Hey folks,
I just had an interesting interaction in my game tonight, and I wanted to see what people had to say about it.
My players were in the middle of a big fight, where the Wizard started off by casting Black Tentacles into a room full of enemies. One of the enemies that was grappled by the tentacles was an archer. Rather than worry about trying to escape, the archer just kept shooting, but here's where it gets weird (at least to me).
Every time the archer tries to attack, he has to Reload (which is part of the same action as the attack, according to the Reload action with a '0' value). Reload is an Interact Action, which requires a Flat Check DC 5, but the Attack action doesn't. So, based on all this, does the archer: a) lose the attack if he can't reload, or b) completely ignore the Flat Check, as it technically doesn't cost anything?
To keep the game going, I went with the former, but am curious what others think about this.
Thanks.
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Well consider the opposite: a dude with a heavy crossbow in tentacles. Reload 2. How many flat checks does he need to reload? If the answer is "2, because he does 2 Interact actions", then for the bow archer the answer would be "0, because 0 Interact actions needed".
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Well consider the opposite: a dude with a heavy crossbow in tentacles. Reload 2. How many flat checks does he need to reload? If the answer is "2, because he does 2 Interact actions", then for the bow archer the answer would be "0, because 0 Interact actions needed".
I think this is not right at all.
The Interact part of the "Reload 0" is there exactly to trigger Attacks of Opportunity and to be interrupted by grapples and similar effects. The difference is that mechanically, this Interact action is baked into the Bow's attack action. So yes, I think the flat check would need to be rolled for each shot made. A whack to the face would be triggered as well, which we wouldn't be possible if we interpreted "0 interact actions needed" as true.
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0 doesn't mean 0 Interact actions, it means that the Interact action is part of the Strike action.
Because they are now one single action, if you fail the flat check, then the entire action is lost. So you can't shoot.
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If Reload 2 is considered two actions that both provoke (despite being a single activity), then spells would also provoke twice, being two actions (generally) part of a single activity.
Reload 2 means that you have to perform 2 Interact actions the same way a Hunted Shot is 2 Strikes. As such, it provokes twice.
But casting a spell is a single action (costing 2 actions, the fact that action and action have the same name despite being 2 different things is a burden). So you only provoke once when casting a spell.|
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Reload 2 means that you have to perform 2 Interact actions the same way a Hunted Shot is 2 Strikes. As such, it provokes twice.
But casting a spell is a single action (costing 2 actions, the fact that action and action have the same name despite being 2 different things is a burden). So you only provoke once when casting a spell.
Spellcasting is a single activity, which can cost 1-3 actions. Each action with the appropriate trait provokes; however, many spells are somatic and verbal, and verbal does not have the manipulate trait, so many spells only provoke once. I believe there are higher levels feats that let you react to things with the concentrate trait as well, meaning such a spell would indeed provoke twice.
I believe the correct reading is that drawing the arrow to fire the bow does trigger AoO, and if the action is disrupted the shot is lost (I don't think the lost action counts for MAP though, as you never got to take the action in the first place). Reloading a crossbow would provoke twice, once for each Interact action.
In the extreme case of a foe with multiple reactions, this does mean a bow-user provokes twice as many times as a crossbow user, which may be an intentional (if extremely minor) balancing between the two.
The Interact part of the "Reload 0" is there exactly to trigger Attacks of Opportunity and to be interrupted by grapples and similar effects. The difference is that mechanically, this Interact action is baked into the Bow's attack action. So yes, I think the flat check would need to be rolled for each shot made. A whack to the face would be triggered as well, which we wouldn't be possible if we interpreted "0 interact actions needed" as true.
Attack of Opportunity includes “makes a ranged attack” in its list of triggers, so even if reload 0 didn’t include an interact action you could still get whacked in the face. That said, the rule saying drawing and firing are part of the same action inclines me to think the drawing is a subordinate Interact action, so it does need the flat check.
I think it also makes sense from a balance perspective. Being grappled inherently limits melee attacks because you can’t move to your target. Ranged attacks don’t have that issue, so the flat check gives the grapple some utility in those cases.
Spellcasting is a single activity, which can cost 1-3 actions.
Unless AoN is wrong, Spellcasting is an action, not an activity.
I believe the correct reading is that drawing the arrow to fire the bow does trigger AoO, and if the action is disrupted the shot is lost (I don't think the lost action counts for MAP though, as you never got to take the action in the first place).
It counts for MAP as drawing the arrow is part of an attack action, as such you have performed an attack action (that has been disrupted).
In the extreme case of a foe with multiple reactions, this does mean a bow-user provokes twice
This is GM dependent. If 2 triggers are similar, the GM can decide that only one reaction/free action can be triggered. Considering that reloading is part of the attack action, I can see a GM limiting to one AoO (and I would as I find that far too punishing to allow 2 of them on the same action).
