Poisonous Pets, for the win?!?

[Revolving Door Alternate]

Ok, looking at wierd builds.
Was considering a poisoner alchemist. But then I started thinking there are also some pets with poison. Familiars and animal companions of vipers, scorpions, wasps, spiders, etc... I'm pretty sure you can make an eidolon poisonous. But the saves and effects are pretty dismal. Rarely will a serious opponent fail the save or have many problems even if they do fail.

Is there any way the poisons from your pets more effective?

[Yazkin]

Adding Con straight up increases the DC of their poison. So going the Eye for Talent alternative racial trait gives a +2 to their Con right there.

If they have intelligence, going Ability Focus also gives them an additional +2 to the poison save.

Boon Companion ups their HD if they aren't using full Druid progression.

+Con magical equipment also adds to the DC.

There's not much else to adding to that DC.

[Ryze Kuja]

Ask your GM if he'll consider using Scaling Poison DC's.

I'd recommend:

10 + 1/2 level + Intelligence Mod = Poison DC

or

Original Poison DC + Primary Modifier = Poison DC

[Azothath]

in general relying on familiars or pets with half or less of a PCs HPs is a losing proposition especially as level increases. As attackers they just don't keep up with level. They're just too easy to kill or wipe off the map.

[avr]

Debuffing enemies to get them to fail the poison save is possible, if generally hard on the action economy and/or build resources. Intimidate is the easiest IMO (see Cornugon smash) though it's probably only a -2.

Still, before you get too far into a plan like this remember just how many things are immune to poison. You'd need a campaign where the considerable majority of enemies will be affected (i.e. they're not undead, constructs, plants, oozes, swarms or most outsiders) hopefully including the BBEG. Tricks to make poisons apply to those probably won't work on a pet.

[Revolving Door Alternate]

avr wrote:

... Still, before you get too far into a plan like this remember just how many things are immune to poison. ...

Absolutely understand where your coming from here. This group has several players that are not all that into optimizing their character builds. So I have to be a bit careful to not overshadow them.

So if reasonably often I can shine a bit brighter by giving a bunch of bad guys a dose of poison, that will be sufficient.

We haven't decided on the next campaign yet. When that has been determined I will check with the GM to see if a poison focus is going to be too useless.

[DeathlessOne]

Finally getting a use out of Pernicious Poison, eh? There is a lot of shenanigans a witch-like character (anyone able to use evil eyes hex) and having access that spell can do, can get into with a focus on poison.

[VoodistMonk]

Grippli Venom Siphoner Witch adds 1/3 to the DC of their Familiar's poison as a FCB.

Gestalt with Toxicant-Vivisectionist Alchemist, take Deific/Diverse Obedience Norgorber for his 2nd Exalted boon, Pernicious Stab to trade Sneak Attack damage die for poison DC increases, Poison Focus, Toxic Spell, and Infuse Poison if you want to loop Spell + Poison + Spell + Poison...

[Evilserran]

Also fun fact THERE ARE some poisons that work on outsides and undead, you just need to find/get them (they arent cheap) but they dont come from a familiar

[VoodistMonk]

Alchemist can take the Celestial Poison Discovery, too.

And, just for fun, Witches can take the Drugged Hex to make poisons have Will saves instead of Fort saves...

[avr]

Neither of which work on your pet's natural poison VM.

[VoodistMonk]

avr wrote:

Neither of which work on your pet's natural poison VM.

For sure.

I don't think Norgorber's 2nd boon applies, either... although it might.

I assumed the Familiar's poison would simply be one of several avenues a character would be accessing fun poison stuffs... mixing it with poison(s) the character has crafted, themself. And once you start mixing poisons, I [again] assume that the character's Discoveries/Hexes would apply to the resultant combination...?

We all know what they say about assuming, though. Lol.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Here's kind of a weird, specific way to up the DC on a pet's poison: Treacherous Toxin

Now, this depends on 1. if your pet can learn non-animal feats or 2. if your pet is a Familiar, if your GM not only allows your Familiar to retrain it's one feat but then if your Familiar meets the prereqs of having BAB +5 and the Sneak Attack class feature.

