Greetings everyone,
I‘m new to this edition, and I would like to play a low WIS, high CHA, rapier toting, Vanilla (i.e. CRB only) Cayden Cleric. Is that even practical?
Thanks in advance for your insight!
I would suggest going through this guide. Explains some options for warpriest, including a high cha warpriest that uses channel smite.
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It is not practical.
As well as being behind on attack (as shown in HumbleGamer's quote), the martial classes have bonuses to damage and better Weapon Specialization.
Those spell slots take a big toll and in PF2 buffs cannot catch you back up to the dedicated melee PCs. Ever.
But this is a game, so the real measure of the efficacy of this PC is what kind of party and campaign will they play in. You could load up on all Heal spells and any sizable party will love you tons, while a smaller party might require more offense from you. You could be playing hard mode (like several of the published adventures are) and struggle to do much with your rapier, or casual mode where second-tier attacks do fine.
I think what matters is setting you expectations. Warpriests occupy a funny spot, though I'd put them on the side of caster as in when it comes to tougher battles, you'll be casting and dare not enter melee. With a low Wis you'd primarily target your allies, and that's fine if you have enough allies.
But if you want stabbing with your rapier to be your primary tactic, you'll have to swap to a martial class (likely Fighter (offense) or Champion (defense) since you're new, or Swashbuckler (skirmish/trickery) if you have plenty of 3.X/PF1 experience). From there you can pick up a Cleric Dedication (or perhaps Blessed) to show your connection to your god.
If I were you I'd go swashbuckler with a champion dedication.
If I were you I'd go swashbuckler with a champion dedication.
That is not CRB only...
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While I agree that Str-Based warpriest with channel smite is the most effective way to do this, I'd still suggest a different route as an alternative. A build with some more rogue-ish finesse.
Half-Elf Cloistered Cleric of Cayden Cailean.
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 16. Increases go to Dex, Con, Wis and Cha.
You can also use voluntary flaws to get to 14 Con by dropping Int and Wis if you want, but I don't think it's necessary.
2: Rogue Dedication
4: Channel Smite
6: Sneak Attacker
8: Emblazon Armament
10: Emblazon Energy
12: Replenishment of War
At level 1, get a good attack cantrip (i.e. Electric Arc) as innate cantrip via Otherworldly Magic. Since it's innate, it'll scale with your charisma but still use your Divine Spell proficiency.
Use your high Charisma to make ample use of Demoralize and Feint. Your AC will be half-decent in light armor until level 12. It will drop a bit at levels 13 and 14, so maybe make use of a shield for those levels. By level 15, you'll have max AC without any armor.
Your damage relies on Sneak Attack, Emblazon Enery and Channel Smite. This is meant as an occasional surgical striker, not an all-time front liner.
See if your GM will allow you to swap Wisdom out as your primary stat bump at creation. The Strength based warpriest in the game I'm running has been doing very well up to level 9 with the change to allow strength as his primary attribute boost.
Getting True Strike and using channel smite worked great for the cleric in my party.
If I were you I'd go swashbuckler with a champion dedication.That is not CRB only...
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I think with Archives of Nethys being a thing its actually harder to figure out what is CRB or not than to just look at the options.
The problem with Cayden Warpriest & Channel Smite, is that Cayden font is Heal only. You can memorize Harm in your spell slots, but you will have less of them, and that will restrict your usage of highest lv spell slots.
You can make it work to an extent, but then I would ask, what are you looking from the character that cannot be done with a Champion of Cayden?
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The "missing" True Strike can be solved by level 5 with the adapted Adept feat. I was actually going to suggest that in my build but somehow forgot about it while typing.
Get adapted cantrip at level 3 via ancestral paragon and then adapted Adept at 5 and you're set. Leaves you with only a single level (4) at which you have channel smite but no True Strike.
Greetings everyone,
I‘m new to this edition, and I would like to play a low WIS, high CHA, rapier toting, Vanilla (i.e. CRB only) Cayden Cleric. Is that even practical?
Thanks in advance for your insight!
Well there is some cool stuff that you can do as a swashbuckler so I don't really understand why you are restricted to Vanilla except maybe mental effort of looking at it all. But really its is all very well balanced, just sample for what you need and play all the released material.
Back to your question.
If you are prepared to drop your wisdom, and you want to be dex rapier based then I would recommend start as a cloistered cleric still and multiclassing into rogue.
