rules as-is and let each table decide though if you're dealing with PFS you would almost certainly want to look into what kind of ruling they have made on the subject before trying to build anything around the concept.
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Man that is such a corporatocratic way of addressing the issue.
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Just reviving this old thread to add some more interesting info about how the designers looks like to deal with non-pc using items.
The Battlecry book introduced the Captain Archetype and the concept of followers.
In general, they are basically intelligent humanoids companions that have such item restriction:
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The kit includes the follower’s weapons, armor, and other items that they require to perform the actions listed in their statistics. Followers can’t wear or use items other than those in their kit, nor can they share equipment with the PCs.
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And more important, this note about items:
Followers are NPCs who are designed to be balanced with other companion options, such as animal companions, and to maintain their own necessary gear without cost to the PCs. As such, they have the minion trait, and they can only use the actions listed under follower actions and in their stat block.
Since followers are intelligent people, these abstractions can potentially lead to unusual circumstances at the table. For example, some groups might find it odd that followers can’t Activate an Item to use magic item abilities or feed potions to PCs. However, activated items are balanced around the idea that a PC is spending their own actions to use them. For example, magic items with a 2-action activation are balanced around the idea that they can’t be used on the same turn as any other 2-action spell or activity. If your group would rather have an NPC companion that can take 3 actions per round and use items, consider asking your GM to add an NPC to the party, counting them as an extra PC for the purposes of XP and treasure.
I know that eidolons are not minions nor companions and doesn't have to follow the same principles, yet they probably were built around this same context of 'if it is not a full character with its own actions and full independent gear set (what would require an adjustment into XP and treasure budget) so this character also wouldn't able to use items at all except for a small restricted set made for them'.
The only thing that I really miss into eidolons is that follower medic includes healer’s toolkit into its kit just to allow it to still able to use all its skill actions.
I hope that in a summoners' remaster Paizo would fix allowing the eidolons to be able to use skills' items or 'share' them like they share the weapons items bonuses or remove its requirements when used by an eidolon.
Anyway, about that strange interpretation that eidolons could use magic items ignoring the eidolon trait restriction. I'm now more sure that this just a wrong interpretation, and I hope that they remove the magic word in a remastered summoner version to avoid keeping this confusion.
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I'm sure by 2024 we'll get a reprint of the book and the errata that comes with it... :P
I was being a bit facetious/snarky but even my sarcastic estimation was missed. Paizo doesn't disappoint with not answering basic questions. :P
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Followers are NPCs who are designed to be balanced with other companion options, such as animal companions
Eidolons, on the other hand, are not intended to be balanced with other companion options such as animal companions.
So I don't think that this revival is all that useful for shedding light on which items Eidolons are allowed to use.
The idea is not about the item that they can use, but the very concept that Paizo put in the note explaining that they really restricts it to avoid unexpected interactions.
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It's easily one of the weakest points in Paizo's rule set / game design philosophy.
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My party regularly uses the eidolon to open doors. Last Saturday, they failed to detect an alarm spell on the door, which raises some weird questions.
Can an eidolon open doors? Can it use keys?
Can it open a door enchanted by alarm? Can it trigger an alarm?
If I replace a regular doorknob with a phantasmal doorknob (TV PG 127), can it open the door? Does matter if it's in encounter mode or combat? Does it matter who knows about the magic item?
Loaded dice are nonmagical, but luckless dice are cursed. Luckless dice appear to be loaded. Can an eidolon be subject to a curse? Can it use the cursed item at all? Could a party use their eidolon as a curse detector? If the eidolon becomes cursed, it can't abandon the item casually. What happens if it is unsummoned?
Can an eidolon open doors?
They are listed under environment and Interact is to "use your hand or hands to manipulate an object or the terrain so, IMO, I'd give them a pass on this one. If the DM sides with it being an item, then no: however, they could always Force Open the door instead of opening it.
Can it use keys?
Keys are items without the Eidolon trait so, IMO, no.
Can it trigger an alarm?
Alarms aren't used by those that set them off but by the person setting them.
If I replace a regular doorknob with a phantasmal doorknob (TV PG 127), can it open the door? Does matter if it's in encounter mode or combat? Does it matter who knows about the magic item?
Type of doorknob wouldn't matter, nor would mode of play, IMO.
Loaded dice are nonmagical, but luckless dice are cursed. Luckless dice appear to be loaded. Can an eidolon be subject to a curse? Can it use the cursed item at all? Could a party use their eidolon as a curse detector? If the eidolon becomes cursed, it can't abandon the item casually. What happens if it is unsummoned?
