Question for Pathfinder 1st ed Instant Weapon vs Spell Resistance

[Winriar]

Question:

Does Instant Weapon bypass SR?

Basically the Saving throw and Spell Resistance entries are non-existent. Was this on purpose?

[Ruzza]

You're looking for the first edition rules forum. Someone here may know the answer, though.

[Tonya Woldridge]

Moved from Pathfinder Second Edition Rules to Pathfinder First Edition Rules.

[Azothath]

Instant Weapon:2 Conj(Creat)[force] Dur:CstrLvl min.
Conjuration
Creation
Force
Spell Resistance Spell Descriptions. Spell resistance is a special defensive ability. If your spell is being resisted by a creature with spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature’s spell resistance for the spell to affect that creature. The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks. Include any adjustments to your caster level to this caster level check.
The Spell Resistance entry and the descriptive text of a spell description tell you whether spell resistance protects creatures from the spell. In many cases, spell resistance applies only when a resistant creature is targeted by the spell, not when a resistant creature encounters a spell that is already in place.

and Force Sword:2 Evoc[force] Dur:CstrLvl min.
most GMs are going to go with the last paragraph to 'fill in the missing text' of Instant Weapon spell otherwise the default to SR is YES and the weapon is likely to 'poof' when you hit and fail a caster level check.
If a creature you attack with the sword has spell resistance, you must attempt a caster level check (1d20 + your caster level) against that spell resistance the first time the force sword strikes it. If you fail the check, the spell is dispelled. If you succeed, the weapon has its normal full effect on that creature for the duration of the spell.

[Diego Rossi]

Instant weapon seems to have been derived from Force sword and Spiritual weapon. They all create weapons of force. While there isn't any conclusive evidence, I will have it work as Spiritual weapon.

Spiritual weapon wrote:

If an attacked creature has spell resistance, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against that spell resistance the first time the spiritual weapon strikes it. If the weapon is successfully resisted, the spell is dispelled. If not, the weapon has its normal full effect on that creature for the duration of the spell.

[Firebug]

I'd say it more mimics Flame Blade/Gozreh's Trident/Holy Ice Weapon/Desperate Weapon/Hedging Weapons rather than Spiritual Weapon.
Same 0' range, min/level, effect: melee weapon of some sort.
Flame Blade/Gozreh's Trident are SR:Yes and no save, the others are SR:No and no save. Hedging Weapons has neither listed either.
That it doesn't have SR or a Save would have to be intentional.
Spiritual Weapon actually deals force damage, not weapon damage and strikes like a spell.
Force Sword is probably a good comparison. It is the same level as Instant Weapon, but has some advantages, so it makes sense that Instant Weapon would different advantages. Force Sword is an Evocation(Force) that starts off as a +1 weapon up to +3, can be handed off to someone else (or thrown) and cannot be attacked except by specific spells, but has SR:Yes. Instant Weapon is a conjuration(creation)(force) that can be any masterwork weapon, but has 20 hardness(can be attacked) and can't be dropped or given away. It makes complete sense from a balance point of view that it ignores SR.

[Winriar]

Ruzza wrote:

You're looking for the first edition rules forum. Someone here may know the answer, though.

Thank you for the assist Ruzza

[Winriar]

Firebug wrote:

I'd say it more mimics Flame Blade/Gozreh's Trident/Holy Ice Weapon/Desperate Weapon/Hedging Weapons rather than Spiritual Weapon.

Same 0' range, min/level, effect: melee weapon of some sort.
Flame Blade/Gozreh's Trident are SR:Yes and no save, the others are SR:No and no save. Hedging Weapons has neither listed either.
That it doesn't have SR or a Save would have to be intentional.
Spiritual Weapon actually deals force damage, not weapon damage and strikes like a spell.
Force Sword is probably a good comparison. It is the same level as Instant Weapon, but has some advantages, so it makes sense that Instant Weapon would different advantages. Force Sword is an Evocation(Force) that starts off as a +1 weapon up to +3, can be handed off to someone else (or thrown) and cannot be attacked except by specific spells, but has SR:Yes. Instant Weapon is a conjuration(creation)(force) that can be any masterwork weapon, but has 20 hardness(can be attacked) and can't be dropped or given away. It makes complete sense from a balance point of view that it ignores SR.

Firebug - I agree that it lends more towards Icicle Dagger than Spiritual Weapon but I was hoping there is a rule that states 'if it is not listed then it doesn't apply' type of clarity.