This gives you light armour which is perfect for your dex. Plus there are some interesting feats you can take to pick up a bit more combat potential.
Pick up a Weapon Proficency via an Ancestry feat or a general feat, so you can wield a Rapier.
Basic Trickery => Mobility to get into and out of combat
Sneak Attack will give you extra 1d6 versus flat footed opponents.
Advanced Trickery => Dread Striker to have sneak attack damage verses Intimidated Foes
Advanced Trickery => Opportune Backstab for some extra attacks (level 16 though)
Boost your Charisma and look at the Intimidation Feats.
You don't actually have to drop your Wisdom to do this because you can only start with 16 Dex anyway.
Yes it is a very practical build.
As a bonus take a multiclass to Sorcerer for first level spells, plus a ring of Wizardry for a good supply of True Strike spells
Depends what you want out of the Cleric class.
First of all: Thanks, everybody!
I want to apologise for not disclosing my initial considerations myself, as I had been looking for an unbiased discussion. And many of you have mirrored my thoughts.
So, here they are:
Basics
Why Vanilla? GM fiat for the initial group.
Why Low WIS, high CHA? To emulate the chosen deity; he just seems to be that kind of guy.
Why Rapier? See above, it's Cayden's favourite, after all.
Cloistered vs. Warpriest
Cloistered grants better Spell Attack and DC, Warpriest grants better and earlier Weapon and Armour Proficiency and Fortitude.
Do I intend to rely on offensive magic? Not with WIS 12.
Do I want progressive Armour Proficiency? I definitely do.
Do I want earlier Weapon progression? Now, it would be nice, would it not.
Do I need Martial Weapon Proficiency? Not Really.
Am I afraid of Toxins and Germs and Negativity? A tiny bit.
Looks like Warpriest.
Rapier or STR vs. DEX
Why does it have to be such a useless (for Clerics) weapon? Divine Inscrutability, I guess.
The one redeeming Trait Finesse leads to this question, in the first place.
What is more important
Acrobatics (Balance, Tumble) or Athletics (Jump, Climb, etc.): Athletics I suppose.
Damage or Mobility: Personally, I prefer Light Armour.
Combat Manoeuvres or REF:
Disarm is not worth the effort or is it. I’d rather Demoralise eleven times out of ten.
Trip (in PF1 by far the best manoeuvre, so exploitable with a whip-lashing archaeologist; don’t get me started) still seems strong despite the lack of AoOs.
Shove, Grapple are niche products to me, not quite useless for dedicated frontliners.
REF is the Warpriest’s Achilles’ Heel.
The question remained: 16 / 12 / 12 / 12 / 10 / 16 or 12 / 16 / 12 / 12 / 10 / 16
And yes, Gortle, I think DEX would, definitely, lead to Rogue Dedication.
With Background Barkeep (what else?) the Skills would be: Acrobatics, Athletics, Deception, Diplomacy, Religion.
But that was yesterday.
As the rapier is more a sidearm than a weapon of war and the Warpriest is getting Martial Weapon Proficiency eventually: Enter the Guisarme.
Reach and Trip? What else do I need.
STR would win over DEX.
But now, do I wait for lvl 3 to get it or spend my precious Heritage on it? I do fancy the darkvisioned Half-Elf a lot.
The rapier would stay as backup and dress weapon, of course.
Is that an improvement, do you think? Does it increase feasibility?
EDIT: Ah, I forgot, there's not going to be Martial Expertise. "Back to the beginning", Vizzini said.
You'll never go beyond Trained in the Guisarme. You really don't want to use a non-deity weapon on a Cleric, especially not if you're limited to CRB.
Looking at your considerations, go with the 16 Str, 12 Dex build and Warpriest.
You'll never go beyond Trained in the Guisarme. You really don't want to use a non-deity weapon on a Cleric, especially not if you're limited to CRB.
Looking at your considerations, go with the 16 Str, 12 Dex build and Warpriest.
You ninjaed my edit. How rude!
But, I suppose you're right. Rude but right.
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How much cleric stuff are you looking to do?
To be honest I would suggest you consider going Rogue (either Thief or Scoundrel racket) and then take the multiclass cleric dedication.
You're still a priest of Cayden, but now you're more combat viable.
Rather than try to turn cleric into a combat class (even the warpriest version doesn't actually do this) you start with a combat class and lean into cleric things via the dedication.
Rather than try to turn cleric into a combat class (even the warpriest version doesn't actually do this) you start with a combat class and lean into cleric things via the dedication.