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If an item takes 2 or more actions to reload, the GM determines whether they must be performed together as an activity, or you can spend some of those actions during one turn and the rest during your next turn.
If doing the reload of a heavy crossbow with Reload 2 during a single turn, then it would be a single activity and would only be one interact activity that costs two actions. So it would only provoke reactions once.
If you split it up across turns (with GM approval, of course), then it would be two separate interact events and each would provoke reactions.
For a bow or other Reload 0 weapon, the interact action becomes a subordinate action of the attack along with the Strike action to actually make the attack. As such, the interact subordinate action still provokes reactions as normal.
So if a Reload 0 weapon is being used and the Reload subordinate action gets interrupted, then there are two options for ruling on this: 1) The entire attack is interrupted. 2) Only the Reload subordinate action is interrupted.
For a Reload 0 weapon like a bow, I can't see any mechanical difference between the two. In both cases the Strike can't happen because even in option 2, the weapon is not loaded and ready to fire.
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Spellcasting is a single activity, which can cost 1-3 actions.Unless AoN is wrong, Spellcasting is an action, not an activity.
I have never seen casting a spell be described as anything other than an activity except in places where anything you can do (action, reaction, activity, free action) is grouped into the general term 'action'.
Casting a Spell is a special activity that takes a number of actions defined by the spell.
Edit: Ah, which is what you meant here:
But casting a spell is a single action (costing 2 actions, the fact that action and action have the same name despite being 2 different things is a burden).
Yes, casting a spell is a single action* with a specific action* type of Activity.
* 'action' being a general term here.
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In the extreme case of a foe with multiple reactions, this does mean a bow-user provokes twice as many times as a crossbow user, which may be an intentional (if extremely minor) balancing between the two.
Other than the crossbow user only being able to fire half as often as the bow user, I am not sure what you are meaning.
A bow user will provoke reactions for reload once per shot.
A crossbow user will provoke reactions for reload once per shot.
There may be some strange cases regarding activities that allow for multiple Strike actions (Ranger Hunted Shot for example) because of the limit on reactions of one reaction per trigger. So taking two actions to make two Strike attacks with a short bow will definitely provoke reactions for each Reload. Using Hunted Shot to make two Strike actions with a short bow is a bit less clear. It is only one activity, so like with Spellcasting or Reload 2 it shouldn't provoke twice for the one activity. But it seems unbalanced to not allow each reload and Strike action to provoke. Not entirely convinced one way or the other on this particular edge case.
Spellcasting is a single activity, which can cost 1-3 actions.Unless AoN is wrong, Spellcasting is an action, not an activity.
I have never seen casting a spell be described as anything other than an activity except in places where anything you can do (action, reaction, activity, free action) is grouped into the general term 'action'.
Casting a Spell is a special activity that takes a number of actions defined by the spell.
AoN has put Cast a Spell under actions, when there is an activity tab. So, I've made a mistake, I remove my comment.
AoN has put Cast a Spell under actions, when there is an activity tab. So, I've made a mistake, I remove my comment.Spellcasting is a single activity, which can cost 1-3 actions.Unless AoN is wrong, Spellcasting is an action, not an activity.
I have never seen casting a spell be described as anything other than an activity except in places where anything you can do (action, reaction, activity, free action) is grouped into the general term 'action'.
Casting a Spell is a special activity that takes a number of actions defined by the spell.
Your comment is fine. Technically correct even. The problem is (once again) English. I edited my comment to show that.
If an item takes 2 or more actions to reload, the GM determines whether they must be performed together as an activity, or you can spend some of those actions during one turn and the rest during your next turn.If doing the reload of a heavy crossbow with Reload 2 during a single turn, then it would be a single activity and would only be one interact activity that costs two actions. So it would only provoke reactions once.
Where do you get this rule? I currently don't think there's one and activities should provoke multiple times as long as they generate multiple triggers.
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While all weapons need some amount of time to get into position, many ranged weapons also need to be loaded and reloaded. This entry indicates how many Interact actions it takes to reload such weapons. This can be 0 if drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action. If an item takes 2 or more actions to reload, the GM determines whether they must be performed together as an activity, or you can spend some of those actions during one turn and the rest during your next turn.
Reload 2 clearly means 2 Interact actions. Each of those can provoke.
The other way around, the 0 Interact actions, I think 0 really means 0. You're reloading somehow, but it takes 0 Interact actions, so the traits on Interact don't matter. I guess reloading a bow is just really easy?
Of course firing the bow would still provoke because it's a ranged attack. But I guess it can be done without flat check while grappled and can't be interrupted by AoO.
The other way around, the 0 Interact actions, I think 0 really means 0.
Yes, zero really does mean zero.
But that's also irrelevant here, because you're still Reloading, which under certain conditions will provoke Attacks of Opportunity. The number of actions an activity takes has nothing to do with provoking or not provoking.
