Creative Director
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I just hope "whatever is happening to Geb is not something that the players (out of character) would be rooting for to happen." Since that was kind of a problem in Hell's Vengeance (but not in other evil friendly APs like Reign of Winter, Skull & Shackles, and Strange Aeons.)
In theroy, the plot of ANY Adventure Path is something the players would be rooting for to happen. Note that this is very different than "ALL" potential players.
Not every storyline will appeal to every player. Trust me, if I knew how to create stories that everyone liked all the time, I would have been doing these long ago and we wouldn't be having this sort of discussion.
Sometimes we do better than other times, but sometimes we'll create Adventure Paths that simply won't appeal to the majority.
Certainly I hope that the majority of folks enjoy the Blood Lords Adventure Path, but I hope that for everything we publish. It doesn't always work out that way.
The Geb Adventure Path doesn't assume your party is evil, but if they are, it certainly won't mind. It's set in an evil nation, though, so characters who are eager to defeat an evil nation like Geb would be no more appropriate than those eager to, say, uphold Cheliax's government in "Hell's Rebels" or seek to stop piracy and play "Skull & Shackles."
Which is to say, you could play Blood Lords with good characters, but your GM will need to do a lot of work in adjusting the plot.
If you DO want to play a campaign where your PCs fight against the rulers of Geb and try to bring an end to the nation , then the Blood Lords Adventure Path will absolutely give your GM a lot of stat blocks and locations and NPCs that they can use as a significant stepping stone toward a campaign of their own design though... and that's a use that I feel like folks often forget that an Adventure Path can provide: A GM who wants to and has the time to build their own campaign can use a similarly-themed Adventure Path as, essentially, a nearly 600 page sourcebook to draw material from to build their plots and encounters. In this way, you could build a "play evil characters who take down the Silver Ravens of Ravounel" campaign out of "Hell's Rebels," or a " Defeat the leader of the Shackles" campaign out of Skull & Shackles with a fair amount of work, but not NEARLY as much work as it would take to start from scratch.
As for further details on the Blood Lords Adventure Path... we're months away from starting to drum things up there. Remember, there's two more Adventure Paths and one more Kingmaker to start pumping folks up for before we get to Blood Lords!
We'll get there, but it'll be several months is what I'm saying.
This sounds super cool, I'm excited to GM it in whatever form it takes. Very interested in the plot that doesn't require Evil but is a hard sell for Good. Thanks for the info!
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I just hope "whatever is happening to Geb is not something that the players (out of character) would be rooting for to happen." Since that was kind of a problem in Hell's Vengeance (but not in other evil friendly APs like Reign of Winter, Skull & Shackles, and Strange Aeons.)This is something I’m curious to see as well. Geb being threatened feels like a good thing, y’know? I suppose “prevent a war with Nex that would likely devastate the entire region” fits the bill, but I’m unsure if this will be that story.
The country of Geb is LE. It trades with its neighbours and is actually the source of much foodstuff in the area, including for Nex and Alkenstar.
If its order was shattered and it went down a CE Might makes right spiral, the whole region could descend into terrifying violence and famine.
I would like an AP where the enemies are a mix of unalduterated bad guys and deluded / misguided would-be good guys. It would be something different I think.
I wonder whether the Knights of Lastwall will play a part in this AP.
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I don't know that they'd want to make the Knights of Lastwall antagonists so soon after releasing a big shiny book meant to tempt players into wanting to be one. I'm also not sure how easy it would be to sell "stop the anti-undead holy warriors from overthrowing a regime that eats its slaves" to folks.
Very curious to see this thing take shape, and I'm super excited to see Outlaws of Alkenstar in the meantime.
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I don't know that they'd want to make the Knights of Lastwall antagonists so soon after releasing a big shiny book meant to tempt players into wanting to be one. I'm also not sure how easy it would be to sell "stop the anti-undead holy warriors from overthrowing a regime that eats its slaves" to folks.
