| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
The forum also has moderation tools. The issue is they're not being used.
Discord is also famously awful for any kind of permanent conversation space or preservation, not helped by their absolutely abysmal search tools (plus if they do move forward with their very stupid decision to start working with crypto they're going to probably collapse when the crypto bubble bursts and that's no good for anyone).
Discord is also probably gonna get bought out by Microsoft or Google or someone and go to the pits pretty soon, let's be honest. But really, that doesn't matter. Discord conversations are very different from forum conversations, and I think forum conversations are way better at handling complex topics such as these and reducing, if not completely eliminating, the pointless nitpicking we lot are known for.
I like the forums. I love the forums. The idea of shutting them down to me is... alien. You might as well suggest Paizo shut down Pathfinder. The forums have been there for me for over a decade. The forums are Paizo to me. They're home. I would be devastated, and I doubt I'd ever buy anything from Paizo ever again. It's a community. You can't shut that down just because the idea of banning more people is scary.
Pineapple on pizza...trans women are women...To be fair, I think most arguments are more nuanced than that and both sides have valid and invalid points.
TwilightKnight, you should know quite well how delicate this topic is. Don't drop an ambiguous point like that without clarifying it extensively; it's only going to lead to trouble. Vague appeals to "nuance", without actual substance to them, come across as incredibly disingenuous at best and dogwhistled transphobia at worst, and I'm not eager to make those charges against you. What do you mean? What is an example of an invalid point on the "trans women are women" side, or a valid point on the "no they aren't" side?
Personally, I think the idea is nonsense. There are no valid points on the side of the transphobes. Just because a lot of people believe in it doesn't mean it has validity; it just means a lot of people are good at turning their hatred into an ideology. Conflating the two is incredibly dangerous.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There are absolutely no valid points on the side of "trans women are not women". Get that crap out of here.
If that is what you got from my comment, you clearly missed the point.
For @#%$ sake people, I said most arguments WERE NOT LIKE THOSE, they are more nuanced. That is in response to the OP focusing on the type of argument that is obvious and clear. Its not an equitable comparison. No where did I suggest that trans women are not women. Some of y'all are just looking for perceived meaning so that you can call it out.
There (arguably) may need to be more moderation in the forums but there is also a need for a higher level of reading comprehension and academic analysis.
|
Jim Butler was promoted.Or they can advance 2 employees to VP, one who has not even been there a year.Clarification...I believe that they were both hired into VP roles.
Hired as VP in 2017. The VP position was added to the Leadership team recently. It's sort of a technical question whether that's a promotion or not, but he was hired as VP.
As was Mike Webb, back in July.
It was a promotion. I believe he was head of marketing and sales before that.
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
Holy s%@%, reading that made me feel so gross inside. The forums aren't cancerous. What nihilistic... not-nice-word. Imagine if critics of Paizo had declared, "This company is clearly an apple rotten to the core. It must be shut down or abandoned immediately." It's too far.
At the risk of attempting to introduce an analogy to an argument, shutting down the forums would be more like shooting a dog because he has fleas. Look, I get being tired or frustrated or burnt out, but we have every right to appeal for better moderation and for making this place better. We do not need to give in to this kind of despairing drivel.
I'm sorry if I seem angry here, but that's actually one of the most offensive things I've seen today, as someone who dearly loves these forums despite their many flaws. It also seems really disrespectful towards those of us who've been targeted much worse than you--someone literally called for Cori to get doxxed, and she's still trying to make these forums better, so where do you get off declaring the whole place condemned for demolition?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
There are absolutely no valid points on the side of "trans women are not women". Get that crap out of here.If that is what you got from my comment, you clearly missed the point.
For @#%$ sake people, I said most arguments WERE NOT LIKE THOSE, they are more nuanced. That is in response to the OP focusing on the type of argument that is obvious and clear. Its not an equitable comparison. No where did I suggest that trans women are not women. Some of y'all are just looking for perceived meaning so that you can call it out.
There (arguably) may need to be more moderation in the forums but there is also a need for a higher level of reading comprehension and academic analysis.