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Reload is an Interact and Interact does have traits though.
The rules are pretty clear. Reload 0 means you Reload as part of making the Strike. It does not say you never have to Reload or ignore the traits associated with Reloading.
Running Reload lets you Reload and do something else for the same action too. Would you argue that the Reload doesn't provoke there either?
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The Reload 0 and discussion of AoO is something of a red herring here I believe due to the fact that the Strike and the Reload are for all intents and purposes part of the same singular Action of making the Strike with the Bow. The OP is asking about the Flat Check specifically so I'll discuss that in isolation.
So lets look at item by item:
1) The Archer is Grappled.
2) Grappled creatures must make a Flat Check and succeed or any Action with the Manipulate Trait or the Action is lost.
3) Making a Strike or any other typical run-of-the-mill Ranged Attack with a Bow includes a Reload 0 subordinate Action.
4) Reload has the Manipulate Trait.
5) A Strike/Attack from the Archer inherits the Manipulate Trait and is itself an Action.
So, taking all of that together it tells us that while Grappled an Archer is performing an Action with the Manipulate Trait and thus must make and succeed the Flat Check or the Action they are performing is lost in which case the Strike/Attack never resolves. The Archer loses the Action(s) spent on the Strike/Attack and the attack roll is never made in the first place. As an aside, this also means that because the Action is lost they never actually perform the Action WITH the Manipulate Trait and as a consequence don't actually provoke an Attack of Opportunity due to failing the Flat Check and having lost the Action where they attempted to Strike.
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Where do you get this rule? I currently don't think there's one and activities should provoke multiple times as long as they generate multiple triggers.If an item takes 2 or more actions to reload, the GM determines whether they must be performed together as an activity, or you can spend some of those actions during one turn and the rest during your next turn.If doing the reload of a heavy crossbow with Reload 2 during a single turn, then it would be a single activity and would only be one interact activity that costs two actions. So it would only provoke reactions once.
Which one?
The rule about Reload 2 being one single activity is what I bolded in the quote of the Reload trait.
As for only provoking once per activity, that is how I am interpreting Actions with Triggers and Limits on Triggers
You can use free actions that have triggers and reactions only in response to certain events.
You can use only one action in response to a given trigger.
And yes, it uses the word 'events' instead of 'action'. But I think the word 'event' is a more clear way of defining the general meaning of 'action' (any of action, reaction, activity, free action).
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1) The Archer is Grappled.
2) Grappled creatures must make a Flat Check and succeed or any Action with the Manipulate Trait or the Action is lost.
3) Making a Strike or any other typical run-of-the-mill Ranged Attack with a Bow includes a Reload 0 subordinate Action.
[s]4) Reload has the Manipulate Trait.]/s]
5) A Strike/Attack from the Archer inherits the Manipulate Trait and is itself an Action.
It doesn't. Reload doesn't have any traits by itself. And if it doesn't need you to do any Interact, it doesn't inherit any either.
You can use free actions that have triggers and reactions only in response to certain events.You can use only one action in response to a given trigger.And yes, it uses the word 'events' instead of 'action'. But I think the word 'event' is a more clear way of defining the general meaning of 'action' (any of action, reaction, activity, free action).
So, it's your interpretation of trigger, but I don't think it can be considered a common interpretation. As the GM has the right to determine that 2 different triggers are in fact the same trigger, I can't say you're wrong. I personally consider that 2 actions provoking AoOs are 2 different triggers even if both are inside the same activity. I won't allow 2 AoOs for a single bow shot, but I'll definitely allow 2 AoOs for 2 bow shots inside the same activity.
It doesn't. Reload doesn't have any traits by itself. And if it doesn't need you to do any Interact, it doesn't inherit any either.
Reload doesn't need to have the Interact trait, it inherits it automatically from it's subordinate actions.
"This can be 0 if drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action."
You still have to draw the ammunition which is a Manipulate action. You need to have the arrow at hand for the question to be raised.
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It doesn't. Reload doesn't have any traits by itself. And if it doesn't need you to do any Interact, it doesn't inherit any either.1) The Archer is Grappled.
2) Grappled creatures must make a Flat Check and succeed or any Action with the Manipulate Trait or the Action is lost.
3) Making a Strike or any other typical run-of-the-mill Ranged Attack with a Bow includes a Reload 0 subordinate Action.
[s]4) Reload has the Manipulate Trait.]/s]
5) A Strike/Attack from the Archer inherits the Manipulate Trait and is itself an Action.
While that might be technically true in the strictest sense of things, that also falls into the too good to be true category for me. You would still need to do an interact action to reload a bow. It just doesn't cost any actions - it becomes a subordinate action to the Strike itself.
The rule just didn't say that very clearly here:
This can be 0 if drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action.
But I feel like that was the intent. To make the interact reload part of the Strike.