[willuwontu]

Winriar wrote:

Firebug - I agree that it lends more towards Icicle Dagger than Spiritual Weapon but I was hoping there is a rule that states 'if it is not listed then it doesn't apply' type of clarity.

That is how spells work, yes. It doesn't list a saving throw either so enemies don't get one.

[Diego Rossi]

Magic chapter:

Spell Descriptions wrote:

Spell Resistance

Spell resistance is a special defensive ability. If your spell is being resisted by a creature with spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature’s spell resistance for the spell to affect that creature. The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks. Include any adjustments to your caster level to this caster level check.
The Spell Resistance entry and the descriptive text of a spell description tell you whether spell resistance protects creatures from the spell. In many cases, spell resistance applies only when a resistant creature is targeted by the spell, not when a resistant creature encounters a spell that is already in place.
The terms “object” and “harmless” mean the same thing for spell resistance as they do for saving throws. A creature with spell resistance must voluntarily lower the resistance a standard action) in order to be affected by such spells without forcing the caster to make a caster level check.

It implies that if the line about SR doesn't exist there is no SR check.

On the other hand:

Quote:

Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates. If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

Instant weapon is a Conjuration, Creation spell with a duration, so the blade is kept together by magic. Generally, that kind of stuff is affected by SR.

As the spell completely lacks the SR line, probably the writer thought that all conjurations are immune to SR, a somewhat common mistake.

Just to muddle the waters even more:

Quote:

As a force effect, it can strike and damage incorporeal creatures.

and

Quote:

You are considered proficient with this weapon, which acts in all ways as a masterwork weapon typical of its type.

If the spell were conjuring a masterwork weapon there would be no SR, as the weapon is a physical object. But then it says that the weapon is a force effect.

RAW I would say there is no SR check, but as a GM I would require it.

[Trokarr]

“You are considered proficient with this weapon, which acts in ALL WAYS as a masterwork weapon typical of its type” masterwork weapons do not require an SR check. No SR check or save are listed in the spell description. I think these points strongly indicate that no SR check is allowed.

[Diego Rossi]

Trokarr wrote:

“You are considered proficient with this weapon, which acts in ALL WAYS as a masterwork weapon typical of its type” masterwork weapons do not require an SR check. No SR check or save are listed in the spell description. I think these points strongly indicate that no SR check is allowed.

"ALL WAYS as a masterwork weapon" and "As a force effect,"

Masterwork weapons aren't force effects. So the description contradicts itself. Not a rare event.

[Trokarr]

I agree that the text could be better written. Personally I would probably go with the RAW here that there is no SR check since none is listed but any GM could reasonably require one given the force effect contradiction.

[Diego Rossi]

Trokarr wrote:

I agree that the text could be better written. Personally I would probably go with the RAW here that there is no SR check since none is listed but any GM could reasonably require one given the force effect contradiction.

Exactly.

Personally, I don't like when conjuration effects do something equivalent to evocation effects (like Force Sword, in this instance) but better, and consider Force effect powerful. So I would require an SR check. But it is a personal opinion, not a rule.

[Trokarr]

A compromise option could be to give the player a choice at the time of casting; either conjure a force weapon subject to SR or conjure a mundane weapon that ignores it. I like to encourage player freedom when it’s feasible to do so, so perhaps I will give this a go if this spell should pop up at my table in the future.

[Azothath]

I think everyone agrees that the spell description needs some work and it invites GMs to interpret what is there(RAW). RAW is what it is...

[OmniMage]

I think the spell should be changed so it works properly. Since this a conjuration effect with a duration, therefore the spell should be subject to SR.

An alternative it to make it an instantaneous effect that creates a masterwork weapon with every casting. This would make a bunch of weapons that can be sold, which could break the economy, so I think it should have an expensive material component to prevent that. Something expensive enough so the caster would only just break even or something.

Another alternative is summon a weapon from somewhere else. I think this weapon should be properly tagged in a ritual so you can't just steal any weapon just by summoning it.

[Diego Rossi]

OmniMage wrote:

I think the spell should be changed so it works properly. Since this a conjuration effect with a duration, therefore the spell should be subject to SR.

An alternative it to make it an instantaneous effect that creates a masterwork weapon with every casting. This would make a bunch of weapons that can be sold, which could break the economy, so I think it should have an expensive material component to prevent that. Something expensive enough so the caster would only just break even or something.

Another alternative is summon a weapon from somewhere else. I think this weapon should be properly tagged in a ritual so you can't just steal any weapon just by summoning it.

The problem is that it is a force weapon. If it was a normal masterwork weapon, summoning one would work fine without SR and a duration, as there is no magic that interacts with the creature attacked. (Exactly as it works for summoned creatures.)