Maybe you should have thought about what you were posting before you hit post, then, because you wrote the exact opposite of that to my eyes. If multiple people read it that way, the problem is probably with how you wrote it, king.
|
|
Every source I can find says what the link above does: That Jim was hired as VP back in 2017. Before that he was Senior Director of Global Marketing at Trion Worlds.It was a promotion. I believe he was head of marketing and sales before that.Jim Butler was promoted.Or they can advance 2 employees to VP, one who has not even been there a year.Clarification...I believe that they were both hired into VP roles.
Hired as VP in 2017. The VP position was added to the Leadership team recently. It's sort of a technical question whether that's a promotion or not, but he was hired as VP.
As was Mike Webb, back in July.
Sorry, I think I am not being clear. Mr. Butler was hired as VP of Marketing and Sales a few years back. The executive team position is a promotion. Mr. Webb was hired into the executive position. Sorry for the confusion.
| 12 people marked this as a favorite. |
There are absolutely no valid points on the side of "trans women are not women". Get that crap out of here.If that is what you got from my comment, you clearly missed the point.
For @#%$ sake people, I said most arguments WERE NOT LIKE THOSE, they are more nuanced. That is in response to the OP focusing on the type of argument that is obvious and clear. Its not an equitable comparison. No where did I suggest that trans women are not women. Some of y'all are just looking for perceived meaning so that you can call it out.
There (arguably) may need to be more moderation in the forums but there is also a need for a higher level of reading comprehension and academic analysis.
I assumed you just missed my post, but I think you're actually responding to it as well here, so I'll elaborate.
Communication is a two-way street. You posted a short, vague message that two people misread--and I was still doing my best to read you in good faith, so maybe consider that your message was a little ambiguous. It's okay to just say, "Sorry, I could have been more clear. I meant x, not y." This is a sensitive subject, as you know, and many people have without a trace of irony declared there to be shades of gray to transphobia, even on these very forums.
You'll pardon us for misunderstanding you--we did, that's our bad--but we both know the context is fraught as hell, and lashing out at two trans posters for misreading an easily-misread message isn't cool.
The idea someone else posted that we're "addicted" to conflict really makes me uncomfortable. I'm actually pretty miserable here. This is not where I want to be, but I want to help as much as I can.
Every day, someone else posts their bitterness about how mean and aggressive and unforgiving and stupid and oversensitive and politically correct trans Paizonians are, and we're forced to defend our right to... defend our rights, and it turns into a horrible argument as that person almost gleefully insults our manners, our intelligence, our good faith and our character while insisting we're the ones starting pointless fights about b#!~~+$&.
Stop starting fights about how we start too many fights.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe you should have thought about what you were posting before you hit post, then, because you wrote the exact opposite of that to my eyes. If multiple people read it that way, the problem is probably with how you wrote it, king.
I say what I mean and mean what I say. I will never accept responsibility for how someone else decides to interpret what I say. I suppose that is another point we can disagree on. I am happy to expound on a comment I have made if asked, but less so if I am accused of saying something I didn't.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Go back and read your post from the point of view of somebody who is consistently subjected to the argument that trans women aren't women. Can you see how your post is a bit ambiguous about *which* arguments you're saying are more nuanced and have valid points on both sides?
And when you're consistently on the receiving end of people saying you shouldn't exist (and just recently, that you should be lynched), can you see how an ambiguous statement is likely to be seen in the worst light?
Beautifully put.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
At the risk of attempting to introduce an analogy to an argument, shutting down the forums would be more like shooting a dog because he has fleas. Look, I get being tired or frustrated or burnt out, but we have every right to appeal for better moderation and for making this place better. We do not need to give in to this kind of despairing drivel.
"What do you *mean*, the dog needs feeding *every* day? We can't just leave it over the weekend? Sorry, Rover, time to go..."
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
At the risk of attempting to introduce an analogy to an argument
Oh, please stop doing that. We both know that analogies are almost always interpreted so widely that they don't contribute to clarity. I might be cross-posting, I honestly cannot recall, but we really should stop using analogies in contested discussions.
okay.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am filled with screaming.
