Dear Paizo...


Paizo General Discussion

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...I really, really do love your products.
Pathfinder is by far my favourite PnP.

but...

The last minute change of the SoM release date...

I am not even mad about the delay. Things like that can happen, it happens all the time. Especially the last and this year for reasons we are all aware of.

But you KNEW that the date could not be kept. Appearently for a week or more.

People are planning around these things. I planned something with my friends for a pnp session. I know others who have planned around it.
I cleared my schedule to be able to read enough properly to be ready for the weekend.
I took a dang day off and waited till last second to get it because I was thinking to myself 'it is so close to the release date, they surely won't change it'

On top of that people knew. Who knew? The people who subscribe. I have not casually the money to spare to buy a big book and GET IT SHIPPED OVERSEAS on top of that.
I have no good local retailer to buy the book either.

I just had the dang street date NO ONE BOTHERED TO UPDATE TILL IT WAS TO LATE TO CHANGE ANYTHING ABOUT MY SCHEDULING.

GIVE PEOPLE TIME TO REACT AND PROPERLY INFORM THEM

The bad communication here is what bothers me the most.

rant over...just had to vent...


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Seisho wrote:


But you KNEW that the date could not be kept. Appearently for a week or more.

Which is why they announced the delay nine days ago.


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Salamileg wrote:
Seisho wrote:


But you KNEW that the date could not be kept. Appearently for a week or more.
Which is why they announced the delay nine days ago.

The shop just changed the deadline a few hours ago.

Some people happened to know it because of reddit, social or even this forum, but it's a fact they could have handled things differently ( not sure whether it was a mistake or just lack of communication ).


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On twitter and not on their own Web store which still showed today's date up until yesterday. I am not a communications expert but that's not good communication. Its not organised, professional or coherent.


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This is just another example of the poor communication and management that Paizo demonstrates on a regular basis. We enjoy Pathfinder in spite of Paizo as often as because of them.


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This might shock some of you, but Paizo is staffed by humans who are probably trying their best to make things work and might equally or moreso be emotionally affected by this delay and the resulting repercussions than you are.

It's reasonable to be disappointed in the delay, maybe even frustrated by how it was communicated, but attacking the company and it's employees over a 7-day delay and the inconveniences it's placed on you tells a little more on you than it does on them.

There are ways to communicate discontent that don't amount to lowkey insults and rants.


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Some unnecessary digs at Paizo already in this thread.

That said I agree that the release date should have been changed on the product page.

People should not be required to check anywhere except the page for the actual product. It's one thing if Amazon dates are wrong, but really the product pages should be high priority to update.

Requiring customers to check social media (and scroll back in time), or customer service threads they're not aware of unless they read long threads is not good practice.

Especially important in this year of regular and likely delays.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

It's pretty easy for this stuff to fall through the cracks given how much is on Paizo's plate at the moment. They made several announcements, and the changed date was even mentioned in the product page thread (which is right below the product) so someone could easily have forgotten while putting out some other fire.

Honestly, I'd rather have every Paizo staff member stop and take a 5 minute break rather than hustle and make sure every little thing on their site is perfect.

We get a lot of benefit from the way Paizo currently exists, they're approachable, responsive, flexible and fun. If you want Big Business Rigid Perfectionism (or more realistically, missed deadlines with no comments whatsoever) we'd end up with a much worse company to do business with. Plus, they'd probably financially collapse under the overhead necessary to meet all the demands people are making lately.

Long story short: Dear Paizo Employee Reading This, keep up the good work and don't sweat the small mistakes.


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It's not unreasonable to expect for product pages to be updated in good time when a delay is known about for over a week.

I wouldn't moan but this particular issues popped up in their last two book releases as well (admittedly with less long gaps) so it's issues tha paizo has known about for several years and haven't done anything to rectify it.


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Things can definitely fall through the cracks. However, if a product is delayed, the very first place it should be updated is the product page before any announcement anywhere about it (then announcements explaining what happened are a good idea).