Very curious to see this thing take shape, and I'm super excited to see Outlaws of Alkenstar in the meantime.
Why wouldn't they, that worked out so well in Hell's Vengeance XD
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Like there's a whole bunch of Blood Lords, right? Some of them are like living necromancers, and some of them are like "kinds of undead that don't need to eat living people". So something I would be interested in doing in Geb is "freeing the living thralls to the extent that is possible."
Like there's a whole bunch of Blood Lords, right? Some of them are like living necromancers, and some of them are like "kinds of undead that don't need to eat living people". So something I would be interested in doing in Geb is "freeing the living thralls to the extent that is possible."
I don't think an AP that we've said will be difficult for Good PCs is going to be one that sees much reform to Geb, or any at all, if I'm being honest. My hope is that the AP is about preventing the outbreak of war, but we really just don't have enough info to speculate on much.
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Why wouldn't they, that worked out so well in Hell's Vengeance XDI don't know that they'd want to make the Knights of Lastwall antagonists so soon after releasing a big shiny book meant to tempt players into wanting to be one. I'm also not sure how easy it would be to sell "stop the anti-undead holy warriors from overthrowing a regime that eats its slaves" to folks.
Very curious to see this thing take shape, and I'm super excited to see Outlaws of Alkenstar in the meantime.
Yer sarcasm aside, that is second reasons why it would be weird if they did that: It would be repeating Hell's Vengeance essentially.
Like it makes much more sense that main antagonist is either someone from Nex or internal faction in Geb OR just dealing with Geb's shenanigans
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I don't know that they'd want to make the Knights of Lastwall antagonists so soon after releasing a big shiny book meant to tempt players into wanting to be one. I'm also not sure how easy it would be to sell "stop the anti-undead holy warriors from overthrowing a regime that eats its slaves" to folks.
Very curious to see this thing take shape, and I'm super excited to see Outlaws of Alkenstar in the meantime.
Maybe the Gebbites actually need help only the Knights of Lastwall can provide. It could be a way for the Knights to compensate for the unholy mess their first and last interaction with Geb made.
You know, the whole We are so Good and powerful, let's send a strike team to assassinate a head of state thousands of miles away just because he is the ghost of a necromancer.
Even better if Tar-Baphon is involved, since beating him is what gave the Knights their hubris of Let's erase what we don't like in this world.
Or maybe we should stop having Iomedaens and the Knights of Lastwall Job for PCs. Wouldn't that be special? Maybe let some of those "We're totally not the Harpers" organizations cause problems that need to be eliminated.
Indeed, like the Pathfinder Society, Andor etc…
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I just hope "whatever is happening to Geb is not something that the players (out of character) would be rooting for to happen." Since that was kind of a problem in Hell's Vengeance (but not in other evil friendly APs like Reign of Winter, Skull & Shackles, and Strange Aeons.)In theroy, the plot of ANY Adventure Path is something the players would be rooting for to happen. Note that this is very different than "ALL" potential players.
Not every storyline will appeal to every player. Trust me, if I knew how to create stories that everyone liked all the time, I would have been doing these long ago and we wouldn't be having this sort of discussion.
Sometimes we do better than other times, but sometimes we'll create Adventure Paths that simply won't appeal to the majority.
Certainly I hope that the majority of folks enjoy the Blood Lords Adventure Path, but I hope that for everything we publish. It doesn't always work out that way.
extremely curious: would it be fair to say that Blood Lords is a spiritual sequel to Tyrant's Grasp?
Ooh, how about a spiritual succesor to Giantslayer, called Dragonslayer? Steps would need to be taken to avoid the repetitive combats from the latter half of the former AP, but a six part AP where you're trying to stop a warmongering lizard build an army of dragons could be pretty sweet.
Also, I can't put my finger on it, but it seems PF2 has a greater focus on Norgorber as a primary antagonist (he seems to be cropping up a lot), so maybe we'll see a 'Take down Norgorber' AP at some point. Maybe.
