Expansive spellstrike

[thenobledrake]

Lelomenia wrote:

...have to prepare attack spells (which are generally bad) in your few precious slots.

They are significantly less "bad" due to the mechanics of Spellstrike than they are when used without it.

[pauljathome]

I'm building an archer magus and one huge advantage of the expansive spellstrike is that now all my spells have a quite long range.

For a Starlit Span magus Expansive spellstrike is very, very good

[Kelseus]

Expansive Spellstrike might also be good for a Elf Wizard MC Magus. By level 6 you can have Expansive Spellstrike and you can use it to place your cones farther away, or use your bow's range instead of the very short 30 ft most spells give. As long as it's not a crit miss your spell still goes off, so your very slow proficiency advancement doesn't really matter.

[Unicore]

I will say expansive spell strike is much better on full casters that want to dabble with having a weapon attack thrown in there, but you have to be careful with your attack rolls because critical misses will kill the spell.

I will try to deep dive the math next week, but people are definitely underestimating how good spell attack roll spells paired with a D8 or better weapon will be when you spell strike with only one roll. Hero points or true strike massively mitigate the not doing damage on a miss, especially for your powerful spell slot spells. Compare acid arrow with a D12 2 handed weapon and sudden bolt with one. Having to not critically miss And have the target make a save quickly digs away at DPR, especially since the truestrike/hero point does nothing about the second roll.

[Guntermench]

MC Investigator for Devise a Stratagem as well.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Like I said, for me, it’s more about flexibility, and getting more use out of my MC slots, than it is about stopping power.

Adding a weapon strike to a slow, or a dimensional anchor out of my Studious Spell slots, ain’t too shabby.

[Kelseus]

A level 6 wizard with longbow proficiency should have a +13 to hit (18 dex, trained, +1 rune). This is only 2 less than an equal level (non-fighter) martial (19 dex, expert, +1 rune), and actually one above a normal spell attack roll (19 int, trained).

Aside on Wizards:

As an aside level 5 & 6 is a weird spot where the wizard would be better off spellstriking with acid arrow (+12 or 13) than using a spell attack roll b/c of the +1 rune to hit. Straight Spell attacks get better at level 7 (expert spells). At level 11, a wizard will have expert attacks, so this is again better by 1 (19 dex, expert, +2 rune vs. 20 int, expert). At level 15, spell attack is equal to spellstrike (20 dex, expert, +2 rune vs. 21 int, master). At 16 spellstrike is better b/c of +3 rune, but then at 17 if you have apex item in Int spellstrike pulls even and stays ahead (20 dex, expert, +3 rune vs. 23 int, master).

Even a level 8 monster with high AC is only at 27, meaning the above level 6 wizard has to roll a 4 or lower to crit fail, and that 20% miss chance might be worth staying 60+ feet away from a moderate encounter. (level 8 creature does average of 22 damage per hit, elf wizard has maybe 42 hps, and possibly as low as 36, and will be crit on a 12 or better).

[Unicore]

Kelseus wrote:

A level 6 wizard with longbow proficiency should have a +13 to hit (18 dex, trained, +1 rune). This is only 2 less than an equal level (non-fighter) martial (19 dex, expert, +1 rune), and actually one above a normal spell attack roll (19 int, trained).

** spoiler omitted **

Even a level 8 monster with high AC is only at 27, meaning the above level 6 wizard has to roll a 4 or lower to crit fail, and that 20% miss chance might be worth staying 60+ feet away from a moderate encounter. (level 8 creature does average of 22 damage per hit, elf wizard has maybe 42 hps, and possibly as low as 36, and will be crit on a 12 or better).

yeah, (and I do like the idea of expansive strike on a full caster), but having a 20% miss chance on top of the enemy getting a saving throw against your spell is really going to pummel you. Reach is probably a much better way to keep your distance. Especially as MC spell strike can't get the ranged hybrid study benefits.

[Xenocrat]

Kelseus wrote:

Expansive Spellstrike might also be good for a Elf Wizard MC Magus. By level 6 you can have Expansive Spellstrike and you can use it to place your cones farther away, or use your bow's range instead of the very short 30 ft most spells give. As long as it's not a crit miss your spell still goes off, so your very slow proficiency advancement doesn't really matter.

I don’t think MC magus can get ranged spellstrike.

[Xenocrat]

Guntermench wrote:

MC Investigator for Devise a Stratagem as well.

This is good on ranged magus with more than one potential target, but maybe not otherwise. Definitely not on a staff magus, who can just true strike a bunch with a staff of divination.