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe you should have thought about what you were posting before you hit post, then, because you wrote the exact opposite of that to my eyes. If multiple people read it that way, the problem is probably with how you wrote it, king.I say what I mean and mean what I say. I will never accept responsibility for how someone else decides to interpret what I say. I suppose that is another point we can disagree on. I am happy to expound on a comment I have made if asked, but less so if I am accused of saying something I didn't.
Make an effort, dude. Don't blame me for interpreting something easily read as transphobic as transphobic. If you mean what you say, you should try and actually be clear about it.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Tonya, I appreciate the well thought out post. Genuinely. Please understand that when I (and I assume I speak for others) decry the lack of moderation, it is in no way a personal attack on the CS team; I certainly understand you guys are just workers, same as anyone else. It is primarily an expression of dismay towards policies and enforcement.
I appreciate your statement, and I understand that you, too, want what's best for the forums. And hey, learning takes time. Learning can be hard! There is just so, so much out there to be aware of. (too much.)
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
At the risk of attempting to introduce an analogy to an argumentOh, please stop doing that. We both know that analogies are almost always interpreted so widely that they don't contribute to clarity. I might be cross-posting, I honestly cannot recall, but we really should stop using analogies in contested discussions.
Then read deeper into my words that followed. The analogy was only the thesis statement, not the body. ;)
I think the messageboards are worth it. They are what made Pathfinder a success--literally, I really doubt Pathfinder would exist without them, which means the D&D hobby as we know it today might not exist without them, either. They continue to be essentially synonymous with the company to many, many people, and they're a huge source of user feedback as well as future talent.
If someone doesn't think the messageboards are worth it, that's fine. I do. Deeply and profoundly. This is a community that deserves better.
Reminder to everyone who disagrees with the OP (and Rysky's sister thread): This thread's requests stem from our having dealt with numerous blatant trolls over the last few months who have made threats of doxxing and harassed primarily minority community members. Many of us, your friends and neighbors, have been made to feel unsafe or uncomfortable on these forums of late. Remember that that is what you are replying to. If you are going to disagree, remember exactly what you're disagreeing with and make sure you aren't leaving room for misunderstandings. This thread exists because certain subsections of these forums have been absolutely hell for us for the last two months.
First, thank you Tonya, you have been nothing but gracious in the face of a job that is clearly very strenuous.
Second, I think you should push for a raise :). If asked why, just point at one of the many contentious threads, then at who ever decides on raises, raise eyebrows, repeat.
Thank you, Tonya. I think that was very well-put.
I didn't mean to use a swearword to exacerbate an argument or to goad someone, only to convey the depth of how difficult these arguments have been at times. It wasn't meant to be directed at anyone in particular. I also didn't know that the "ing" wouldn't be censored, leading to a much clearer cuss than I expected. I'll be more mindful in the future. :P
Anyways, even if hiring a full moderation team is not in the cards--and likely not up to Tonya, let's be real, here--there are changes that can be made to make the forums safer. Hopefully some of them are already being undertaken.
|
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
I say what I mean and mean what I say. I will never accept responsibility for how someone else decides to interpret what I say. I suppose that is another point we can disagree on. I am happy to expound on a comment I have made if asked, but less so if I am accused of saying something I didn't.
Do you understand that part of being an effective communicator is considering your audience? That the words we write here do not exist in a vacuum, devoid of all other context?
Edit: Tonya, please believe me when I say I feel for you and your colleagues. I've been the person trying to manage a forum in turmoil and do not envy the position you are in.
Contributor
|
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am with Kobold Cleaver on this one. The forums are home. I'd rather we found a way to slow down the jerks -- or even pick up some volunteer mods -- than to burn them to the ground.
The forums are a great place for memory. Discord conversations are fun in the present moment, but I feel they are too fleeting.
Hmm
EDIT: I have now read Tonya's post and am glad that our precious forums are not going away. I think there are things that we all could do to raise the signal / noise ratio and not feed the trolls. I should make a post on that!
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
At the risk of attempting to introduce an analogy to an argumentOh, please stop doing that. We both know that analogies are almost always interpreted so widely that they don't contribute to clarity. I might be cross-posting, I honestly cannot recall, but we really should stop using analogies in contested discussions.