Or a three part Assassins Guild/Dark Brotherhood AP where you enact Norgorber's murderous will. I'll take either. :D
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Ooh, how about a spiritual succesor to Giantslayer, called Dragonslayer? Steps would need to be taken to avoid the repetitive combats from the latter half of the former AP, but a six part AP where you're trying to stop a warmongering lizard build an army of dragons could be pretty sweet.Its only a little funny to me, but by my last count, Giantslayer also has the most dragons in it than any other AP Paizo has published so far.
But really, Age of Ashes is pretty close to a Dragonslaying AP thematically, even if there isn't that much actual dragon murder.
This is all just my theory, but I think Lost Omens: Legends was a big book of potential AP teases. The Choral the Conqueror stuff about him, dragons, and the likely splitting of Brevoy back into two states seems like one that would be a fun story to tell, especially if the team has the hankering for some very classic European fantasy.
(The other plotline from that book I’m absolutely desperate for is the “the Veiled Masters are up to Something that involves Rahadoum, Thuvia, and Katapesh,” which just sounds so so SO fun!)
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Creative Director
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We've come close a few times to a "Dragonslaying" Adventure Path, but every time, it crashed and burned. The "slay the dragon" plot is a classic example of a story that works better as a single adventure rather than a 6 part one, because doing that story 6 times in a row gets repetitive, and having just one dragon to slay in an Adventure Path results in the five adventures before it NOT being part of a Dragonslaying Adventure Path.
Giants work fine in that model because giants have a legacy of being a "mob" enemy. Dragons are SO deeply rooted in the "one big boss" storyline that you really have to redefine their role from the ground up to do something different with them. As a result, for many years whenever we put a dragon into an adventure in Dungeon magazine and that dragon wasn't the main boss of the adventure, we'd get angry mail and complaints about "wasting" a dragon in a side encounter.
Add to that the simple fact that Wizards of the Coast has been leaning in HARD on the "dragonslaying" plots for their big adventures, for decades. It helps that the word "dragon" is in their name. But that does mean that, on a personal note, I've really not been super interested in pursuing an "off brand" Dragonlance or Dragon Mountain or War of Scales or Red Hand of Doom or insert-classic-D&D-Dragonslaying-adventure-here thing for Adventure Paths as well.
Which is why, when I was tasked with relaunching the standalone adventure line several years ago, I went with the plot that became "The Dragon's Demand."
When we launched 2nd edition, we were super nervous about the reception, and were facing a MUCH stronger D&D than we were when we launched 1st edition, and so there was a pretty strong push from the powers that be to include dragons as foes in our first 2nd edition Adventure Path. But the problems I mention above didn't magically vanish with an edition change.
The result is my best stab at building a "dragonslaying" adventure path with Age of Ashes, which isn't "slay a dragon every volume" so much as a "deal with the repercussions of a single dragon" for the course of a campaign. Being able to hitch that story to a dragon that didn't feel like he was kidnapped from Dragonlance or Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk or Eberron or Dark Sun or (etc) was a nice benefit, for sure.
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TBH, I kind of like tussling with cosmic horrors, or algolthu, or the undead, mean wizards, or outsiders more than I like basing a campaign around a dragon.
The one thing I'm still itching to see is a real plane hopping AP.
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I know that they're supposed to be scary and alien and everything, but I look at aboleths and just imagine them flopping around on the ground like a catfish and I think...'These are the shadowy cabal that almost brought the world to ruin?'(The other plotline from that book I’m absolutely desperate for is the “the Veiled Masters are up to Something that involves Rahadoum, Thuvia, and Katapesh,” which just sounds so so SO fun!)I really like the Veiled Masters as a villainous group and would love to see something done with them. Ruins of Azlant gave us a taste of the kinds of wide-reaching schemes they can be part of, and that particular master had been locked in stasis for a couple thousand years.