Silver Crusade

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vagrant-poet wrote:

Some unnecessary digs at Paizo already in this thread.

I'm honestly not seeing any.

The original criticism is valid and was politely stated. Maybe he could have used less caps but other than that what did he say that was either rude or untrue?

Oh, maybe the one comment about enjoying pathfinder despite Paizo was a bit rude. But it was pretty obviously made as a joke.

Unless you're taking the position that criticizing a company is automatically rude and an attack I'm just not seeing it.

Paizo really does need to improve on the way that it disseminates some information. Oh, they do a wonderful job in some respects. But not clearly telling customers when a release date slips is poor practice.

As long as it isn't in some podcast, I really don't care WHICH platform they use. Maybe it's blogs, or Twitter. Or Facebook. Or product pages. Or their home page. But they should clearly identify at least ONE mechanism they make product announcements on and ALWAYS make the announcement THERE as soon as they know (certainly at or before the time they make the announcement elsewhere).

Like others, I'm not at all upset that the delay happened. Schedules slip. Especially now. It's the communication that is an issue


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I’m guessing at least part of the problem is that the webstore needs a date and that “coming soon” isn’t a feasible answer.

You can tweet “it’s going to be late, not sure how long” but you can only update the webstore once you know the answer. (Otherwise whoever it is would have been continually updating the page over the last few weeks as the estimated streetdate kept shifting around….resulting in posts asking them to wait until they’re sure)_

It’s an issue I’m sure they’re keen to avoid whenever possible, but there are always more things going on in the background than we’re aware of.


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pauljathome wrote:


As long as it isn't in some podcast, I really don't care WHICH platform they use. Maybe it's blogs, or Twitter. Or Facebook. Or product pages. Or their home page. But they should clearly identify at least ONE mechanism they make product announcements on and ALWAYS make the announcement THERE as soon as they know (certainly at or before the time they make the announcement elsewhere).

Like others, I'm not at all upset that the delay happened. Schedules slip. Especially now. It's the communication that is an issue

I always go to the monthly subscription update page in the customer service forum. That’s the most up to date and consistently monitored place I’ve found to learn about delays.


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That is not a place I would instinctively go, especially since I don't have monthly subscription

*sigh*

The whole thing is disappointing and the envy for the people who already have their pdf is growing even more


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Seisho wrote:

That is not a place I would instinctively go, especially since I don't have monthly subscription

*sigh*

The whole thing is disappointing and the envy for the people who already have their pdf is growing even more

That envy would exist even if they’d updated the webstore a week ago wouldn’t it?

Edit: the comment about the monthly thread was specifically directed to pauljathome though. Probably didn’t make that very clear. It was just a suggestion for a place to look.


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It would still exist but at least I would've been prepared for that week and not left hanging with that bummer of a mood today


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
WatersLethe wrote:
and the changed date was even mentioned in the product page thread (which is right below the product)

In fairness to the OP, it was post two hundred and something out of even more.

The other announcement was buried in their twitter feed and not really highlighted or pinned anywhere.

And the shop itself continued to say it was releasing on the 25th up until pretty much the last minute.

You pretty much had to be already following the conversation closely or know specifically where to look to find out. So I can understand why it caught people off guard and why it's frustrating for some of them. That doesn't justify some of the anger, but... agan I can see why that would put some people off.

Steve Geddes wrote:

I’m guessing at least part of the problem is that the webstore needs a date and that “coming soon” isn’t a feasible answer.

You can tweet “it’s going to be late, not sure how long” but you can only update the webstore once you know the answer.

I mean, they did know the answer. The announcement on twitter and in product discussion when they had to delay it included the new release date. The storefront was just never updated.

Somehow just that part of the delay process got forgotten or missed.


Seisho wrote:
It would still exist but at least I would've been prepared for that week and not left hanging with that bummer of a mood today

Yeah. It would definitely be better.