[Guntermench]

Xenocrat wrote:

Guntermench wrote:

MC Investigator for Devise a Stratagem as well.

This is good on ranged magus with more than one potential target, but maybe not otherwise. Definitely not on a staff magus, who can just true strike a bunch with a staff of divination.

Well, this would let you have a staff for other things since it wouldn't need True Strike.

[lightwitch]

Personally, I think that this is a solidly mediocre level 2 feat which allows a Magus a lot more versatility in terms of offensive spells, but doesn't make them much better at using them. It's definitely an improvement as to not having it if you so desire to cast AoE spells, but neither does it overshadow other options.
At the very least, you get some solid action economy AoE damage, much earlier and (in top slots) more damaging than other classes options for AoE. But it isn't so good that my next Magus will take it over the more thematic for her Force Fang.

[aobst128]

Based on the wording of the feat, could a ranged magus cast cone and line spells "backwards" or sideways relative to themselves. It says you choose the source adjacent to your target, and the target must be in the area. If true, that makes cone and line spells significantly more versatile with expansive spellstrike.

[Unicore]

I ran numbers (math badly written in spoilers below) and even with sudden bolt getting an extra d12, Spell strike with shocking grasp is better DPR than Sudden Bolt.

At level 3 vs all average numbers for level 3 monster, (the best case scenario for expanded spell strike for this comparison) the numbers on shocking grasp as a level 2 spell comes out to:

Average DPR: 26.175

while sudden bolt comes to

average DPR: 25.51475

They are close, but they get worse and worse for sudden bolt as the magus gets item bonuses to attack rolls and has their weapon proficiency progression increase at an accelerated rate in comparison to their saves.

AND this is costing the saving throw targeting Magus a feat to do so. I understand that most people are talking about this feat as something for utility and AoE and not single target damage, but it is important to understand how the math of attack and save is really not kind to the magus and they are a poor stand in for a full caster when it comes to casting spells that target saves.

Also, I let the magus have a Spell DC of 19 which was one too high, so my numbers for sudden burst should be even lower.

The math:

My math

Lvl 3

Ave monster stats: AC 19 save +9 55 hp

Magus with maul and level 2 shocking grasp vs Magus with sudden bolt maul

This is an unfair example because we are giving the save magus a free feat. We should also compare this to the numbers at lvl 4 and then again at level 5, level 7, level 13, level 17.

Lvl 3 magi has +9 attack with a re-roll if necessary (this is a nova ability they have gone with true strike or hero point to make it land.

Grasper +9 vs AC 19 is 50/50 or 5/45/45/5. On a crit miss or miss, they are going to reroll with the same numbers

10/400 / 81/400 / 269/400 / 40/ 400

.025 / .2025 / .6725 / .1

D12+4 +3d12 = 30 ave

0+0+ (.6725*30)+ (.1*60)

20.175+6

Average DPR: 26.175

For the sudden bolt:

.05 / .45 / .45 / .05
Reroll a miss is actually a bad idea here as you could crit fail on the reroll

.0025 / .45+(.5*.45) / .45+(.5*.45) / .05+ (.05*.05)

.0025 / .45+.0225 = .4725 / .4725 / .0525

Save

.05 / .5 / .4 / .05

4d12 = 26

D12+4 = 10.5

0+ 6.5 + 10.4 + 2.6 = 19.5

0 + .4725*19.5= 9.21375 + .4725*(19.5+10.5)= 14.175 +.0525*(21+19.5)= 2.126

DPR: 25.51475

[aobst128]

Changing the origin point of cone, line and emanation spells makes expansive spellstrike a good choice for ranged magus's. Other than that, striking and casting as normal has the same overall action economy as expansive spellstrike. It allows you to be more flexible with the 3 actions it takes but it still Costs 3 actions in the end, until you get the 10th level feat that allows you to recharge for free, then expansive spellstrike becomes much better.

[graystone]

aobst128 wrote:

Changing the origin point of cone, line and emanation spells makes expansive spellstrike a good choice for ranged magus's. Other than that, striking and casting as normal has the same overall action economy as expansive spellstrike.

Not just starlit but any reach option has it too.

Myself, most ideas I have for the magus would include the feat. Meteoric Spellstrike is a nice option that combines nicely with it: you can have the area of the spell overlap with the line from Meteoric. You also can add your weapon's range to the target to the spell: you could hit a target 100' with a lightning bolt that goes another 120'. But even things like lines/cones are easier with just a reach with the option of starting square including those that you'd not normally be able to get to.

