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Currently you're encouraged and penalized for storing and using your EP.
You gain increasing bonuses through your "universal instinct" (maybe? That whole section needs to be rewritten so people know that the EP track is the instinct as opposed to a missing ability between the track) that slowly build up over a fight. But you also gain your Drawback for having any and have to spend them to use your Niche's abilities, so your bonuses and abilities you have access to per round are on a slider that changes every round, which is a rather big cognitive load that can easily lead to mistakes being made.
It doesn't really promote tactical play in choosing whether to conserve or spend your EP, it's just frustrating and confusing.
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Currently you're encouraged and penalized for storing and using your EP.
You gain increasing bonuses through your "universal instinct" (maybe? That whole section needs to be rewritten so people know that the EP track is the instinct as opposed to a missing ability between the track) that slowly build up over a fight. But you also gain your Drawback for having any and have to spend them to use your Niche's abilities, so your bonuses and abilities you have access to per round are on a slider that changes every round, which is a rather big cognitive load that can easily lead to mistakes being made.
It doesn't really promote tactical play in choosing whether to conserve or spend your EP, it's just frustrating and confusing.
I agree. I've been gaming for nearly 40 years, and I'm honestly dreading the Evolution Point Teeter Totter. I have enough trouble remembering to use my vanguard's Entropy Points sometimes if I have had a long day... if I should be getting different bonuses and suffering penalties for collecting too many, I just know I'm going to zone that out at some point.
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Ayup.
It should be either something you build up (Solarion) or spend (Vanguard), not both.
Yeah, the EP (really need a new name) doesn't make sense. I haven't seen another class that is penalized for trying to have abilities and the fluctuation of its bonuses and negatives would be a pain.
Except that teeter totter is the whole point of the class given the description. How do you balance your power with your loss of control.
No?
And that description isn't even backed up by the current implementation, since there's absolutely no loss of control (the Drawback happens at 1 EP, it doesn't grow worse), it's WHAT abilities and bonuses you have ping-pong every round, which is just confusing, it's not thematic or interesting.
AH, my apologies, they do indeed have a worse step at EP 3.
That's even worse... again, we're being penalized for playing the character, rather than having a penalty to balance a nice boost.
And even that aside, the ping-pong losing and gaining of abilities depending on how much EP you have is still needlessly confusing.
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I certainly won't argue with anyone who says this is too complicated a class for them to enjoy. The whole theme of this class is basically "this is a fighter who exists in constant flux changing round by round in sometimes wild and unpredictable ways. "
But as a class that does that, it does that well. Which is what I like about it. (My daughter play tested hers tonight.)
But in that case why would I just not play a Soldier?
What does it do well?
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I certainly won't argue with anyone who says this is too complicated a class for them to enjoy. The whole theme of this class is basically "this is a fighter who exists in constant flux changing round by round in sometimes wild and unpredictable ways. "
But as a class that does that, it does that well. Which is what I like about it. (My daughter play tested hers tonight.)
You know I have mad respect for your daughter for playing with the big kids as she does, but I have to ask, did she actually recalculate her Evolutionist's stats round-by-round and utilize her arsenal of powers effectively?
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You know I have mad respect for your daughter for playing with the big kids as she does, but I have to ask, did she actually recalculate her Evolutionist's stats round-by-round and utilize her arsenal of powers effectively?I certainly won't argue with anyone who says this is too complicated a class for them to enjoy. The whole theme of this class is basically "this is a fighter who exists in constant flux changing round by round in sometimes wild and unpredictable ways. "
But as a class that does that, it does that well. Which is what I like about it. (My daughter play tested hers tonight.)
It was the first session. So she mostly didn't get above 1-2 EPs. (Especially since we got jumped in the first fight and evolutionists start with 0 bab, so she wound up having to spend for a swift action draw weapon. But she did consider trading out speed bonus for the extra +1 to hit.
Actually having to track all that kept her more engaged in combat than I have ever seen her. (Usually she has a hard time not wandering off between turns.)
Or decoupling some abilities from EP so that they're always on, or at least have uses outside of combat.
I read the EP ability and I said next. The rest of the class looks nice. I was hoping for the ability that allows my character to evolve over time. Like the summoner. I get to pick different abilities and they level up with me. Sort of like how the shifter class from 1st edition.
If the final version is anything like this I won’t allow one at my tables, just because if the constant changing of abilities and all the tracking.
I don’t mind the drawbacks as that reminds me of the oracles curse. And I quite like it. Evolving gives you good stuff but comes at some penalty. I don’t really see how this is any different than the Oracle??? Am I missing something?
