Lack of Transformation Abilities

[Cyrad]

I expected more transformation and adaptation abilities for a class centered around transformation and adaptation.

From a mechanics and thematic standpoint, I mean:

1. The class does not give you any abilities that let you fully transform into a creature. I wasn't expecting a druid wild shape, but the class lacks the mechanics to realize the numerous tropes and characters in science fiction that have shapeshifting abilities or alternate forms.

2. There are no abilities that allow you to alter your appearance in any meaningful way. It doesn't matter that your class features are flavored as altering yourself -- you still need a disguise kit to look like something other than yourself. Mutating yourself gives you no bonus to Disguise. The best you get is a discount for Adaptive Skin.

3. Lack of adaptation and customization. Only one of the main uses of EP actually give you extra tactical options. The other three merely circumvent the class's numerous weaknesses. Aside from choosing your niche and the usual talents, there's not much customization to your new glorious evolution.

[Nyerkh]

I was wondering how the team would tackle the concept, because I saw two main ways to approach the concept.

It could have gone the shifter route, with temporary changes via metamorphosis.
Or the way of a progressive remaking of your body, overhauling your physical shell into something entirely different over the course of your career. Which is closer to what we're seeing, if not in a way I'm entirely satisfied with so far (but that's playtests are for).

It's no less valid and I'm more interested in that approach, myself.
We can have a shifter-esque class - or an archetype, which I believe I'd enjoy more - later on, as a separate thing.

I have issues with the class as it is now, but this is not one of them.

[Rhunny]

Given how I understand the flavour of this class, I would have loved to see some size alteration mechanics

[Wesrolter]

Or something like the Alchemist discoveries. The ability to actually make some changes to yourself, like gaining wings, a third/5th/7th arm depending on race.

[Nyerkh]

I mean, everyone can gain up to two more arms, and evolutionists get them cheaper.

I feel like the way it's designed, it might be the most a class has depended on wealth, in an unorthodox way. With a free weapon and a discount on augmentations, it seems built to overinvest and depend on those.
Weirdly, there's not much of a reward for doing that though, beyond augments being their own reward.

[Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion]

Nyerkh wrote:

I mean, everyone can gain up to two more arms, and evolutionists get them cheaper.

I feel like the way it's designed, it might be the most a class has depended on wealth, in an unorthodox way. With a free weapon and a discount on augmentations, it seems built to overinvest and depend on those.
Weirdly, there's not much of a reward for doing that though, beyond augments being their own reward.

There is a power at one point that lets you gain extra EP based on your augments. I am hoping there are more things later. (Like the ability to super charge, or alter augments possibly?)

[Garretmander]

Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion wrote:

Nyerkh wrote:

I mean, everyone can gain up to two more arms, and evolutionists get them cheaper.

I feel like the way it's designed, it might be the most a class has depended on wealth, in an unorthodox way. With a free weapon and a discount on augmentations, it seems built to overinvest and depend on those.
Weirdly, there's not much of a reward for doing that though, beyond augments being their own reward.

There is a power at one point that lets you gain extra EP based on your augments. I am hoping there are more things later. (Like the ability to super charge, or alter augments possibly?)

Maybe something like an adaptive augmentation? You can install three augments in one specific slot and switch them out by spending resolve once per 10 min rest.

[lightwitch]

I think that a wealth-dependent class isn't a bad option, but there needs to be consideration for the sort of adventure you might be running. In Pf2, you don't need a full-on Uberwaldian laboratory with thunder and lightning to be an Alchemist, and neither should you need a legion of trained surgeons to support your Evolutionist, not least because this feels like something you should be making yourself. In my opinion, one good solution to this would be making it easier to craft your own augmentations, using either your niche's skill, or a caster level check.

Speaking of niches, they are meant to be your transformative journey from Humanoid (Darwinist) to whatever creature types Starfinder, the 130+ species RPG, contains. Instead they feel like a few combat abilities, an useful capstone and an arbitrary declaration of completeness. If I pick Dragon, my Eldritch Evolutionist has only a few of their classic abilities - no Frightful Presence, no wings, no innate spellcasting, just the Adaption which grants a burst or line weapon special. I think that permanent transformations should be a part of your Niche, perhaps more than the generic combat options.
After all, what is an evolutionist without the ability to slowly and permanently adapt themselves to improve their chances of survival?

I also feel that the adaptions should be more permanent. Genetics doesn't do short term combat buffs (it does, but making-adrenaline-etc +1s, not suddenly growing wings). The granting of a fly Speed should be something which happens perhaps as an option for your niche - a Vital evolutionist might pick from flight, climbing, gills, faster land speed etc. when emulating their chosen animal. That also helps differentiate you mechanically from any fool with a set of jet boots.

In conclusion, I think that evolutionists should be able to transform themselves so that they are not merely evolving in-combat, which is odd, unsatisfying and annoying.

[Nyerkh]

That's an interesting point. If augments are that important, and the evolutionist is the specialist, not having to depend on a surgeon would be nice.
You do get the skills to craft your augmentations, but maybe evos could get a way of installing their own without Medicine, on their own ?

[jrock9430]

Nyerkh wrote:

That's an interesting point. If augments are that important, and the evolutionist is the specialist, not having to depend on a surgeon would be nice.

You do get the skills to craft your augmentations, but maybe evos could get a way of installing their own without Medicine, on their own ?

I mentioned something sort of like this here: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43fpx?Evolutionist-Playtest#19

[JiCi]

Yeah, that should be part of the niches. Each niche is associated with one or more creature type, so adding the ability to shapeshift into one would be logicial.

[Dracomicron]

JiCi wrote:

Yeah, that should be part of the niches. Each niche is associated with one or more creature type, so adding the ability to shapeshift into one would be logicial.

I think an epic 10th level ability would be the ability to go into Crinos form (from Werewolf: the Apocalypse), basically a merging of regular traits and the niche creature traits built for some particular purpose (some might not even be battle forms). Maybe have a list of polymorph-type abilities separate from the adaptations (like Envoy Talents are separate from Improvisations or Soldier Gear Boosts are separate from Combat Feats.

Then at level 20 you just are that creature permanently.

[jrock9430]

Dracomicron wrote:

JiCi wrote:

Yeah, that should be part of the niches. Each niche is associated with one or more creature type, so adding the ability to shapeshift into one would be logicial.

I think an epic 10th level ability would be the ability to go into Crinos form (from Werewolf: the Apocalypse), basically a merging of regular traits and the niche creature traits built for some particular purpose (some might not even be battle forms). Maybe have a list of polymorph-type abilities separate from the adaptations (like Envoy Talents are separate from Improvisations or Soldier Gear Boosts are separate from Combat Feats.

Then at level 20 you just are that creature permanently.

I concur 100%

[Wesrolter]

Also not a fan that their main 'alteration' capacity is pretty much what every other class has access to... Augmentations. Yes, they can be cheap for a specific Evo but I think its just cheap as a concept.

[Dracomicron]

Wesrolter wrote:

Also not a fan that their main 'alteration' capacity is pretty much what every other class has access to... Augmentations. Yes, they can be cheap for a specific Evo but I think its just cheap as a concept.

I'd be way more into a rough equivalent of what the nanocyte gets. A certain number of free augmentations, which can be changed on level-up like a SRO does.

[Cyrad]

Indeed.

Honestly, I'd feel much better about the class if it gave you Adaptive Skin or a similar ability for free. It feels off that I have to buy an item so my shapeshifting class can actually shapeshift.

[Rysky the Dark Solarion]

"Free up to XxLevel" Would be a neat overhaul.