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It doesn't. Reload doesn't have any traits by itself. And if it doesn't need you to do any Interact, it doesn't inherit any either.1) The Archer is Grappled.
2) Grappled creatures must make a Flat Check and succeed or any Action with the Manipulate Trait or the Action is lost.
3) Making a Strike or any other typical run-of-the-mill Ranged Attack with a Bow includes a Reload 0 subordinate Action.
[s]4) Reload has the Manipulate Trait.]/s]
5) A Strike/Attack from the Archer inherits the Manipulate Trait and is itself an Action.
Lets start at the top if you missed it then, I'll bold the relevant connective pieces that string all this together, forgive me if it at all comes off as brusk or patronizing as I do not intend it to be at all.
Reload: While all weapons need some amount of time to get into position, many ranged weapons also need to be loaded and reloaded. This entry indicates how many Interact actions it takes to reload such weapons. This can be 0 if drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action....
- So, we know that Reload involves Interact Actions
Interact: You use your hand or hands to manipulate an object or the terrain. You can grab an unattended or stored object, open a door, or produce some similar effect. You might have to attempt a skill check to determine if your Interact action was successful.
- Here we learn that Interact Actions cause you to Manipulate a thing, this adds the Manipulate Trait
Manipulate: You must physically manipulate an item or make gestures to use an action with this trait. Creatures without a suitable appendage can’t perform actions with this trait. Manipulate actions often trigger reactions.
- So again, pretty much just reiterating most of what Interact does but in a slightly less mechanical manner for good or ill in terms of understanding what is going on.
Grabbed: You're held in place by another creature, giving you the flat-footed and immobilized conditions. If you attempt a manipulate action while grabbed, you must succeed at a DC 5 flat check or it is lost; roll the check after spending the action, but before any effects are applied.
- Here we cover that being Grabbed, as the Archer in this situation is, causes them to need the Flat Check when using a Manipulate Action which we have established that Reload has by way of it using Interact Actions to reload (Reload 0 Actions are still Actions, they're simply done as part of the Attack/Strike itself)
The only part of this that can reasonably be debated is if the description of the Interact Action rules is meant to invoke the Manipulate Trait. I tend to think that it IS supposed to do this, otherwise they could have used dozens of different words to describe what is going on that would never have caused this kind of confusion. The Archives of Nethys page even includes Interact as a specific instance of a type of Action that references and uses the Manipulate Trait as evidence of this.
In summary, the problem here is the way the rules were HALF written in a mechanical way with Traits in mind but in other sections, they took a more casual approach and used the exact same words to describe something that matches the name of various Traits without explicitly spelling out that those descriptors actually add the same-named Trait to the Actions they're involved with. This is a problem across the whole of the rules and the general consensus around here, as far as I've been able to glean by way of user and dev input, is that if something includes a descriptor and name of a given Trait or effect in it then it is supposed to be interpreted as actually referring to that descriptor or Trait specifically. Examples of this include the various Feats and Features that talk about Slings where they simply say "slings" when they are in FACT talking about the entire Sling Weapon Group. I have bemoaned the fact that the rules are a mish-mash of casual and mechanical instructions since the playtest as I wish very much that there would have been strictly enforced ways that any rule that speaks to a Trait, Feature, or other "mechanical entity" would have used some typographical way of making that known and distinct by way of adding brackets such as [Manipulate] Action, [Orc] equipment, or even [Attack] versus [Strike], but ... it is what it is.
I am confident that regardless of the lack of text spelling out that when it says "manipulate" in the rules for something that it will ALWAYS be talking about the Manipulate Trait much the same way that the casual "attack" is referring to the Attack Trait.
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So, it's your interpretation of trigger, but I don't think it can be considered a common interpretation. As the GM has the right to determine that 2 different triggers are in fact the same trigger, I can't say you're wrong. I personally consider that 2 actions provoking AoOs are 2 different triggers even if both are inside the same activity. I won't allow 2 AoOs for a single bow shot, but I'll definitely allow 2 AoOs for 2 bow shots inside the same activity.You can use free actions that have triggers and reactions only in response to certain events.You can use only one action in response to a given trigger.And yes, it uses the word 'events' instead of 'action'. But I think the word 'event' is a more clear way of defining the general meaning of 'action' (any of action, reaction, activity, free action).
Yeah, like I mentioned, I am not entirely convinced on the ruling for all cases. I don't like the idea of triggering two AoO when casting a 2-action spell (or triggering three with a 3-action one). I don't like provoking twice for doing Reload 2 as a single activity. But I also don't like only triggering once for things like Hunted Shot or Flurry of Blows.
Or other strange edge cases like if a Monk was using Ki Rush and happened to end one Stride and start the second one in such a way that they left two squares while within reach of the same enemy but each square was from different Stride actions - that should only provoke once.