Basing the drawback effects on number of EP is too much to calculate. It’s changing every turn and feels like a lot of bookkeeping that shouldn’t be needed.
I also feel Paizo gets way to wordy with their stuff and it over complicated things.
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Lets look at this:
Up till level 6, there are only 5 things:
A speed increase (+5, +10)
A weapon enhancement (turning on a crit effect, and a once a round damage bonus)
A +1 armor bonus.
For the armor bonus and the weapon effects, that is no more complicated than a shield fighter or a weapon mechanic. (Did you calibrate your weapon? Are you using overload? Did you position your shield?)
As far as speed changes, again, not really different than a character with jump jets (with the advantage that evolutionists don't have to track rounds of power consumption.)
This isn't like a 1E barbarian, where raging changes your str and con, and then you have to figure out all the stats that changes.
As for the drawbacks, there really isn't any "calculating" that needs to be done? It is just "do you have EP?" "do you have 3+ ep?"
Lets look at this:
Up till level 6, there are only 5 things:
A speed increase (+5, +10)
A weapon enhancement (turning on a crit effect, and a once a round damage bonus)
A +1 armor bonus.For the armor bonus and the weapon effects, that is no more complicated than a shield fighter or a weapon mechanic. (Did you calibrate your weapon? Are you using overload? Did you position your shield?)
As far as speed changes, again, not really different than a character with jump jets (with the advantage that evolutionists don't have to track rounds of power consumption.)
This isn't like a 1E barbarian, where raging changes your str and con, and then you have to figure out all the stats that changes.
As for the drawbacks, there really isn't any "calculating" that needs to be done? It is just "do you have EP?" "do you have 3+ ep?"
There is calculations involved. Your EP is changing EVERY around. Your either gain and/or spend. Then you have to go an recalculate those abilities.
The barbarian wasn’t that bad. Because it wasn’t changing every round. So you easily have a second character sheet with the recalculates stats or a second page with that. Where as this is ok ok babe 3 Ep next round I have 4. What do I spend? Now what do I have? This is too much calculations every round.
Then there is ok do I have enough EP for the speed boosts. Do I need to move before I spend them. As where someone with jump jets, the speed doesn’t fluctuate every round. Most fights don’t go long enough to even consider running our. Then with several abilities to recharge outside of combat or how cheap the batteries are this isn’t a concern for most situations.
That’s not alot to truly track till 6th level. Then consider everything else after 6 to keep updating. Plus all the other things you keep track of.
Under the Mechanized niche you the damage you take from all type except the 2 you selected by half your EP. You have to recalculate this every round. That becomes excessive after awhile.
I don’t understand why you are trying to defend a mechanic that is just horrible and isn’t needed. There are simpler, elegant solutions.
The EP ability as written is just plain bad mechanically. Conceptually i like it.
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Lets look at this:
Up till level 6, there are only 5 things:
A speed increase (+5, +10)
A weapon enhancement (turning on a crit effect, and a once a round damage bonus)
A +1 armor bonus.For the armor bonus and the weapon effects, that is no more complicated than a shield fighter or a weapon mechanic. (Did you calibrate your weapon? Are you using overload? Did you position your shield?)
As far as speed changes, again, not really different than a character with jump jets (with the advantage that evolutionists don't have to track rounds of power consumption.)
This isn't like a 1E barbarian, where raging changes your str and con, and then you have to figure out all the stats that changes.
As for the drawbacks, there really isn't any "calculating" that needs to be done? It is just "do you have EP?" "do you have 3+ ep?"
Those are 5 more things than I would like to track on my turn, especially since they don't relate to the actual actions I'm taking. It's easy to remember that I used my move action to raise my shield, but calculating that I lost an AC because I spent 2 EP to give myself full BAB and Reach? That's not intuitive.
This is on top of the fact that all of your instincts and whatnot rely on totals like half your current EP... sometimes rounding up, sometimes rounding down, and if you have too many EP that triggers your drawback, which itself can involve some paperwork.
It's a lot, man.
I'm not convinced that the Evolutionist produces too many calculations per round.
At a glance I will say it looks to be a more complicated class than others in Starfinder, but I will say that a lot of that makes it more interesting for me to play than an operative.
I like having more than one option on a turn and this class looks interesting to me because in part because it has a lot of minor things changing based upon how much EP I might have or might want to spend.
