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I've skimmed Secrets of Magic, but I haven't had the chance to read through it in-depth. Did this book include a clear, unambiguous answer as to whether you can use a higher-level spell slot for a lower-level spell when you're casting spontaneously? And I don't mean heightening spells or signature spells; I'm talking about being in the situation where you need to use a low-level spell (say, 1st-level Feather Fall) that you DON'T know as a signature spell and you are (for whatever reason) out of 1st-level slots and you still have plenty of higher level slots.
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I thought the answer has been, "No, that's why you have signature spells."
But I don't know if SoM addresses it or not.
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No, it's a book about adding new magic related content and systems to the game, not an errata document. Answering a FAQ doesn't add anything new or expand upon anything.
FAQs are important, but new books aren't really a good mechanism for answering them. (especially as you shouldn't have to buy a new book to clarify how a rule from a previous book works).
The summoner in Secrets of Magic has all known spells as signature spells, so they missed any chance to address that issue with the new classes.
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I don't think there is any need for clarification. The Core Rulebook does not specify that you can do this, so you can't. The fact that it was possible in an older edition of the game has no bearing on the issue.
If this page of AoN is to be believed you can to any spell.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=273
"A prepared spellcaster can heighten a spell by preparing it in a higher-level slot than its normal spell level, while a spontaneous spellcaster can heighten a spell by casting it using a higher-level spell slot, so long as they know the spell at that level (see Heightened Spontaneous Spells below). When you heighten your spell, the spell’s level increases to match the higher level of the spell slot you’ve prepared it in or used to cast it. This is useful for any spell, because some effects, such as counteracting, depend on the spell’s level.
In addition, many spells have additional specific benefits when they are heightened, such as increased damage."
The heightened benefit is a bonus not the intended heightened effect.
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I agree it's a limitation of spontaneous spell casters. If your spell isn't a signature spell, no matter if it has a heighten or not you cannot use any other spell slot unless you also has it in your repertory for those level.
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On a similar note, was there ever an answer to "I am a spontaneous caster casting Dimension Door from a 5th level slot; can I have the 4th level effect?"
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I don't think there is any need for clarification. The Core Rulebook does not specify that you can do this, so you can't. The fact that it was possible in an older edition of the game has no bearing on the issue.
Not just an older edition of the game, but almost all of them in recent memory (3rd, 3.5, P1E, Starfinder, and 5E), but that's beside the point. It's allowed or not allowed based on hyper-specific parsings of such phrases as "a slot of AN appropriate level" (rather than "of THE appropriate level"). Also, some spells gain no benefit from being heightened other than being more difficult to counteract and so forth. BUT, a spell is heightened based on the spell slot used to fuel it, rather than what level you know it at. So either there needs to be such language as "you can lower a higher spell slot for a lower level slot, which you can then use for your lower level spell", or it becomes possible to circumvent your cap on signature spells known (but this only becomes apparent via a roundabout reading of the rules). And a clear rule wouldn't need this much interpretation to figure out how it's supposed to go, in either direction.
So I disagree that this didn't need clarification; especially since I and others were asking about this since Day One.
Also we have this, which might (but, granted, due to not being specific enough, might not) be asking the same question that Jason Bulmahn is answering in the affirmative (with a very short answer that doesn't ensure that his response to that question is applicable to this one, even though it might be). Hence why I asked about an UNambiguous clarification.
But thanks everyone for letting me know. I asked because of this thread, where it was suggested that Dark Archives might be an opportunity to refine/clarify Recall Knowledge. I was initially going to lament that Paizo had such an opportunity with SoM and passed on it, but I knew I didn't know for sure whether SoM had clarified if you could spend a higher level slot on a non-signature lower level spell. And now I do, even though I remain disappointed that this hasn't been addressed yet, years later (unambiguously anyway, wish though I do that we could just go with Jason's reddit post).
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I've read the book quite thoroughly and didn't see any such clarifications. There were a number of abilities that obliquely hinted that it was possible, but every time I brought it to the forums as evidence in favor of using lower level spell slots, it was shot down by disbelievers.
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Just makes me wish they had gone with the 5E casting paradigm for PF2. Makes everything so much easier.
Just makes me wish they had gone with the 5E casting paradigm for PF2. Makes everything so much easier.
We're halfway there with prep casters and flex casting, just no such love for spontaneous casters (yet; unless we're already there too, in which case, it'd be damned nice to KNOW).
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Let's clarify, this issue only affects spontaneous casters in the sense that prepared caster have to prepare their spells, and since they can put any number of spells in their book (limited by cost) they either have the spell and can prepare it at a given level or don't.