I mean, “horrible alien things lurk in the ocean deep” was enough to put us into decades of Lovecraft imitators; the bottom of the sea is scary, and hard to reach, so it’s a good hiding place for a horror and a master manipulator both. I thiiink LO: Legends has one in human form, if that helps?
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The one thing I'm still itching to see is a real plane hopping AP.
This is /begging/ to be an 11-20 three-volume AP. I hope Ruby Phoenix did well enough to get another one made, though I see the appeal of the 1-10s.
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We've come close a few times to a "Dragonslaying" Adventure Path, but every time, it crashed and burned. The "slay the dragon" plot is a classic example of a story that works better as a single adventure rather than a 6 part one, because doing that story 6 times in a row gets repetitive, and having just one dragon to slay in an Adventure Path results in the five adventures before it NOT being part of a Dragonslaying Adventure Path.
Giants work fine in that model because giants have a legacy of being a "mob" enemy. Dragons are SO deeply rooted in the "one big boss" storyline that you really have to redefine their role from the ground up to do something different with them. As a result, for many years whenever we put a dragon into an adventure in Dungeon magazine and that dragon wasn't the main boss of the adventure, we'd get angry mail and complaints about "wasting" a dragon in a side encounter.
Add to that the simple fact that Wizards of the Coast has been leaning in HARD on the "dragonslaying" plots for their big adventures, for decades. It helps that the word "dragon" is in their name. But that does mean that, on a personal note, I've really not been super interested in pursuing an "off brand" Dragonlance or Dragon Mountain or War of Scales or Red Hand of Doom or insert-classic-D&D-Dragonslaying-adventure-here thing for Adventure Paths as well.
Which is why, when I was tasked with relaunching the standalone adventure line several years ago, I went with the plot that became "The Dragon's Demand."
When we launched 2nd edition, we were super nervous about the reception, and were facing a MUCH stronger D&D than we were when we launched 1st edition, and so there was a pretty strong push from the powers that be to include dragons as foes in our first 2nd edition Adventure Path. But the problems I mention above didn't magically vanish with an edition change.
The result is my best stab at building a "dragonslaying" adventure path with Age of Ashes, which isn't "slay a dragon every volume" so much as...
this is just my 2 cents, but Paizo did a bang-up job w/ Age of Ashes.
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I mean, “horrible alien things lurk in the ocean deep” was enough to put us into decades of Lovecraft imitators; the bottom of the sea is scary, and hard to reach, so it’s a good hiding place for a horror and a master manipulator both. I thiiink LO: Legends has one in human form, if that helps?There's a backmatter article in one the APs that has a list of Veiled Masters running about. Or is it Rakshasas? Maybe there's one of each.
But, I mean, yeah. There's all sorts of reasons why they are actually scary and a threat. The primordial fear of the unknown and under the water eerily cunning cephalopods are biding their time before they take over the planet.
It makes sense in universe. Paizo has done the work to legitimately portray them as a very real threat. I just think they're silly looking.
Yes, the final or semi-final Ruins of Azlant has a listing of some Veiled Masters.
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TBH, I kind of like tussling with cosmic horrors, or algolthu, or the undead, mean wizards, or outsiders more than I like basing a campaign around a dragon.
The one thing I'm still itching to see is a real plane hopping AP.
Same here. I don't think it'd work as well for lower-level adventures, but an adventure that involves going to multiple planar metropolises would be great. The City of Brass, Dis, Shadow Absalom, etc.
And of course my personal favorite, the Island of Misfit Outsiders.
Playing weirdos coming together to protect Basrakal from some threat would be a delight!
