DRD1812 |
There's this interesting tension between paladin auras (beneficial auras of all kinds really) and the desire to not get clobbered by fireballs. Sticking together in a "standard marching order" is a great way to take advantage of proximity-based buffs, but it's also a great way to get everyone hit by AoEs.
So here's my question for the board: How do you weigh risks and rewards when it comes to tactical positioning? Do you like to space yourselves 15' apart, or is it better to make sure everyone gets that sweet +4 morale bonus vs fear, charm, etc.? I'm sure the answer is "it depends," but what's your personal litmus test? Does it change depending on expected enemy? Cramped dungeons vs. open world terrain?
Kamicosmos |
I think you also need to add the meta-status of Group Type.
I have noticed in Organized Play, people are much more concerned about friendly fire and 'clumping up' than players are in home games. Almost detrimentally so. I'm sure the bulk of that is the whole PuG aspect of playing with people you may or may not know well, compared to a group of regulars at the table. But, it's an interesting social interaction thing I've noticed over the years when playing at OP tables.
Tim Emrick |
In my experience with organized play, what usually happens is that the players whose PCs grant proximity-based buffs (paladin auras, Bodyguard, a Scarab Sage's elemental ward, etc.) will inform the others that those buffs are available at the start of the scenario, then it's up to the other players to decide how much their PCs take advantage of them. Some players will be paranoid about "bunching up," especially if a foe is known to have AoEs. Others may have a schtick that involves a lot of moving about the battlefield to use effectively (charging, Spring Attack, flight, etc.).
The openness of the encounter site definitely plays a part. In a cramped dungeon or structure, moving in tight formation might be the only way for everyone to be able to see and target enemies, so a well-placed AoE is a very real risk. On an open battlefield, it's often a good idea to spread out more--but not so much that the foes can easily move in and cut you off from each other.
Bjørn Røyrvik's solution is one I'm personally very fond of, though it's hard to pull off until higher levels, unless everyone is willing and able to dip rogue or monk. In one of my home games (which is now very high level), our heal-bot oracle has life-link always running on every PC, and shield other on two of our front-liners. (But not the armor master, who is MUCH harder to hit.) However, in one session in the middle levels, too many of us failed the save vs. a nasty AoE, and shunted too much damage to her, and she died. She promptly got raised, and most of us have since bought rings of evasion to help prevent that happening again.
MrCharisma |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not directly relevant, but I've always wanted to play a Half-Elf Paladin with Fearless Aura and Ultimate Resolve, just so a small army could benefit from the auras ...
Half-Elf (Advanced Race Guide pg. 43): Add +1 foot to the size of all the paladin's aura class features. This option has no effect unless the paladin has selected it 5 times (or another increment
Bjørn Røyrvik |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Don't forget Widen auras.
One of the paladins in my group has WA and Fearless Aura, and that has come in very useful on numerous occasions.
Lemartes |
Not directly relevant, but I've always wanted to play a Half-Elf Paladin with Fearless Aura and Ultimate Resolve, just so a small army could benefit from the auras ...
PALADIN FCB wrote:Half-Elf (Advanced Race Guide pg. 43): Add +1 foot to the size of all the paladin's aura class features. This option has no effect unless the paladin has selected it 5 times (or another increment
Ha I had a similar aura master paladin build idea. :)
VoodistMonk |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Given that so very few things outright kill you immediately or in one hit, the advantages often outwiegh the risks.
I would rather have my party standing atound me, albeit smoking a little bit and a wee bit charred, rather than fleeing in terror or charmed/dominated.
We are all big boys here, we can take a Fireball in the name of teamwork. Hey, at least we all took it together, right? Lol.
Carrauntoohil |
Don't forget Widen auras.
One of the paladins in my group has WA and Fearless Aura, and that has come in very useful on numerous occasions.
This is good, but I'm assuming the standard clause about PF doubling applies so stacking with Fearless Aura would give 30'?
Bjørn Røyrvik |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think that's probably what they intend it, but the actual language is conflicting.
While Fearless Aura says the radius expands and can then be reasonably interpreted to be a doubling, Ultimate Resolve says nothing about doubling the radius, it just say that the radius is now 20'. Without a note about doubling an existing number, just replacing it with a new one, you could easily argue that adding in the first sentence of Widen Auras doubling the radius means you'd have a 40' radius. Of course the second sentence seems to indicate that you don't get any more than a 20' radius no matter what.
I allowed the most favorable interpretation of a 40' radius. It means fear isn't a thing anymore, to certain enemies' frustration.
