The highest martial damage dealer past level 16:
Fighter + Alchemist Dedication + Feral Mutagen + Monk Dedication + Flurry of Blows.
40% more damage than a Greatsword Giant Barbarian, just unbeatable.
And as you deal most of your damage in one action, it's also an extremely flexible build. Hands down the most efficient martial damage dealer in the game.
Only because you are talking about 2 attacks in a one action activity. Its more complex when you consider the whole turn.
You can built the flurry combo in to the Dinosaur build as well, if you want.
Anyway, talking about a lvl 16 character, I say that a barbarian with reckless abandon is way better.You'd be surprised. The damage should be the same between both builds (I'll check when I get access to Citricking's tool), but Reckless Abandon has a steep cost.Kinda weird given the extra damage from the barbarian rage.
Weapons would obviously be pick and light pick, on a double slice attack.
Completely compensated by your small dice. My Fighter actually does more damage per hit than your Barbarian. You just deal more damage on criticals, but not incredibly more as my Fighter as Deadly d10 attacks.
The highest martial damage dealer past level 16:
Fighter + Alchemist Dedication + Feral Mutagen + Monk Dedication + Flurry of Blows.
40% more damage than a Greatsword Giant Barbarian, just unbeatable.
And as you deal most of your damage in one action, it's also an extremely flexible build. Hands down the most efficient martial damage dealer in the game.Only because you are talking about 2 attacks in a one action activity. Its more complex when you consider the whole turn.
You can built the flurry combo in to the Dinosaur build as well, if you want.
It's 25% with 3 actions. With one action it's 50%. 40% is an average.
Light Pick is an Agile weapon, so half rage damage. You have +6 damage from critical spe, not +8.
You forgot Flurry of Blows.
I'll make the simulation on Citricking's tool when I'll get back to my computer.
The highest martial damage dealer past level 16:
Fighter + Alchemist Dedication + Feral Mutagen + Monk Dedication + Flurry of Blows.
40% more damage than a Greatsword Giant Barbarian, just unbeatable.
And as you deal most of your damage in one action, it's also an extremely flexible build. Hands down the most efficient martial damage dealer in the game.You mean Bestial Mutagen? Or is there a Feral Mutagen too?
Fighters in general already do the highest damage in most circumstances because of the to hit bonus. Barbarians get the biggest crits and per hit damage. But not much beats that +2 additional to hit. It's very powerful.
You don't get as many perks as other classes as a fighter. You pretty much hit things real well. But if that's what you want to do, no one does it better.
Feral mutagen is a lvl 8 alchemist feat.
Your bestial mutagen brings out the beast lurking within you, granting you especially sharp claws and teeth as well as a ferocious appearance. Whenever you’re affected by a bestial mutagen, you gain the mutagen’s item bonus to your Intimidation checks. In addition, your claws and jaws are increasingly vicious, and they gain the deadly d10 trait. Finally, you can increase the mutagen’s penalty to AC from –1 to –2 and, in exchange, increase the damage die size of your claws and jaws by one step.Anyway, talking about a lvl 16 character, I say that a barbarian with reckless abandon is way better.
It takes the same Armor penalty and has to rely on half its hp, but given the tradeoff in terms of damage he's going to be perfectly fine.
A feat. Not much experience with the Alchemist.
It's 25% with 3 actions. With one action it's 50%. 40% is an average.The highest martial damage dealer past level 16:
Fighter + Alchemist Dedication + Feral Mutagen + Monk Dedication + Flurry of Blows.
40% more damage than a Greatsword Giant Barbarian, just unbeatable.
And as you deal most of your damage in one action, it's also an extremely flexible build. Hands down the most efficient martial damage dealer in the game.Only because you are talking about 2 attacks in a one action activity. Its more complex when you consider the whole turn.
You can built the flurry combo in to the Dinosaur build as well, if you want.
There is a whole stack of impenetrable assumptions in there that I can't talk to. So you are talking about damage in one strike, one action, one activity, one round or one turn? Single target only, or is a group considered? Are we considering reasonable assitance from a party, as some builds just don't work in a vacuum and we don't play individual characters but as a team. However no two GMs or groups are the same.
Which is of course why some people say this is a pointless exercise. Its not - because I am interested in multiple highly effective builds. Which PF2 does deliver.
The most optimal is a more theoretical issue. However if we are talking about the best then there are some elements here.
a) Fighter has the highest hit chance
b) Giant Barbarian has the highest static damage add to a strike
c) Bestial Mutagen with Feral Mutagen gives you the highest item bonus +4 to attack with unarmed and 1d8 agile deadly d10/ 1d10 deadly d10 strikes.
d) Any martial mulitclassed into a wild shape Druid will get an inherit +2 status bonus to hit and insane reach.
what else...
Even considering the flurry of blows, and the halven rage damage on the agile weapon ( Thanks for pointing out that. I thought it was for finesse weapons ), the damage per hit would be still lower compared to the barbarian.
Not to say the chance on hit: -0/-0/-8 vs -0/-3/-6/-6.
I also forgot resistances and vulnerabilties.
