How saves work is not explained anywhere, but they do work. See this FAQ on the topic.
the group I'm in tends to be somewhat rules lawyerly
Doesn't that remove the issue in the first place? Being a rules lawer is about following the latter of the rules. This thread is about whether or not to blatantly ignore the rules based on some pseudo-realism. That's literally the exact opposite of what a rules lawyer does.
In the end, it's just a difference between either end effect, so if the end difference is a dwarf takes less damage from a fireball more often, then it can just be a simple magical field inherent to dwarves.
There is no difference... every spell that offers a save gets a bonus... the end. It doesn't have to make sense... it's a fantasy game with magic and dragons, just let it go.
Just imagine that if the Dwarf passes their save they just bust out of the force-cage because of their inherentl anti-magic capabilities. Like, the cage caught them, but they just bend the bars and walk out.
This is essentially the same problem as trying to overthink a Cloak of Resistance. It makes you tougher - both physically and mentally - and for some reason also makes you quicker? But not in every way - you don't get higher initiative, higher armour class or better acrobatics - you just get better at dodging certain effects. Makes sense right?
Don't try to overthink these things, that way lies madness.
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As a rules question this isn't. The rule is that a dwarf gets the save bonus, whether the spell is flesh to stone or fireball or hold person. If the question is how to fluff it on a reflex save vs. forcecage then I'd suggest that the dwarf's resistance to magic can slow down the magic as it takes effect about the dwarf, giving them a fraction of a second longer to escape.
Hence, as one of the group put it [ who read through this thread ] , "'It makes sense as long as you don't think about it' is just a difficult argument for me to agree with."
Well, yeah, it's a game mechanic. How does a Cloak of Resistance help against a Forcecage?
It's a game. Anyone who wants to play it has to accept that some things are that way to make the game work mechanically. If you can't accept that a bonus to all saves works against all saves, maybe Pathfinder is not the right game for you.
they're more logic lawyers in some ways. they're more logic lawyers in some ways.
Am I the only one who thinks that a position that boils down to "logically, this spell shouldn't affect a dwarf" the be the pinnacle of ridiculousness? It's a f!+~ing spell. You cannot possibly know how it works. You cannot possibly apply logic to it.
Maybe the Forcecage spell only works if the 'magical pressure' inside it isn't to great, and a reflex save made against it checks for whether a creature in it can get their 'magical pressure' up, which the dwarven Hardy trait helps to do, and one doesn't jump out of the way, but rather the spell shoving creatures with too high 'magical pressure' out of the way. Or maybe the spell kinda forms from the center point outwards, and creatures can 'ride the wave' if they manage to catch it (which the Reflex save represents), and the Hardy trait gives the dwarf kinda magical bouyancy.
If you're unable to play the game without an explanation how the Hardy trait works against a Forcecage, look for or come up with an explanation, instead of trying to screw other player's characters.
If you try to make the rules bow to reality, you'd need to change hundreds of things. Like, a character can (potentially) make 10+ attacks in a round, but as a standard action which takes up a little over half a round, they can only make one? Why is that not half the attacks? If a swift action takes so little time, why can't you make more than one per round? I could go on and on.
As others have said the rules are clear. If it is a spell, spell like ability or poison the dwarf gets the bonus to any required save.
If you are looking for justification you could consider dwarves have an innate resistance to magic. In most dwarves it is not strong enough to be considered spell resistance, but it does make it harder for them to be affected by magic. Some dwarves actually do have magic resistance. The alternative racial trait Elder Dwarf allows a dwarf to trade Hardy for spell resistance.
How does a player writing "Iron Will" on a sheet of paper make their character better at resisting everything from smoking a cigarette to being charmed by vampires?
It would be literally impossible to explain everything... why do Elves get a +2 to overcome SR? Why are Halflings Helpful? What makes Gnomes so impossibly complex that they get access to Bewildering Koan? It's just a game...
Why are Halflings Helpful?
Honestly this one still bothers me =P
Hi there. I'm the GM of this game in question. It's clear to me that Hardy applies to any spell that targets a dwarf. What's less clear to me are edge situations where the dwarf isn't targeted and no spell resistance is typically allowed. For example, does hardy let you get a bonus when interacting with "disguise self" on another individual? What about when a wall of stone is toppled on the dwarf?
Or better, consider escaping a landslide. Hardy doesn't help with that, right? But then what about when the landslide is a sub-effect of the spell earthquake? Does it apply then? What if a wizard lobs a fireball and blasts out the ledge near where a dwarf was travelling? Does hardy apply then? A cloak of resistance is not the same as hardy. A cloak of resistance always gives a reflex save without stipulation, but hardy requires it to be a spell effect. My question is therefore at what point does it become a spell effect.
Does the spell itself have a saving throw in the description?
If yes: Hardy applies.
If no: Hardy doesn't apply.
Disguise Self? Yes.
Wall of Stone being created and then toppling over? No. Wall of Stone being used to seal a dwarf away? Yes, part of the spell.
Landslide via Earthquake? Yes, it's part of the spell.
Fireball dealing enough damage to crumble a ledge? No, Hardy doesn't apply to avoid falling.