However, IF your pet is capable of taking the feat and has these abilities, for every 1d6 SA damage they choose to forgo they gain a +1 to the DC of their poison. Of course, a PC with BAB +5 and SA could just as well take the feat, but Treacherous Toxin isn't a Combat feat so it can't be shared to a Familiar via Eldritch Guardian Fighter or something.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Here's another weird corner case, just for Familiars: Powerful Poisoning

So, a Familiar can "use" it's master/mistress' skill ranks. Depending on how your GM rules this statement, a Familiar MIGHT qualify as having 3 ranks in Craft: Alchemy if the PC does. If that's the case AND the Familiar has access to the Power Attack feat as well has producing its own poison, then it can forgo the bonus damage from PA to gain a +1 on the DC of its poison.

In the case of a Beast Bonded witch with the Pernicious Poison spell who gifts their Mauler famililiar with an extra feat, this might be a fun way for the big guy to stay relevant with their poison attacks a little while longer. Again, this will have to be adjudicated by your GM and is likely not PFS legal.

[the David]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

Ask your GM if he'll consider using Scaling Poison DC's.

I'd recommend:

10 + 1/2 level + Intelligence Mod = Poison DC

or

Original Poison DC + Primary Modifier = Poison DC

Poison saves are already based on Hit Dice/2 + Con mod +10. That would leave the viper familiar with a DC19 poison DC, and an Imp or Quasit with a DC of 20 at level 20.

A viper animal companion could max out at DC21 if you bring constitution up to 16.

It's not great, but it's a start.

[Chell Raighn]

the David wrote:

Ryze Kuja wrote:

Ask your GM if he'll consider using Scaling Poison DC's.

I'd recommend:

10 + 1/2 level + Intelligence Mod = Poison DC

or

Original Poison DC + Primary Modifier = Poison DC

Poison saves are already based on Hit Dice/2 + Con mod +10. That would leave the viper familiar with a DC19 poison DC, and an Imp or Quasit with a DC of 20 at level 20.

A viper animal companion could max out at DC21 if you bring constitution up to 16.

It's not great, but it's a start.

I know that is how creature poisons worked in 3e… but I have yet to see any rules in pathfinder outside of a few specific creature entries that imply they work that way in pathfinder… rather I have seen more to the contrary… various rules state that unless stated otherwise in the creatures entry poisons use the listed DC, and that SOME creatures have constitution based poisons instead. In otherwords, if the entry itself doesn’t say “constitution based” or anything that outlines its scaling, then it doesn’t scale. And yes, I am aware that 10+1/2HD+Con is how the initial poison DCs are derived, but it doesn’t change the fact that every rule I’ve seen on the matter pretty clearly says they don’t scale unless stated otherwise in the creature entry…

Vipers poison entry simply says DC 9, nothing else… no amount of extra HD or Con will change the vipers poison from DC 9… if you harvest the poison however, it’s DC changes, to 11 (10 + 1/2CR + Wisdom mod) as per the rules for harvesting poison from a creature… but that is the DC of the harvested poison, not the natural poison the creature still has…

If you can find me a rule that says they scale, then awesome… I would love to see it… I use a Viper familiar on a character in a current campaign and if I can up her familiars poison DC even by a small amount then it might actually prove useful to have her familiar bite things (the snake has a better chance to hit than half the party but does no damage… because vipers bite damage is abysmal and a DC 9 poison literally never takes effect)

[Revolving Door Alternate]

Ok, I will play around with a few builds using the ideas you folks have suggested. See if I can come up with something I like.

Thx y'all.

[DeathlessOne]

Chell Raighn wrote:

I know that is how creature poisons worked in 3e… but I have yet to see any rules in pathfinder outside of a few specific creature entries that imply they work that way in pathfinder… rather I have seen more to the contrary… various rules state that unless stated otherwise in the creatures entry poisons use the listed DC, and that SOME creatures have constitution based poisons instead. In otherwords, if the entry itself doesn’t say “constitution based” or anything that outlines its scaling, then it doesn’t scale. And yes, I am aware that 10+1/2HD+Con is how the initial poison DCs are derived, but it doesn’t change the fact that every rule I’ve seen on the matter pretty clearly says they don’t scale unless stated otherwise in the creature entry…

Check out the Universal Monster Rules in the Bestiary. Here is the important bit: "The saving throw to resist a poison is usually a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + 1/2 poisoning creature’s racial HD + that creature’s Constitution modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text)."

So, unless explicitly called out in the monster text, this is the rule used to calculate its poison DC. A viper, for example, had 1 HD (1/2 = 0), -1 Con Modifier, +10 = 9 DC for its poison. If you change anything about the creature in regards to its CON modifier or racial HD, the answer to that formula changes. For a familiar: "Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher." You would use its master's HD to calculate its poison DC.