Spontaneous casters might on the fly, realize they have a really specific spell known at a level but don't have any of those slots available to cast from. You might like to cast that lower level spell out of a higher level slot with no benefit, just to be able to cast it. But unless you have a spell as a signature spell, you can't do so. And if you could it would partially invalidate the capability of signature spell.
If you want to always have a spell available, I suggest grabbing wands, scrolls, or staves that include it.
I've read the book quite thoroughly and didn't see any such clarifications. There were a number of abilities that obliquely hinted that it was possible, but every time I brought it to the forums as evidence in favor of using lower level spell slots, it was shot down by disbelievers.
Frankly, if the disbelievers do not accept Jason's answer on this question, they are impossible to convince. In the context that his answer is given, there really is no way to interpret it other than that he meant to say yes, you can use a higher level slot to cast a spell that you know only at a lower level. There is nothing else that he could have been saying yes to.
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I've read the book quite thoroughly and didn't see any such clarifications. There were a number of abilities that obliquely hinted that it was possible, but every time I brought it to the forums as evidence in favor of using lower level spell slots, it was shot down by disbelievers.Frankly, if the disbelievers do not accept Jason's answer on this question, they are impossible to convince. In the context that his answer is given, there really is no way to interpret it other than that he meant to say yes, you can use a higher level slot to cast a spell that you know only at a lower level. There is nothing else that he could have been saying yes to.
Where was it ever said that you could cast a 1st level spell from a 4th level slot? All I've ever seen is that you have to heighten the 1st level spell to 4th to cast it.
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Where was it ever said that you could cast a 1st level spell from a 4th level slot? All I've ever seen is that you have to heighten the 1st level spell to 4th to cast it.I've read the book quite thoroughly and didn't see any such clarifications. There were a number of abilities that obliquely hinted that it was possible, but every time I brought it to the forums as evidence in favor of using lower level spell slots, it was shot down by disbelievers.Frankly, if the disbelievers do not accept Jason's answer on this question, they are impossible to convince. In the context that his answer is given, there really is no way to interpret it other than that he meant to say yes, you can use a higher level slot to cast a spell that you know only at a lower level. There is nothing else that he could have been saying yes to.
I also felt the same in the answer you can cast a 1st level spell in a 4th level slot. As long as you heighten it. That was always in the rules. Just the act of casting a spell in a different slot is heightening it.
"When you heighten your spell, the spell’s level increases to match the higher level of the spell slot you’ve prepared it in or used to cast it. This is useful for any spell, because some effects, such as counteracting, depend on the spell’s level."
It isn't that you can't cast it is if you do. You are heightening.
The rule to cast spells in different slots is heightening them, there's no rule for casting lower level spells on higher slots without heightening.
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The rule to cast spells in different slots is heightening them...
Care to cite a source for that? I've only seen internal rules for that regarding specific prepared casters, but not as a general rule.
...there's no rule for casting lower level spells on higher slots without heightening.
This is true enough, though it may well be the case because the developers thought it went without saying.
CR299:
Both prepared and spontaneous spellcasters can cast a spell at a higher spell level than that listed for the spell. This is called heightening the spell.
Thanks, but by itself, that doesn't disprove anything.
Rules generally elaborate after the opening sentence too. It's generally best practice not to quote things in a contextless vacuum.
CR299:
Both prepared and spontaneous spellcasters can cast a spell at a higher spell level than that listed for the spell. This is called heightening the spell.Thanks, but by itself, that doesn't disprove anything.
Rules generally elaborate after the opening sentence too. It's generally best practice not to quote things in a contextless vacuum.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=273
It shows that the way to cast spells on higher level slots is heightening.
Since it shows no other way I guess currently is no with a maybe if bullman says you can do it in a more clear fashion explaining how...
The rule to cast spells in different slots is heightening them...Care to cite a source for that? I've only seen internal rules for that regarding specific prepared casters, but not as a general rule.
...there's no rule for casting lower level spells on higher slots without heightening.This is true enough, though it may well be the case because the developers thought it went without saying.
Well by raw it's a hard no currently by Rai it seems closer to no than a yes. But if you take the quote from Jason it might work but he never explained how... Do you need to learn the spell at that level without heightening, do you need to prepare it at that level? Do you not... I would probably err on caution for now.
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Yeah, considering some of the examples provided, if they did intend to let you cast out of higher level spell slot (with no benefit because you don't know the spell at that level) it seems like it would have been included in the example.
Don't get me wrong, 90% of the time it's going to be worthless.
But that 10% of the time when you really need a certain spell to save your ass it will be more than enough.
Your GM can decide whether or not they want that to happen.