Queer lore questions


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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I was hoping someone could help me:

1) who are some trans men in the Lost Omens setting? I saw mention in an old thread of an NPC in the Hell's Rebels AP being the first, but who are others? (Also what is that first trans man's name? Which parts of the AP does he appear in?)

2) are any male deities of Lost Omens gay or bi? I couldn't find anything and did see some pre-PF2 threads that might suggest there weren't any, but PF2 has been proactively redressing lacunae like that so maybe?

I have noticed that a lot of relationships between deities just name the deities involved, so it's easy for me to miss those; I'm only so-so on the Lost Omens mythology.

3) are there any trans or nonbinary deities? I know there are a bunch that support trans and nonbinary people, but curious about any who might be trans or nonbinary themselves.

Silver Crusade

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1) Rexus Victocora, he's in the first book but I haven't played it so don't know which all others he appears in. I don't know of any others immediately off the top of my head.

2) Kofusachi and Lymnieris are at the very least bi.

3) Arshea is enby.


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2) Cayden Cailean of the core 20 pantheon is heavily implied to be bi, if I remember (think this was in Gods & Magic?).

3) It may be a bit of a stretch but Gozreh is pretty lowkey genderfluid, being described as a two-aspect deity who is part sky god, part ocean goddess.

Radiant Oath

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1) One PFS Scenario has the players rescue a person presenting as a little girl. Years later, Scenario #2-09: The Seven Secrets of Dacilane Academy re-introduces the same person as a young man. If the PCs ask, J Dacilane mentions that he transioned. See https://paizo.com/products/btq026i7?Pathfinder-Society-Scenario-209-The-Sev en-Secrets-of-Dacilane-Academy for more information.

Shadow Lodge

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I seem to recall that Desna, Sarenrae, and Shayln are a long-term (even by divine standards) throuple.

Desna also had a child with Cayden, so she seems to 'swing both ways'...

Finally, Desna is the father of one of my characters, so I don't necessarily think mortal gender/orientation labels apply to divinities that may well be older than the universe itself...


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Everybody beat me here and stole my answers. Boo.


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Rysky wrote:

1) Rexus Victocora, he's in the first book but I haven't played it so don't know which all others he appears in. I don't know of any others immediately off the top of my head.

2) Kofusachi and Lymnieris are at the very least bi.

3) Arshea is enby.

Oooh, yes, yes, the lore around Arshea and Lymnieris is definitely one of the sorts of things I was hoping to find. My partner's current character in our home game is a gay trans man and these two are very much on his vibe.

I can find so little lore on Kofusachi!

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

2) Cayden Cailean of the core 20 pantheon is heavily implied to be bi, if I remember (think this was in Gods & Magic?).

3) It may be a bit of a stretch but Gozreh is pretty lowkey genderfluid, being described as a two-aspect deity who is part sky god, part ocean goddess.

I don't see anything in Cayden's Gods and Magic entry to imply he's bi, though I just have the hard copy so I can't search to see if it is mentioned elsewhere. I'll have to keep any eye out for more info on him...

Gozreh, definitely, belongs in the mix. Thanks for the reminder.

AceofMoxen wrote:
1) One PFS Scenario has the players rescue a person presenting as a little girl. Years later, Scenario #2-09: The Seven Secrets of Dacilane Academy re-introduces the same person as a young man. If the PCs ask, J Dacilane mentions that he transioned. See https://paizo.com/products/btq026i7?Pathfinder-Society-Scenario-209-The-Sev en-Secrets-of-Dacilane-Academy for more information.

Excellent--two trans guys are definitely better than one. And I do like that it sounds like his transition is presented as no big deal, just a thing he did.

Taja the Barbarian wrote:
Finally, Desna is the father of one of my characters, so I don't necessarily think mortal gender/orientation labels apply to divinities that may well be older than the universe itself...

Oh yes, I am definitely for expansively gendering / sexuality-ing divinities in play, but here I am just trying to see what resources the canon material has for me to work with.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

if I recall there is a 1e book callled Adventurers Guide and I think there is a Trans Man dwarf as a leader or high ranking member of one of the factions in that book.


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There's also a trans woman as a major supporting character in Wrath of the Righteous.


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The NPC wrote:
There's also a trans woman as a major supporting character in Wrath of the Righteous.

There's lots of trans women in the setting, but I do want to note that OP wasn't asking for them.


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My partner just pointed out that he's noticed two trans men in the Grand Bazaar as he's been reading through: Arhan Benimaya of Kraken's Ink Tattoo and Yggwil of Lost & Found.

pixierose wrote:
if I recall there is a 1e book callled Adventurers Guide and I think there is a Trans Man dwarf as a leader or high ranking member of one of the factions in that book.

This one look right to you--https://paizo.com/products/btpy9sjo?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Advent urers-Guide?