[aobst128]

graystone wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

Meteoric Spellstrike is a nice option that combines nicely with it: you can have the area of the spell overlap with the line from Meteoric.

Do you have the option to either use yourself or the target as the origin? Or can you actually cast a line spell backwards towards you from the traget? The wording is a little strange. Says you pick a square adjacent to the target to be the source.

[graystone]

aobst128 wrote:

graystone wrote:

Meteoric Spellstrike is a nice option that combines nicely with it: you can have the area of the spell overlap with the line from Meteoric.

Do you have the option to either use yourself or the target as the origin? Or can you actually cast a line spell backwards towards you from the traget? The wording is a little strange. Says you pick a square adjacent to the target to be the source.

You sure can: if you use the square directly behind the target, it's "adjacent to the target": there is no limitation on the square past "adjacent". So I can shoot someone 70' away with a spellstrike with a cone of cold with a 60' cone coming back towards me this way. This is also a handy way to deal with cover: Starlit Eyes can help you hit the target behind cover that's concealed/hidden with the spellstrike Strike and then your starting point for the spell is there so no cover for the spell. It's pretty cool to start your spell from the target instead of from you.

Another interesting thing would be to hit a flying target and using the square above it as the starting space: you now turned your cone into a burst on the ground underneath your target. Or shoot it vertically to use a cone in the air without you flying.

[aobst128]

Nice

[Thunder999]

Using it with cones or lines is nice in theory, but I just don't see a magus actually using line or cone spells much to begin with.

[BretI]

I think that the usefulness of the Expansive Spellstrike is highly dependent on your Hybrid Study. I would expect it to be most useful for Starlit Span or Twisting Tree styles since both of those allow you to strike at range. For Twisting Tree the Lunging Spellstirke (at level 10) would work well with this.

I doubt that I would ever use it with someone who took the other Hybrid Studies in SoM.

I also wouldn’t be looking to use this against the BBEG since the chances of hitting them and spell success is much lower. Using something like Grim Tendrils with it to clear some mooks / minions would work a lot better.

[Temperans]

I expect most Magus to have 2 strike, 1 buff, and 1 really good versatile utility. Or a series of good buff spells 1 for each encounter. Using cantrips for spellstrike.

[aobst128]

Thunder999 wrote:

Using it with cones or lines is nice in theory, but I just don't see a magus actually using line or cone spells much to begin with.

They've got just as much reason to use them as a wizard. You'd do more damage to a single target with a standard attack spell but the when the time arises, maneuvering a cone behind enemy lines could be just the right move. You'd probably have just 1 or 2 prepared or have scrolls for scroll striker for it though.

[Xenocrat]

aobst128 wrote:

Thunder999 wrote:

Using it with cones or lines is nice in theory, but I just don't see a magus actually using line or cone spells much to begin with.

They've got just as much reason to use them as a wizard. You'd do more damage to a single target with a standard attack spell but the when the time arises, maneuvering a cone behind enemy lines could be just the right move. You'd probably have just 1 or 2 prepared or have scrolls for scroll striker for it though.

Their save DCs are much less reason to use them than a wizard. You can ignore this and have a 10 intelligence otherwise.

[Unicore]

Having looked closer at the math, and realizing that expansive spell strikers will only want to use hero points on critical failures and not functionally benefit from true strike much at all, it does seem like the odds of crit failing spell slot spell strike attack roles will be pretty slim, but at level 5, your spell DC is probably 3 behind your weapon attack. Magi with spell attack rolls actually have a pretty decent chance of hitting even boss/level +2 or 3 enemies while monsters start getting pretty good chances of crit succeeding on saves vs the magus. It takes spell slots to target multiple different saves effectively with AoE. Targeting the wrong save is going to be rough on the magus.

[aobst128]

Xenocrat wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

Thunder999 wrote:

Using it with cones or lines is nice in theory, but I just don't see a magus actually using line or cone spells much to begin with.

They've got just as much reason to use them as a wizard. You'd do more damage to a single target with a standard attack spell but the when the time arises, maneuvering a cone behind enemy lines could be just the right move. You'd probably have just 1 or 2 prepared or have scrolls for scroll striker for it though.

Their save DCs are much less reason to use them than a wizard. You can ignore this and have a 10 intelligence otherwise.

Decent reason, but there's plenty of spells you'd be missing out on. This use of spellstrike I think justifies expansive spellstrike. It gives more options with essentially the best area metamagic ability

[Temperans]

its hardly more options, except for ranged Magus. At which point all you are doing is playing an Eldritch Archer without any of the feats that archetype gives.