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Yeah, like I mentioned, I am not entirely convinced on the ruling for all cases. I don't like the idea of triggering two AoO when casting a 2-action spell (or triggering three with a 3-action one). I don't like provoking twice for doing Reload 2 as a single activity. But I also don't like only triggering once for things like Hunted Shot or Flurry of Blows.
As a GM, you can choose when something should be considered a single trigger or multiple ones, so I think you have full power to make a sensible ruling.
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It doesn't. Reload doesn't have any traits by itself. And if it doesn't need you to do any Interact, it doesn't inherit any either.1) The Archer is Grappled.
2) Grappled creatures must make a Flat Check and succeed or any Action with the Manipulate Trait or the Action is lost.
3) Making a Strike or any other typical run-of-the-mill Ranged Attack with a Bow includes a Reload 0 subordinate Action.
[s]4) Reload has the Manipulate Trait.]/s]
5) A Strike/Attack from the Archer inherits the Manipulate Trait and is itself an Action.Lets start at the top if you missed it then, I'll bold the relevant connective pieces that string all this together, forgive me if it at all comes off as brusk or patronizing as I do not intend it to be at all.
Reload: While all weapons need some amount of time to get into position, many ranged weapons also need to be loaded and reloaded. This entry indicates how many Interact actions it takes to reload such weapons. This can be 0 if drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action....
- So, we know that Reload involves Interact Actions
I disagree with this line of reasoning. It says that the reload entry indicates how many interact actions are involved. If the entry is 0, then the answer is 0.
Now, it does say later on that when the reload value is 0 drawing the ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action, and I think it's reasonable for someone to read "drawing ammunition" as having the manipulate trait (even if that's not explicitly stated), but it most definitely is not an interact action in that case, since there are no interact actions in the reloading process.
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I disagree with this line of reasoning. It says that the reload entry indicates how many interact actions are involved. If the entry is 0, then the answer is 0.
But 0-action actions do exist. And are still actions. And still apply their traits. And can still provoke reactions.
I disagree with this line of reasoning. It says that the reload entry indicates how many interact actions are involved. If the entry is 0, then the answer is 0.But 0-action actions do exist. And are still actions. And still apply their traits. And can still provoke reactions.
Source please. And don't point me to free actions or reactions.
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Source please. And don't point me to free actions or reactions.I disagree with this line of reasoning. It says that the reload entry indicates how many interact actions are involved. If the entry is 0, then the answer is 0.But 0-action actions do exist. And are still actions. And still apply their traits. And can still provoke reactions.
Subordinate actions?
"Subordinate Actions
An action might allow you to use a simpler action—usually one of the Basic Actions on page 469—in a different circumstance or with different effects. This subordinate action still has its normal traits and effects, but is modified in any ways listed in the larger action. For example, an activity that tells you to Stride up to half your Speed alters the normal distance you can move in a Stride. The Stride would still have the move trait, would still trigger reactions that occur based on movement, and so on. The subordinate action doesn’t gain any of the traits of the larger action unless specified. The action that allows you to use a subordinate action doesn’t require you to spend more actions or reactions to do so; that cost is already factored in."
Reload 0 is a reload that doesn't take an action of it's own but is part of the attack: "This subordinate action still has its normal traits and effects, but is modified in any ways listed in the larger action."
Wow! This got a lot more attention than I expected. Some great discussion going on here. I appreciate everyone's input.
The Reload 0 and discussion of AoO is something of a red herring here I believe due to the fact that the Strike and the Reload are for all intents and purposes part of the same singular Action of making the Strike with the Bow. The OP is asking about the Flat Check specifically so I'll discuss that in isolation.
So lets look at item by item:
1) The Archer is Grappled.
2) Grappled creatures must make a Flat Check and succeed or any Action with the Manipulate Trait or the Action is lost.
3) Making a Strike or any other typical run-of-the-mill Ranged Attack with a Bow includes a Reload 0 subordinate Action.
4) Reload has the Manipulate Trait.
5) A Strike/Attack from the Archer inherits the Manipulate Trait and is itself an Action.So, taking all of that together it tells us that while Grappled an Archer is performing an Action with the Manipulate Trait and thus must make and succeed the Flat Check or the Action they are performing is lost in which case the Strike/Attack never resolves. The Archer loses the Action(s) spent on the Strike/Attack and the attack roll is never made in the first place. As an aside, this also means that because the Action is lost they never actually perform the Action WITH the Manipulate Trait and as a consequence don't actually provoke an Attack of Opportunity due to failing the Flat Check and having lost the Action where they attempted to Strike.
Not to discount anyone else's input, but I definitely found that this helped to lay it out quite nicely for my brain to wrap around. Thanks for that!