Loaded dice are items without the Eidolon trait so they can't use them and use is what triggers the curse.
I think remembering to cross out "cannot use magic items" and replace with "cannot Activate" helps a whole lot.
Even familiars can Reload crossbows, and eidolons can too*. I think we have to bite the bullet and RaI edit that sidebar's "cannot wear or use magic items" into "cannot Activate items" ["cannot wear or use another's worn magical equipment"]
Else, like with the mundane vs magic doorknob, you can also make an example "reload my crossbow" problem. At L1, it's fine, but as soon as you put a rune into the same crossbow, it's magic, and now the eidolon's fingers can't work the mechanism. Meanwhile, the Tiny spellslime familiar is fine to reload the magic crossbow.
I'm also rediscovering that there is 0 Activate ban on eidolons anywhere, it's just that "use magic items" line. Eidolons are not companions nor minions. So right now, Eidolons RaW can use (Activate) alch items.
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And this "cannot Activate" substitution does match with the new guidance in the Captain archetype's followers about minions breaking the power curve via item Activations.
Though the minion restrictions are still kinda [very much] not applicable, as Summoner is built around the player being 2 creatures at once, so it's not even the same thing. So GMs are imo totally fine to cross out "no Activate" clause entirely and allow eidolons to Activate non-invested things like alch items
Well, I'm already changing my mind a bit.
I don't think it's actually appropriate to apply the companion Activate ban to Eidolons anymore.
Non-magic Activate only survived the current mess of RaW by sheer luck, but there really is no present Activate ban, and that doesn't seem to have caused any balance issues.
Your eidolon can't wear or use magic items, except for items with the eidolon trait. An eidolon can have up to two items invested. Your eidolon's link to you means it can benefit from certain magic items invested by you.
This entire sidebar is talking about wearable equipment & invested gear.
In context, it seems like it was just sloppy writing for it to use language that could restrict an Eidolon more generally.If the devs wanted Ediolons to be unable to use consumables, I don't think there is any way to read that text in context and think the RaI was attempting to put a consumable (and Activate) ban upon Eidolons.
I do think attempts to loophole the "no wearable equipment" thing should get shut down (such as some non-magical wearable, like the clockwork stuff), but that's a different question.
I think it is actually the RaI for Eidolons to be able to Activate alchemical elixirs, *and* magical potions or other magic consumables. It is just too easy to invoke the "no Activate" ban already written for minions, and too big a question to leave as "yes by accidental omission."
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Unless Paizo reworks the text to make it seem like Eidolons are supposed to be restricted like minions, or adds an entirely separate rule on "Eidolons and consumables" I'm surprised by how solid this "consumables are fine, actually" looks right now.
Given the above, I am confused that a key is an item, and a doorknob is an item, but the eidolon can use one and not the other to preform the same action.
Only if you take poorly worded rules text about eidolons wearing gear to apply to their ability to interact with their hands/grabbers in a general sense.
And I think it's safe to say the devs never intended for eidolons to have some kind of allergy to magic, lol.
As eidolons can do the basic actions, imo that absolutely includes Interact: Activate. The intended "no go zone" is for equipment-based powers, so no Ring of the Ram, no Affixing a talisman, etc. (which does prevent a lot of Activates, but also keeps many, like potions, in the green)
Given the above, I am confused that a key is an item, and a doorknob is an item, but the eidolon can use one and not the other to preform the same action.
The issue is that the magic doorknob isn't being used as a magic item or an independent item at all: the normal use of the Phantasmal Doorknob is as a spellheart attached to armor/weapons. In your question, you tried to sidestep it but it becomes part of the door instead of its own item you activate/use in your example: you are opening the door, not Activating the knob and that is the difference IMO.
There is a difference between holding and using an item for instance: the same applies here. you can hold a two handed sword in one hand, you just can't swing it. For the knob, you can turn it to open the door, but you can use it as a spellheart. Being unable to use doesn't mean you can't Interact with it.
I'm still unclear on cursed items and eidolons.
Cursed depends on how the curse activates. If it's picking it up or opening it they can get the curse but if it's activating it then no.
This entire sidebar is talking about wearable equipment & invested gear.
The issue has always been that two other sections restrict item use and make no mention of magic [meaning more sections do not read this way].
eidolon trait [SoM 57]: "An item with this trait can be used or worn by an eidolon only, and an eidolon can't use items that don't have this trait."
Key terms, summoner [SoM 51]: "An item with this trait can be used or worn by an eidolon only, and an eidolon can't use items that don't have this trait."