In one post you say you refuse to clarify and in the next you demand it.
Be consistent. Or not. Really it is up to you and your blood pressure.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Tsk. Then without the graphic imaging:
While I keep out of the main discussion, because just no thank you, I want to emphatically say that removing the forums is an incredibly terrible idea.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
see. guys.... After it was removed I honestly did not know what post Heather was referencing....
Now.... Now I remember it.... and likely I won't be able to get it out of my head either.... not because of what it said. But because NOW with Heather's post I am tieing it to smoothies and now it is even more graphic....
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
see. guys.... After it was removed I honestly did not know what post Heather was referencing....
Now.... Now I remember it.... and likely I won't be able to get it out of my head either.... not because of what it said. But because NOW with Heather's post I am tieing it to smoothies and now it is even more graphic....
Got a hankerin for some bangers and mash with a buerre rouge sauce, now?
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Brain bleach for Heather STAT!!
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
You know, apropos of nothing, I like this bit here. It acknowledges how "torches and pitchforks" comments tend to function as a form of trolling, and how this, combined with their repetitiveness and the way they are used to dismiss sometimes critical issues, makes them pretty unhelpful to building the civil discourse many say they want.
We're all sold out of torches and pitchforks. It's flashlights and shovels that are all the rage now. As in, sneaking into a graveyard in the dead of night to dig up and reanimate an army of dead rhetorical devices.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe you should have thought about what you were posting before you hit post, then, because you wrote the exact opposite of that to my eyes. If multiple people read it that way, the problem is probably with how you wrote it, king.I say what I mean and mean what I say. I will never accept responsibility for how someone else decides to interpret what I say. I suppose that is another point we can disagree on. I am happy to expound on a comment I have made if asked, but less so if I am accused of saying something I didn't.
If there is a miscommunication (as opposed to somebody being deliberately deceptive) then the vast majority of the time BOTH sides were at least partially to blame. One side was less clear than they thought they were, the other side read things into the post that weren't there.
I do NOT think that you were being deliberately deceptive. But I AM saying that you were less clear than you thought you were. Just do the mature thing and own up to that and move on.
I will ALWAYS at least consider taking responsibility when somebody misinterprets what I said. Most of the time I WAS being less than 100% clear. Some of the time I think I was clear and they misread but even then I'll generally restate my point so as to just avoid the argument (the exception being when I think the person is quite deliberately misinterpreting me).
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I do NOT think that you were being deliberately deceptive. But I AM saying that you were less clear than you thought you were. Just do the mature thing and own up to that and move on.
Agree to disagree. My original comment was as clear as I felt it needed to be. There is always going to be someone that can/will misinterpret what is said. It is inevitable. It is up to the audience to indicate they need clarification, not always jump to the worst possible interpretation. If they accuse the speaker of what they interpreted, forcing the speaker to not only clarify the original commentary but to defend their perspective, it is the audience not the speaker who has something to "own up to."
I do not claim to be the "best" speaker* there is, and everyone can improve their skill, but there is a good number of people in this community that could really do with a refresher course or two on how to conduct public discourse and the fundamental rules of debate.
*I don't always agree with BigNorseWolf's perspectives, but one thing they are generally really good at is academic analysis and logic vs simply how they "feel" about something or their political bias. The latter very often being the source of most of the forum conflicts.
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
It is up to the audience to indicate they need clarification
oh but a girl posts ONE metaphor and suddenly we're all in this together partner
In all seriousness, starting a little squabble over how people didn't properly interpret your one-sentence comment--which was, by the way, off-topic to begin with and nitpicking at Saedar's original very clear point for no real reason--is not how you demonstrate superior communication skills.
There will always be people who misinterpret you on the internet. Get used to clarifying without insulting our intelligence repeatedly.
Did you notice how HMM, when she wanted to spread awareness about how to communicate more effectively, started her own thread and offered practical tips, rather than telling us "go take a communications course"? That's the difference between constructive advice and insulting people who were making every effort to bridge the gap.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
And it’s only the privileged who can talk about bigotry as an issue of academic analysis and logic. The people who have to live them don’t have that luxury.