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Yes, unfounded customer expectations are a part of business.
People literally have their copies right now. It’s not unfounded, yes it’s not guaranteed, but actually happens with every single release.
If it happens for some, it should happen for all or no one. We pay the same money for the same product. There should not be uneven fulfilment of the digital side of the order.
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Yes, unfounded customer expectations are a part of business.
Not really unfounded. You can see a bunch of people talking about the copies of SoM they have right now.
This isn't something being just sprung on Paizo out of the blue, it's something they've chosen to do. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but it is what it is. So is the response that might come from it.
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Sometimes you’ll be early, sometimes late. The only solution would be everyone gets it later. Is it really worth removing the lottery aspect so some don’t feel left out?
It was years ago, but Vic Wertz explained that one barrier to releasing the PDFs early is with their credit card agreements - they are only allowed to charge you when shipping is imminent. The subscription is a print product with a free PDF perk - they’re not allowed to charge us all and then dribble out the orders in the following weeks.
Some companies do that in violation of their agreements, but Paizo won’t ignore that clause. They could offer a PDF only subscription, but that would affect the business in lots of other ways.
Not saying there’s not an issue to consider, but it’s worth bearing in mind that they have been thinking about this a long time and are juggling a host of unseen issues (haven’t even got to the “gaming stores will boycott Paizo products if there’s a reliable way to get the books early” point).
Maybe things have changed in the twentyish years since they started. Something for a new VP to look into, I suppose. :)
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Yes, unfounded customer expectations are a part of business.People literally have their copies right now. It’s not unfounded, yes it’s not guaranteed, but actually happens with every single release.
If it happens for some, it should happen for all or no one. We pay the same money for the same product. There should not be uneven fulfilment of the digital side of the order.
Ah. So from my earlier post, you actually would prefer that people lose early PDF access if you can't get it. Got it.
That is disappointingly spiteful.
It's also silly, because - those people will often still get the books earlier, just the physical copy, and it will still be dependent on order of shipping, just adding in transit time (which is still mostly dependent on proximity to Seattle). And those at the back of the queue are even more likely to get PDFs after street date. That feels...worse? Like, it's exactly the same except that those who are further away have to wait even longer to access their books most months (where shipping happens before street date).
I'm assuming that substantial compression of Paizo's shipping timeframe cannot be done without undue cost, because - there are physical limits to how many things they can move at once and it's reasonable to assume they've looked at that before.
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I'm assuming that substantial compression of Paizo's shipping timeframe cannot be done without undue cost, because - there are physical limits to how many things they can move at once and it's reasonable to assume they've looked at that before.
I remember discussion a few years back where it was suggested that they try and ship orders that will take longer first. their algorithms do pay a bit of attention to that, I believe. But the main priority each month is getting everything done in as narrow a window as possible - some of us are inevitably going to be poorly served because of where we are and what we order. Addressing that perceived inequity would slow everything down.
It’s worth noting that Paizo don’t have “maximise subscriptions” as a goal - they’ve repeatedly said they want people to buy products through all their distribution channels and that people should do whatever works best for them.
For me it’s pretty much at the point where it would be cheapest to buy the PDFs on release date and print books from my FLGS than it is to subscribe. Paizo would no doubt encourage me to do that, if that worked best for me.
For me it’s pretty much at the point where it would be cheapest to buy the PDFs on release date and print books from my FLGS than it is to subscribe. Paizo would no doubt encourage me to do that, if that worked best for me.
Yeah, that was a lot of my earlier post. I couldn't help but think, "there's an obvious answer here and it's to stop subscribing" when made me realize it wasn't really about that.
Aren't you in Australia or something anyway?
Yeah. My regular subscription shipping costs are anything from $80 to $150 these days. :o
Plus I never see them until weeks after the street date (although my FLGS also gets things late so that wouldn’t be addressed).
Yeah. My regular subscription shipping costs are anything from $80 to $150 these days. :o
Plus I never see them until weeks after the street date (although my FLGS also gets things late so that wouldn’t be addressed).
I have the same problem here in NZ. The main reason for me subscribing at this point is the stores in my area don't get new books till about 6 months after release, if at all
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For me subscribing does have benefit but its not cost. Its reliability and convenience.