I actually found that a Warpriest can be a good combat class, of their deity provide at least some of:
-a good weapon-True Strike
-Harm font
Ragathiel & Gorum are prime example.
But Cayden just doesn't bring anything for that build, and forces to many of the ressources to try to make it work IMO
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If I were you I'd definitely go with champion with that set of prerequisites...
Start with 14 Str, 18 dex 14 cha 14 con (or somesuch, don't feel like doing the math)
Wear a leather armor or chain shirt, go liberator cause, have liberating step which is very good (allows you to protect allies agaisnt chains of attacks and mitigates damage from the first, plus has that YOINK, I AM YOUR FOE VILLAIN!) thing from caelian.
Champion also doesn't have any real good early champion feats, so you can dump a class feat or two in either cleric dedication and basic spellcasting (which is amazing cause champions eventually get master in divine spellcasting).
Alternatively you can go duelist archetype and challenge people to a duel with your rapier.
You can make your rapier your divine bond and have it infused with caydan's might. You could also get a "main gauche" with the party trait instead of a shield for that third action.
Use that high charisma to get the intimidate skill feat chain.
Overall this isn't optimal because vs full plate you lose 1 ac and as a champion going 18 Str would make you deal more damage vs going 18 dex which doesn't really help you that much.
But it fits your flavor a lot, and it's definitely less suboptimal than warpriest with low wis.
Pardon my not quoting you in this post; it just makes one‘s backside ache, typing on this mobile device.
Group‘s healer: I presume one would expect our humble selves to do the chore, as the extraordinarily attractive Cleric we are.
Cleric Dedication: See above, no free Heal for being pretty.
Champion: He would probably wield a guisarme, rapier for the gilded guard. But he would be located in the Trench, not the M.A.S.H.
Low WIS Warpriest: What‘s so bad about him? Are there not enough useful buffs and utilities? Are Neutralise and Remove that essential?
Parry Weapon or Buckler: I don‘t see the necessity, as long as there is the Shield Cantrip.
Gotta go! So long, and thanks for all the help so far!
Pardon my not quoting you in this post; it just makes one‘s backside ache, typing on this mobile device.
Group‘s healer: I presume one would expect our humble selves to do the chore, as the extraordinarily attractive Cleric we are.
Cleric Dedication: See above, no free Heal for being pretty.
Champion: He would probably wield a guisarme, rapier for the gilded guard. But he would be located in the Trench, not the M.A.S.H.
Low WIS Warpriest: What‘s so bad about him? Are there not enough useful buffs and utilities? Are Neutralise and Remove that essential?
Parry Weapon or Buckler: I don‘t see the necessity, as long as there is the Shield Cantrip.
Gotta go! So long, and thanks for all the help so far!
Group healer: lay on hands works just as well, knowing a few heal spells and healing potions helps too. Most of the out of combat healing is done via the medicine skill not healing spells, and most healing happens outside of combat. Out of 4 campaigns I've Dm'ed only one had a cleric, and they did fine as long as someone specced into the medicine skill.
Cleric dedication: it does give you the spells you want though, like heal, heroism, shield cantrip and such
Champion: hey that works too!!
Low wis warpriest: it's not that it doesn't work... Per say... It's that your DC's are low so you can't offensively cast, limiting you to around a half of the divine spell list only, which isn't stellar to begin with...
And then on top of that you lose out on the proficiencies that make you actually able to fight, even if you go warpriest. You don't get master armor, you don't get master weapons, you barely get weapon specialisation (a whole 6 levels later). Champion gets master weapons, legendary armor, greater weapon spec, and some damage gimmick feats and with cleric dedication CAN take channel smite (although as pointed out above caydan being healing font only means that's a limited option for base cleric as well). If hitting s&&~ is your game, cleric is probly not best.
Shield cantrip: shield cantrip can be used to block damage once per ten minutes, so believe me it doesn't hold a candle to a real shield!!
But as a means to get +1 AC it is on par to a parry weapon.
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The takeaway in my opinion is that a cleric (even warpriest) is just passable at best as a melee combatant. But choosing Cayden as your deity prevents you from selecting options to make it viable.
If you want to be a successful martial character you're going to need to start with another class as your base.
Cleric's don't need to only be a band-aid, and medicine is just as effective at being a band-aid outside of combat as a cleric is.
I will honestly disagree with most people here.