Hi there. I'm the GM of this game in question. It's clear to me that Hardy applies to any spell that targets a dwarf. What's less clear to me are edge situations where the dwarf isn't targeted and no spell resistance is typically allowed. For example, does hardy let you get a bonus when interacting with "disguise self" on another individual?
Perception skill vs. disguise skill, not a save. Hardy gives a save bonus.
What about when a wall of stone is toppled on the dwarf?
Wall of iron maybe? Wall of stone has no rules on toppling it. That is a save vs. a spell, and hardy applies. Maybe it shouldn't, but if so the Int of the wizard in question shouldn't either.
Or better, consider escaping a landslide. Hardy doesn't help with that, right? But then what about when the landslide is a sub-effect of the spell earthquake? Does it apply then? What if a wizard lobs a fireball and blasts out the ledge near where a dwarf was travelling? Does hardy apply then? A cloak of resistance is not the same as hardy. A cloak of resistance always gives a reflex save without stipulation, but hardy requires it to be a spell effect. My question is therefore at what point does it become a spell effect.
Generally the distinction I'd make is if the spellcasting stat bonus is involved (and it is a save) hardy should apply. If the spell creates hazards with their own save DC (like the DC 15 hazards in earthquake; probably like your fireballed ledge example) then no, that's removed enough from the spellcaster it's not the spell acting directly and hardy would not apply.
Hi there. I'm the GM of this game in question. It's clear to me that Hardy applies to any spell that targets a dwarf. What's less clear to me are edge situations where the dwarf isn't targeted and no spell resistance is typically allowed. For example, does hardy let you get a bonus when interacting with "disguise self" on another individual?Perception skill vs. disguise skill, not a save. Hardy gives a save bonus.
What about when a wall of stone is toppled on the dwarf?Wall of iron maybe? Wall of stone has no rules on toppling it. That is a save vs. a spell, and hardy applies. Maybe it shouldn't, but if so the Int of the wizard in question shouldn't either.
Or better, consider escaping a landslide. Hardy doesn't help with that, right? But then what about when the landslide is a sub-effect of the spell earthquake? Does it apply then? What if a wizard lobs a fireball and blasts out the ledge near where a dwarf was travelling? Does hardy apply then? A cloak of resistance is not the same as hardy. A cloak of resistance always gives a reflex save without stipulation, but hardy requires it to be a spell effect. My question is therefore at what point does it become a spell effect.Generally the distinction I'd make is if the spellcasting stat bonus is involved (and it is a save) hardy should apply. If the spell creates hazards with their own save DC (like the DC 15 hazards in earthquake; probably like your fireballed ledge example) then no, that's removed enough from the spellcaster it's not the spell acting directly and hardy would not apply.
Diguise Self grants a Will Save when interacting with a creature. Hardy would apply there.
If a spell grants a save with a hard locked DC, I believe Hardy still applies. The Landslide from Earthquake is part of the Spell's Saving Throw description which lists it as (See Text).
I think Scavion has the RAW there, but I'd rule like avr.
Disguise Self grants a save only when you directliy interact with the disguise, so if you're just walking-past/talking-to the Dwarf then there's no save. If the Dwarf tries to pickpocket you only to discover you're actually a mind-flayer who has no pockets then they'd get a save, and the Dwarf would get their Hardy bonus .
With the saves in Earthquake, again I think Scavion is correct, but as avr pointed out those saves are from the side-effects of the spell. Since the saves are from side-effects and since they're not tied to your Save DC I think RAI it probably shouldn't get the Hardy Bonus. I'd probably give it to them though - if we hadn't discussed this beforehand it'd seem like I was picking on the player to just say "Nah it doesn't work kn that spell coz I don't think it should.".
For something like a Wall Of Stone falling on the player the Dwarf would absolutely not get a bonus to the save. The spell itself isn't forcing a save. The spell created an object, and then thriugh separate actions the wall was used as a weapon that's forcing a save. That's jot the spell calling for a save, so no bonus.
Hi there. I'm the GM of this game in question. It's clear to me that Hardy applies to any spell that targets a dwarf. What's less clear to me are edge situations where the dwarf isn't targeted and no spell resistance is typically allowed. For example, does hardy let you get a bonus when interacting with "disguise self" on another individual?Perception skill vs. disguise skill, not a save. Hardy gives a save bonus.
You are thinking Fabricate Disguise… Disguise Self is an Illusion and explicitly uses a Will Save if interacted with… the last line in Disguise self reads:
“A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion.”And do keep in mind that the rules for interacting with illusions counts spending a full round action to examine as interacting without requiring physical interaction. So a dwarf who either touches an illusory disguise from disguise self or takes the time to deliberately look it over without touching gets a will save with the bonus from hardy to see it for what it really is.
Also… as a side note… to explain in a logical way how a dwarfs hardy (and by extension a cloak of resistance even) would interact with reflex saves, think of it as a sort of early warning system such as feeling a tingling of electricity in the air before a lightning strike, a sudden chill, or hairs standing on end… small little clues that something is amiss or about to happen that give them that split second of extra warning to help them get out of the way sooner. They aren’t moving any faster or really even reacting faster, they just merely sensed it coming. The same application can apply to will saves against non-mind affecting spells.