While double slice works as flurry of blows for what concerns resistances, weapons can be made of rare material which would trigger extra damage ( silver/cold iron or if you are lucky enough sovereign steel ).
And the result is:
Very close but the Fighter wins as soon as Major Striking kicks in.As I told you, it's the highest martial single target damage dealer at high level. Not that I can know, but its damage is so massive that I hardly see how you can beat it. Even when resorting to very questionable options like Reckless Abandon, it still stays on top.
And then you can consider that most of its damage is done in one action and that it has a free hand, making it a very flexible build on top of dealing outrageous damage.
There is a whole stack of impenetrable assumptions in there that I can't talk to. So you are talking about damage in one strike, one action, one activity, one round or one turn? Single target only, or is a group considered? Are we considering reasonable assitance from a party, as some builds just don't work in a vacuum and we don't play individual characters but as a team. However no two GMs or groups are the same.
Single target damage in 1, 2 or 3 actions. The assistance of the party is hard to consider as there can be so many type of help given, but outside crazy specialized help, I don't think it impacts this build much.
Which is of course why some people say this is a pointless exercise. Its not - because I am interested in multiple highly effective builds. Which PF2 does deliver.
Even if I agree that there's nothing like "optimized in a vacuum" and that you can only be optimized for something, there are still builds that can be considered weak or strong.
I don't really understand the graphic superbidi.
I don't see Whether it uses double slice for the barbarian or not.
I used Citriking's tool. Just check if you think I've made a mistake.
First and second attacks are at 0, it's visible on the description of the Barbarian attacks (there's no -3a like for my Fighter second attack).But it's always better to have a double -0 rather than double -6 ( considering the extra attack), though it might be better to have more attacks against a +0 enemy, but that would be a thrash one, which would probably suffer a double critical from the double slice. On a boss the -0/-0 would be the best deal a character could have.
We are speaking of -6 attacks for a Fighter, so -4 attacks for other martials. I don't think you can call that a "thrash" attack.
I've used an on level enemy to make the comparison.One third more attacks just compensate the damage and to hit advantage of your Barbarian.
Finally, remember that you are comparing a full archetyped characters vs one with a single feat ( reckless abandon).
Reckless Abandon is a very questionable feat giving you a massive +2 to attack at the cost of -2 to AC (so -4 with Rage) and half hit points. I won't enter any kind of nitpicking against your build, as it is highly hypothetical (as your Barbarian will spend most of his rounds sleeping on the floor considering how weak it is). My build is a completely usable one and it outdamages yours in the conditions that you have chosen. I think I've made my point.
Here's a link to citricking's tool. I can't provide you with either calculations or a direct link, but I think this tool is very accurate. Just play with it, you'll see it works fine.
It's just -2 compared to the fighter you propose eh ( using a full plate as a fighter would be easy ).
It's not the -2 the issue, it's the half hit points. And when on top of that you have a ridiculously low AC, you have a round of life expectancy. No one cares of your Reach when you're dying on the floor.
If you come up with a build with the same damage output but without such obvious defensive flaws, I'll be happy to consider your Barbarian's reach. But right now, your build is only hypothetical in my opinion.
I don't really understand the graphic superbidi.
I don't see Whether it uses double slice for the barbarian or not.
I used Citriking's tool. Just check if you think I've made a mistake.
First and second attacks are at 0, it's visible on the description of the Barbarian attacks (there's no -3a like for my Fighter second attack).But it's always better to have a double -0 rather than double -6 ( considering the extra attack), though it might be better to have more attacks against a +0 enemy, but that would be a thrash one, which would probably suffer a double critical from the double slice. On a boss the -0/-0 would be the best deal a character could have.
We are speaking of -6 attacks for a Fighter, so -4 attacks for other martials. I don't think you can call that a "thrash" attack.
I've used an on level enemy to make the comparison.
One third more attacks just compensate the damage and to hit advantage of your Barbarian.Reckless Abandon is a very questionable feat giving you a massive +2 to attack at the cost of -2 to AC (so -4 with Rage) and half hit points. I won't enter any kind of nitpicking against your build, as it is highly hypothetical (as your Barbarian will spend most of his rounds sleeping on the floor considering how weak it is). My build is a completely usable one and it outdamages yours in the conditions that you have chosen. I think I've made my point.Finally, remember that you are comparing a full archetyped characters vs one with a single feat ( reckless abandon).
I would rather see you run a series of combats recording damage than use a tool. I have not found these damage estimating tools to work very well at all. There are too many variables to account for in how battles set up.
The fighter is already the highest single target damage dealer in the game even not using the tool. I have recorded tons of fights in real circumstances and the fighter wins the vast majority of the time just by virtue of his +2 to hit. That +2 to hit is absolutely huge in gameplay under almost any circumstances if built even moderately well to do damage.
It's not -2 AC from the Fighter, it's -4 AC or -5 AC if that fighter has plate. Reckless Abandon is an untyped penalty so it stacks with both Clumsy and Rage. Your Barbarian is going to get hit and crit 10% more than usual, 20% more than anyone else in light or medium armor.
