Hi everyone, I am playing in a game of Rise of the Runelords, and we are lacking a divine character.
At level 4, I am playing a strange mix between Brawler/Fighter/Monk2, but was thinking if I could take a different path from here onward, by changing classes to either.... Cleric, or Sacred Fist (since my character has ties to the church in Sandpoint), or... Inquisitor? To try and shore up some of our lacking divine power.
As I see it, a straight up change to cleric (don’t think there is any archetype with martial arts inclination?) would be the best option - I know my character would be at a serious disadvantage as far as caster level goes, but he would have an average combat chassis (probably will not scale very well as he levels up, because monk abilities will not progress), while being a full divine caster.
What do you think? Any ideas on how to go about this one? I could try and push to scratch the character and create another, but I purposefully do not want to do that. I want the group to continue forward organically, even if the mechanical options before us are not the optimal. But it would be great not to cripple myself too much in the process :D
What is your statline and race?
Hi Wonderstell - he is an half-orc.
Stats are pretty good :
Str 18
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 16
Cha 12
Why do you need "a divine character"? I presume you mean divine caster...
That is correct Derklord - it was just some creative writing :D
Hmm, have you considered a Warsighted Oracle? with the Ascetic Mystery and the Hunger Curse? If you pair this with Dual-Cursed archetype and the Plagued Curse, you have a fairly robust chassis to build off of. The revelations: Ascetic Armor, Fleet, Martial Discipline, and Oracular Spellstrike, will be most useful for you.
If you are going to be allowed to swap classes, see if your GM will allow you to swap that WIS and CHA score. You might be able to multi class into a Water Dancer Monk later on (4 level max) in order to make further use of your CHA score and get a Ki pool.
Hi Wonderstell - he is an half-orc.
Stats are pretty good :
Str 18
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 16
Cha 12
That Wis score would allow you to enter a 6th level caster class without issue. Warpriest works fine although I'd avoid the Sacred Fist archetype as it's generally considered a worse unarmed combatant than vanilla Warpriest, and in your case you'd have a lot of class ability overlap which makes Sacred Fist even less worthwhile.
Inquisitor (and Cleric) has the advantage of Domains. The Freedom subdomain would give a lot of condition removal separate from your available spells.
And while some streamlining might be in order, rather than scratching the entire character you could retrain some levels as a way for your character to reinvent themselves after getting a spiritual awakening.
The big problem I see is that you already have 4 levels of other classes. So even if you switch to a divine caster you are going to be 4 levels behind. If you go into a 6th level caster class that puts you spell casting even further behind. At 5th level a cleric is getting 3rd level spells, but you would be getting 1st level spells. The divine power you will be gaining is not going to be significant vs a level appropriate encounter.
Most classes take a few levels to start to develop and that usually happens around 5th level. At that point the full casters are getting more powerful spells, and the 6th level casters are usually gaining some of their better class features. You also usually have enough renewable resources that those start to become more reliable. Your character will reach that point at 9th level when most characters are starting to come into their full power.
If it were a one or two level dip you could probably overcome that, but four levels seems to be a bit too much. If you do this it is highly likely that your character is not going to have the things your party needs. If you use the retraining rules to convert some of the other classes to the new classes that might work.
What do you actually want from levels in a Divine class? With 4 levels in other classes, your spells and other class features are going to be really weak...
I was thinking some healing, some condition removal, and some buffs :D
Hmm, have you considered a Warsighted Oracle? with the Ascetic Mystery and the Hunger Curse? If you pair this with Dual-Cursed archetype and the Plagued Curse, you have a fairly robust chassis to build off of. The revelations: Ascetic Armor, Fleet, Martial Discipline, and Oracular Spellstrike, will be most useful for you.
If you are going to be allowed to swap classes, see if your GM will allow you to swap that WIS and CHA score. You might be able to multi class into a Water Dancer Monk later on (4 level max) in order to make further use of your CHA score and get a Ki pool.
That is a lot to mull over DeathlessOne, thank you for the information. I will go through the details, but wanted to keep things... Simpler? If that makes sense?
That Wis score would allow you to enter a 6th level caster class without issue. Warpriest works fine although I'd avoid the Sacred Fist archetype as it's generally considered a worse unarmed combatant than vanilla Warpriest, and in your case you'd have a lot of class ability overlap which makes Sacred Fist even less worthwhile.
Inquisitor (and Cleric) has the advantage of Domains. The Freedom subdomain would give a lot of condition removal separate from your available spells.
And while some streamlining might be in order, rather than scratching the entire character you could retrain some levels as a way for your character to reinvent themselves after getting a spiritual awakening.
I would like to stay as faithful as possible to the character concept - he started out as a brawler in the streets, and he has began his path to recovery in Sandpoint, slowly learning what it feels like to be needed.
As for mechanics, why is there such overlap between Sacred Fist and Monk? I would think Sacred Fist just builds on similar abilities, continuing to increase unarmed damage and AC, etc? I am not opposed at all to the Inquisitor or cleric idea - do you see any archetype that may help me continue unarmed, and still hold my own on the front line?
The big problem I see is that you already have 4 levels of other classes. So even if you switch to a divine caster you are going to be 4 levels behind. If you go into a 6th level caster class that puts you spell casting even further behind. At 5th level a cleric is getting 3rd level spells, but you would be getting 1st level spells. The divine power you will be gaining is not going to be significant vs a level appropriate encounter.
Most classes take a few levels to start to develop and that usually happens around 5th level. At that point the full casters are getting more powerful spells, and the 6th level casters are usually gaining some of their better class features. You also usually have enough renewable resources that those start to become more reliable. Your character will reach that point at 9th level when most characters are starting to come into their full power.