Just curious really if it’s the shifting date or the spread out release that results from the subscriber model.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Seems like a reasonable complaint.

Flagging to get moved to Paizo General Discussion or Website Feedback, since those are more appropriate than the 2E forum.


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Squiggit wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

I’m guessing at least part of the problem is that the webstore needs a date and that “coming soon” isn’t a feasible answer.

You can tweet “it’s going to be late, not sure how long” but you can only update the webstore once you know the answer.

I mean, they did know the answer. The announcement on twitter and in product discussion when they had to delay it included the new release date. The storefront was just never updated.

Somehow just that part of the delay process got forgotten or missed.

My suggestion was that it doesn’t matter if you tweet something and then tweet a correction.

That the level of certainty required to update the webstore is higher.

(Speculating, but I know that internally these things bounce around all the time and we just don’t see them. Not sure a continual churn of amendments to the webstore is actually going to result in a better experience).


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I think if this was a one off event then people would be less annoyed. The issue is that this is a systematic problem with the way Paizo communicates with its consumers. Unless you follow them constantly you might just not get breaking news in anything like a timely fashion.

I hate to say it in two threads but there will still be people buying the PACG Core Set thinking its promise of being a foundation for many more boxes to come because that is what the store page STILL says. Despite the line being discontinued and that information only being available if you dig deep into the comments thread on an announcement about Society Play specifically. Oh boy I would be annoyed if I invested that $60 on the promise that it leads to cheaper APs down the line.

Silver Crusade

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Steve Geddes wrote:

I’m guessing at least part of the problem is that the webstore needs a date and that “coming soon” isn’t a feasible answer.

I may be in the minority but I'd strongly prefer "TBD" or "product release delayed. Stay tuned" ( preferably but not necessarily with an explanation) to the wrong date.

Silver Crusade

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I suspect that perhaps Tonya being appointed into her new position might be able to help or more positively influence the situation.

What I am not understanding is how some folks are getting physical copies of SoM, or the APG in the case of last year ahead of release dates.

I can appreciate and support VA's getting copies of products ahead of time, and I can see where in some cases online retail outlets might ship early due to unreliability of the post office at times, but if my local game store, amazon, or whoever can get me a copy of the book before Paizo can directly with a discount normally (and this has happened several times I have observed in the last 3 years) after the release date why should I subscribe or ever order direct unless I cannot get it anyplace else?


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pauljathome wrote:
vagrant-poet wrote:

Some unnecessary digs at Paizo already in this thread.

I'm honestly not seeing any.

...

Oh, maybe the one comment about enjoying pathfinder despite Paizo was a bit rude. But it was pretty obviously made as a joke.

TwilightKnight wrote:
This is just another example of the poor communication and management that Paizo demonstrates on a regular basis. We enjoy Pathfinder in spite of Paizo as often as because of them.

That doesn't read as a joke, and if it was intended as one, it wasn't very funny. Certainly not seeming like friendly banter in a thread of already pretty upset people. Posted by a person who was pretty annoyed in the product thread already.

THAT SAID - I like lots of the Dev staff and CS and PR staff in Paizo. I think Paizo is open, and genuinely sorry when they mess up, and very clear what the cause of problems is generally.

HOWEVER - Paizo is a company. A money-making entity. We should ALWAYS be willing and able to fairly criticize companies, people shouldn't make it weird and personal, and absolutely do not need to be rude to actual staff, etc. But criticizing the company, for company level decisions and mistakes is good and fair. We won't always get the answers we want, like delaying pdfs to street date to maintain other sales relationships, etc.

In this case, I think that the street date update fell through the cracks, which can happen. But I'd really like to see it be an important cornerstone of delays that the product page is the first and most up-to-date place for release dates.

I think it's important for people who don't number among the small numbers of forum users and so on, that the product page has the most accurate info it can.