I tried Reckless Abandon. It's too much pressure on the healer, especially against groups. It's too costly for what it gives. I got rid of it quickly. The disadvantage far outweighs the advantage. Don't much care for abilities designed like this, but it is what it is: an unusable feat unless you want to take a lot of dirt naps.
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Checkers the Goblin Gymnast
This is a control Swashbuckler build I have been working on that is not really designed to do a lot of damage, but rather get to critical successes on grapple checks and restrain enemies denying them a useful round. Its a Gymast Swashbuckler which is not really considered a power option. The main way it gets panache is via Tumble Through. For which Bouncy Goblin give it a +2 circumstance bonus. It will not always use finisher at the end of a turn, but do a normal attack instead. Hopefully starting its turn with panache, using then regaining it.
Damage on a noraml strike with panache is modest. Damage on a finisher at level 20, rolling twice to attack via Perfect Finisher and critically on a 19 via Keen Flair, with a rapier is (4d6 major striking +5 Str + 6d6 finisher + 3d6 from damage runes) doubled +4d8 Deadly Grace for an average 129. Which is OK.
Then it can Disarm or Trip vs Reflex, Grapple or Shove vs Fortitude, rolling twice on each attempt with Derring Do. This helps with the fact that it is using Strength a secondary ability score for Athletics. Its athletics skill modifier will be down 1 for level 1-4, 10-14, 17+ because of this. However. It also gets a +1 circumstance bonus as well to these checks so your aren't going to notice much.
Because it can do Leading Dance with Acrobatics via Acrobatic Performer, it can also target an enemies Will defense to move it out of position. Note that there is no panache for this, but you can also keep doing it to drag an enemy to exactly where you want him. I'm sure its hilarious when you get an item that lets you fly.
Identifying your opponents weaker defense is going to be important to this build. It will work much better if there is someone with Recall Knowledge in the party.
There is space in the build for another 2 legendary skills, so Stealth and Medicine, why not. What the build really wants is another 3 slots for tenth level feats :)
Heritage Unbreakable Goblin
Ancestry Feats:
1 Bouncy Goblin - +2 circumstance bonus to Acrobatics checks to Tumble Through. Which is our default way to get panache
5 Natural Ambition Dueling Parry
9 Very Sneaky
13 Unbreakable-er Goblin
17 Reckless Abandon (Goblin)
Background:
Barber. Checkers has incredibly steady hands and everyone has to earn a living some how. ( Medicine skill, Surgery Lore skill, Risky Surgery skill feat)
General Feats:
3 Ancestral Ancestry (Human)
7 Fleet
11 Incredible Initiative
15 Toughness
19 Feather Step
Class Feats:
1 Disarming Flair
2 Acrobat Dedication
4 Leading Dance
6 Attack of Opportunity,
8 Guardian's Deflection, was Bleeding Finisher before level 14
10 Derring-Do
12 Dueling Dance
14 Perfect Finisher
16 Deadly Grace
18 Agile Maneuvers
20 Inexhaustible Countermoves
Ability Scores Level 1:
Str+4 16
Dex+1 18
Con+2 12
Int-1 10
Wis+1 10
Cha+2 12
Ability Scores Level 20:
Str+5 20
Dex+7 24
Con+4 18
Int+0 10
Wis+4 18
Cha+1 14
Skills:
Trained: Survival, Diplomacy, Thievery, Surgery Lore Lore
Expert:
Master:
Legendary: Acrobatics, Athletics, Stealth, Medicine
Skill Feats:
BG Risky Surgery
2 Titan Wrestler
3 Acrobatic Performer
4 Continual Recovery
6 Steady Balance
7 Kip Up
8 Battle Medicine
10 Continual Recovery
12 Quiet Allies
14 Combat Climber
15 Water Sprint
16 Foil Senses
18 Nimble Crawl
20 Legendary Medic
Equipment:
No armour, but will have been in Leather then Exploerer clothes in earlier levels
Anklets of Alacrity
Armbands of Athleticism (Greater)
Scorpion Whip by default but also a Rapier for when we mostly want to grab or do a bit more damage, (with Perfect Finisher and Deadly Grace) and a Composite Long Bow for a ranged option
Potion of Quickness
Winged Boots
Checkers the Goblin Gymnast
This is a control Swashbuckler build I have been working on that is not really designed to do a lot of damage, but rather get to critical successes on grapple checks and restrain enemies denying them a useful round. Its a Gymast Swashbuckler which is not really considered a power option. The main way it gets panache is via Tumble Through. For which Bouncy Goblin give it a +2 circumstance bonus. It will not always use finisher at the end of a turn, but do a normal attack instead. Hopefully starting its turn with panache, using then regaining it.
Damage on a noraml strike with panache is modest. Damage on a finisher at level 20, rolling twice to attack via Perfect Finisher and critically on a 19 via Keen Flair, with a rapier is (4d6 major striking +5 Str + 6d6 finisher + 3d6 from damage runes) doubled +4d8 Deadly Grace for an average 129. Which is OK.