That isn't to say that I don't have a limit. One common memory in my local group is ability from one of the games we played where a character granted a damage bonus equal to 1/2 the number of enemies within 15 feet to themselves and allies within that same radius. That was too complicated for our group because of how that might change as enemies or allies moved. While that is an easy number to describe, it was a bit of a hindrance to our group as we played. I might change my mind via playtesting, but Evolutionist looks fun to play rather than arduous.
If you go up to 4 EP on this round and spend 2 EP what all calculations have you done since that round started.
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I don’t mind the drawbacks as that reminds me of the oracles curse. And I quite like it. Evolving gives you good stuff but comes at some penalty. I don’t really see how this is any different than the Oracle??? Am I missing something?
Oracle gets boons that offset the Curse.
Evolutionist does not.
No, it’s too bare bones.
It needs help all around, which just makes the Drawbacks stick out even more.
Curious what people think: Would this class be too strong without the drawbacks?
The class would have to be better than the Vanguard at tanking, better than the Solarian at damage, and more versatile than the Nanocyte.
It's none of those things.
If you go up to 4 EP on this round and spend 2 EP what all calculations have you done since that round started.
Based on that information, I have increased my speed at the start of the turn by +5 feet. During the turn that bonus went away.
That is about it for calculations. (Aside from what I spent my EP on).
Other abilities might be in play, but depend on other things going on.
The Oracles curse was static. Lame, you lose movement. Gain this benefit. At level 5, gain this and so on. The negative didn't fluctuate as you play.
With the Evolutionist, I have this bonus at the start of my turn, I do an ability so I loose that bonus and the penalty is also reduced... Next turn I gain this bonus again, my penalty has increased... Every turn your characters stats change, even happens multiple times in 1 turn... Oracles curse was persistent. The benefits were persistent.
The shield bonus is an action, it does 1 thing. Calibration last till you use it again or that target dies.
I feel a better approach to drawbacks would be either:
A. Take away a tactic in exchange for new ones. For example, a niche/talent might make you good at climbing and give you benefits for fighting while climbing or clung to a wall. But you might have a land speed penalty. Another niche might make you tough and good at rushing enemies, but you need a Will save to disengage from a fight.
B. Give a bonus/benefit and have the drawback take it away in exchange for another. For example, maybe your niche gives you a Will save bonus, but removes it when you have EP? Or maybe a niche gives you an ability that you cannot do while having EP and an ability that you can only do while having EP?
I also feel good thematic drawbacks should focus on fighting your transformation's feral instincts or making you feel "different" when you have no EP. Rather than just causing you to take more damage or heal less.
Curious what people think: Would this class be too strong without the drawbacks?
Without drawbacks it'd still be least capable martial class in the game, nowhere near too strong.
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Lets look at this:
Up till level 6, there are only 5 things:
A speed increase (+5, +10)
A weapon enhancement (turning on a crit effect, and a once a round damage bonus)
A +1 armor bonus.For the armor bonus and the weapon effects, that is no more complicated than a shield fighter or a weapon mechanic. (Did you calibrate your weapon? Are you using overload? Did you position your shield?)
As far as speed changes, again, not really different than a character with jump jets (with the advantage that evolutionists don't have to track rounds of power consumption.)
This isn't like a 1E barbarian, where raging changes your str and con, and then you have to figure out all the stats that changes.
As for the drawbacks, there really isn't any "calculating" that needs to be done? It is just "do you have EP?" "do you have 3+ ep?"
Those are 5 more things than I would like to track on my turn, especially since they don't relate to the actual actions I'm taking. It's easy to remember that I used my move action to raise my shield, but calculating that I lost an AC because I spent 2 EP to give myself full BAB and Reach? That's not intuitive.
Why would you bother calculating it if you are not going to use it?
"Okay I am going to move, I want to go more than my 30 foot base speed. Do I have enough EP? Yup? Good."
"That shot hit my AC exactly. Do I have 4+ EP? Yup. You miss."
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Not particularly optimizing any of this.
Melee: (Str 20)
Lvl 11 Solarion: 5d6 + 5 + 11 + 2 (Cost 24,900) (Ave 35.5)
Lvl 11 Soldier: 4d8 + 5 + 11 + (?5?) (Cost 26,300) (Ave 39)
Lvl 11 Adaptive Weapon: 2d10 + 5+ 16 (Cost 0) (Ave 31)
Sepulchral with 5 EP
Lvl 11 Adaptive Weapon: 2d10 + 5 + 26 (Cost 0) (Ave 42)
So the question is how much combat advantage can you add at level 11 with 25K?
