questions about the light cantrip

[Senko]

Just been looking into creative uses of spells and a few of the ones for the light cantrip got me curious about these things.

1) Can you choose the light colour?
2) If you cant choose it is it always "white" light or affected by the object e.g. a blue cloak radiates blue light and a sword radiates silvery/steel light?
3) If you cast it on something like a stick of chalk then use the chalk does the drawn chalk still radiate light, just the stick or nothing as you've broken it?
4) If you cast it on something like a branch then break the branch what happens?

[MrCharisma]

LIGHT wrote:

Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 304

School evocation [light]; Level adept 0, arcanist 0, bard 0, cleric 0, druid 0, hunter 0, inquisitor 0, magus 0, medium 0, mesmerist 0, occultist 0, oracle 0, psychic 0, shaman 0, skald 0, sorcerer 0, spiritualist 0, summoner 0, summoner (unchained) 0, warpriest 0, witch 0, wizard 0
Casting
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, M/DF (a firefly)
Effect
Range touch
Target object touched
Duration 10 min./level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
Description
This spell causes a touched object to glow like a torch, shedding normal light in a 20-foot radius, and increasing the light level for an additional 20 feet by one step, up to normal light (darkness becomes dim light, and dim light becomes normal light). In an area of normal or bright light, this spell has no effect. The effect is immobile, but it can be cast on a movable object.

You can only have one light spell active at any one time. If you cast this spell while another casting is still in effect, the previous casting is dispelled. If you make this spell permanent (through permanency or a similar effect), it does not count against this limit. Light can be used to counter or dispel any darkness spell of equal or lower spell level.

[MrCharisma]

Senko wrote:

1) Can you choose the light colour?

2) If you cant choose it is it always "white" light or affected by the object e.g. a blue cloak radiates blue light and a sword radiates silvery/steel light?
3) If you cast it on something like a stick of chalk then use the chalk does the drawn chalk still radiate light, just the stick or nothing as you've broken it?
4) If you cast it on something like a branch then break the branch what happens?

1) Sure why not.

2) If not I'd assume it's always a yellow-y red-y light ("like a torch").
3) Just the stick, or nothing. You can't use 1 casting to create multiple light sources.
4) I'd say the part you originally touched (or the larger part if that's unclear) retains the light. Again, you can't get multiple light sources from one casting. It could be argued that breaking the stick extinguishes the light. It's a cantrip, so I'm not opposed to that, but I'd probably just keep one light source.

[Mysterious Stranger]

I don’t think there are any actual rules about the first two items.

Allowing the light to be different colors is not going create any problems. One interesting variant would be to have each person manifest a different color. So one person’s light may be red, where another person would be blue.

I would say that once you break an object the light spell is also broken.

As to the chalk nothing prevents you from casting light on the chalk drawing after it is drawn. As long as the chalk drawing is considered one object you can have it radiate light.

[HighLordNiteshade]

Not that anyone probably does this in an actual game, but red light would have an advantage in that deep red lights do not trigger the neutralization of rhodopsin, allowing night vision to continue. So if your (red) light spell gets neutralized (or expires), as long as there is some dim light the party wouldn't be temporarily blinded as their night vision would be intact. Otherwise, the party could experience several rounds of blindness if their (non-Red) light is suddenly extinguished (think of turning off the bathroom light in the middle of the night and then trying to get back to bed).

[AwesomenessDog]

@HighLordNiteshade, the game doesn't really model this anyway.

@Mysterious Stranger, having multiple color lights could let you communicate in ways better than the message spell if you create a code before hand. The light should be visible at much longer distances and with the right coding system, you could communicate at virtually the same efficiency with a blinding tool (a la Morse code lamps) and the ability to change the color at least once every 6 seconds.

But this also requires a level of ingenuity and likely linguistics skill rolls that maybe doesn't let this break intended power of a cantrip.

[Azothath]

Senko wrote:

Just been looking into creative uses of spells and a few of the ones for the light cantrip got me curious about these things.

1) Can you choose the light colour?
2) If you cant choose it is it always "white" light or affected by the object e.g. a blue cloak radiates blue light and a sword radiates silvery/steel light?
3) If you cast it on something like a stick of chalk then use the chalk does the drawn chalk still radiate light, just the stick or nothing as you've broken it?
4) If you cast it on something like a branch then break the branch what happens?

1) not defined. These details are left to the home game GM. As always, specific (realistic) effects that provide a mechanical advantage are usually not considered or allowed but can be in a home game. Much of this rationalization is based on modern understanding and science which the characters in the game have NO CONCEPT OF or skills to support such assumptions, thus it is a modelling issue to discuss outside of the game with the GM or metagaming.