If it were a one or two level dip you could probably overcome that, but four levels seems to be a bit too much. If you do this it is highly likely that your character is not going to have the things your party needs. If you use the retraining rules to convert some of the other classes to the new classes that might work.
Perfectly understood, but seeing as I am not a powergamer, and I am actually trying to avoid getting too strong, what if we look at it the other way around? Am I losing that much from my martial chassis? In exchange for what may be relevant divine spells, etc?
Iroran Paladin might work if you are adding levels to existing levels. Better might be the Disciple of Wholeness archetype of the Monk class (chained or unchained), as it would not require levels in yet another class. Of course, you would need to gain at least two levels before you get any real healing ability.
Sacred Fist Warpriest works best if you are allowed to do a complete rebuild (converting all levels to warpriest levels), as I get the idea that you want to retain the unarmed/unarmored combatant theme from your monk levels.
But if you are given the opportunity to retrain away any of your existing class levels, you should seriously consider taking it.
That is correct Derklord - it was just some creative writing :D
My question was under the presumption that you meant divine caster.
What do you actually want from levels in a Divine class? With 4 levels in other classes, your spells and other class features are going to be really weak...I was thinking some healing, some condition removal, and some buffs :D
I repeat my question: Why do you need "a divine character"?
HP healing is done with wands. Divine casters are actually not that good at buffs (usually at least). And while some divine casters are the best classes for condition removal, a) not all divine casters are good at it and b) a couple other classes can do it, too.
What are the other party members?
Perfectly understood, but seeing as I am not a powergamer, and I am actually trying to avoid getting too strong
It's not necessarily about being strong, but about being able to properly do things.
I would like to stay as faithful as possible to the character concept - he started out as a brawler in the streets, and he has began his path to recovery in Sandpoint, slowly learning what it feels like to be needed.
As for mechanics, why is there such overlap between Sacred Fist and Monk? I would think Sacred Fist just builds on similar abilities, continuing to increase unarmed damage and AC, etc? I am not opposed at all to the Inquisitor or cleric idea - do you see any archetype that may help me continue unarmed, and still hold my own on the front line?
The Sacred Fist's flurry is a worse version of the normal flurry, and you'd need to take at least 8 levels of Sacred Fist for it to become arguably better than the flurry you got from your monk level(s). And the normal Warpriest already has scaling weapon damage (albeit a bit slower) so getting monk progression isn't that exciting. Especially since you're also missing out on the swift action enhancement bonus buffing that you'd normally get. And Weapon Focus. Since your monk level already gives you flurry and Wis-to-AC there isn't much to gain from taking Sacred Fist.
As for Inquisitor, you won't really need an archetype. Buy some handwraps and you'll be able to Bane your unarmed strikes easily. Might want to take the Additional Traits feat for Magical Knack and Fate's Favored, though.
There is a big difference e between getting too strong and not being able to pull your weight. If the reason you need a divine caster is your party lacks access to things like condition removal spells or other needed resources switching to a class that is not going to grant them for 5 levels really does not help, By the time you gain access to the spells you currently need your party will probably need access to other more powerful spells. Your character is always going to be a day late and a dollar short.
You asked if this would cripple your character too much. In all honesty the answer is yes. Many of the divine spells you need have to make caster level checks and if you are 4 levels behind the chances of your doing that are not good.
Retraining all your levels to a sacred fist warpriest sounds like the best idea. You would still retain some unarmed combat ability and gain what you are looking for.
Derklord is on the right track asking about the need for a divine character. I would rephrase the question to what do you need from a divine character? Without knowing what you need a divine character for, it is really hard to give you and real advice.
Ask your GM for a holy quest to retrain your levels to Warpriest/Cleric/Oracle or Inqusitor. Paladin is more difficult as you properbly also need to shift your view of the world to LG.
This one took me back to the good old days - nice one Khan ;)
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@All: As I do not wish to retrain, or rebuild, or re-shuffle, I think I have a somewhat clearer picture of what my options can be, to build on top of the character I have at the moment.
Thank you everyone for the feedback!
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Ask your GM for a holy quest to retrain your levels to Warpriest/Cleric/Oracle or Inqusitor. Paladin is more difficult as you properbly also need to shift your view of the world to LG.This one took me back to the good old days - nice one Khan ;)
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@All: As I do not wish to retrain, or rebuild, or re-shuffle, I think I have a somewhat clearer picture of what my options can be, to build on top of the character I have at the moment.
Thank you everyone for the feedback!
Remember that just 1 level dip in a divine caster opens up for wands and scrolls, which could be enough for condition removal.
I recommend cleric with a strong 1st level domain power like growth (swift enlarge person) or Oracle with a strong Mystery like Battle or Time.
That is a lot to mull over DeathlessOne, thank you for the information. I will go through the details, but wanted to keep things... Simpler? If that makes sense?
Ah, well. I was just attempting to offer you a way to keep some of the martial artist flavor while getting you access to the divine magic you wanted. If retraining isn't an option, than I agree with the others. Have someone make use of the Use Magic Device skill and prepare to spend a decent amount on consumables to cover your needs.
The first question is, will your GM allow you to retrain class levels?
If yes, then retraining all your class levels to either Warpriest or Inquisitor (if you want to keep martial capabilities) or to Cleric (although I find clerics rather boring) if you want to focus on condition removal, healing, and other traditional cleric roles.
I think the main thing a group needs with a divine caster is condition removal and buffing, and the 3 classes I mentioned can do that to different extents.
If you can't retrain your class levels...it's honestly not going to even be worth it to try. By the time you get the spells you need/want it will be far too late.
You'd be better off finding a way to get use magic device as a class skill with as much bonus to it as you can, and then using scrolls and wands to bridge the gap.