Then it can Disarm or Trip vs Reflex, Grapple or Shove vs Fortitude, rolling twice on each attempt with Derring Do. This helps with the fact that it is using Strength a secondary ability score for Athletics. Its athletics skill modifier will be down 1 for level 1-4, 10-14, 17+ because of this. However. It also gets a +1 circumstance bonus as well to these checks so your aren't going to notice much.
Because it can do Leading Dance with Acrobatics via Acrobatic Performer, it can also target an enemies Will defense to move it out of position. Note that there is no panache for this, but you can also keep doing it to drag an enemy to exactly where you want him. I'm sure its hilarious when you get an item that lets you fly.
Identifying your opponents weaker defense is going to be important to this build. It will work much better if there is someone with Recall Knowledge in the party.
There is space in the build for another 2 legendary skills, so Stealth and Medicine, why not. What the build really wants is another 3 slots for tenth level feats :)Heritage Unbreakable Goblin
Ancestry Feats:
1 Bouncy Goblin - +2 circumstance bonus...
Perfect Finisher replaces Confident Finisher from what I understand. It is its own finisher and doesn't stack with any other finisher. There is no confident finisher damage bonus applied.
Grappling, Shove, and Tripping all have the attack trait. You can't use them after using a finisher. I'm assuming the finisher will always be what you do after you grapple with a MAP penalty. The main focus would be the restraint forcing the enemy to use escape actions to do anything, while applying moderate but consistent damage with Perfect Finisher.
Builds are why I think the Swashbuckler could be a decent tank type in a group. They have some odd builds that are pretty tanky.
Perfect Finisher replaces Confident Finisher from what I understand. It is its own finisher and doesn't stack with any other finisher. There is no confident finisher damage bonus applied.
Of course. Did I say something that implies otherwise? The extra damage is from the Deadly grace and the normal finisher damage. Not much else.
Grappling, Shove, and Tripping all have the attack trait. You can't use them after using a finisher. I'm assuming the finisher will always be what you do after you grapple with a MAP penalty. The main focus would be the restraint forcing the enemy to use escape actions to do anything, while applying moderate but consistent damage with Perfect Finisher.
Or not even always using a finisher.
Panache is mostly gained by tumbling through to avoid MAP and to get two rolls on ahtletics maneuvers.
I think maybe the Braggart Swashbuckler is a more balanced build. But this build has a lot of martial control options, and may be close to the best grappler. Plus it gets dissed enough someone had to show how it works.
Perfect Finisher replaces Confident Finisher from what I understand. It is its own finisher and doesn't stack with any other finisher. There is no confident finisher damage bonus applied.
Of course. Did I say something that implies otherwise? The extra damage is from the Deadly grace and the normal finisher damage. Not much else.
Grappling, Shove, and Tripping all have the attack trait. You can't use them after using a finisher. I'm assuming the finisher will always be what you do after you grapple with a MAP penalty. The main focus would be the restraint forcing the enemy to use escape actions to do anything, while applying moderate but consistent damage with Perfect Finisher.
Or not even always using a finisher.
Panache is mostly gained by tumbling through to avoid MAP and to get two rolls on ahtletics maneuvers.
I think maybe the Braggart Swashbuckler is a more balanced build. But this build has a lot of martial control options, and may be close to the best grappler. Plus it gets dissed enough someone had to show how it works.
They don't get Confident Finisher damage with Perfect Finisher. Confident Finisher is its own finisher.
Perfect Finisher would only include Deadly Grace and the flat precision damage.
They don't get Confident Finisher damage with Perfect Finisher. Confident Finisher is its own finisher.Perfect Finisher would only include Deadly Grace and the flat precision damage.
The build is not using Confident Finisher at all. The 6d6 is from Precise Strike. That applies to all finishers.
So let's say a Bleeding Finisher hits, does it do the 6d6 damage on top of the 6d6 Persistent Bleed damage?
Yes
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So let's say a Bleeding Finisher hits, does it do the 6d6 damage on top of the 6d6 Persistent Bleed damage?
Yes
You strike with flair. When you have panache and you Strike with an agile or finesse melee weapon or agile or finesse unarmed attack, you deal 2 additional precision damage. If the strike is part of a finisher, the additional damage is 2d6 precision damage instead.
Bleeding finisher includes a Strike and has the finisher tag, so it deals extra d6s (in addition to bleed damage equal to your precise strike finisher damage). Confident Finisher simply includes the text to include it as reminder text.
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HalfElf Flurry Ranger
Because you asked
This is a combat build desigend to do lot of attacks with as small a MAP penalty as possible
Primary Weapon is still a FlickMace for the Reach and the prone critical,
Secondary weapon is a simple Hatchet, which gets to do all the flurrying. But any other 1d6 agile weapon is also good.
Still taken a few reactions, the inferior Ranger AoO Disrupt Prey, because we do have reach, plus Riposte. But with no chance to get more than one reaction there seems littel point in working at getting better reactions.
A few extra damage options. Sneak Attacker because you often have flanking in a party, plus Gravity weapon because why not have that bonus.
There is still space in the build if you wanted to go with snares or something more thematic for a ranger. I don't recommend an animal companion as your our attacks are likely better.