2) again not defined.

3) no. As per game rules you have to destroy the chalk's HP value not just give it the broken condition though 'wear & tear'. If you want glowing letters, draw the letter then cast the spell on it (game treats it as a single object).

4) see 3 and no - if on a tree then the tree and attendant branches are ONE OBJECT and it all glows. If cast on a stick then if the stick is Destroyed (in the GMs opinion) spell ends.

Notice there's no physical dimensions for the target (I'd suggest home game GM amend it to "up to a small object") or radiance/radiant luminance/lumens in the description. It's just a simplistic description. It's assumed that the glow applies to the WHOLE exterior of the object.

Some of these things are what the characters should be doing if investigating the parameters of a spell and how it operates and they have to tell the GM, not just do thought experiments. Some is covered by Spellcraft so the GM can set a DC and the character roll to know the information.
SPELL RESEARCH is the way to change or create new spells for $$$$$.

[Mark Hoover 330]

If you want multi-colored lights for multiple sources, may I introduce to you Dancing Lights

Dancing Lights wrote:

Depending on the version selected, you create up to four lights that resemble lanterns or torches (and cast that amount of light), or up to four glowing spheres of light (which look like will-o’-wisps), or one faintly glowing, vaguely humanoid shape. The dancing lights must stay within a 10-foot-radius area in relation to each other but otherwise move as you desire (no concentration required): forward or back, up or down, straight or turning corners, or the like. The lights can move up to 100 feet per round. A light winks out if the distance between you and it exceeds the spell’s range.

You can only have one dancing lights spell active at any one time. If you cast this spell while another casting is still in effect, the previous casting is dispelled. If you make this spell permanent, it does not count against this limit.

Dancing lights can be made permanent with a permanency spell.

As you can clearly see here, this spell creates up to 4 light globes that must remain in a 10' radius from one another but may otherwise be moved to the range of the spell. From the descriptive fluff under Will-o'-Wisp:

Will-o'-Wisp wrote:

Will-o’-wisps can glow any color they choose, but are most frequently yellow, white, green, or blue.

Now, I don't know if the multiple colors are indeed RAW here, since that's not explicitly called out in the spell, but it IS stated in the spell that they can resemble Will-o'-Wisps and in that creature's entry they can achieve many colors, so that is how I and many other GMs I've played with have ruled it.

Because of all of this, several players running Arcane casters in my games have used Dancing Lights as a kind of non-verbal code: if said caster is separated from their group for any reason, by choice or by happenstance, Green might indicate a safe passage, Yellow to say proceed with caution, Red for run away and so forth.

[Ryze Kuja]

If I was your DM:

Senko wrote:

1) Can you choose the light colour?

It is unspecified in the spell, and the color of this light is not game-breaking in the slightest, so, Yes.

Senko wrote:

2) If you cant choose it is it always "white" light or affected by the object e.g. a blue cloak radiates blue light and a sword radiates silvery/steel light?

Whatever color you want.

Senko wrote:

3) If you cast it on something like a stick of chalk then use the chalk does the drawn chalk still radiate light, just the stick or nothing as you've broken it?

It affects a single object, and only 1 object at a time, so it will only affect the piece of chalk you're holding. In the same way you could cast Light on an object sitting on a horizontal surface, I see no reason why you can't cast Light on the individual letter/number/drawing that you make with the chalk once it is on a vertical surface, provided that the chalk letter/number/drawing in question is one continuously-touching line(s) of chalk.

Senko wrote:

4) If you cast it on something like a branch then break the branch what happens?

You may choose which piece of the branch retains the light, or, the spell ends, but it would not affect both. Like question 3, Light may only affect one object at a time.

[marcryser]

How about this one, oh great collective of knowledge?

Imagine a spool of wire. If I cast light on the spool, it sheds light in a 20' radius. No problem.

What happens if I unwind the spool? Does the entire length of wire (50') shed light in a 20' radius?

What if I affix the wire to something and unwind it as I go down the corridor?

What if I forge several hundred feet of wire and work it into the ceiling of my fortress/stronghold so that it continues in an unbroken length through every room and corridor? Can I light the entire place with a single cantrip?

[Ryze Kuja]

marcryser wrote:

What happens if I unwind the spool? Does the entire length of wire (50') shed light in a 20' radius?

It's one object, so yes.

marcryser wrote:

What if I affix the wire to something and unwind it as I go down the corridor?