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I think problem with literal dragon slaying ap is that it would require readers to accept the non true dragons as good enough for dragon purposes :p
Like drakes and such are already really dangerous dragons, but people tend to kinda look down on any dragon without "true"(TM) moniker
(I'd be completely okay with dragon fighting ap that is about increasingly weird and rare dragon types)
I know that they're supposed to be scary and alien and everything, but I look at aboleths and just imagine them flopping around on the ground like a catfish and I think...'These are the shadowy cabal that almost brought the world to ruin?'(The other plotline from that book I’m absolutely desperate for is the “the Veiled Masters are up to Something that involves Rahadoum, Thuvia, and Katapesh,” which just sounds so so SO fun!)I really like the Veiled Masters as a villainous group and would love to see something done with them. Ruins of Azlant gave us a taste of the kinds of wide-reaching schemes they can be part of, and that particular master had been locked in stasis for a couple thousand years.
I keep them in the water, or indeed veiled masters can change shape (iirc). Indeed flip flopping on land makes them a bit less impressive / scary. However I do very much like how paizo did the Aboleths…
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I could see a Dragon nurturing AP. An AP that puts PCs square in the middle of Dragon society and schemes in a position where they can have a great impact on the course of Dragon history.
Something like War for the Crown maybe, but based on Dragons.
Or an AP about the antediluvian dragon-eating predator that has been stirring recently. How the dragons in the area (or on the whole planet) would react collectively to such a shared threat could change the way they interact with the world in any direction. And the PCs could influence this with their actions.
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Dreamworks spun three movies and a tv show out of the dragon nurturing concept, so an AP is possible. Each PC could go from claiming an egg, to raising an infant dragon, to riding it into battle against a formidable foe!
Or a dragon plague/sickness that is decimating the world's dragon population? Actually, that could be one book in a dragon nurturing/riding AP.
Book 1: Get egg, raise infant dragon.
Book 2: Dragons are getting sick! Stop the plague.
Book 3: The plague was an attempt to weaken dragon riders before attack, fight off the formidable foe!
Ooh, getting a real Temeraire/His Majesty's Dragon vibe off that.
Well, yes. But also: dragons in Golarion aren't known to be domesticated.
So I don't know if the dragon nurturing concept is something Paizo would want to tackle.
Well, yes. But also: dragons in Golarion aren't known to be domesticated.
So I don't know if the dragon nurturing concept is something Paizo would want to tackle.
Domesticated is possibly the wrong word here, I'm envisioning more of a mutual bond between mount (be that a dragon or something else) and rider, such as the relationship between Laurence and Temeraire, Hiccup and Toothless or Last Shadow and Jake Sully, etc...
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My impressions of the APs thus far.
Age of Ashes: This one scratches two long-held itches. I wanted an "across the Inner Sea" AP, and this delivers. I was also curious about Hermea, and we finally get answers. Where it falls down was in how each volume is supposed to be themed around a core ancestry. In that respect it's something like the original Star Trek movies; only the even ones hit the mark (not that #6 was really about humans in any meaningful way, but it is the climax and I somewhat expected that with the humanity installment anyway).
Extinction Curse: There are two very different ideas here, and they don't exactly mesh very well. The circus plot would work better as a 1-10, and the actual Extinction Curse plot would be better as an 11-20. We've had morally uncomfortable APs before, but this is the most uncomfortable yet (barring Hell's Vengeance, of course). I realize that's part of the point, but still.
Agents of Edgewatch: I was surprised when it was announced, but I figured that it would be in the vein of the Discworld City Watch subseries so I didn't really have a problem with it. That... isn't exactly what we got, to put it mildly. It is quite well done for what it is, and I appreciate the internal corruption angle, but I'd want to rework it if I ever ran it.
Extinction Curse: It is very well done, and I'm glad it did so well. It is also not for me. I can get in to a megadungeon (I love me some Undermountain), but the low levels keep it from getting big enough and weird enough to capture my attention. More power to the fans. I found it was a bit of a slog, especially because I was champing at the bit for...
Fists of the Ruby Phoenix: I knew I would love it. I just didn't expect how much. It's an anime/manga tournament arc in a TTRPG, and it leans in to what higher level characters cab do. I caught the potential sequel hook, and I am over the moon. Coming out of it, I was fairly sure that I wouldn't be this thrilled over an AP for a while to come, and then came...