Since there is no conflict in restrictions, IE magic items are still items meaning all sections can be true, this leaves the RAW at no item use. It's not an uncommon houserule to just look at the 'Gear and your Eidolon' and pretend the other sections read magic items though.
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I'm still unclear on cursed items and eidolons.Cursed depends on how the curse activates. If it's picking it up or opening it they can get the curse but if it's activating it then no.
Many cursed items can’t be discarded. Some use magic to fuse to the wielder, making it impossible to remove the item, while others attune to their owner and return even if discarded. (This section uses the term “fuse” to describe either situation.)
If an Eidolon is cursed and dismissed, what happens to the item?
Given the above, I am confused that a key is an item, and a doorknob is an item, but the eidolon can use one and not the other to preform the same action.The issue is that the magic doorknob isn't being used as a magic item or an independent item at all: the normal use of the Phantasmal Doorknob is as a spellheart attached to armor/weapons. In your question, you tried to sidestep it but it becomes part of the door instead of its own item you activate/use in your example: you are opening the door, not Activating the knob and that is the difference IMO.
There is a difference between holding and using an item for instance: the same applies here. you can hold a two handed sword in one hand, you just can't swing it. For the knob, you can turn it to open the door, but you can use it as a spellheart. Being unable to use doesn't mean you can't Interact with it.
Alright, how about a ladder? It's equipment, not terrain. https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2729 So eidolon can carry a ladder, but can it set one up? Or use it? Can it unfold a folding ladder? https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1396
Many cursed items can’t be discarded. Some use magic to fuse to the wielder, making it impossible to remove the item, while others attune to their owner and return even if discarded. (This section uses the term “fuse” to describe either situation.)If an Eidolon is cursed and dismissed, what happens to the item?
That was explained above in that they can't USE the item. In your quote is says "fuse to the wielder" and Wielding means "When wielding an item, you’re not just carrying it around—you’re ready to use it." This means the eidolon never has to worry about that kind of item since they can never use/wield it. there are curses they activate simply by moving into an area or moving an abject, things an eidolon can actually do. They can also only attune to items with the eidolon trait, so no worries there either unless it's a cursed item with the eidolon trait.
Alright, how about a ladder? It's equipment, not terrain. https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2729 So eidolon can carry a ladder, but can it set one up? Or use it? Can it unfold a folding ladder? https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1396
This is a similar situation to the door.
IMO:Set one up? no as it requires wielding type use.
Climb one? Sure. We aren't talking about wielding one. It isn't using a ladder any more than you are stairs for instance.
The key here is use is equated with wielding/wearing/activating [ie, actively manipulating the item] in the rules. You can't bring in a broader usage of use, like using a rope to climb, or the eidolon literally be unable to do anything as it has to use air to breathe and use the floor to walk, ect. So tossing a grappling hook would be a no no but climbing up one should be fine.
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That was explained above in that they can't USE the item. In your quote is says "fuse to the wielder" and Wielding means "When wielding an item, you’re not just carrying it around—you’re ready to use it." This means the eidolon never has to worry about that kind of item since they can never use/wield it. there are curses they activate simply by moving into an area or moving an abject, things an eidolon can actually do. They can also only attune to items with the eidolon trait, so no worries there either unless it's a cursed item with the eidolon trait.Many cursed items can’t be discarded. Some use magic to fuse to the wielder, making it impossible to remove the item, while others attune to their owner and return even if discarded. (This section uses the term “fuse” to describe either situation.)If an Eidolon is cursed and dismissed, what happens to the item?
The Stone of Weight fuses after being carried for one minute. https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=608
The Stone of Weight fuses after being carried for one minute. https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=608
Ok. That's fall under 'curses that activate by moving or entering an area', something the Eidolon can do. As far as the Stone, the description explains it; "It reappears in your possessions within 1 minute if you discard it". So if one gets the Stone, 1 min after summoned, the Stone shows up on it.
ugh, how the hell did this not get an errata yet?
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ugh, how the hell did this not get an errata yet?
Because it really only causes problems on the rules forum. Essentially we are quibbling over edge cases.
In an actual game, the players are going to create a ruling that makes sense and allows the character to be playable and fun and run with that. And pretty much any ruling that they come up with is going to be reasonably balanced.
ugh, how the hell did this not get an errata yet?
Because it really only causes problems on the rules forum. Essentially we are quibbling over edge cases.
In an actual game, the players are going to create a ruling that makes sense and allows the character to be playable and fun and run with that. And pretty much any ruling that they come up with is going to be reasonably balanced.