Yes.

marcryser wrote:

What if I forge several hundred feet of wire and work it into the ceiling of my fortress/stronghold so that it continues in an unbroken length through every room and corridor? Can I light the entire place with a single cantrip?

You're starting to dance over the line of abuse.

[Mark Hoover 330]

No, you cast it on a wound spool. When it unwinds, the light continues to shine from the central spool, regardless of whether there's wire on it or not. If you don't like that, then as your GM I'd say that the light emanates from the tip of the wire; unwinding the wire means there's a single end that glows like a torch and the rest is just normal wire.

You cast the spell on a single object and that object lets off the illumination of a torch. If, for example, you cast it on a 6' length of leather with a cup, aka a sling, then laid the sling out on the floor of a hallway, light would emanate from whatever part of the sling you touched when casting the spell, not the entire 6' length of the leather strap. Ruling that light came from everywhere on the device touched would mean that you're ADDING some level of range, however incremental, to the normal range of the spell and that's not RAW.

Again, if you want multiple sources of light from a cantrip... cast Dancing Lights.

[Sysryke]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

If you want multi-colored lights for multiple sources, may I introduce to you Dancing Lights

Dancing Lights wrote:

Depending on the version selected, you create up to four lights that resemble lanterns or torches (and cast that amount of light), or up to four glowing spheres of light (which look like will-o’-wisps), or one faintly glowing, vaguely humanoid shape. The dancing lights must stay within a 10-foot-radius area in relation to each other but otherwise move as you desire (no concentration required): forward or back, up or down, straight or turning corners, or the like. The lights can move up to 100 feet per round. A light winks out if the distance between you and it exceeds the spell’s range.

You can only have one dancing lights spell active at any one time. If you cast this spell while another casting is still in effect, the previous casting is dispelled. If you make this spell permanent, it does not count against this limit.

Dancing lights can be made permanent with a permanency spell.

As you can clearly see here, this spell creates up to 4 light globes that must remain in a 10' radius from one another but may otherwise be moved to the range of the spell. From the descriptive fluff under Will-o'-Wisp:

Will-o'-Wisp wrote:

Will-o’-wisps can glow any color they choose, but are most frequently yellow, white, green, or blue.

Now, I don't know if the multiple colors are indeed RAW here, since that's not explicitly called out in the spell, but it IS stated in the spell that they can resemble Will-o'-Wisps and in that creature's entry they can achieve many colors, so that is how I and many other GMs I've played with have ruled it.

Because of all of this, several players running Arcane casters in my games have used Dancing Lights as a kind of non-verbal code: if said caster is separated from their group for any reason, by choice or by happenstance, Green might indicate a safe passage, Yellow to say...

Not to thread hijack, but this raises the question, why ever take the light spell instead of dancing lights?

[Sysryke]

I think I may see the answer. The duration of light is better than dancing lights, right?

Any thing else to favor light over dancing?

[MrCharisma]

Sysryke wrote:

I think I may see the answer. The duration of light is better than dancing lights, right?

Any thing else to favor light over dancing?

Light is placed on an object, so you can do things like give it to an ally or drop it down a well.

Besides that they're basically 2 flavours of the same spell, so you may find you prefer one or the other.

[Mysterious Stranger]

I would say that the spool of wire is the object so when you unwind the spool it is no longer the same object you cast the spell on. Since it is not a different object the light ceases to function.

[Ryze Kuja]

Dancing Lights is better for having "a wider light source" because they all have to stay within 10 ft of each other, and they can float up to Medium range in front of you and possibly alert you of any dangers, but it has a max range so it has some limits.

Conversely, Light can only be cast on a single object and can't float in front of you (unless the object you cast it on does indeed float), but you can cast Light on an arrow and then fire the arrow 500-600ft across a cavernous expanse or down a long tunnel, or fire it upwards as a flare in a forest, or cast Light on a rock and drop it down a hole to see how far it goes. Light also lasts 10min/level, and if you're holding it like a torch, it can quickly be covered/uncovered. You can get a lot of use out of a spell like that.

[Mightypion]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

Dancing lights vs light

Both spells are indeed somewhat different and have somewhat different uses. Light can be used on, for example a skull, in combination with mage hand to make a pretty good impersonation of some flying skull (ideally also have ventriloqism). A level 1 party could semi credibly pull off bluffing to be a demi lich :).