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pauljathome wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

I’m guessing at least part of the problem is that the webstore needs a date and that “coming soon” isn’t a feasible answer.

I may be in the minority but I'd strongly prefer "TBD" or "product release delayed. Stay tuned" ( preferably but not necessarily with an explanation) to the wrong date.

This

even if it would have been a rough estimation 'end of august'
would have been better
when people see a set date they start to take it for a fact
disppointment will always be part of a delay but if it is moved from 'end of august' to 1.st of september the feeling will be not quite as intense, simply because nobody expected anything specific so far

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I vote to remove release dates from the product pages completely. Everyone gets surprised when they release!


maybe not completely remove it but considering the history so far I think they should not give a precise date until they can keep it

and I curse whoever is responsible for the delay (the shipping companies I think?)

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Well, 'until they can keep it' means after release, so I think never makes the most sense.


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Seisho wrote:

maybe not completely remove it but considering the history so far I think they should not give a precise date until they can keep it

and I curse whoever is responsible for the delay (the shipping companies I think?)

Shipping delays will continue to be a reality for the next year at least, probably into 2023.

Feel free to check out my other posts on logistics, but the situation is getting worse, and about to get a *lot* worse.

Until covid is under control, to the point where us logistics people can safely work at full capacity, not really a lot to be done.


Seisho wrote:

maybe not completely remove it but considering the history so far I think they should not give a precise date until they can keep it

and I curse whoever is responsible for the delay (the shipping companies I think?)

COVID-19 is the real culprit here.


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

A quick post in each affected product thread from a Paizo staffer saying that a street date for a product is being delayed (and that the date under the product page would eventually be updated) should be sufficient. They did that a couple of months ago, as I recall.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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This is a legitimate complaint, and I hope we're looking into it... but it's not a part of the business any of us on the creative side have much to do with or insight into. I've flagged the original post as being in the wrong forum, but keep in mind that if you post concerns to the company about things like shipping issues, those should probably go in the customer service forum and not into the general discussion about the game.

(And yeah... the combination of the pandemic and the unprecidented global shipping crisis is to blame—this is not something any of us have ever experienced in our lifetimes, and so we're all having to learn as we go.)

Paizo Employee Designer

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David knott 242 wrote:


A quick post from a Paizo staffer saying that a street date for a product is being delayed (and that the date under the product page would eventually be updated) should be sufficient. They did that a couple of months ago, as I recall.

Both of those things happened this time and have been noted as being insufficient.

It's worth noting that Paizo is a small company. There's basically one person who handles product page updates, and that same person is responsible for processing product page requests from other people who sell through our website, posting new product pages, and a variety of other customer service and tech adjacent tasks. Her task list is pretty much always more than a week long just on day-to-day duties. We're also not all working from the office due to COVID, so when a request goes to her to make an update, it goes into a digital queue. There's time lag just to see that the thing even needs to be done. Aaron, conversely, has direct channels thanks to our Twitter, Facebook, and other social media accounts, and can often get that news out through those channels much faster. He doesn't need to input them into a highly unique digital platform system, and him posting an update on Twitter doesn't carry the risk of upsetting a business partner by delaying their product or blog posting in favor of our own.

No one at Paizo wears just one hat or has just one thing going on. Most of us work overtime with some regularity and often have additional tasks we do outside our normal work hours in the form of freelance that mean we're still pouring hours into keeping the company moving forward as COVID and other shipping disruptions continue to do their best to take down small gaming companies all over the world. I wouldn't have time to post this if I weren't currently taking a partial sick day to nurse an injured hand.

So please understand that updating the product page is the most time consuming venue to disseminate information, and the one most likely to get people even more upset if it turns out our estimates are off. If we delay 5 days and actually get it out in 3, everyone's happy, but if we say we're delaying a week and then it turns into two due to factors outside our control, people just get more upset. Because there's so many factors where a product page update can go wrong and because it has the most barriers to getting information to people, we use the most efficient channels we have (which are usually posts in the product thread and on social media from our marketing and communications specialist) to get the information out as early as possible for the people who are affected.

