Hello all!
I will be participating in a game this Wednesday, and we are playing the Abomination Vaults AP. My DM hinted that undead are a big thing in this AP, so I decided to make a Psychopomp bloodline sorcerer, and am leaning into the Duskwalker ancestry for added flavor.
I am fairly new to Pathfinder 2e, and am unsure how I should built this character. What spells should I take, how should my stats be set up, etc. Should I stick with the sorcerer idea, or go with something else?
The rest of the party is an Orc ranger, a Kobold wizard, and a Leshy monk.
Thank you!
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I don't know how relevant it is to your character, but your Ranger should be warned not to take the Precision edge. It really ought to have said this in the Player's Guide for Abomination Vaults, but Precision damage is really disadvantaged in this campaign unless the GM makes some houserules regarding it.
As for your Sorcerer, make sure you and the Wizard have the party's bases covered. Make sure you've got some AoE and Healing between you (at least by the time you get second level spells). At 4th level you could grab Divine Evolution for the extra top level slot Heal. I'd strongly recommend grabbing the Magic Weapon spell, as it will make your martials extremely strong in early encounters (until you pick up Striking Weapons).
For your stats, just make sure that your key ability score (Charisma for a Sorcerer) is as high as possible with your boosts, which means 18 at level 1, 19 at level 5 and 20 by level 10. Because you're already Charisma focused I'd recommend grabbing Diplomacy or Intimidation as skills (or both). After that people usually recommend pumping Con/Dex/Wis for the boost to Health/AC/saves.
Reach spell feat might be interesting for the campaign, it works great with Sanctuary, Magic Weapon and Disrupting Weapon.
Blood Vendetta is a spell that I really like too and with an Orc and Kobold the Darkness spell might be interesting when fighting enemies that don't have Darkvision.
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Is that the ENTIRE party?
If so I suggest ditching the spellcaster idea, you NEED a (Capital T) "Tank" and badly, like... without getting into spoilers you're probably not going to make it to level 2 (Or later on if you DO survive you're going to hit a major roadbump from level 3 to 4) if you don't have more than one PC with above-average AC and HP unless you collectively decide to just run away from any of the opponents that are bigger than medium size during the first two-to-four game sessions. In the best case scenario, you're going to all get lucky and make it through by the skin of your teeth, more likely you'll have at least one player writing up a new character, or more likely the Ranger and Monk are going to be sacrificed so the rest of the party can flee.
Is that the ENTIRE party?
If so I suggest ditching the spellcaster idea, you NEED a (Capital T) "Tank" and badly, like... without getting into spoilers you're probably not going to make it to level 2 (Or later on if you DO survive you're going to hit a major roadbump from level 3 to 4) if you don't have more than one PC with above-average AC and HP unless you collectively decide to just run away from any of the opponents that are bigger than medium size during the first two-to-four game sessions. In the best case scenario, you're going to all get lucky and make it through by the skin of your teeth, more likely you'll have at least one player writing up a new character, or more likely the Ranger and Monk are going to be sacrificed so the rest of the party can flee.
As I've said, myself and my group are new to Pathfinder 2e, but are monks and rangers *that* squishy? It seems absurd to me that the system is so dependent on a particular class type that death is almost assured without it.
While there are quite a few undead there are also lots of non undead encounters. Make sure you do not specialize against undead TOO much
Thanks for the heads up.
I wasn't planning on going to heavily against undead; the great part of the psychopomp bloodline is that a lot of the base features are already geared against undead, allowing me to branch out with spell choices.
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Monk is actually tied for the best AC attainable and the "floor" to get there is SUPER easy to attain but without a high HP/level boost and frequently with a Con Mod that's +2 or less at BEST they can get knocked out of the fight from even just one solid hit from an enemy that is +2 party level (of which you'll fight a few NASTY ones).
Rangers on the other hand... they're not Tanks either and while they have more HP than the Monk would they have about they will have trouble investing in Con as well. A Tank-y Ranger is totally possible but they don't really get much in the way of defensive abilities, Half-Orc can help with this for SURE with the right Ancestry Feats/Heritage but I wouldn't advise they trying to fill a front-line position unless you're aiming squarely for a Melee specialist.
The "problem" here has more to with the fact that you only have 4 PCs and none of them are going to be able to pull off more than 1 heal per person per hour at BEST and even then it's going to come down to them needing Battle Medicine AND rolling well when you need it. So yeah, it's not that they're squishy, it's mainly just that ... well they're going to get hit and hit HARD, without a way to recover or mitigate the incoming damage what seems like a simple 4 vs 1 (PCs versus monster) encounter can quickly go from 3 vs 1 with the ONE person who was theoretically capable of getting hit a few times bleeding out on the floor without a way to GET to them without your back-line PCs eating attacks on their own.