(Keep in mind that with Versatile Strike you can save on backup weapons by just switching your damage types.)
(Not asserting this is totally accurate, more an invitation for other people more familiar with Solarian or soldier to comment and improve the comparison.)
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I don't dislike the balancing between the benefits and the penalties but I do think not all penalties are balanced amongst each other. The Eldritch Drawback seems a tad over the edge while the Vital one might never even come into play for a lot of fights.
I think I'd like the penalties to be much on the lines of the Vital Drawback, where it could potentially be a problem but most of the time it's not
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I don't dislike the balancing between the benefits and the penalties but I do think not all penalties are balanced amongst each other. The Eldritch Drawback seems a tad over the edge while the Vital one might never even come into play for a lot of fights.
I think I'd like the penalties to be much on the lines of the Vital Drawback, where it could potentially be a problem but most of the time it's not
Yeah, I am not sold on the Eldrich Niche at all.
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Not particularly optimizing any of this.
Melee: (Str 20)
Lvl 11 Solarion: 5d6 + 5 + 11 + 2 (Cost 24,900) (Ave 35.5)
Lvl 11 Soldier: 4d8 + 5 + 11 + (?5?) (Cost 26,300) (Ave 39)
Lvl 11 Adaptive Weapon: 2d10 + 5+ 16 (Cost 0) (Ave 31)
Sepulchral with 5 EP
Lvl 11 Adaptive Weapon: 2d10 + 5 + 26 (Cost 0) (Ave 42)So the question is how much combat advantage can you add at level 11 with 25K?
(Keep in mind that with Versatile Strike you can save on backup weapons by just switching your damage types.)
(Not asserting this is totally accurate, more an invitation for other people more familiar with Solarian or soldier to comment and improve the comparison.)
For no cash investment that is pretty good. A solarian can get a soulfire infusion for pretty cheap, adding CHA mod to damage. Plasma sheathe would also add an extra 5 damage but it's all fire. With those things you get an average of 44.5 damage(assuming 18 charisma). Higher than the Evolunist but with a lot of caveats.
I don't think there's anything the Evo can get that would offset this difference but it has nothing to envy the solarian
I don't think there's anything the Evo can get that would offset this difference but it has nothing to envy the solarian
Other than the fact that solarion is full BAB by default, but the Evo has to pay class resources to equal the accuracy?
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For no cash investment that is pretty good. A solarian can get a soulfire infusion for pretty cheap, adding CHA mod to damage. Plasma sheathe would also add an extra 5 damage but it's all fire. With those things you get an average of 44.5 damage(assuming 18 charisma). Higher than the Evolunist but with a lot of caveats.
I don't think there's anything the Evo can get that would offset this difference but it has nothing to envy the solarian
That is putting the Solarian at 20 Str, 18 Con, leaving little else for other stats, but point taken.
If you go up to 4 EP on this round and spend 2 EP what all calculations have you done since that round started.Based on that information, I have increased my speed at the start of the turn by +5 feet. During the turn that bonus went away.
That is about it for calculations. (Aside from what I spent my EP on).
Other abilities might be in play, but depend on other things going on.
Yeah you might want to look that over again, thank you for proving my point.
I don't dislike the balancing between the benefits and the penalties but I do think not all penalties are balanced amongst each other. The Eldritch Drawback seems a tad over the edge while the Vital one might never even come into play for a lot of fights.
I think I'd like the penalties to be much on the lines of the Vital Drawback, where it could potentially be a problem but most of the time it's not
Yeah cause PCs never have to make Will saves.
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For no cash investment that is pretty good. A solarian can get a soulfire infusion for pretty cheap, adding CHA mod to damage. Plasma sheathe would also add an extra 5 damage but it's all fire. With those things you get an average of 44.5 damage(assuming 18 charisma). Higher than the Evolunist but with a lot of caveats.
I don't think there's anything the Evo can get that would offset this difference but it has nothing to envy the solarianThat is putting the Solarian at 20 Str, 18 Con, leaving little else for other stats, but point taken.
Solarians can and do absolutely get away with laser focusing on STR and CHA to the detriment of all other stats. You might think it's not great strategy since it does mean your defenses are very low but the bounded math in the game never lets them drop too fat behind and the ability to anhilate enemies in 2 swings does keep you safe /end of my solarian tedtalk :P
(also I think you meant charisma, not constitution but I got your point)
I don't like that Evo's don't get full BAB but it's far from the worst thing ever, weapon focus can really pick up the slack even if you're targetting KAC
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How long do people's fights usually last? Mine tend to be around 5 rounds. Are there even enough rounds in a fight to be able to use any of this stuff? You need EP for basic melee competence, so I don't really see building up EP being a good option.