In fact an Eldritch Archer would be a much better use of feats than Expansive Spellstrike for most ranged Magus. Of course, it wont help Gun or thrown Magus, but those don't really seem like they are supported well in the first place.

[Malk_Content]

Temperans wrote:

its hardly more options, except for ranged Magus. At which point all you are doing is playing an Eldritch Archer without any of the feats that archetype gives.

In fact an Eldritch Archer would be a much better use of feats than Expansive Spellstrike for most ranged Magus. Of course, it wont help Gun or thrown Magus, but those don't really seem like they are supported well in the first place.

Except Eldritch archer consumes your archetype choice, starts at level 6 instead of level 2 AND doesn't actually let you use your bow with non attack spells so doesn't even do it at all.

[Temperans]

Malk_Content wrote:

Temperans wrote:

its hardly more options, except for ranged Magus. At which point all you are doing is playing an Eldritch Archer without any of the feats that archetype gives.

In fact an Eldritch Archer would be a much better use of feats than Expansive Spellstrike for most ranged Magus. Of course, it wont help Gun or thrown Magus, but those don't really seem like they are supported well in the first place.

Except Eldritch archer consumes your archetype choice, starts at level 6 instead of level 2 AND doesn't actually let you use your bow with non attack spells so doesn't even do it at all.

Right, well time to apologize for remembering wrong. The 1 time I feel confident in my memory I got the thing flipped.

[aobst128]

Temperans wrote:

Right, well time to apologize for remembering wrong. The 1 time I feel confident in my memory I got the thing flipped.

Lol. It happens. But yeah, ranged magus definitely makes the most use out of expansive spellstrike, specifically with line and cone spells. Melee magus can certainly do without it.

[aobst128]

I will bring the GUNGUS to fruition. Once guns and gears releases. Action economy be damned. Cast magnetic acceleration for HYPERSPEED BULLETS.

[Lelomenia]

Xenocrat wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

Thunder999 wrote:

Using it with cones or lines is nice in theory, but I just don't see a magus actually using line or cone spells much to begin with.

They've got just as much reason to use them as a wizard. You'd do more damage to a single target with a standard attack spell but the when the time arises, maneuvering a cone behind enemy lines could be just the right move. You'd probably have just 1 or 2 prepared or have scrolls for scroll striker for it though.

Their save DCs are much less reason to use them than a wizard. You can ignore this and have a 10 intelligence otherwise.

their save DC with Int as your secondary ability is on average about 1 point behind wizard. It’s not really crippling, but if you want to dump Int (Champion etc archetype maybe), that’s certainly workable.

I’m generally more interested in Expansive for AoE spells, which are situationally spectacular, than single target save spells, which aren’t that exciting.

[Unicore]

How many times per battle do you need to AoE with a spell strike? I think this style of magus will yield best results as a wizard MCing in to magus.

You saves will be stronger, you will have so many more spells to cast, and not crit failing will be easier to do, because you can memorize a bunch more true strikes if you find that helpful. It is true you won’t get to be ranged with your weapon, but reach still works, so a general or ancestry feat on weapon can still enable it.

I think a lot of people are underestimating how ho-hum even AoE save spells from spell slots can be if they target a strong defense or do a resisted damage type. Wizards get around this by targeting weak saves and doing damage enemies are weak against.

Definitely try it out the ideas you are most excited about, and report back how it feels in play! Situational feats can be a lot of fun, but the more of your build you sink into them when you can’t use that specialization as often as you hoped, the more I see players getting frustrated.

[pauljathome]

Unicore wrote:

How many times per battle do you need to AoE with a spell strike? I think this style of magus will yield best results as a wizard MCing in to magus.

I think that misses the point that the typical bread and butter action of the Magus is still spell strike+ cantrip for quite good single target damage. That is where you beat the wizard. Consistent single target damage.

The wizard gets one cool spell strike a combat, the magus gets 4 cool spell strikes a day. Magus strikes better, wizard gets better saves. Probably balanced on average, each being better some of the time.

Of course the wizard beats you in all the ways that a wizard beats a fighter. I think the Magus (full class and archetype) is balanced, neither over nor under powered.