If you had a 5th player and neither of them rolled Tank or Healer you'd probably be fine no matter what, but with four... and a lack of a PC specialized in either of these roles, things are going to be rough for "mini-boss" and "boss" encounters, especially the ones you're bound to run into at level 1 and level 3, again trying my best to avoid any substantial spoilers. My group learned this lesson the hard way with with a Barbarian, Alchemist, Sorcerer, and Rogue, we had plenty of role support but when it comes to taking a big hit or two, you do NOT want the same character to get hit two or three times before someone can feel them one of the emergency healing potions.
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Quite the opposite, monks are amazing front-line disrupters and "tanks." I don't agree with Metricsystem that you have a problem. Hell, even the orc can take some hits especially if they end up grabbing many of the orc ancestry feats. Depending on the ranger's build, you may end up as a more mobile group With the wizard and sorc wanting to stick at range, if the monk and ranger tie up melee, you likely won't have to worry as much about positioning. A ranged ranger, however, is probably going to have your monk wanting to do a lot more "stick and move" sort of things.
But those are the other players and not you. The divine spell list is hardly ever "blasty," but it does have some good spellcaster staples: fear, bless (likely not going to be your go-to if you stay in the back), heal/harm, magic weapon, guidance, forbidding ward.
Heal should almost certainly get a signature spell slot just to save you from picking it up every single level. I would open a lot of fights with forbidding ward on your monk, guidancing anyone else, and playing with a ranged weapon or using an ancestry feat to grab a damaging cantrip (I prefer this option since you're already going to be maxing Charisma).
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As I've said, myself and my group are new to Pathfinder 2e, but are monks and rangers *that* squishy? It seems absurd to me that the system is so dependent on a particular class type that death is almost assured without it.Is that the ENTIRE party?
If so I suggest ditching the spellcaster idea, you NEED a (Capital T) "Tank" and badly, like... without getting into spoilers you're probably not going to make it to level 2 (Or later on if you DO survive you're going to hit a major roadbump from level 3 to 4) if you don't have more than one PC with above-average AC and HP unless you collectively decide to just run away from any of the opponents that are bigger than medium size during the first two-to-four game sessions. In the best case scenario, you're going to all get lucky and make it through by the skin of your teeth, more likely you'll have at least one player writing up a new character, or more likely the Ranger and Monk are going to be sacrificed so the rest of the party can flee.
They're not that squishy, since both classes are d10 HP, but if the orc ranger is an archer or the Leshy monk has low AC, then you may not have enough front-liners to keep your back-liners safe.
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As a GM with a group of two monks, an alchemist, and a wizard, I have to report that monks have been fantastic tanks, just not in the traditional mindset of one. If your monk runs into melee, Trips someone, and then runs out while the rest of the party blasts away with ranged attacks and spells, that's some good tanking in my mind. Even when stuck in melee, they have the best AC and access to shields along with the highest Speed in the game.
THAT said, a monk could still go "Strength-Non-Mountain Stance" and end up being more of a skirmisher that isn't going to enjoy their AC. It's hard to say without really seeing the builds.
As a GM with a group of two monks, an alchemist, and a wizard, I have to report that monks have been fantastic tanks, just not in the traditional mindset of one. If your monk runs into melee, Trips someone, and then runs out while the rest of the party blasts away with ranged attacks and spells, that's some good tanking in my mind. Even when stuck in melee, they have the best AC and access to shields along with the highest Speed in the game.
THAT said, a monk could still go "Strength-Non-Mountain Stance" and end up being more of a skirmisher that isn't going to enjoy their AC. It's hard to say without really seeing the builds.
It's looking like the monk is going to be strength focused. He isn't sure if he'll go mountain or tiger, though.
I have no idea what the ranger will be doing.
I would actually not prioritize trying to boost an attribute past 18 in this AP unless you think your characters are going to continue the campaign. Spending a boost to get to 19 at level 5 is a really heavy cost since you will get, at most, a single level with that +1. If your character really doesn't need the extra attribute points, then there is nothing wrong with boosting your CHA at maximum rate, but it will only give you a +1 for 1 out 10 levels instead of 10 out of 20 like it would in a full AP.
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I would actually not prioritize trying to boost an attribute past 18 in this AP unless you think your characters are going to continue the campaign. Spending a boost to get to 19 at level 5 is a really heavy cost since you will get, at most, a single level with that +1. If your character really doesn't need the extra attribute points, then there is nothing wrong with boosting your CHA at maximum rate, but it will only give you a +1 for 1 out 10 levels instead of 10 out of 20 like it would in a full AP.