Pretty much. Every group makes up their own houserule for how it works and goes with it.
Still, Trip.H has a point. It IS trivially easy to add the word "magic" into 2 places or removing the word magic in 1 section. It's low hanging fruit that shouldn't need much if any debate about it.
ugh, how the hell did this not get an errata yet?
Because it really only causes problems on the rules forum. Essentially we are quibbling over edge cases.
In an actual game, the players are going to create a ruling that makes sense and allows the character to be playable and fun and run with that. And pretty much any ruling that they come up with is going to be reasonably balanced.
Except when players show up with a different expectation of what the ruling is than the GM, it does create problems at the table. I've seen this happen.
Eventually everyone makes a ruling and then moves on, but that's true of most things that need errata. That doesn't mean they don't need errata.
SoM was just an extremely badly supported book post-release with even admitted issues (like Inner Radiance Torrent scaling and Arcane Cascade not working RAW) taking several years before they were admitted until someone got around to fixing them.
So this one never getting sorted out is unfortunately entirely on-brand.
ugh, how the hell did this not get an errata yet?
Because it really only causes problems on the rules forum. Essentially we are quibbling over edge cases.
In an actual game, the players are going to create a ruling that makes sense and allows the character to be playable and fun and run with that. And pretty much any ruling that they come up with is going to be reasonably balanced.
Except when players show up with a different expectation of what the ruling is than the GM, it does create problems at the table. I've seen this happen.
Eventually everyone makes a ruling and then moves on, but that's true of most things that need errata. That doesn't mean they don't need errata.
SoM was just an extremely badly supported book post-release with even admitted issues (like Inner Radiance Torrent scaling and Arcane Cascade not working RAW) taking several years before they were admitted until someone got around to fixing them.
So this one never getting sorted out is unfortunately entirely on-brand.
Exactly.
I'm not saying that this doesn't need errata. It does. Just like the rules for Minions being given commands while not in combat needs errata.
I'm explaining why this bit of rules ambiguity hasn't gotten errata yet. I would rather see errata for how getting Stunned 1 during your own turn works. That seems like a much bigger problem when a player and a GM have different ideas of how it is supposed to work.
I'm explaining why this bit of rules ambiguity hasn't gotten errata yet. I would rather see errata for how getting Stunned 1 during your own turn works. That seems like a much bigger problem when a player and a GM have different ideas of how it is supposed to work.
Imo this is a bit too much of an apples oranges comparison to not comment on. Eidolon item rules being incomplete and even partially contradictory is not comparable to Stunned.
Stunned has full RaW on what happens. But many players & GMs simply do not like the outcome, and want errata to change the game to conform to their vibes.
Like with any other Condition, you apply the new penalties and effects right after the condition is placed upon the creature.
That's really the entire "debate." Does a GM follow the rules, or do they decide that Stunned works differently, because they say/want it to be so.
No one argues it's RaW for a PC to do a Stride after being Immobilized partway through their turn.
Imo, more GMs need to get comfortable with houseruling. As in, knowing the RaW, but deciding it would make for a better game if ____ happened instead.
While errata of that type can happen, and is important, those are changes to existing complete rules/abilities and are not categorically comparable to errata for the ~"missing mechanics" type issues.
I'm explaining why this bit of rules ambiguity hasn't gotten errata yet. I would rather see errata for how getting Stunned 1 during your own turn works. That seems like a much bigger problem when a player and a GM have different ideas of how it is supposed to work.Imo this is a bit too much of an apples oranges comparison to not comment on. Eidolon item rules being incomplete and even partially contradictory is not comparable to Stunned.
While that's fair, it also doesn't really invalidate the point that I am making. You are nitpicking the example rather than addressing the statement.
There are other problems in the rules to handle. Things that are causing actual balance problems. Things that are ambiguous enough that wildly different conclusions are being drawn and even PFS games are having a noticeably different experience because of.
This particular problem regarding Eidolons has devolved into quibbling about whether an Eidolon can use a doorknob or not.
That is why this errata is not at the top of the queue.
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This particular problem regarding Eidolons has devolved into quibbling about whether an Eidolon can use a doorknob or not.
To be fair, it's actually a valid question based on the wording of various sections and can have "wildly different conclusions. It can be from 'can't interact with any object' to 'just can use some magic items.'
That is why this errata is not at the top of the queue.
I don't know that this is true: Minions out of encounter mode, instances of damage and other things have been questions since the game started and can impact all levels of play while causing issues and they still aren't fixed yet either. Some problems they just don't seem to want to fix.