Yeah, weird that everyone gets their PDFs under the same rules.Equal rules, unequally applied. I’ll PM you when Taipei users start getting theres.
Not Taipei, but Austria:
I got access to the PDFs yesterday at 9PM (local Austrian summer time), or just after noon in Seattle.Like I said, sometimes I get access early, sometimes it's later than street date.
what stings is when the FLGS has the book on the shelf and as a subscriber I don't have even the PDF. some times for months "waiting to ship". It is hard not to see malice. there is a lot it wont carry and I like my Special Editions
Thats definitely an error (I suspect with preorders or backorders holding up your subscriptions).
Subscribers should expect to get their PDFs after streetdate from time to time, but only like a week or so.
There's no reason a sub should stall for months if everything is working.
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For me subscribing does have benefit but its not cost. Its reliability and convenience.
This is also my reason for subscribing.
My FLGSs don't even import books anymore due to the exchange rate having increased sky high. So if I'm going to have to import the books myself, might as well do it from the source - from which I'm pretty certain I'll be able to get them consistently. Of course, it does get a bit more expensive and takes quite a while more to arrive than buying after release from other international sellers, but that's where the PDF does it's part.
I won't say it isn't a bit disappointing when shipping takes a while, but to me it's certainly in a "aw, gee-whiz, I wish I already had my PDF" kind of way, not in a "grab your pitchforks" kind of way.
I will concede, however, that I was a bit disgruntled before this thread was posted. It was really hard for me to understand precisely the extent of the issues with shipping, having only the vaguest of notions of what was happening (local shipping costs and times have been pretty much unchanged here, so the issues in the US and beyond caught me somewhat off-guard). I was really glad when I read this thread, as (in my opinion) Sara Marie clarified the situation very well.
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Yes, unfounded customer expectations are a part of business.People literally have their copies right now. It’s not unfounded, yes it’s not guaranteed, but actually happens with every single release.
If it happens for some, it should happen for all or no one. We pay the same money for the same product. There should not be uneven fulfilment of the digital side of the order.
Ah. So from my earlier post, you actually would prefer that people lose early PDF access if you can't get it. Got it.
That is disappointingly spiteful.
Indeed it is. There's a meme I would post here if I could. It goes like this:
Child: Why does she get one, and not me? It's not fair.
Father: You're never gonna get the same things as other people. It's never gonna be equal. It's not gonna happen ever in your life, so you must learn that now, okay? Listen. The only time you should look in your neighbor's bowl is to make sure that they have enough. You don't look in your neighbor's bowl to see if you have as much as them.
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what stings is when the FLGS has the book on the shelf and as a subscriber I don't have even the PDF. some times for months "waiting to ship". It is hard not to see malice. there is a lot it wont carry and I like my Special Editions
Yeah, looking at your post history - your GMG shipping late was clearly an error and customer service corrected it the same day you posted about it. (That, frankly, is a minor miracle - for much of those eight months they had a huge backlog.)
Part of the point of the customer service threads is to create a place where people can see the status of the shipping to confirm if something is wrong. If they say they've completed the orders and yours is stuck somewhere, let them know ASAP.
It's dumb that it happened, though, and unfortunate that you had to specifically request help to get it resolved.
Paizo's website, including the purchasing system as a whole, definitely isn't their strong suit. But IT, like international shipping logistics, is hard. I'd much rather Paizo spend money on more artists/designers/developers/editors to make their products than revamping their website/distribution processes where they are currently "good enough." (I can't fully make that determination because I don't know what pain points they have on the back end.)
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If it happens for some, it should happen for all or no one. We pay the same money for the same product. There should not be uneven fulfilment of the digital side of the order.
You don't have your pdf yet? Have you actually paid any money for "the same product" yet? No? Then you have no legitimate complaint.
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I get that Paizo needs to maintain relationships with FLGS. There is an international shipping cluster right now, so I also understand the need to delay.
The issue is Paizo waited until the stated release date to update the release date on the PDF. Despite apparently knowing for a week or more in advance it would be delayed. This isn't a problem that's out of Paizo's hands, this is Paizo choosing to delay informing people as long as possible. "It's hard to update the website" is not an acceptable response to that -- if it takes you a week to update a date on products, your website is unusable and it needs to be your #1 priority to rewrite it, instead of lamenting this fact for years.