"Subordinate Actions
An action might allow you to use a simpler action—usually one of the Basic Actions on page 469—in a different circumstance or with different effects. This subordinate action still has its normal traits and effects, but is modified in any ways listed in the larger action. For example, an activity that tells you to Stride up to half your Speed alters the normal distance you can move in a Stride. The Stride would still have the move trait, would still trigger reactions that occur based on movement, and so on. The subordinate action doesn’t gain any of the traits of the larger action unless specified. The action that allows you to use a subordinate action doesn’t require you to spend more actions or reactions to do so; that cost is already factored in."Reload 0 is a reload that doesn't take an action of it's own but is part of the attack: "This subordinate action still has its normal traits and effects, but is modified in any ways listed in the larger action."
I also found this quite helpful. I didn't even realize that the specific definition was in the book, which I suspect will help for future rule clarifications as well.
Source please. And don't point me to free actions or reactions.I disagree with this line of reasoning. It says that the reload entry indicates how many interact actions are involved. If the entry is 0, then the answer is 0.But 0-action actions do exist. And are still actions. And still apply their traits. And can still provoke reactions.
Not reactions. Those you do have a specified allotment of.
But free actions and subordinate actions are what I was meaning.
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Source please. And don't point me to free actions or reactions.I disagree with this line of reasoning. It says that the reload entry indicates how many interact actions are involved. If the entry is 0, then the answer is 0.But 0-action actions do exist. And are still actions. And still apply their traits. And can still provoke reactions.Subordinate actions?
"Subordinate Actions
An action might allow you to use a simpler action—usually one of the Basic Actions on page 469—in a different circumstance or with different effects. This subordinate action still has its normal traits and effects, but is modified in any ways listed in the larger action. For example, an activity that tells you to Stride up to half your Speed alters the normal distance you can move in a Stride. The Stride would still have the move trait, would still trigger reactions that occur based on movement, and so on. The subordinate action doesn’t gain any of the traits of the larger action unless specified. The action that allows you to use a subordinate action doesn’t require you to spend more actions or reactions to do so; that cost is already factored in."Reload 0 is a reload that doesn't take an action of it's own but is part of the attack: "This subordinate action still has its normal traits and effects, but is modified in any ways listed in the larger action."
Subordinate actions are not 0 action actions. They are exactly what the name implies: subordinate actions. Actions that are a part of a larger whole, and as such are already accounted for in the action cost of the activity. (Btw, by "larger whole" I don't mean the activity has to be more than 1 action. I'm aware that even free actions may include subordinate actions).
The point remains that it says if the reload entry is 0 the number of interact actions is 0, and "drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action". It does not say you interact to reload and fire as part of the same action (which doesn't even make sense, since there's 0 interact actions), it does not say that it's part of the same "interact action", it just says that reloading a weapon with a reload entry of 0 happens as a part of the action that fires the weapon (typically a strike).
Nowhere in the text of reload does it say that every time you fire a weapon with reload 0 you're not, in fact, using a simple strike, but rather using a 1-action activity that involves an interact action and a strike, nor does it say that the strike inherits any traits from the 0 interact actions that are performed.
As mentioned previously, I think it's reasonable for a GM to decide that "drawing ammunition" should have the manipulate trait regardless, but that is not what's stated in the rules for the reload entry.
Source please. And don't point me to free actions or reactions.I disagree with this line of reasoning. It says that the reload entry indicates how many interact actions are involved. If the entry is 0, then the answer is 0.But 0-action actions do exist. And are still actions. And still apply their traits. And can still provoke reactions.Not reactions. Those you do have a specified allotment of.
But free actions and subordinate actions are what I was meaning.
Okay... well, there was no mention of free actions in the rules for reload, so that's definitely irrelevant. And I fail to see where the rules for reload define a new activity for weapons with a reload 0 entry that involves the subordinate actions of interacting and striking with it despite the activity having 0 interact actions in it.
If an activity has a subordinate action of "strike" in it, then the number of strike actions in the activity wouldn't be 0.
The point remains that it says if the reload entry is 0 the number of interact actions is 0, and "drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action".
What would you call "drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action." if not a subordinate action? We know that a weapon with a Reload entry requires interact actions to reload and if it's subsumed in the attack it's a subordinate action.
I don't think any argument that equates to you reload a weapon without following the reload action is tenable IMO. But lets assume you're right. Drawing ammunition is explicitly included in firing the weapon and the Changing Equipment table tells us that "Draw or put away a worn item, or pick up an item" is an interact action... So we're back to it being a subordinate action even if it's not a reload action.
Not reactions. Those you do have a specified allotment of.
But free actions and subordinate actions are what I was meaning.
Okay... well, there was no mention of free actions in the rules for reload, so that's definitely irrelevant. And I fail to see where the rules for reload define a new activity for weapons with a reload 0 entry that involves the subordinate actions of interacting and striking with it despite the activity having 0 interact actions in it.
If an activity has a subordinate action of "strike" in it, then the number of strike actions in the activity wouldn't be 0.
