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IMO the real ٩(̾●̮̮̃̾•̃̾)۶ consternation over Combat Expertise is the min-maxers have to put 13 in INT. I feel players should make well rounded PCs so it just makes me laugh.
If you're using 25-point buy, then sure, your fighter can happily drop 3 points on intelligence. 15-point buy or standard array, not so much.
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Teamwork feats have their usefulness, albeit somewhat limited.
Harrying Partners... if you don't know, look it up... write it down. Cavalier's Tactician can give it out to everyone, Order of the Dragon's Aid Allies, Combat Reflexes/Bodyguard, even better on VMC Cavalier with a class that has access to Arcane Strike/Gloves of Arcane Striking. Or someone with the Effortless Aid Invedtigator Talent... I think Inspired-Internal Alchemist VMC Cavalier is the only one that can get it all if they use the Spell Knowledge Discovery to qualify for Arcane Strike.
Certain teamwork feats like Wall of Flesh, Shield Wall, and Tandem Trip definitely have their place... I can think of several Halfling and Kobold builds that are capable of doing god's work with these feats. Even Volley Fire and Target of Opportunity and few of the other ranged/melee teamwork feats can work very well with some of those Halfling and Kobold builds. Underfoot Halfling Disciple of the Pike Cavaliers going into the Halfling Opportunist prestige class, or Kobold Swarm Fighters with Vexing Dodger UnRogue levels...
Far from the "worst feat of pathfinder"...
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Having Feat Chains isn't a problem, it's a Feature of the system to prevent cherry picking of Feats and provide some flow control(pacing) of power.
If that's an important features, why doesn't it apply to spells? A caster can cherrypick spells like Cinderella. Never cast a single buff on a party member? No problem, you can still take Haste and have the best buff spell in the entire game!
It's like a speed limit that only applies to cars from specific makers.
IMO the real ٩(̾●̮̮̃̾•̃̾)۶ consternation over Combat Expertise is the min-maxers have to put 13 in INT. I feel players should make well rounded PCs so it just makes me laugh.
This comment makes me laugh - it's the necessity to take stupid tax feats like this that prevents making well-rounded characters! They also reward min-maxers, as those can compensate for the wasted feat (and ability score investment) much better. Knowledgeable players will also find a way around (e.g. Dirty Fighting), and while rewarding system mastery is not a bad thing, it makes Combat Expertise main effect be "inexperienced or casual players don't get to play what they want".
The problem with tax feats is that they break a core principle of the game's design - that you get cool new stuff on level-up. The problem with Combat Expertise especially is it's name - it's a prereq for a ridiculous number of feats (it's the second most required feat in the game, after only Improved Unarmed Strike), most of which have absolutely nothing to do with the feat. Apparently, plenty of writers are unable to comprehend that just because a feat is called "Combat Expertise", this does not mean they have to put it into the prereqs whenever they design a feat that might be classified as making the character an expert in a form of combat.
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The notion that people somehow relate combat expertise with "playing a smart character" has always baffled me. Nobody flips an eye when a 7 int sorcerer uses his spell with perfect tactical acumen, but int 12 is not enough for LOTS of combat feats in the game (for the record, int 12 is enough for a wizard to know how to turn invisible).
Oh yeah, good point that I didn't even touch upon! If a fighter wants to do more with an attack roll than "hit them with a stick" or "stick 'em with the pointy end" needs a feat and int 13... but metamagic feats don't require a crappy feat with str 13 prereq! For anyone who thinks Combat Expertise is good because it slows power gain and makes well-rounded characters, do you homebrew such a feat as a prereq for all metamagic feats? Because if not, you're hypocritical.
I wonder how many feats have CE as a prerequisite in the books after the ACG
41, out of 109 feats in total that require it.
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The notion that people somehow relate combat expertise with "playing a smart character" has always baffled me. Nobody flips an eye when a 7 int sorcerer uses his spell with perfect tactical acumen, but int 12 is not enough for LOTS of combat feats in the game (for the record, int 12 is enough for a wizard to know how to turn invisible).Oh yeah, good point that I didn't even touch upon! If a fighter wants to do more with an attack roll than "hit them with a stick" or "stick 'em with the pointy end" needs a feat and int 13... but metamagic feats don't require a crappy feat with str 13 prereq! For anyone who thinks Combat Expertise is good because it slows power gain and makes well-rounded characters, do you homebrew such a feat as a prereq for all metamagic feats? Because if not, you're hypocritical.
I wonder how many feats have CE as a prerequisite in the books after the ACG41, out of 109 feats in total that require it.
The more I think about it, I think you guys may be on to something, here.
Int and Wis should probably have an impact on combat reflected in actual rolls. Perhaps as a Class Feature or, maybe, some bonus Feats they get automatically at certain levels (corresponding with the character's BAB).
They wouldn't be *required* but they could be leveraged by a player interested in higher Int and Wis impacts for their style of combat.
Or something like that.
It's late.