Level 20 will be doing Impossible Flurry for 6 strikes (-2,-4,-4 with the flickmace, plus 3 strikes with the Hatchet at -2,-2,-2) The advantage being that all of then can be on the one target, unlike something like Whirlwind Strike which gets on one on each. Though even without those top two feats the normal round at level 17 would be strike at +0 FlickMace then more strikes at -1,-2,-2 with the Hatchet.
I prefer to pair the flickmace with an agile weapon normally, but technically at the top end here, 2 agile weapons are best for 6 strikes at -1,-2,-2,-2,-2,-2
Heritage Half Elf
Ancestry Feats:
1 Natural Ambition - Gravity Weapon
5 Unconventional Weaponry - Flick Mace
9 Multitalented - Swashbuckler Dedication (Gymnast)
13 Elf Step
17 Heroic Presence
Background:
Prisoner. (Stealth skill, Underworld Lore skill, Experienced Smuggler skill feat)
General Feats:
3 Incredible Initiative
7 Fleet
11 Toughness
15 Feather Step
19 True Perception
Class Feats:
1 Twin Takedown
2 Rogue Dedication
4 Disrupt Prey
6 Sneak Attacker
8 Soothing Mist *
10 Swashbuckler's Riposte
12 Double Prey
14 Camouflage *
16 Hunted Shot *
18 Impossible Flurry
20 Accurate Flurry
Ability Scores Level 1:
Str+4 18
Dex+1 14
Con+2 12
Int+0 10
Wis+2 14
Cha+2 10
Ability Scores Level 20:
Str+7 24
Dex+5 20
Con+4 18
Int+0 10
Wis+4 20
Cha+1 12
Skills:
Trained: Underworld Lore
Expert: Thievery
Master: Nature, Acrobatics
Legendary: Stealth, Athletics, Survival
Skill Feats:
BG Experienced Smuggler
2 Forager
4 Train Animal
6 Steady Balance
8 Titan Wrestler
10 Kip Up
12 Terrain Expertise
14 Combat Climber
16 Foil Senses
18 Legendary Guide
20 Planar Survival
Equipment:
Leather armour
Belt of Giant Strength
Goggles of Night (Major)
Flick Mace
Hatchet
Composite Long Bow
Potion of Quickness
Winged Boots
Some options with the flurry ranger:
1) use to hatchets, double prey and potentially do 6 attacks at -1 map by using the sweep trait. Plus 2 agile weapons, so the extra d6 is for each attack.
2) take opportune backstab as an almost always reaction, you have rogue already, if you are in a party with more martials.
3) can also use dual dogslicers, or dual sawtooth sabres for extra precision or circumstance damage. Stacks with status damage from bard or witch (stoke the heart). Adds up, with six attacks.
Flurry ranger is the highest damage dealer aas far as I see, as all attacks can add 4 extra dice (3 runes, sneak).
Some options with the flurry ranger:
1) use to hatchets, double prey and potentially do 6 attacks at -1 map by using the sweep trait. Plus 2 agile weapons, so the extra d6 is for each attack.
2) take opportune backstab as an almost always reaction, you have rogue already, if you are in a party with more martials.
3) can also use dual dogslicers, or dual sawtooth sabres for extra precision or circumstance damage. Stacks with status damage from bard or witch (stoke the heart). Adds up, with six attacks.Flurry ranger is the highest damage dealer aas far as I see, as all attacks can add 4 extra dice (3 runes, sneak).
Definitely opportune backstab should be in the build. For me I'm too much of a reach advocate to not wanting to have a reach weapon available, because of its general play benefits.
The +1 Circumstance bonus to hit from sweep is useful, but only if you are spreading your attacks around as it requires you to have attacked someone else. On plus side is impossible flurry doesn't require you to be attacking your prey to work, though you don't get the reduced MAP from hunters edge except againt your prey. But of course you can have multiple prey anyway.
Because you can control the order of your attacks the circumstance bonus from two twin weapons is going to apply to all bar one attack. So the sawtooth sabre flurry with an attack at -1 to hit, and 5 attacks at -2 to hit but +4 circumstans bonus damage is probably the largest single target damage in a turn.
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Another fighter build if your DM just lets you use Heaven’s Thunder
Fighter (Knife, retrain to Brawling at 10)
1: Double Slice (2 fighting fans) retrain to Reactive Shield at 10
2: Intimidating Strike, Retrain to Aggressive Block / Sudden Charge at 10
4: Jalmeri Heavenseeker Dedication (Ki Rush)
6: Heaven’s Thunder
8: Sky and Heaven Stance retrain to Blind-Fight at 15 (honestly not a great stance but the damage bonus is notable early)
(9:) Monk Dedication via Multitalented
(9:) Blind-Fight, retrain to Quick Shield Block at 10
10: Monk’s Flurry
12: Certain Strike
14: Combat Reflexes
(15:) Paragon Guard
16: Stance Savant / Determination
18: Savage Critical
20: Boundless Reprisals
Another fighter build if your DM just lets you use Heaven’s Thunder
Adding + level damage for two turns to all strikes, even if it did cost a focus point - which it doesn't, does seem to be too good to be true.