Well, Reload does define itself as an activity for Reload 2, so I don't see why it shouldn't for Reload 0 also if that makes it work better.
And that is the thing - I don't see how it is intended for the rules to go into detail about adding the interact action to reloading, then mentioning reload 0 means having no additional action cost other than the Strike, and expecting that to mean that for some reason bow users get a free pass on the interact action traits.
So why shouldn't the bow attack have the Interact subordinate action for reload? What is the game balance reason for removing that?
The point remains that it says if the reload entry is 0 the number of interact actions is 0, and "drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action".What would you call "drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action." if not a subordinate action? We know that a weapon with a Reload entry requires interact actions to reload and if it's subsumed in the attack it's a subordinate action.
This is begging the question. The idea that reloading requires interact actions when the number of them is 0 is literally what's being discussed. Pre-supposing one interpretation of that is of course going to lead to the conclusion that that interpretation is correct.
I don't think any argument that equates to you reload a weapon without following the reload action is tenable IMO. But lets assume you're right. Drawing ammunition is explicitly included in firing the weapon and the Changing Equipment table tells us that "Draw or put away a worn item, or pick up an item" is an interact action... So we're back to it being a subordinate action even if it's not a reload action.
This... makes sense to me. As I said earlier, I always thought it was reasonable to consider the drawing of the ammunition to have the manipulate trait. And, for the record, that's actually how I run it just because it seems right even if I wasn't sure about RAW.
The table in question, however, pretty strongly backs up that interpretation. So, yeah... touché, I guess? I still stand by my claim that the rules for the reload entry don't say what you claim, though. Even if the end result is identical.
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Why would reload 2 provoke 2 reactions, reload 1 provoke 1 reaction, but reload 0 provoke 1 reaction?
I'm not certain that anyone is actually arguing for that case.
I am arguing that reload 2, reload 1, and reload 0 all provoke 1 reaction for interact action.
Others are arguing that reload 2 provokes 2 reactions, reload 1 provokes 1 reaction, an reload 0 provokes 0 reactions.
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Here's the deal people, and I hope that this lays the Reload 0 discussion to rest, but the truth is that Reload 0 is just a notation that Paizo decided to use to signify that this specific weapon have their reload coupled with the Strike Action, while entries with "-" still have to spend actions to be drawn like all items in the game... There's not a lot of reason to be debating "Reload 0" and its meaning at all.
It's a clear cut case of the rules. It specifies that there's an interact action involved even though it doesn't increase the action cost AND it fits perfectly narratively since grappled characters would reasonably have more problems handling their bows.
Why would reload 2 provoke 2 reactions, reload 1 provoke 1 reaction, but reload 0 provoke 1 reaction?
Because even on a Reload 0, you are baking the Reload rules into the action you use to Strike:
While all weapons need some amount of time to get into position, many ranged weapons also need to be loaded and reloaded. This entry indicates how many Interact actions it takes to reload such weapons. This can be 0 if drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action.
The rule states that the action to load the weapon is subsumed into the action to attack with it, making them one and the same. However, that also essentially means that any traits or abilities associated with it are applied to the attack as well, simply because the attack now carries the Manipulate trait, and AoO (and other similar reactions) trigger on the Manipulate trait being present on the activity.
It also promotes the ruling that a Ranged Attack with a Reload 0 weapon would trigger and, if critically hit, would disrupt the Ranged Attack, since that Ranged Attack has the Manipulate trait on it due to Reload 0.
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Why would reload 2 provoke 2 reactions, reload 1 provoke 1 reaction, but reload 0 provoke 1 reaction?
Because with Reload 2 you can literally break up the activity in two parts. For example, you can spend one action in one turn and another on a later turn and complete the reload, there's no requirement for the 2 actions to be done one after the other on the same round (Like with spells and several class feats). The key is not in the number, is in the Reload part. Whether is Reload 100 or Reload 0, it requires an Interact/manipulate action, thus it requires Flat Checks when grappled and provoke reactions. Forget the number, just remember the Reload/Interact/Manipulate relationship.
The point remains that it says if the reload entry is 0 the number of interact actions is 0, and "drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action".What would you call "drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action." if not a subordinate action? We know that a weapon with a Reload entry requires interact actions to reload and if it's subsumed in the attack it's a subordinate action.This is begging the question. The idea that reloading requires interact actions when the number of them is 0 is literally what's being discussed. Pre-supposing one interpretation of that is of course going to lead to the conclusion that that interpretation is correct.
I'm not convinced on begging the question. It looks like a valid question to me.
The rule text is
This entry indicates how many Interact actions it takes to reload such weapons. This can be 0 if drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action.
And I am seeing this as where it defines that if a weapon has Reload 0, then it must be because attacking with the weapon is an activity that involves drawing ammunition, loading that ammunition, and then firing the weapon.