But have to set expectations, you are not going to do the same damage as pure martial classes, but you have 3 spells per spell lvl and a divine font
First I would go Warpriest, low Wis makes any point of using Cloistered go away.
Cayden gives Athletics as a skill, use it and raise it, trips and grapples are very good and the skill raises in a great speed, and make you a good frontline controller.
And while Strike + Strike when you want a more martial turn might not be great for you but Strike + Trip (in that order) is good. Maybe even pick the might domain for Athletic Rush to make you even better at that.
Go with Bless or Magic Weapons at the start as spells and continue to go after spells like Heroism, Vital Beacon and whirling scarves.
Combat Maneuvers, huge healing, support divine spells and maybe even debuffing with the higher charisma with Intimidation or Diplomacy? I would say that any party would like that.
I will honestly disagree with most people here.
But have to set expectations, you are not going to do the same damage as pure martial classes, but you have 3 spells per spell lvl and a divine font
First I would go Warpriest, low Wis makes any point of using Cloistered go away.
Cayden gives Athletics as a skill, use it and raise it, trips and grapples are very good and the skill raises in a great speed, and make you a good frontline controller.
And while Strike + Strike when you want a more martial turn might not be great for you but Strike + Trip (in that order) is good. Maybe even pick the might domain for Athletic Rush to make you even better at that.
Go with Bless or Magic Weapons at the start as spells and continue to go after spells like Heroism, Vital Beacon and whirling scarves.
Combat Maneuvers, huge healing, support divine spells and maybe even debuffing with the higher charisma with Intimidation or Diplomacy? I would say that any party would like that.
You're not wrong, that IS viable !
The takeaway in my opinion is that a cleric (even warpriest) is just passable at best as a melee combatant. But choosing Cayden as your deity prevents you from selecting options to make it viable.
If you want to be a successful martial character you're going to need to start with another class as your base.
Cleric's don't need to only be a band-aid, and medicine is just as effective at being a band-aid outside of combat as a cleric is.
In terms of being optimised yes.
Having low wisdom stops half of the good spells in the Divine list from being relevant. It is workable but its boring just buffing and healing. Clerics are close to as effective as wizards as offensive casters - not taking Heal is a set back but it is a viable caster without it.
If you are going to melee all the time. You are mechanicaly better off being a Champion - you still get to heal a bit. OR Any martial character and focus on cleric spellcasting as a mulitclass.
Warpriest or low wisdom Cloistered is a wierd half way point that leaves you good at nothing, you will get smashed constantly in combat and just feel bad.
But these boards are heavy on mechanical optimisation. If your group is role play heavy and light on tough combats, then just have fun and go for it. Fun is actually more important.
The takeaway in my opinion is that a cleric (even warpriest) is just passable at best as a melee combatant. But choosing Cayden as your deity prevents you from selecting options to make it viable.
If you want to be a successful martial character you're going to need to start with another class as your base.
Cleric's don't need to only be a band-aid, and medicine is just as effective at being a band-aid outside of combat as a cleric is.
In terms of being optimised yes.
Having low wisdom stops half of the good spells in the Divine list from being relevant. It is workable but its boring just buffing and healing. Clerics are close to as effective as wizards as offensive casters - not taking Heal is a set back but it is a viable caster without it.
If you are going to melee all the time. You are mechanicaly better off being a Champion - you still get to heal a bit. OR Any martial character and focus on cleric spellcasting as a mulitclass.
Warpriest or low wisdom Cloistered is a wierd half way point that leaves you good at nothing, you will get smashed constantly in combat and just feel bad.
But these boards are heavy on mechanical optimisation. If your group is role play heavy and light on tough combats, then just have fun and go for it. Fun is actually more important.
I guess I should clarify that may statements are in the context of making a combatant who will have at significant focus on melee/martial combat. And warpriest clerics with the right choices can be viable (though don't keep up with martial characters). But Cayden as a deity prevents those choices.
You can make a viable cleric of Cayden focused on just buffing and healing it simply didn't seem to be what the OP was asking for.
As to your comment about "having fun" I agree it's the most important thing. However my experience with PF2 was that unless your GM is consistently giving you CR-2 fights with CR (or CR+1) fights as bosses you're going to feel a lot of pain you offensive options don't work if you're not optimized.
I honestly feel PF2 is far worse (compared to PF1) in terms of requiring you to be optimized because the math is tight and because there aren't a myriad of options to make up for losing a +1 here or there (like there are in PF1).