Round 1: Gain 1EP, Move+5, spend EP to have full BAB, attack
Round 2: Gain 1EP, Spend EP to have full BAB, full attack (That enemy dies)
Round 3: Gain 1EP Move+5, Move+5 (retain 1 EP)
Round 4: Gain 1EP, Spend 1 EP to have full BAB, full attack (retain 1 EP)
Round 5: Gain 1EP, Spend 1 EP to have full BAB, attack (enemy dies)
Few of the Maintaining EP abilities are really worth anything, actually.
* Movement speed is okay, but often irrelevant in the small rooms and corridors I've fought in.
* Critical hit effects are functionally useless
* +10 movement speed starts to matter, but that's halfway into a combat where it's less important as the battle has already taken shape
* +1 AC at 4 EP is not too bad, but weighed against the opportunity cost of not having full BAB for 4 rounds...
* +1/2 level to damage once per round is pretty good, and I would start to consider dragging combat out by having everyone take cover for the first 5 rounds just to get this up and running.
* +1 to saving throws is nice, but not on a "comes and goes" ability. Guarantee the moment you could actually use it, it won't be up.
* More speed, starts to be overkill.
* +2 AC at 8 EP is basically unattainable.
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At low level, Full baby is just +1 to hit. How many attacks have you made that only exactly hit the opponents AC?
Plenty.
Also it’s psychological. A frontliner with non-Full BaB just doesn’t feel good. Especially when I could just play a Solarion which has Full BaB and is fun…
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At low level, Full baby is just +1 to hit. How many attacks have you made that only exactly hit the opponents AC?
Lots and lots and lots. It's why Weapon Focus is a must-pick for me if I plan on using weapons.
The math is tight enough in Starfinder that failing to grab every one of the few +'s available is always felt pretty deeply.
Yeah you might want to look that over again, thank you for proving my point.If you go up to 4 EP on this round and spend 2 EP what all calculations have you done since that round started.Based on that information, I have increased my speed at the start of the turn by +5 feet. During the turn that bonus went away.
That is about it for calculations. (Aside from what I spent my EP on).
Other abilities might be in play, but depend on other things going on.
Your point seems to be provides as little information in your query as possible, then provide a similar amount of information as you declare you own success. I don't see anything that changes my position that "evolutionist at a glance does not seem too complex before I playtest it."
If the question was "an envoy has spend a RP this round. How many calculations have you done since the round started?" I would have a similar limited answer? Do I have to assume get 'em was used and I need to count each potential attack in the party member as an additional calculation for that attack bonus? Are they also doing an quick inspiring boost? I have no idea what this envoy is doing to give a great answer and would be only able to give a bare bones answer like they one I just gave you.
It the same for your evolutionist. I thought about including a recalculation for BAB, even ignoring the fact that I can't say it is being used in your example, but when I play these sorts of characters that have a varying attack bonus (like 1e investigator or barbarian, or a SF exo-cortex mechanic) I write out separate attack lines for my targeted bonus and my non-targeted bonus. It isn't something I would be recalculating every turn.
I discounted the AC bonus entirely because I made an assumption that the character was spending EP on their turn and wasn't triggering an AoO or readied attack. If I'm not getting attacked, that AC bonus isn't something I need to deal with at all, even if it is trivial.
You might be referring to a number of instincts, drawbacks, adaptations or niche abilities. I have no idea which one you might be referring to. Some could present more complexity in a given round, while others might have no effect. There just isn't enough information for me to give it more than the reasonable fair thought had already given it.
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The EP economy is much more interesting when you can gain EP on successful attacks. I wish it came baked into the class from the start.
It's a really cool idea of stealing genetic material from enemies to mutate yourself.
Your point seems to be provides as little information in your query as possible,Yeah you might want to look that over again, thank you for proving my point.If you go up to 4 EP on this round and spend 2 EP what all calculations have you done since that round started.Based on that information, I have increased my speed at the start of the turn by +5 feet. During the turn that bonus went away.
That is about it for calculations. (Aside from what I spent my EP on).
Other abilities might be in play, but depend on other things going on.
Even being succinct it was still explicit.
"If you go up to 4 EP on this round and spend 2 EP what all calculations have you done since that round started."
You picked only a single thing that changed then ignored everything else, proving my point that most people will ignore it (especially the negatives) or forget it.