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(Also, nice to see that J Dacilane is a centerpiece character in The Seven Secrets of Dacilene Academy.)


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keftiu wrote:
The NPC wrote:
There's also a trans woman as a major supporting character in Wrath of the Righteous.
There's lots of trans women in the setting, but I do want to note that OP wasn't asking for them.

My apologies.

Paizo Employee Designer

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A couple answers that come to mind from the last year

1) Yoh Souran, one of the main NPCs from the third Fists of the Ruby Phoenix adventure, is a trans man.

3) The god Daikitsu is genderfluid.

also enjoying seeing some answers here I didn't know about!

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Shayliss Vinder of Sandpoint is genderfluid, although even as late as their entry in the Sandpoint book, I'd love to time machine back to 2018 and finesse the writing for them a bit more and recruit more help from folks to write it right.

And while I don't know that we've said in print, I'm pretty comfortable saying that Cayden is bi.

And there's for sure some more to come in the Absalom book—the enormous NPC section gave us lots of room for representation there.


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For nonbinary deities, I think a pretty good argument could be made for the Eldest Shyka, the Many, or at least that they are genderfluid, given they are composed of an unknown, but presumably enormous, number of individuals who are all nevertheless Shyka.

Dark Archive

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I think with Shyka answer is basically "yes to all possible variations" as they are the many

Radiant Oath

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
pixierose wrote:
if I recall there is a 1e book callled Adventurers Guide and I think there is a Trans Man dwarf as a leader or high ranking member of one of the factions in that book.

You are correct, specifically his name is Xomar Glavit, and he's with the Rivethun.

Incidentally, another Rivethun on the same page is a nonbinary oread named Third Rent in the Basalt. The Rivethun as a whole offers education, safety and community to trans and nonbinary people, even ones from outside dwarf society, as their teachings hold that such individuals are more naturally sensitive to the spirits of the natural world.


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James Jacobs wrote:
And while I don't know that we've said in print, I'm pretty comfortable saying that Cayden is bi.

Ooh, now who do you ship him with?

Perpdepog wrote:
For nonbinary deities, I think a pretty good argument could be made for the Eldest Shyka, the Many, or at least that they are genderfluid, given they are composed of an unknown, but presumably enormous, number of individuals who are all nevertheless Shyka.

Since Shyka is composed of discrete individuals, it seems like it can only be those individuals who are trans or nonbinary, not the whole collective.

Though it would be delightful to play Shyka as entirely composed of queer individuals, a pantheon of different modalities of queerness from across Golarion's past, present, and future. Hmm. Thanks for that thought!

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
The Rivethun as a whole offers education, safety and community to trans and nonbinary people, even ones from outside dwarf society, as their teachings hold that such individuals are more naturally sensitive to the spirits of the natural world.

Oh, right, the Rivethun--I remember seeing them mentioned somewhere before. Maybe in reference to the PF1 iconic Shardra Geltl? Thanks for reminding me of them.


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Everybody who is Shyka has to understand that this whole thing is kind of a timeshare, and that notions of gender are specific to a time and place, so they're at least going to be very chill about things like pronouns.

I'm definitely hoping we get more in PF2 about the Rivethun soon.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Everybody who is Shyka has to understand that this whole thing is kind of a timeshare, and that notions of gender are specific to a time and place, so they're at least going to be very chill about things like pronouns.

Their pronouns could switch mid-sentence, after all.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Hey everyone,

Please keep in mind the original post was simply looking to crowdsource-compile a list of canonically queer characters. A deep dive into the pros and cons of having fiction that intentionally tackles thorny real-life prejudices as a way to explore through them VS fiction that intentionally writes them out so as to provide a utopian place to escape to is a good conversation to have but is beyond the original scope of the thread and clearly splintering off.


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James Case wrote:

Hey everyone,

Please keep in mind the original post was simply looking to crowdsource-compile a list of canonically queer characters. A deep dive into the pros and cons of having fiction that intentionally tackles thorny real-life prejudices as a way to explore through them VS fiction that intentionally writes them out so as to provide a utopian place to escape to is a good conversation to have but is beyond the original scope of the thread and clearly splintering off.

Fair point.

Anyway, other queer characters I can think of--

Baron Orkerra in War for the Crown is IIRC canonically bi.

Sosiel Vaenic and Aron Kir from Wrath of the Righteous are gay men.

The Iconic Shaman is trans but I think that she was already mentioned.

There was a halfling in Mummy's Mask who I think was trans. Or maybe that was in the worldbuilding bit at the end of the book? It's been a LONG time since I took a look at Mummy's Mask.

as a general rule, if someone is mentioned as having a romantic partner, odds are pretty good they're gay or bi. I can only think of about ten trans characters off the top of my head, though.