I can't imagine any serious GM being happy with this power. It is the sole item on my banned list for PF2.|
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Another fighter build if your DM just lets you use Heaven’s Thunder
Adding + level damage for two turns to all strikes, even if it did cost a focus point - which it doesn't, does seem to be too good to be true.
I can't imagine any serious GM being happy with this power. It is the sole item on my banned list for PF2.
Well, it is some specific strikes (Monk weapons and unarmed) but yes I agree, it's pretty broken.
I only have 3 items on my ban list
- Heaven's Thunder
- Pin to the Spot
- Sixth Pillar Mastery for Wild Druids only.
sawtooth sabres.
I'm finding them very hard to use at full value. As common advanced weapons that I can't pick them up via an ancestry feat. Unconventional Weaponry doesn't help at all.
It seems like its Red Mantis Assassin Dedication only which is going to be a bridge too far for many character concepts.
HalfElf Flurry Ranger
updated
This is a combat build desigend to do lot of attacks with as small a MAP penalty as possible. Still taken a few reactions, the inferior Ranger AoO Disrupt Prey, because we do have reach, plus Riposte and Opportune Backstab. A few extra damage options. Sneak Attacker because you often have flanking in a party, plus Gravity weapon because why not have that bonus.
There is still space in the build if you wanted to go with snares or something more thematic for a ranger. I don't recommend an animal companion as your own attacks are likely better.
Level 20 will be doing Impossible Flurry for 6 strikes. The advantage being that all of then can be on the one target, unlike something like Whirlwind Strike which gets on one on each.
I prefer to pair the flickmace with an agile weapon normally, but technically at level 18, 2 agile weapons like the dogslicer are best for 6 strikes at -1,-2,-2,-2,-2,-2.
Twinned Sawtoothed sabres might be better but that requires the RedMantis Dedication.
Heritage Half Elf
Ancestry Feats:
1 Natural Ambition - Gravity Weapon
5 Unconventional Weaponry - Dogslicer
9 Multitalented - Swashbuckler Dedication (Gymnast)
13 Elf Step
17 Heroic Presence
Background:
Prisoner. (Stealth skill, Underworld Lore skill, Experienced Smuggler skill feat)
General Feats:
3 Incredible Initiative
7 Fleet
11 Toughness
15 Feather Step
19 True Perception
Class Feats:
1 Twin Takedown
2 Rogue Dedication
4 Disrupt Prey
6 Sneak Attacker
8 Soothing Mist *
10 Swashbuckler's Riposte
12 Double Prey
14 Hunted Shot *
16 Opportune Backstab
18 Impossible Flurry
20 Accurate Flurry
Ability Scores Level 1:
Str+4 18
Dex+1 14
Con+2 12
Int+0 10
Wis+1 14
Cha+2 10
Ability Scores Level 20:
Str+7 24
Dex+5 20
Con+4 18
Int+0 10
Wis+4 20
Cha+1 12
Skills:
Trained: Underworld Lore
Expert: Thievery
Master: Nature, Acrobatics
Legendary: Stealth, Athletics, Survival
Skill Feats:
BG Experienced Smuggler
2 Forager
4 Train Animal
6 Steady Balance
8 Titan Wrestler
10 Kip Up
12 Terrain Expertise
14 Combat Climber
16 Foil Senses
18 Legendary Guide
20 Planar Survival
Equipment:
Leather armour
Belt of Giant Strength
Goggles of Night (Major)
2x Dogslicer
Composite Long Bow
Potion of Quickness
Winged Boots
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sawtooth sabres.I'm finding them very hard to use at full value. As common advanced weapons that I can't pick them up via an ancestry feat. Unconventional Weaponry doesn't help at all.
It seems like its Red Mantis Assassin Dedication only which is going to be a bridge too far for many character concepts.
To be a red mantis assassin, you already need to be trained, so that doesn't help. But the weapon seems to be common on Mediogalti Island, see government chapter. So that would make it work with Unconventional Weaponry, as it seems to fit "or that is common in another culture".
The doglsicer is a martial weapon, no UW needed. And the flurry attacks at lvl 20 are 2x -1, 4x -2 map.
More options: combine agile with deadly on higher levels to have extra dice on crits. Tamchal Chakram for example. Missing the +2 precision damage per attack for dogslicers, or the +4 circumstance on 5 attacks for the sawtooths, but on a crit they'd give 3 extra dice.
Versatile Alchemist
Small size Ancestry
1: Alchemical Familiar (Valet + whatever)
2: Cavalier Dedication
4: Impressive Mount
5: Ageless Patience
6: Calculated Splash
8: Incredible Mount (if your companion is not targeted often, you can pass on Incredible/Specialized Mount)
10: Expanded Splash
12: Potent Poisoner
14: (Specialized Mount)
Every round, you have a free Stride thanks to your Animal Companion, one action to draw 2 Elixirs/Bombs thanks to your Familiar and then 2 actions to deliver them. Starting at level 5, you compete with 2-action Heals in terms of single target healing output and you last longer than a Cleric if you produce lots of Elixirs of Life (and/or play a Chirurgeon).