But it is a weapon made of force 8and that is what makes it interesting), so the magic of the blade interacts with the attacked creatures.

Any of my characters would pay a masterwork force weapon at least as much as a +1 magic weapon. And then he would enchant it.

[willuwontu]

Azothath wrote:

I think everyone agrees that the spell description needs some work and it invites GMs to interpret what is there(RAW).

No, not at all. The spell is explicitly clear on how it works. You conjure up a masterwork melee weapon of any type and are considered proficient with it. The weapon is able to be sundered (unlike force sword), and can damage incorporeal creatures. If it ever leaves your hand (unlike spiritual weapon or force sword), the spell ends and the weapon disappears.

The fact that it's a conjured sword made up of force has no bearing on if it interacts with spell resistance, just as a summoned creature doesn't, nor does a regular enchanted weapon.

[Azothath]

willuwontu wrote:

Azothath wrote:

I think everyone agrees that the spell description needs some work and it invites GMs to interpret what is there(RAW).

No, not at all. The spell is explicitly clear on how it works. You conjure up a masterwork melee weapon of any type and are considered proficient with it. The weapon is able to be sundered (unlike force sword), and can damage incorporeal creatures. If it ever leaves your hand (unlike spiritual weapon or force sword), the spell ends and the weapon disappears.

The fact that it's a conjured sword made up of force has no bearing on if it interacts with spell resistance, just as a summoned creature doesn't, nor does a regular enchanted weapon.

I'd agree that is a strident RAW reading.

Unfortunately the spell does not conform to the usual template and is missing some descriptors. That's really all I can say as going into RAI or editing failures/simple lack of consistency is a lost cause. It is why I used the word "invites". Determining that the spell is written correctly AS IS is a GM decision as you still must fill in the missing data.

[OmniMage]

Diego Rossi wrote:

OmniMage wrote:

I think the spell should be changed so it works properly. Since this a conjuration effect with a duration, therefore the spell should be subject to SR.

An alternative it to make it an instantaneous effect that creates a masterwork weapon with every casting. This would make a bunch of weapons that can be sold, which could break the economy, so I think it should have an expensive material component to prevent that. Something expensive enough so the caster would only just break even or something.

Another alternative is summon a weapon from somewhere else. I think this weapon should be properly tagged in a ritual so you can't just steal any weapon just by summoning it.

The problem is that it is a force weapon. If it was a normal masterwork weapon, summoning one would work fine without SR and a duration, as there is no magic that interacts with the creature attacked. (Exactly as it works for summoned creatures.)

But it is a weapon made of force 8and that is what makes it interesting), so the magic of the blade interacts with the attacked creatures.

Any of my characters would pay a masterwork force weapon at least as much as a +1 magic weapon. And then he would enchant it.

Oh. I thought I implied that the masterwork weapon wasn't a force weapon. On the internet, no one can tell if you are joking or being very serious... Yeah. I didn't mention it wasn't a force weapon (because it was not) and assumed that all readers would catch on.

Okay. Let me be clear. When I said masterwork weapon, I meant a normal masterwork weapon, not a masterwork force weapon. I thought what I didn't say would be noticed. I also said it was a good idea to change the spell, or create variants, because the spell being talked about didn't conform to the pattern other spells had.

So I proposed 3 versions. The first is a create masterwork weapon spell, the second be a summon weapon spell, and the third be a force sword spell.

As for a permanent force weapon, wouldn't a +1 ghost touch weapon (8000 gp) suffice?

[Winriar]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Trokarr wrote:

“You are considered proficient with this weapon, which acts in ALL WAYS as a masterwork weapon typical of its type” masterwork weapons do not require an SR check. No SR check or save are listed in the spell description. I think these points strongly indicate that no SR check is allowed.

"ALL WAYS as a masterwork weapon" and "As a force effect,"

Masterwork weapons aren't force effects. So the description contradicts itself. Not a rare event.

Is there anyway to obtain a definitive answer from Paizo?

[Diego Rossi]

Winriar wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

Trokarr wrote:

“You are considered proficient with this weapon, which acts in ALL WAYS as a masterwork weapon typical of its type” masterwork weapons do not require an SR check. No SR check or save are listed in the spell description. I think these points strongly indicate that no SR check is allowed.

"ALL WAYS as a masterwork weapon" and "As a force effect,"

Masterwork weapons aren't force effects. So the description contradicts itself. Not a rare event.

Is there anyway to obtain a definitive answer from Paizo?

No. Pathfinder 1ed has been abandoned.