We're adding people and improving processes as fast as we can. That's not as fast as anyone would like, us included, and it's compounded by a never-ending deluge of logistical issues, most of which are entirely out of our control. You can see where Brian talks a bit about the technological speedbumps we're working through here.

So your criticisms are valid and noted, just please understand that everyone at Paizo is doing everything they can. For you, a product delay means your planned game gets kicked to next week. For me, it means things like looking at Secrets of Magic, Guns & Gears, and Grand Bazaar all slated to release far too close to each other without giving consumer's wallets time to recover and knowing that the situation could negatively impact the sales performance of all three books, which could cascade into whether I get a bonus, a raise, or the ability to request better rates for my freelancers.


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I can partially understand that

I am still wondering - why do you from paizo, with all those logistical problems around the physical version of the game keep to the point that everyone who wants the pdf, where the release should not be a problem and shipping is irrelevant, still keep the date the same?

It is not like the pdf is not already out there. It is just in the hands of a lucky few and everyone else is effed.

Why not split the pdf from the physical copy?

Physical copies are rarely going to be exactly on time anyway. Hundreds arive to early, thousands to late - and the ones who are satisfied with a digital copy get punished because of it

Also consider the people who get the physical copy anyway and might buy the digital one to pass the time

Paizo Employee Designer

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Seisho wrote:

I can partially understand that

I am still wondering - why do you from paizo, with all those logistical problems around the physical version of the game keep to the point that everyone who wants the pdf, where the release should not be a problem and shipping is irrelevant, still keep the date the same?

It is not like the pdf is not already out there. It is just in the hands of a lucky few and everyone else is effed.

Why not split the pdf from the physical copy?

Because there is still no better marketing tool than having our books on shelves at game and book stores, and many such businesses see the fact that we offer PDFs at all as being an anti-FLGS / anti-brick-and-mortar practice. There is an extremely high chance that we would lose way more money by alienating game stores than we'd ever make back in early PDF sales. This isn't speculation, either. We know what our PDF sales are and FLGSs and chain stores are often not even a little shy about telling us when they cut down on how much of our product they order or move us to the back corner of the store instead of putting our product in the main display case, because they feel that we're screwing them over by having e-commerce options.

Right now we have a pretty functional relationship with such retailers who mostly understand that we're a small company like them and need that option in our repertoire to protect our interests. We'd be downright idiotic to endanger that relationship at a point in time where game publishers are going out of business left and right due to a variety of COVID-related issues and other obstacles.

Silver Crusade

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Michael Sayre wrote:
we use the most efficient channels we have (which are usually posts in the product thread

First, thanks for listening and replying.

If I could make what is hopefully a simple suggestion? Instead of posting a delay in the release down in (literally, in this case) post 400 odd of an already long thread, perhaps you could use a post stickied to be the first post (or one of the first posts) in that thread?

Paizo Employee Designer

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pauljathome wrote:
Michael Sayre wrote:
we use the most efficient channels we have (which are usually posts in the product thread

First, thanks for listening and replying.

If I could make what is hopefully a simple suggestion? Instead of posting a delay in the release down in (literally, in this case) post 400 odd of an already long thread, perhaps you could use a post stickied to be the first post (or one of the first posts) in that thread?

I will absolutely bring that up to Aaron! I have no idea if it's possible or not (we can sticky threads, I'm not sure if we have post functionality?), but we'll look into it.


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Your website must be incredibly idiosyncratic if changing 6 characters on on your big new release is an impossible task.

If keeping correct dates on your product pages is an impossible task why have the dates on them at all, their only going to be misleading for those want to buy your products through your website without having to look through hundreds of tweets or forum post to find the correct information.