This makes it pretty clear Paizo views non-subscribers as a second tier concern. Which makes me not wanna continue supporting Paizo.
While we communicated the release date delay on social media and in several forums posts, our product pages were only recently updated. We do apologize for the miscommunication and hear your frustration. We value all our customers both on paizo.com and at your favorite local game store. Thank you.
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There was updates though in multiple channels, just not that specific one, which is a failing in that regard I agree.
There was no malus though, or Paizo “deliberately” delaying. Also that one specific timer not being updated does not make the site unuseable.
“ it needs to be your #1 priority to rewrite it, instead of lamenting this fact for years”
This is not a claim they’ve ever made to my knowledge, that it takes them a week to update the product page.
Frustrating, but an accident, not malicious intent.
“ This makes it pretty clear Paizo views non-subscribers as a second tier concern. Which makes me not wanna continue supporting Paizo.”
You’re frustrated, understandable, but this is wallowing. There was updates. Nothing was hidden, one specific timer didn’t get updated.
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“ This makes it pretty clear Paizo views non-subscribers as a second tier concern. Which makes me not wanna continue supporting Paizo.”You’re frustrated, understandable, but this is wallowing. There was updates. Nothing was hidden, one specific timer didn’t get updated.
Sorry, but the only release date that matters is the one on the store page. You might enjoy browsing this forum and keeping up on dates, but it's not a reasonable defense that they made a post in a thread about this, or tweeted it. I was frustrated, and I'm not ascribing malice, sorry if it came out that way.
As for the second tier concern, I'm sorry, it's indisputable. The entire system of shipping subscriber books and providing PDFs at shipment creates a 2 tier system. It goes from slightly annoying to incredibly frustrating when we get this kind of scenario though.
Some people have the PDF in their hands because they're subscribers. I, as a non-subscriber, come to buy a book I'm excited about on the communicated release date. I even checked the store last night, since wouldn't be the first time they've done a last minute delay like this. I'm well aware of the shipping difficulties.
Now I find out they've known for a week we wouldn't be able to buy it today, and didn't remember to actually update the only listing of the date that matters. Meanwhile the internet is full of posts of people who have their copy.
But that's not actually a two tier system. Many times subscribers have gotten their copies AFTER the posted street date. It's happened to me on several occasions. It's part of the luck of the draw on being a subscriber. Right now, I'm still waiting on mine just like you're waiting on yours. The subscriber benefit is a FREE pdf not an early PDF, despite the fact that it does often come earlier than the street date.
Why is it bad to give benefits to long time, consistent customers?
I think there is a multi tier system - subscribers and casual purchasers (no matter how frequent) are different cohorts. Overseas and US customers are different too. English speakers and non-English speakers. People who like books, people who like PDFs. People who play online, people who play face to face…
You can divide us up in lots of ways and from time to time decisions that Paizo make will benefit one group over another.
Subscribers keep the lights on and the staff employed. It is absolutely central to Paizo’s business model. Perks and extra consideration offered to subscribers is expected, isn’t it?
Sure. I’m not judging you or saying you should subscribe. Im sure your business is very important to Paizo and that they’re glad to have you and want you to have the best experience possible.
But that doesn’t change the fact that there are multiple cohorts of customers and that subscribers are at the heart of how Paizo operates. Wouldn’t you expect them to devote more energy to that group than to others?
(Just as they’ll devote more energy to you than to someone who only comes here for the free PDFs for instance))
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They don't reward people who want physical books, they reward people who are helping them to determine specific demand and print counts by subscribing to product lines to give them good numbers. And again, early is not part of the deal and is not always something that happens. My perks for subscribing are a discount and a free PDF.
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They don't reward people who want physical books, they reward people who are helping them to determine specific demand and print counts by subscribing to product lines to give them good numbers. And again, early is not part of the deal and is not always something that happens. My perks for subscribing are a discount and a free PDF.I mean, if it's just a free PDF, then there's no reason for it to ever be delivered before the street date. It's not a perk to get it early, so you're fine waiting until September 1st for anyone to get a copy, right?