[Unicore]

I agree that the Magus is a well balanced class that is a strong single target striker. Counter to the vast majority of PF2 classes and design though, the magus can actually get themselves into some trouble trying to diversify what they can do, trying to be prepared for every situation, because they get so few spell slots. The OP of this thread asked if Expansive spellstrike was a mandatory feat, and my concern about it is that it can easily look like a great option that will guide you down a path of making choices that lean away from doing what a magus does best. The “Bread and Butter” analogy can be misleading because a lot of magus builds will probably spellstrike every other round at best and probably only once a combat (maybe only once a day) with an AoE spell EVEN if they have this feat.

As far as accuracy goes, I think it best to focus more on the magus’ own accuracy with weapon attacks vs spell DC to see that adding another roll with a suboptimal DC is more often going to lead to middling effects that the promise of an extra weapon hit won’t make awesome, in comparison to attack and spell attack with a single roll benefiting from item bonuses and both benefiting from reroll opportunities and flanking.

[aobst128]

Unicore wrote:

How many times per battle do you need to AoE with a spell strike? I think this style of magus will yield best results as a wizard MCing in to magus.

You saves will be stronger, you will have so many more spells to cast, and not crit failing will be easier to do, because you can memorize a bunch more true strikes if you find that helpful. It is true you won’t get to be ranged with your weapon, but reach still works, so a general or ancestry feat on weapon can still enable it.

I think a lot of people are underestimating how ho-hum even AoE save spells from spell slots can be if they target a strong defense or do a resisted damage type. Wizards get around this by targeting weak saves and doing damage enemies are weak against.

Definitely try it out the ideas you are most excited about, and report back how it feels in play! Situational feats can be a lot of fun, but the more of your build you sink into them when you can’t use that specialization as often as you hoped, the more I see players getting frustrated.

I think you're missing the point of the strength of this option. It's not about the extra damage you would do with strikes, it's about how you can cast cones and lines backwards and sideways within your first range increment. That immediately makes those spells significantly more versatile. Wizard/magus can't pull that off. It's not a necessary feat to take definitely and melee magus's probably will be disappointed with it, but it's a decent option for ranged if you have the int for it.

[Ventnor]

aobst128 wrote:

Unicore wrote:

How many times per battle do you need to AoE with a spell strike? I think this style of magus will yield best results as a wizard MCing in to magus.

You saves will be stronger, you will have so many more spells to cast, and not crit failing will be easier to do, because you can memorize a bunch more true strikes if you find that helpful. It is true you won’t get to be ranged with your weapon, but reach still works, so a general or ancestry feat on weapon can still enable it.

I think a lot of people are underestimating how ho-hum even AoE save spells from spell slots can be if they target a strong defense or do a resisted damage type. Wizards get around this by targeting weak saves and doing damage enemies are weak against.

Definitely try it out the ideas you are most excited about, and report back how it feels in play! Situational feats can be a lot of fun, but the more of your build you sink into them when you can’t use that specialization as often as you hoped, the more I see players getting frustrated.

I think you're missing the point of the strength of this option. It's not about the extra damage you would do with strikes, it's about how you can cast cones and lines backwards and sideways within your first range increment. That immediately makes those spells significantly more versatile. Wizard/magus can't pull that off. It's not a necessary feat to take definitely and melee magus's probably will be disappointed with it, but it's a decent option for ranged if you have the int for it.

It’s probably not a bad pick for Magi who can expand their melee reach, like those who use pole arms.

[graystone]

Unicore wrote:

How many times per battle do you need to AoE with a spell strike?

Depends. How many minions or swarms do you see and what is the location? How much cover? How are they positioned and how close are they to you? If you regularly meet large numbers of lesser foes that start off at long rage, the ability to do chilling spray, burning hands, color spray or shock wave at 100' away could be quite handy. It might not be an option to use every fight but it's a nice option in your quiver.

This of course works out best when you have more spells to lean on. For instance a multiclass, fused staff or attached scroll, ect. In a game with lots of water, even the ability to use spout at 100' allows for a long ranged burst cantrip.

[Xenocrat]

Note that the Backfire Mantle magic item in SoM is useful to a Magus who wants to fireball someone in melee - it grants a circumstance (not status/item) bonus to reflex saves and some flat resistance to your own spells. Blow yourself up with more security.

[Lelomenia]

Xenocrat wrote:

Note that the Backfire Mantle magic item in SoM is useful to a Magus who wants to fireball someone in melee - it grants a circumstance (not status/item) bonus to reflex saves and some flat resistance to your own spells. Blow yourself up with more security.

Mantle’s resistance appears to only apply vs alchemical item splash. If i was going to do a blow-myself-up build, i’d look at Elfbane Hobgoblin, but honestly just use Cones instead of Burst.