I think some of the NPCs in book 2 of Age of Ashes are gay men. I think there is a whole subplot/miniquest to get them together. The names escape me though.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Ian G wrote:
Darth Game Master wrote:

I don't believe anyone has accused Ian G of being a bigot nor has anyone claimed that Golarion should be free from conflict (or even social conflict). I get where you're coming from, but the argument feels a bit straw-man-ish. Discrimination isn't the only possible source of conflict. There's nothing bad about wanting to have it as a thing to fight in the setting but the alternative (which I prefer, but that's beside the point) needn't be a total utopia.

As it's been requested to return to more on-topic discussion, I'm going to stop there, but I recommend this blog post about dealing with themes of oppression in RPGs and the pros/cons of different approaches:
Productive Scab-picking: On Oppressive Themes in Gaming

As simply put as I can, I don't want to buy a hugbox. Those aren't fun to me, and they don't feel alive. I want something like Star Trek or the Stormlight Archive, where the galaxy/world is a hot mess full of problems, but there's a Federation/there are Knights Radiant coming together to FIX the problems. Those feel alive and are fun to play in. It scares me that people want to (and have stated here that they want to) turn a vibrant and interesting world into a hugbox where you aren't allowed to even mention bad things in the published products, because I don't want to be left with only hugboxes or "we're ignoring the real negative consequences of this cool trope" games. (Being Indiana Jones is cool and all but I increasingly want more justification for doing that kind of adventurer-archaeologist nonsense because of the obvious negative implications) For crying out loud, even Blue Rose has countries where bad things happen as a norm, and that's a setting that is explicitly and overtly about queer romantic fantasy from Page 1 of the introduction to the last page of the index.

I have limited funds and I won't spend them on a hugbox.

DON'T PANIC (hitchikers reference, for context)

Art, and the people who make it are by their nature transgressive-- right now people are simply reveling in the representation they couldn't have before, flexing their ability to simply write these characters into existence and enjoy their presence in the story. Even as we speak, people both within Paizo, and within the larger culture are writing stories that encapsulate depth and pain, the ragged, unvarnished lens of artistic truth is present. No one can stop the depth and complexity and passion of the stories that will inevitably be created.

Arazni is a victim of abuse who is enshrouded in bitterness and vengeance now that she has broken free of it, Cheliax still has slaves and its history of colonizing its neighbors, with Abrograil Thrune still on the throne. Tyrants still walk Golarion, and people do face persecution because of who they are, there are still corrupt officials who hate Taljjae and who oppress the villages where he's known.

The urge to write and read compelling worlds and storytelling hasn't and will not go anywhere, ever-- even if the setting changes it will in turn deepen as its stewards recognize the need for new threats. we can have both cool casually queer characters with happy warmth, and darkness and conflict in our works. The very same people who write one feel a need to write the other.

The people within the movement that hurt you (like this orange hat) are not all powerful, and its tempting when we're wounded to quit the field and leave them with the power and control they've taken over you, to live in the space they push you into of being seemingly opposed. But its your movement as much as it is theirs, there are absolutely vapid people who are intoxicated with the power spaces like the one you entered give them, and abuse it, just as people abuse power wherever it can be found, but there are those of us who push and fight back. Who are willing to question it when someone shows up wrapped in the flag, hungry for power and control, but who still love the thing their posing makes a mockery of.

It is not something without us, but something that we are a part of, and can lend our own voices to, deepening its sensitivity and perspective instead of rejecting it. I for one, think we can do both, writing these queer characters, and letting them think about their identity, and talk about their identity, and then seeing how they grow and change as stories unfold. Just like Janeway on Voyager, who was a woman captain of Starfleet, but became so much more than just that 'neat' represenational win, you know? You take the small win, and then you tell the rest of the story, to make it really mean something, and I think, as much you can do that with the background lore of an RPG, that's whats happening.

___________________

Apologies to OP, but some things are important enough to meet where they are.

Paizo Employee Director of Community

I removed a number of posts in a splinter thread. Some of the posts included insults to groups of people, some were just off-topic. James is spot on with his post-up thread as to why mixing the two conversations doesn't work well. If there is interest in discussing the splinter topic of pros/cons of working prejudices out through fiction/TTRPG, I encourage you to open a different thread.Thanks!

Radiant Oath

Kelseus wrote:
I think some of the NPCs in book 2 of Age of Ashes are gay men. I think there is a whole subplot/miniquest to get them together. The names escape me though.

If we're just listing mlm, then there's a married couple in Otari. It's mentioned in abomination vaults.

Quote:

Morlibint sells other texts as well,

although he leaves the nonfiction curation to his
husband Carlthe, whose expertise makes Odd Stories
the primary source of textbooks and teaching tools for
Inkleholtz’s educational pursuits

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