If your response is "I don't always get my PDF early, which means it's fair that subscribers as a whole do and people who only want PDFs never can" then we fundamentally disagree.
Sure. I would be fine waiting. I have had to wait longer than street date before. It's frustrating, but it isn't the end of the world. The problem is that Paizo can't charge me for my subscription until it ships, which is why they grant the PDF the way they do. If they granted it on street date no matter what, what we would see is people who subscribe right before the street date, get the free PDF on the street date, and then cancel their subscription before ever getting charged.
So the only actual option that won't prevent that kind of fraud, is still going to turn into a two tier system, but instead of "rewarding" their long time sustained customer base, they would be "punishing" that same base because the free PDF would have to be a "When your subscription ships or the street date hits, whichever is latest"
As for the second tier concern, I'm sorry, it's indisputable.
To a closed mind, everything is indisputable.
You can charge the price when the PDF is released, and ship as available.
Or charge the PDF price and then the difference when the physical product ships.
Wait. What did you order, when you set up the subscription?
Pathfinder Adventure Path subscription
... With your ongoing Pathfinder Adventure Path subscription, we'll send you each new Pathfinder Adventure Path volume and charge your payment method automatically as we ship each product. ...
So, you pay to receive a physical book.
I believe there is a legal issue if they charge you for the PDF (that you didn't order), or charge the full price ahead of time of shipping.
What if one of the conditions of the subscription was that you would get charged for the PDF if you canceled the physical product? As long as the PDF costs less than the physical product, that would simply mean a smaller refund at that point.
But I think the Paizo folks have cited numerous other problems with that approach. The primary issue seems to be that they would have to bill people's credit cards before their physical orders ship, and there seem to be major legal issues with doing that.
And they would have to charge credit cards before shipment to keep people from gaming the system so that they get free PDFs without paying for either the physical book or the PDF.
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What if one of the conditions of the subscription was that you would get charged for the PDF if you canceled the physical product? As long as the PDF costs less than the physical product, that would simply mean a smaller refund at that point.
I'm guessing that this couldn't be done in a way that scales in their current system. This all seems to be internally developed code, so I'd bet they'd need a significant amount of rewriting to track and charge for cancellations as they happen. It would likely all be manual processing that would slow down order processing more. Or changing code to split off the PDF, charge for it on some arbitrary date (because the book isn't officially released yet), and then calculate the difference for each physical product sold and charge only that when shipping the physical book. None of that is easy, especially when there are other pressing technical things they might want to deal with.
None of that really matters. The delay isn't about subscribers and non-subscribers. It's about making certain distributors can get books to retailers by the time the book is available for general purchase. I can't imagine the PDF ever getting a street date that is different than the hard copy date.
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I understand his frustration. People should not have to go hunting for info when there is an official webpage. Did Paizo mean anything by it? Sometimes things happen but one should expect the official webpage to be as up to date as possible.
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There is actually an explanation for this here.
A quick post from a Paizo staffer saying that a street date for a product is being delayed (and that the date under the product page would eventually be updated) should be sufficient. They did that a couple of months ago, as I recall.
Both of those things happened this time and have been noted as being insufficient.
It's worth noting that Paizo is a small company. There's basically one person who handles product page updates, and that same person is responsible for processing product page requests from other people who sell through our website, posting new product pages, and a variety of other customer service and tech adjacent tasks. Her task list is pretty much always more than a week long just on day-to-day duties. We're also not all working from the office due to COVID, so when a request goes to her to make an update, it goes into a digital queue. There's time lag just to see that the thing even needs to be done. Aaron, conversely, has direct channels thanks to our Twitter, Facebook, and other social media accounts, and can often get that news out through those channels much faster. He doesn't need to input them into a highly unique digital platform system, and him posting an update on Twitter doesn't carry the risk of upsetting a business partner by delaying their product or blog posting in favor of our own.
No one at Paizo wears just one hat or has just one thing going on. Most of us work
Still on board with just removing street date from product pages.
That would probably be overkill. The street date is usually accurate and useful information. But perhaps a link to the Customer service forum with a suggestion to look at the subscription page for the month of release for updates might be helpful.