I'm tired. :)
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The notion that people somehow relate combat expertise with "playing a smart character" has always baffled me. Nobody flips an eye when a 7 int sorcerer uses his spell with perfect tactical acumen, but int 12 is not enough for LOTS of combat feats in the game (for the record, int 12 is enough for a wizard to know how to turn invisible).Oh yeah, good point that I didn't even touch upon! If a fighter wants to do more with an attack roll than "hit them with a stick" or "stick 'em with the pointy end" needs a feat and int 13... but metamagic feats don't require a crappy feat with str 13 prereq! For anyone who thinks Combat Expertise is good because it slows power gain and makes well-rounded characters, do you homebrew such a feat as a prereq for all metamagic feats? Because if not, you're hypocritical.
I wonder how many feats have CE as a prerequisite in the books after the ACG41, out of 109 feats in total that require it.The more I think about it, I think you guys may be on to something, here.
Int and Wis should probably have an impact on combat reflected in actual rolls. Perhaps as a Class Feature or, maybe, some bonus Feats they get automatically at certain levels (corresponding with the character's BAB).
They wouldn't be *required* but they could be leveraged by a player interested in higher Int and Wis impacts for their style of combat.
Or something like that.
It's late.
I'm tired. :)
hmm. gave me an idea, what would you guys say if we combine combat expertise with artful dodge into one feat.
the feat would gives BOTH the above feats benefits and is used for any feat and such that require ether of them, or for that matter dodge, as artful dodge can replace it. (like how some homebrew for feat tax combine dodge and mobility). this would make C.E. more compelling and offer easier build options for higher int builds. also make people kinda happy to pick C.E.Prerequisites: Int 13.
Benefit: If you are the only character threatening an opponent, you gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC against that opponent.
Special: The Artful Dodge feat acts as the Dodge feat for the purpose of satisfying prerequisites that require Dodge. You can use Intelligence, rather than Dexterity, for feats with a minimum Dexterity prerequisite.
Prerequisites: Int 13.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the dodge bonus increases by +1. You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon. The effects of this feat last until your next turn.
or just make artful dodge also work as C.E. for requirements. then people would take C.E. only if they intend on using it instead of how now they only pick it for filling requirements.
i think feat trees should have each feat brnig something useful or needed to the table. look at how the spit venom feat tree works. or the improved and greater X maneuver feat tree work.
a feat tree in which later feats replace the former feats or have redundant but required feats in it are just wasteful.
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Huh... how is it that I never knew Artful Dodge allowed Intelligence to replace Dexterity for prerequisites?
That is freaking fantastic. I need to rethink some of my builds... as that literally changes everything. Ranger Combat Style feats are no longer the only real way to access TWF feats without the Dex... options, I love options. Human bonus feat can straight up trade Intelligence for Dexterity prerquisites... that is good news.
Please, give me more worst feats in Pathfinder... one man's trash is another man's treasure.
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oh. i never said artful dodge was trash.
it's in the more awesome feats list, i just thought that 2 feats that improve your ac because your int is 13+ can be combined, since one of them (c.E) is literally a feat sink.
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Slashing Grace is not going to help much on a low-Dex build... yay, the Dexterity that is too low to qualify for feats will be added to my damage! Lol.
No, it's all about options. It doesn't even have to be game-breaking awesome in any mechanical sense. Honestly, I probably suck at this game, and don't understand words good... some things allow a character to just suddenly make sense [to me]. It all clicks, even if it doesn't increase damage per round stats, or whatever it is that people might care about.
Dexterity is hardly ever a stat I neglect... I don't believe in dump stats, and don't allow players at my table to start with any stats below an 8... so, it is far more likely that minimum Dex requirements will be met. The special benefit Artful Dodge offers would seldom, if ever, be actually necessary. But having the option is nice.
Characters that would benefit the most are rare, indeed... but there are some Alchemist, Investigator, Slayer, cRogue, Magus builds... there's a Sanguine Angel strength-based archer discipline that might want Manyshot... there's a Style or two that use Intelligence... a few VMC options might be able to better use Intelligence-based features...
Like I said, I'm not good at this game... every option I just mentioned is probably subpar in direct murderhobo combat. And I am ok with that... not every character I build needs to be a superhero... most of the characters I build will only ever see a second of play as NPC's, anyways. And it is way more important [to me] to have characters with flavor, especially when their screentime is limited. No matter how min/max-murderhobo I make enemy NPC's, the party is going to kill them... so you have to find other ways to make characters memorable.
Every character I have played has never once caused the party to suffer due to inadequate performance in combat. I may not be hitting the hardest, but I always hit. I am always mobile. I am always helpful. Artful Dodge would not have helped any of the characters I have actually played, though. It's not something that I see myself using in any character I plan on playing any time soon, either. But that doesn't mean I cannot fully appreciate what Artful Dodge offers with its special benefit.
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Whoa there cowboy, let's think this through for a sec.
The Venn diagram of builds that have need of high intelligence, are strength based, and need to fulfill high dexterity prerequisites has a very small intersection. I agree that it doesn't change much but it does provide opportunity where there was none.
The +Str/+Int races are very rare, only surpassed in scarcity by the +Str/+Dex combo. Artful Dodge would allow for Str/TWF builds that doesn't involve slashing your point buy or taking levels of specific classes.
A practical example of when it's useful is a Brawler 2/Occultist X that can now pick up ITWF to get two additional attacks with their flurry instead of one, which is valuable as their Legacy Weapon focus power only affects a single weapon.