I know that website direct purchases are a small part of paizo' business but it will always seem utterly counterintuitive to me for the last page people see before they buy your products to have least up to date information on it.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Michael Sayre wrote:
Seisho wrote:

I can partially understand that

I am still wondering - why do you from paizo, with all those logistical problems around the physical version of the game keep to the point that everyone who wants the pdf, where the release should not be a problem and shipping is irrelevant, still keep the date the same?

It is not like the pdf is not already out there. It is just in the hands of a lucky few and everyone else is effed.

Why not split the pdf from the physical copy?

Because there is still no better marketing tool than having our books on shelves at game and book stores, and many such businesses see the fact that we offer PDFs at all as being an anti-FLGS / anti-brick-and-mortar practice. There is an extremely high chance that we would lose way more money by alienating game stores than we'd ever make back in early PDF sales. This isn't speculation, either. We know what our PDF sales are and FLGSs and chain stores are often not even a little shy about telling us when they cut down on how much of our product they order or move us to the back corner of the store instead of putting our product in the main display case, because they feel that we're screwing them over by having e-commerce options.

Right now we have a pretty functional relationship with such retailers who mostly understand that we're a small company like them and need that option in our repertoire to protect our interests. We'd be downright idiotic to endanger that relationship at a point in time where game publishers are going out of business left and right due to a variety of COVID-related issues and other obstacles.

And it suuuucks when your local game store has a poor relationship with your favorite publisher. No hype, no recommendations, no staff knowledge, no effort to help get groups or events going. Your area's hobby will be harmed in a lot of invisible ways.

It's a shame though, because I would love to move to a more flexible digital future, and I'd like game stores to come along with the rest of us. I wish there was a way to collectively negotiate that future with them.


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siegfriedliner wrote:

Your website must be incredibly idiosyncratic if changing 6 characters on on your big new release is an impossible task.

If keeping correct dates on your product pages is an impossible task why have the dates on them at all, their only going to be misleading for those want to buy your products through your website without having to look through hundreds of tweets or forum post to find the correct information.

I know that website direct purchases are a small part of paizo' business but it will always seem utterly counterintuitive to me for the last page people see before they buy your products to have least up to date information on it.

It's described as an impossible task when it all comes down to a single employee capable of making said change, and said employee being swamped with over a week's worth of work in a long, digital queue. And with not all employees being in a central office location to quickly prioritize and contact them, that exacerbates the issues even further.

Like, I get it. I really do get the frustrations, y'all. But please, actually read and comprehend the stuff Mr. Sayre is saying about their company, and realize that smarmily boiling down their infrastructure issues to "why can't you just do X" isn't helpful as a critique or even necessary at all.

Customer Service Representative

Moved to Paizo/General Discussion.

Marketing & Media Manager

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Thank you for the feedback. We apologize for the miscommunication. In the future we will work to coordinate social media and store updates internally so that both are simultaneous. Clear communication with customers in this time of increased change is our goal.


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Just my two cents, but I don't follow Paizo on Twitter (I don't follow anyone on Twitter), nor do I follow Paizo on Facebook (I don't follow anyone on Facebook), nor do I read all the blog posts, nor do I check the Customer Service forums regularly - I figure(d) that the web store, the place where actual money is exchanged, would have the most accurate information.

Okay, maybe three cents: because people have been posting about receiving books, it didn't raise any red flags about the release being delayed.

I did learn about the product delay a few days ago, but only because someone on Discord was making fun of someone else on Discord for posting "Can't wait until the 25th!" Man, I bet it sucks to be that person who was so excited about SOM to get the one-two gut punch of finding out that (a) the release is delayed, and (b) everyone else seemed to know about it.

Overall, it's a nice problem for Paizo to have - a lot of people are so excited about your books that they're circling dates on their calendars and taking days off to prepare for it. As an employer, I highly disapprove, but as a player, I totally understand.


pauljathome wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

I’m guessing at least part of the problem is that the webstore needs a date and that “coming soon” isn’t a feasible answer.