Hugo Rune |
Generally, there should be someone on point to identify hazards in advance of the main party. This person should have a high perception and be reasonably stealthy. They should be ahead of the party but only by the closer of vision or one move action. If their stealth is high enough, there may be occasions when the opponent spots the main party before the one on point and gets caught off guard. At the back should be someone with a high AC and HP who can take a surprise hit from an ambush. The wizard should be in the middle.
Of course there are countless circumstances where something different should be done.
Carrauntoohil |
I think that's probably what they intend it, but the actual language is conflicting.
While Fearless Aura says the radius expands and can then be reasonably interpreted to be a doubling, Ultimate Resolve says nothing about doubling the radius, it just say that the radius is now 20'.
That's an excellent point actually. Even with Fearless, it's still reasonable to say that it doesn't specify a doubling so they should both be stackable with Widen Auras.
Yeah, I'd have ruled it the same way as you did on closer inspection.
Mark Hoover 330 |
There is a vanilla paladin in 2 of my games. One has only made it to level 3 and went on hiatus, so there's no real "default" strategy there but the other is nearly level 7 and the strategy is simple: every PC deals as much damage as quickly as possible.
Seriously, the only time anyone ever uses a Delay or Readied action is ONLY when they feel their character has absolutely nothing else to do. Flanking is never the goal but more of a "happy accident" after the first person enters melee.
The characters all rolled stats so their attributes are ridiculously high. Everyone's AC is cranked as high as possible, the only PC with any bad saves is the Fire Wizard that never gets anywhere near melee, they've got jacked up HP and of course they all hit like sledgehammers.
So recently when they decided to take on a dragon they knew it generated some kind of Fear effect. The paladin speaks up and informs the rest of the players that if their characters remain within 10' of him they'll get a boost to saves. It was literally the first time any of them heard of the paladin's auras or his Shaken Mercy since they've never been a factor in play this whole time.
I think the lesson is that players will use progressively stronger combat strategy in relation to the PERCEIVED threat of the monster or foe the characters are facing. When the players feel invincible, their "default" is maxing out their damage on their initiative, nothing more. If the threat makes the players believe their characters are ACTUALLY in danger then they suddenly get real attentive to every possible advantage they might have.
DRD1812 |
I think the lesson is that players will use progressively stronger combat strategy in relation to the PERCEIVED threat of the monster or foe the characters are facing.
That's an astute observation. Particularly because players are prone to missing critical information. If you don't PERCEIVE that you're facing a fear-causing enemy, you won't remember that you've got abilities to combat that. And you certainly won't think to remind the table so that they can adjust tactics accordingly.
Makes me wonder if the "standees with signs describing buffs" method is the ideal here. That way folks have a visual reminder of abilities that otherwise get buried in their buddies' character sheets.
TxSam88 |
I've never noticed the paladin aura abilities powerful enough to really be worth worrying about. I'm GMing Carrion Crown right now, which has tons of Will/CON saves against the party, and unless someone rolls a one, they pretty much never fail. (The DC's on most of the effects is fairly low to begin with, 15-17)
Mark Hoover 330 |
I've never noticed the paladin aura abilities powerful enough to really be worth worrying about. I'm GMing Carrion Crown right now, which has tons of Will/CON saves against the party, and unless someone rolls a one, they pretty much never fail. (The DC's on most of the effects is fairly low to begin with, 15-17)
15 point buy or something else? What classes? How experienced are the players?
The CRB came out in 2009 and the original rules assumed specific classes, limited feats, no traits and a 15 point buy. Monsters/NPCs were generally built with between an 8-17 point buy, but usually hover right around a 10 point spread on average. Finally, based on these numbers, the Monster Creation guidelines suggest the avg monster's good ability DCs start off around DC 12 and increase starting at CR 1 the same way 3/4 BAB goes up (12 at CR1, 13 at CR2, 14 at CR3, 15 at CR4 and 5, 16 at CR5 and so on). Last but not least, Carrion Crown released between early to mid 2011 so the foes in the AP would largely have followed these math constraints.
My point is that as more and more splatbooks were added the power creep and level of potential optimization for PCs increased exponentially. The monsters and APs however all stayed exactly the same. Even WITH a 15 point buy there are plenty of ways to increase a PC's saves, and at a 20 point buy or more and some extensive optimizing most saves will become trivial.
This is why I homebrew so much. If monsters/foes are generally supposed to be about 5 point buy points behind the PCs and have about 1/4th the gear PCs have, that's where I keep them. Then when the players roll their stats and use Downtime to manufacture tons of gear, suddenly the foes they face automatically get the Advanced template applied or have their stats increased, or have 2 NPC levels added or whatever I need to do in order to keep the PCs from absolutely steamrolling everything on the map.