I prefer dancing lights for signaling purposes. You can chose how many dancing lights you have, if no other signal is available, send up 3 dancing lights straight into the night sky for "good mission completed" or 4 dancing lights for "NEEED HALP NOW" is quicker then firing 3 or for arrows with light cast on.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Also remember that Dancing Lights is only for Arcane casters (Bard, Magus, Psychic, Shaman, Sorcerer/Wizard, Witch), so if you cast Divine spells you cast Light.

Dancing Lights can simulate Will-o'-Wisps, or form up into a humanoid shape, so there's some Bluff capability there too, in a different way. I had a group of PCs use Dancing Lights, Prestidigitation and Obscuring Mist to invent "Ghost Shirt," a Scooby-Doo-like monster to unnerve a bunch of Kobolds as a distraction. With some good rolls it worked and they slipped past a potential firing squad.

Each one has its utility. My own players usually take Light just for ease of use; it's a "set it, and forget it" type of spell. I personally prefer Dancing Lights for my own characters, but again, both have their good and bad points.

[Ryze Kuja]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

marcryser wrote:

What happens if I unwind the spool? Does the entire length of wire (50') shed light in a 20' radius?

It's one object, so yes.

I read this question wrong. If you cast Light on the Wire, then yes, it would affect the entire wire. If you cast light on the spool itself, then it would only light up the spool, not the wire. Light only affects 1 object, so you would need to choose the wire or the spool.

[Melkiador]

Quote:

This spell causes a touched object to glow like a torch

I've taken this to mean that the light effects the end of the object with a glow no bigger than the size of a torch. So, if you cast it on a spool of wire, only one end of the spool would be glowing a ball of light no bigger than you'd expect from the end of a torch.

[AwesomenessDog]

Melkiador wrote:

Quote:

This spell causes a touched object to glow like a torch

I've taken this to mean that the light effects the end of the object with a glow no bigger than the size of a torch. So, if you cast it on a spool of wire, only one end of the spool would be glowing a ball of light no bigger than you'd expect from the end of a torch.

Yes it is in fact not possible to illuminate the entire world by just casting light on Golarion.

[Pizza Lord]

It actually says 'from the point touched'. Like Melkiador, I don't have an entire siege engine, castle, or even 5 foot section of wall glow.

The easiest visual I have is that the part touched glows. Either as a fingertip sized dot from a touch or at most a palm-sized circle.

I would only have one point of a rope glowing. Even if I had a PC cast it on a coiled object, when unrolled it would be at one point. Similarly I wouldn't let someone cast it on a book and then tear out pages (which doesn't destroy the book) and leave a trail of glowing paper from one cantrip.

I'd let you either have a point of light on the cover, or you place it on one page, but when you close the book it's shielded.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Want glowing pages? Did you know that Prestidigitation can create a substance/item, but that substance/item can't be useful in combat in any way? Do you further know that there's an alchemical ink that glows? So... Prestidigitate some glowing ink into existence, scribble it into some pages, then tear them and toss them for faintly glowing pages that will only last an hour.

Similarly you could use the visible version of Arcane Mark to do the same thing and the glow would last longer.

[Diego Rossi]

AwesomenessDog wrote:

Melkiador wrote:

Quote:

This spell causes a touched object to glow like a torch

I've taken this to mean that the light effects the end of the object with a glow no bigger than the size of a torch. So, if you cast it on a spool of wire, only one end of the spool would be glowing a ball of light no bigger than you'd expect from the end of a torch.

Yes it is in fact not possible to illuminate the entire world by just casting light on Golarion.

Agreed.

Plus, even if it was possible to have the whole object shed light, it, as a whole, would shed light as a torch. So a 50' wire would work as a Christmas light. Visible, but not strong enough to illuminate anything beyond 1' or so.

[Firebug]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Want glowing pages? Did you know that Prestidigitation can create a substance/item, but that substance/item can't be useful in combat in any way? Do you further know that there's an alchemical ink that glows? So... Prestidigitate some glowing ink into existence, scribble it into some pages, then tear them and toss them for faintly glowing pages that will only last an hour.

Similarly you could use the visible version of Arcane Mark to do the same thing and the glow would last longer.

Did you know that Prestidigitation explicitly cannot duplicate the effects of any spell other than what is listed? Sure, it can create (fragile and artificial looking) objects, but they can't be used as tools. Guess what type of object Glowing Ink is? An Alchemical Tool. Glowing Ink doesn't even illuminate the area as a candle(no listed mechanic), just gives a bonus on perception checks to see it and 'allows you to read it in normal darkness'.

The non-invisible version of Arcane Mark doesn't glow... at all. The invisible version glows under the influence of Detect Magic... but doesn't actually shed light (no mechanics).