This is an ideal build for a versatile Alchemist who wants to heal, deliver buffs, poison his allies' weapons, be strong with skills and keep an honorable attack option. In my opinion, it's very close to the best high Dexterity Alchemist build you can produce.
I wouldn't put an Alchemist in an optimized 4-character party, but I'd definitely consider adding one in a 5+-character party in a campaign with short adventuring days (like PFS). Especially if the party lacks some important but secondary roles (skill monkey, secondary healer, Knowledge dispenser, non magical range attacker).
Another Build
An effective ranged rogue with Napoleon style pretentions of grandeur
I'm trying to put together a ranged rogue archer, which I haven't seen done much because of the difficulty of obtaining flat footed at ranged. I believe the secret is the Mastermind Racket which gives flat footed on a successful Recall Knowledge. Recall Knowledge is useful - to the party probably more than this character directly - but this extra advantage is enough to make it a much more worth while action. The early Mastermind feats are just plan awful, so its not surprising most people haven't done this.
Note that at no point does the character have a reach weapon. He could but to fix the proficiency problem would require Strength, its easier to just accept his limitation and own being a Sprite. There is enough that this character can do. At high level to be super effective there needs to be another character with a ranged strike in the party.
Plans of Attack:
a) Recall Knowledge to create flatfooted
b) Intimidate to create flatfooted, and help everyone else
c) Dread Marshal Stance
d) Fly and become Invisible from Sprite feats
e) Archer Strike vs flatfooted enemy
f) Encourage some one else to attack with To Battle! (because for some reason I am less effective)
g) Draw your rapier and close till you can see the whites of their eyes (range 0 as you don't have reach)
Heritage Sprite Melixie
Ancestry Feats:
1 Corgi Mount - Penfold of course with Independant familiar trait for a free move.
5 Animal Speaker
9 Energize Wings
13 Invisible Trickster - a flying invisible archer, whats not to like?
17 Hero's Wings
Background:
Translator. (Society skill, Scribing Lore skill, Multilingual skill feat)
General Feats:
3 Weapon Proficiency
7 Ancestral Paragon: Evanescent Wings
11 Incredible Initiative
15 Toughness
19 Canny Acumen to cover that Fortitude Save
Class Feats:
1 Trap Finder
2 Marshal Dedication
4 Dread Striker
6 Dread Marshal Stance
8 Inspired Stratagem
10 To Battle!
12 Opportune Backstab (not the point of the build but a bit powerful to totally ignore)
14 Target of Opportunity
16 Sense the Unseen
18 Instant Opening
20 Hidden Paragon
Ability Scores Level 1:
Str-1 8
Dex+1 18
Con+1 12
Int+3 16
Wis+1 12
Cha+1 12
Ability Scores Level 20:
Str-1 08 you are a sprite, own it!
Dex+7 24
Con+4 18
Int+5 20
Wis+4 18
Cha+4 18
Skills: Start with these (yes you get them all at level 1)
Arcana
Occultism
Nature
Religion
Thievery
Stealth
Acrobatics
Society
Crafting
Medicine
Intimidation
Diplomacy
Scribing Lore
Maybe its easier to say what you don't get: Deception, Performance, Survival - though Penfold can make an excellent tracker if you give him the Skilled Survival ability at the start of the day. But if you want these too take the Skill Training Skill feat you have enough to get them all as well)
By level 20
Trained: Diplomacy, Society, Crafting Scribing Lore
Expert: Medicine
Master: Occultism, Nature, Religion
Legendary: Stealth, Thievery, Intimidation, Arcana
Languages: Common, Sylvan + 3 from Intelligence and 2 from multilingual, all animals(level 5). More from increased intelligence and the multilingual feat as he levels.
Skill Feats: No particular order please adjust.
BG Multilingual
1 Intimidating Glare
2 Continual Recovery
3 Arcane Sense
4 Intimidating Glare
5 Recognize Spell
6 Steady Balance
7 Battle Cry
8 Kip Up
9 Assured Identification
10 Wary Disarmament
11 Quiet Allies
12 Quick Recognition
13 Aerobatics Mastery
14 Swift Sneak
15 Scare to Death
16 Foil Senses
17 Read Lips
18 Trick Magic Item
19 Pickpocket
20 Legendary Thief
Equipment:
Leather armour at least initially
Anklets of Alacrity
Goggles of Night (Major)
Mask of the Banshee
Short Bow
Rapier
Potion of Quickness
Another Build
An effective ranged rogue with Napoleon style pretentions of grandeur
** spoiler omitted **...
Seems like you won't be able to get the Marshal Dedication at 2nd, since you only get Weapon Proficiency at 3rd. Is the intent to retrain into it?
Oops. I'll move it a round...somehow...for now push Marshal Dedication to 6 and take Mobility at level 2 instead... Dread Marshal is optional
HalfElf Flurry Ranger
Because you asked ** spoiler omitted **...
I have a couple questions.
1. How soon does this come online? Would it be real good even starting at like 5th level?
2. Can you show me how the MAP gets so low? I don't play a lot of high levels.
3. How different would it be with the free archetype rule as that is what my group uses?
HalfElf Flurry Ranger
Because you asked ** spoiler omitted **...