It is true that it didn't explicitly list the 'loading the ammunition' part. But surely no one is arguing that I can draw an arrow, hold the arrow in my teeth, then fire the empty bow and have that work. Loading the ammunition is part of firing a Reload 0 weapon.
So the question is: if you don't interpret 'drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action' as being a solid reference to subordinate actions, what do you interpret that to mean?
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It also promotes the ruling that a Ranged Attack with a Reload 0 weapon would trigger and, if critically hit, would disrupt the Ranged Attack, since that Ranged Attack has the Manipulate trait on it due to Reload 0.
Yeah, I think that is the hidden reason that people are arguing for the strange reading of the Reload trait.
Attack of Opportunity will trigger on a ranged weapon Strike, but won't disrupt the Strike action. But AoO will disrupt the Reload action.
So people are more willing to risk a bow attack that provokes AoO if all they are risking is taking the damage. But if the risk is that if they get crit, the take damage and have their attack disrupted, that is a different matter entirely.
It is rare enough that an enemy has AoO in the first place. Having an enemy capable of making two AoO reactions is extremely rare. Plus it runs into the rule of only taking one reaction for a particular trigger. It is questionable if the draw/load/fire combination is a separate event that could trigger multiple reactions.
So I doubt that this multiple reaction triggering of Reload 0 weapons is what people are actually concerned about. It's the disrupting the attack part.
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I never interpreted these rules as reload 0 taking actual interact actions to load, because, well, there are 0 actions being spent reloading. I imagined that in these set of rules, using a 0-reload weapon meant the weapon was trivial enough to operate that reloading and all the negatives associated with it are non-existent (apart from of course, the AoO triggered from firing a ranged weapon). I guess it's possible to argue from a realism PoV that nocking a bow in combat would provoke, but I thought in this game that sort of opening was abstracted out in favor of gameplay smoothness, much in the same way that swinging around a big heavy greatsword doesn't provoke. I'm not confident my interpretation is correct, but I'm also not entirely convinced by opposition arguments.
Two additional questions:
1) Is it possible to reload a reload 0 weapon without firing it?
2) Would an AoO critical hit interrupt a repeating weapon reload 0?For reference, the current in-game reload 0 weapons beside bows are air repeaters, shurikens, and repeating crossbows.
There's nothing to convince. The fact that Reload 0 doesn't have an action cost (a mechanical definition of the rules of the game) attached to the action of drawing an ammunition/projectile/whatever and then shooting a bow doesn't mean, narratively, that the weapon user is making the the Interact/Manipulate movements in a fluid motion without paying extra, mechanical and discrete abstracted defined by the game's rules, actions.
There's no complication or grey area. It's a Free Interact/Manipulate Action attached to a Strike. It's a free action, but it still is a Interact/Manipulate action.
It's like a Stride as part of a long/high jump not provoking reactions because it's nested inside the Jump action and when the character jumps they're outside the assailant's reach (effectively making this particular Stride not having the Move Trait, since it's nested inside the Long/High Jump Action which does have the Move Trait). Another alternative example is with Quickened Casting, since it reduces the Casting a Spell activity to one action, yet it doesn't change the fact that it maintains its components (verbal, somatic and material), which provoke accordingly (Fun Fact: During the PF2e playtest the Verbal, Somatic and Material Components were each representing one of the actions spent, but this caused lots of problems).
As I clarified before, the key point is not the number, is the Reload/Interact/Manipulate relationship. Forget the amount of triggers, just understand that it triggers.
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I never interpreted these rules as reload 0 taking actual interact actions to load, because, well, there are 0 actions being spent reloading. I imagined that in these set of rules, using a 0-reload weapon meant the weapon was trivial enough to operate that reloading and all the negatives associated with it are non-existent (apart from of course, the AoO triggered from firing a ranged weapon). I guess it's possible to argue from a realism PoV that nocking a bow in combat would provoke, but I thought in this game that sort of opening was abstracted out in favor of gameplay smoothness, much in the same way that swinging around a big heavy greatsword doesn't provoke. I'm not confident my interpretation is correct, but I'm also not entirely convinced by opposition arguments.
I always read it as that you still do the interact, it just costs you 0 actions to do.
I'm not sure that either way of reading it is entirely convincing.
Two additional questions:
1) Is it possible to reload a reload 0 weapon without firing it?
2) Would an AoO critical hit interrupt a repeating weapon reload 0?
For #1, it seems a bit odd to do that. I don't see any rules saying that you can, but it is somewhat implied since the weapon does need loaded. It doesn't give any information about how to charge actions for a separate reload of a Reload 0 weapon either. But I also don't see any rules saying that you can't.
For #2, I would expect that the AoO would be able to interrupt the 'cock to fire' part just like it would with loading a regular reload 0 weapon (under the assumption that the game is being run with this ruling). So if that gets interrupted, the weapon would be unloaded and not ready to fire.