I may be in the minority but I'd strongly prefer "TBD" or "product release delayed. Stay tuned" ( preferably but not necessarily with an explanation) to the wrong date.

Oh sure. There’s clearly an issue.

What I meant is I suspect the software won’t accept a TBD but is rather expecting a date.


Michael Sayre wrote:
Seisho wrote:

I can partially understand that

I am still wondering - why do you from paizo, with all those logistical problems around the physical version of the game keep to the point that everyone who wants the pdf, where the release should not be a problem and shipping is irrelevant, still keep the date the same?

It is not like the pdf is not already out there. It is just in the hands of a lucky few and everyone else is effed.

Why not split the pdf from the physical copy?

Because there is still no better marketing tool than having our books on shelves at game and book stores, and many such businesses see the fact that we offer PDFs at all as being an anti-FLGS / anti-brick-and-mortar practice. There is an extremely high chance that we would lose way more money by alienating game stores than we'd ever make back in early PDF sales. This isn't speculation, either. We know what our PDF sales are and FLGSs and chain stores are often not even a little shy about telling us when they cut down on how much of our product they order or move us to the back corner of the store instead of putting our product in the main display case, because they feel that we're screwing them over by having e-commerce options.

Right now we have a pretty functional relationship with such retailers who mostly understand that we're a small company like them and need that option in our repertoire to protect our interests. We'd be downright idiotic to endanger that relationship at a point in time where game publishers are going out of business left and right due to a variety of COVID-related issues and other obstacles.

God I wish this wasn't the case but it is 100% true. I love FLGS' and what they do for spreading our hobby but also hate how they clench their pearls when any thing that makes games more accessible doesn't go directly through them.

I would love to see a system where PDF and digital were released at the same time that retailers can take advantage of but haven't thought of it. That would be one fine silver bullet.

For my end I wait for the PDF for 2 reasons. Even with the delay I'll get it faster and I only can still play via VTT so integration with those beats out physical copies. I understand the delay, but I was one of those that looked at the store for the release date and had a disappoint when I refreshed it to find out its September. No shade, I'll read it soon enough


Michael Sayre wrote:
Seisho wrote:

I can partially understand that

I am still wondering - why do you from paizo, with all those logistical problems around the physical version of the game keep to the point that everyone who wants the pdf, where the release should not be a problem and shipping is irrelevant, still keep the date the same?

It is not like the pdf is not already out there. It is just in the hands of a lucky few and everyone else is effed.

Why not split the pdf from the physical copy?

Because there is still no better marketing tool than having our books on shelves at game and book stores, and many such businesses see the fact that we offer PDFs at all as being an anti-FLGS / anti-brick-and-mortar practice. There is an extremely high chance that we would lose way more money by alienating game stores than we'd ever make back in early PDF sales. This isn't speculation, either. We know what our PDF sales are and FLGSs and chain stores are often not even a little shy about telling us when they cut down on how much of our product they order or move us to the back corner of the store instead of putting our product in the main display case, because they feel that we're screwing them over by having e-commerce options.

Right now we have a pretty functional relationship with such retailers who mostly understand that we're a small company like them and need that option in our repertoire to protect our interests. We'd be downright idiotic to endanger that relationship at a point in time where game publishers are going out of business left and right due to a variety of COVID-related issues and other obstacles.

I can get behind that reasoning.

I honestly don't like how it is, but I can understand it.
That is really crappy of the retailers imo.

Thanks for explaining it.
Knowing this does not make me any happier, but understanding it still helps.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Delmont91 wrote:
I would love to see a system where PDF and digital were released at the same time that retailers can take advantage of but haven't thought of it. That would be one fine silver bullet.