I have a couple questions.
1. How soon does this come online? Would it be real good even starting at like 5th level?
2. Can you show me how the MAP gets so low? I don't play a lot of high levels.
3. How different would it be with the free archetype rule as that is what my group uses?
Flurry rangers are effective from level 1. There is a nice damage step up at level 6. It starts to explode in effectiveness at level 16 and is arguably the absolute best single target striker from level 18 to 20.
Read about Flurry here.
Lots of extra options. Only a modest amount of extra power though.
HalfElf Flurry Ranger
Because you asked ** spoiler omitted **...
I have a couple questions.
1. How soon does this come online? Would it be real good even starting at like 5th level?
2. Can you show me how the MAP gets so low? I don't play a lot of high levels.
3. How different would it be with the free archetype rule as that is what my group uses?
From level one you have 4 attacks at map 0, -2, -4, -4 if you get a full attack round, using twin takedown. In the build Gortle shared, the rogue adds 1d6 sneak per attack. As soon as you can, get runes that add damage (fire, frost, shock) which makes lvls 8, 10 and 16 important. Each time an extra d6 per attack. Haste is one of the best possible boosts for a flurry ranger. With free archtype, it gets better, because you than also have space to add the monster hunter feat line. Have wis and improve nature and you can recall knowledge for free using nature (level 10) . Impossible flurry at lvl 18 is awesome with 6 attacks at map -2.
Before 18, you can have one nonagile weapon and one agile weapon. By using doubling rings, you need to have runes on one weapon, the other will have the same effects. For the non-agile weapon you can use any one handed weapon. If finesse, you can use you sneak attack. Otherwise choose for something effective. My flurry ranger walks around with doglicers, rapier, pick and hammer, all flavors as you can see. Have the runes on the agile weapon and choose what you want for the other weapon. Attack with non-agile first followed by three attacks with the agile weapon.
HalfElf Flurry Ranger
Because you asked ** spoiler omitted **...
I have a couple questions.
1. How soon does this come online? Would it be real good even starting at like 5th level?
2. Can you show me how the MAP gets so low? I don't play a lot of high levels.
3. How different would it be with the free archetype rule as that is what my group uses?
If you're using Free Archetype with a Flurry Ranger, I would work in an Animal Companion with the Ranger Gang up type feat and using the Free Archetype Feats for the rogue and Swashbuckler additional feats.
A fully kitted animal companion with 1 free action to move into position for an easy flank for you makes the whole build even better as you have complete control over your flanking buddy.
At 5th level the flurry ranger is ok. Pretty standard character.
Flurry Ranger is one of those martial classes that really starts to shine at higher and higher levels.
I would go solo enemies with my Animal Companion at higher level because my flurry ranger did so much damage it was a waste of time to attack anything other than a boss with other players.
If you're using Free Archetype with a Flurry Ranger, I would work in an Animal Companion with the Ranger Gang up type feat and using the Free Archetype Feats for the rogue and Swashbuckler additional feats.A fully kitted animal companion with 1 free action to move into position for an easy flank for you makes the whole build even better as you have complete control over your flanking buddy.
For Free Archetype there is pretty much no character that doesn't benefit from an Animal Companion gained via Cavalier or Beast Master. Especially if you are using it in a no action cost way like this.
Personally it is adding baggage to the game and slowing it down. I would recommend restricting extra animal companions with Free Archetype for gaming groups with large number of players. It affects the pace of the game if everyone grabs one. A game where everyone takes the same option gets boring pretty quick.
If you're using Free Archetype with a Flurry Ranger, I would work in an Animal Companion with the Ranger Gang up type feat and using the Free Archetype Feats for the rogue and Swashbuckler additional feats.A fully kitted animal companion with 1 free action to move into position for an easy flank for you makes the whole build even better as you have complete control over your flanking buddy.
For Free Archetype there is pretty much no character that doesn't benefit from an Animal Companion gained via Cavalier or Beast Master. Especially if you are using it in a no action cost way like this.
Personally it is adding baggage to the game and slowing it down. I would recommend restricting extra animal companions with Free Archetype for gaming groups with large number of players. It affects the pace of the game if everyone grabs one. A game where everyone takes the same option gets boring pretty quick.
It's particularly good for a flurry ranger purely for the flanking, so the flurry ranger can operate solo rather than need his companions for flanking. It's good for them to operate solo for the opportune riposte as well against non-boss creatures. At least I found it good.
A flurry ranger starts to output so much damage it is a waste of damage to go after the same creature. You end up wasting attacks. The flurry ranger wants minimal waste of attacks.
I would stay away from Flurry Ranger if I look for an optimized build. They are plain weak before level 17. And even after level 17, they are not stellar. The build you've posted outdamages my Fighter by 10% with an Impossible Flurry with Sneak Attack (which is an important part of your damage hardly compatible with a 3-action attack routine). For one or two actions, my Fighter deals 30% more damage. So it's far from being really good.
Flurry is the most overrated option in the game, in my opinion.
As a side note, there's a mistake in your build, you need to take a low level Rogue feat to get Opportune Backstab.