Strength of Thousands: Wow. Wow. I want to withhold judgment, because it's possible that the last book will be such a letdown that it ruins the AP, and yet... And yet. I've wanted a Magaambya AP for a very long time now, so I'm thrilled to get it and doubly thrilled that 5 out of 6 parts are so very strong. I love the structure. For me, the fact that we spend so much time focusing on things other than the main plot is an absolute strength. It lets us get a look at what the Magaambya actually does. If we get any more organization focused APs, I would want them to take notes.
And now for the upcoming APs.
Quest for the Frozen Flame: This is the first "half" AP that is really experimental. AV is a tried-and-true megadungeon, and FotRP is a sequel to an adventure. This has my attention. The concept works at lower levels better than AV does, and we know comparatively little about the Realm of the Mammoth Lords. Plus, if I were to play in it I know more or less exactly what I would want to play, and that doesn't happen too often.
Outlaws of Alkenstar: Into. My. Veins. QftFF grabs me much more than AV, and this grabs me even more than QftFF. It looks like it can be run by heroic and antiheroic characters alike (maybe a bit easier for the latter, but it's basically a Western, so...) and I really like that. I am already aboard the hype train, is what I'm saying.
Blood Lords: We know very little about it at this point. I'm assuming that, while evil friendly, it won't be another Hell's Vengeance. I admit I'm not too terribly stoked for this one compared to the last few, but I'll give it a shot. The undead PC angle has possibilities, and I hope it's good.
Dreamworks spun three movies and a tv show out of the dragon nurturing concept, so an AP is possible. Each PC could go from claiming an egg, to raising an infant dragon, to riding it into battle against a formidable foe!
Or a dragon plague/sickness that is decimating the world's dragon population? Actually, that could be one book in a dragon nurturing/riding AP.
Book 1: Get egg, raise infant dragon.
Book 2: Dragons are getting sick! Stop the plague.
Book 3: The plague was an attempt to weaken dragon riders before attack, fight off the formidable foe!Ooh, getting a real Temeraire/His Majesty's Dragon vibe off that.
Council of Dragons the Pathfinder edition…..
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Outlaws of Alkenstar looks like an absolute slam dunk. I’m dying to see it.
Domesticated is possibly the wrong word here, I'm envisioning more of a mutual bond between mount (be that a dragon or something else) and rider, such as the relationship between Laurence and Temeraire, Hiccup and Toothless or Last Shadow and Jake Sully, etc...Well, yes. But also: dragons in Golarion aren't known to be domesticated.
So I don't know if the dragon nurturing concept is something Paizo would want to tackle.
Sure, I used that word for a reason.
Because even in the Temeraire books, most of the other dragons aren't treated as equals. Temeraire has to fight for them to be treated better.
In Avatar, the wild 'dragons' and 'horses' have to be domesticated by bonding with them. I don't know if they are treated as buddies, or more like horses or pets. Yeah Jake treats Last Shadow well, but that's the departure from the norm, as far as I remember.
That is very different from the Golarion I know.
I don't know if Golarion has any examples of dragons being in such a relationship with a humanoid. Maybe in the Dragon Empires?
I do think the other way around is canon, with a dragon 'herding' or nuturing humanoids.
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As I was saying, maybe in the Dragon Empires such a 'dragon buddy' AP makes more sense. I'm not that trained in Tian Xia lore.
WotR: I haven't made it that far in the game, a small bug is grinding my progress to a halt right now. Maybe a spoiler there?
My experience as having 1e high level burn out as result of wrath plus several other high level campaigns and my 2e jade regent conversion is that lot parts of 1e really do work better in 2e x'D Including mass mook encounters oddly enough (it's mostly because of action economy feeling more dynamic)
Agreed,
I'm reading wrath of the righteous right now with the goal of translating it to pf2e.
Complete with creating the mythic system as a free archetype alternate variant.
Because it's a good story and less of a nightmare to run in 2e