I wonder if it would make any sense to try to get game stores into a printing service model. If there were some low cost but decent quality large format printers, game stores could get access to high resolution map and handout files from Paizo and charge customers for printing them. Or they could sell cheap, spiral bound book PDF printouts when the PDFs go on sale. They could charge cost of materials + profit margin if the customer proves they purchased the PDF from Paizo already.

I'd love to be able to go to my game store to get high quality (maybe even laminated) maps.

Probably a pipe dream though.


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cavernshark wrote:
It's reasonable to be disappointed in the delay, maybe even frustrated by how it was communicated, but attacking the company and it's employees over a 7-day delay and the inconveniences it's placed on you tells a little more on you than it does on them.

Taken as an individual incident I would absolutely agree. If we are unable to wait seven days for a luxury item, we have much bigger problems. However, Paizo often takes actions or fails to do so that at minimum disappoint and at times aggravate and irritate their customers. It is at these times that we take the opportunity to express our feelings which is exactly what social media like this forum is for. Not everyone believes that Paizo is some kind of sanctified entity impervious to criticism, but there are some that clearly do.

Grand Lodge

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Seisho wrote:
That is really crappy of the retailers imo.

Retailers have a very legitimate complaint. Not that Paizo is wrong for their methodology. The subscription model was inventive when it was started and certainly provides revenue stability, but let's face it, Paizo gets the bonus of offering a free PDF that the retailers cannot match. That means your FLGS has to either depend on the altruism of their customers or they have to discount from the retail to compete. Its why there is a very large number of retailers who dislike selling Paizo products and many refuse to stock them at all or only doing on-demand ordering. We can certainly argue about those actions being ideal or even reasonable, but we cannot dispute the fact that Paizo has set up a competitive relationship with the retails whom they want to distribute.

Paizo Employee

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TwilightKnight wrote:


Retailers have a very legitimate complaint. Not that Paizo is wrong for their methodology. The subscription model was inventive when it was started and certainly provides revenue stability, but let's face it, Paizo gets the bonus of offering a free PDF that the retailers cannot match. That means your FLGS has to either depend on the altruism of their customers or they have to discount from the retail to compete. Its why there is a very large number of retailers who dislike selling Paizo products and many refuse to stock them at all or only doing on-demand ordering. We can certainly argue about those actions being ideal or even reasonable, but we cannot dispute the fact that Paizo has set up a competitive relationship with the retails whom they want to distribute.

I'll note from a personal perspective, shipping costs for books can be prohibitively expensive unless you're an all-in subscriber. When I was on a tight budget and wasn't getting an employee discount on my Pathfinder books, I had basically three tiers for purchasing Paizo products (and one business-related "4th tier")-

1) "No overtime, no sales bonus, standard release timing."- I buy from Amazon because between their day 1 discounts and free Prime shipping, this was the only affordable option for me if I wanted a new book close to release.

2) "Standard release timing but I just picked up a little unexpected cash in royalties off an old product." - I buy the book from Amazon and the PDF from Paizo so I can support the company directly. This almost always still came out to be cheaper than buying the book at cost or even with the 10% game night discount because Amazon's day 1 discounts are often 25% or more for hardcovers.

3) "Flush from a big job that paid enough I had an entertainment budget." - I buy from the FLGS to support my friends and local businesses.

4) "None of the local FLGSs have a book I need and if I don't have that book to reference during this project, it will take significantly more effort to produce." - I buy it from Paizo directly, paying more in shipping than I would have spent on the PDF, and foregoing the PDF for the time being (I just work faster when I can keep a real book open next to me, though I like PDFs for tablet reading and table references.)

Times (and Amazon) are rough on FLGSs, and as someone who's spent a lot of time in FLGSs, met my wife in a FLGS, and played some of my most memorable D&D and Pathfinder games with the staff of an FLGS, I don't begrudge them doing what they can to protect their interests, profits, and employees (unless they're protecting their profits at the expense of their employees, which I only mention because of seeing it happen before and not wanting those affected employees to see this post and think I'm telling them to "suck it up".)

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