You don't think it's worth it to have maxed spell DC/Attack against the BBEG? Would you recommend the same thing for a martial character? A +1 goes a long way in this game, and the final fight is a real bad time to flub a roll.
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I would actually not prioritize trying to boost an attribute past 18 in this AP unless you think your characters are going to continue the campaign. Spending a boost to get to 19 at level 5 is a really heavy cost since you will get, at most, a single level with that +1. If your character really doesn't need the extra attribute points, then there is nothing wrong with boosting your CHA at maximum rate, but it will only give you a +1 for 1 out 10 levels instead of 10 out of 20 like it would in a full AP.You don't think it's worth it to have maxed spell DC/Attack against the BBEG? Would you recommend the same thing for a martial character? A +1 goes a long way in this game, and the final fight is a real bad time to flub a roll.
Yeah, I understand the min/max idea of getting the most for your ability boosts, but level 10 is where you want to be your strongest. Those final challenges are pretty tricky.
I do not think the +1 for the very last level of the campaign is a "must have" that is more important than boosting saving throws or other very useful attributes from a 14 to an 18. Again, it is up to each individual player to decide, but the usual logic of boosts is incredibly depreciated in a level 1 to 10 AP.
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Like you say, that's definitely up to personal preference. I, personally, would rather have my main stat maxed going into the final stretch of the book. That's not to say that it isn't something to consider, however.
The "problem" here has more to with the fact that you only have 4 PCs and none of them are going to be able to pull off more than 1 heal per person per hour at BEST and even then it's going to come down to them needing Battle Medicine AND rolling well when you need it.
The sorcerer can cast Heal and Vital beacon. Those Searing Light spells we be devastating to the undead.
Its going to be rough. A lot of the enemies we have faced have incredible saves. Be mobile, do what you can to work together. Good luck.
So it looks like we *might* be getting a 5th player, though I have no idea what they will be playing.
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Be aware that several encounters (even more if the GM considers that monsters close by should come and investigate what the noises are) are of the Get beaten now, flee to survive and come back later to win through adequate preparation variety. Not a few are in fact of the Come back in 2 levels variety.
Amusing fact : there are higher level monsters in the lower XP level locations, but never the other way around.
Hello all!
I will be participating in a game this Wednesday, and we are playing the Abomination Vaults AP. My DM hinted that undead are a big thing in this AP, so I decided to make a Psychopomp bloodline sorcerer, and am leaning into the Duskwalker ancestry for added flavor.
I am fairly new to Pathfinder 2e, and am unsure how I should built this character. What spells should I take, how should my stats be set up, etc. Should I stick with the sorcerer idea, or go with something else?
The rest of the party is an Orc ranger, a Kobold wizard, and a Leshy monk.
Thank you!
I'm running this adventure and wish your group good luck, don't worry about the formation of the group. This AP is more luck and exploration strategy than others I've seen.
For a building, this adventure has a large variety of monsters, undead are a good choice to focus on. The rest just depends on how the GM uses the scenario.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Amusing fact : there are higher level monsters in the lower XP level locations, but never the other way around.
That isn't quite true, there are several low level monsters in higher level areas but they are not immediately hostile (which makes a lot of sense given they're intelligent.)
There is a level 1 monster in the second book, and a level 3 one in the 3rd book for example.
Any advice for a solid build? I'm still new to 2e sorcerers, and am kind of clueless as to what feats and spells I should be picking.
And is it just me, or do the effects of most feats and spells feel rather minor? Especially when you look at monster stats and see creatures with saves in the 30's.
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Any advice for a solid build? I'm still new to 2e sorcerers, and am kind of clueless as to what feats and spells I should be picking.
And is it just me, or do the effects of most feats and spells feel rather minor? Especially when you look at monster stats and see creatures with saves in the 30's.
"Build" is a very different idea in PF2 than it is in other TTRPGs. In PF1, for instance, powerful build let you push up damage, accuracy, or save ceilings. In PF2, they're hard capped by your level. PF2 builds are very much about "my character has these options available," rather than "my character does this the best."
So in looking at a sorcerer build, many of your actual options are going to come more from your spell selection than your feats. That isn't to say that feat selection won't define your character, just that spells likely will be of greater importance.
All that said, here's a quick mock-up from myself. I'm currently running AV and have read the three books, but I will avoid spoiler-y answers.
1st level
This is all spell selection and Psychopomp gives you Heal and Disrupt Undead to begin with, which is great as they're high on my list of recommended spells.
Cantrips should be effects you want to use all the time. Things like Light and Detect Magic, but Forbidding Ward and Guidance are absolute musts, in my opinion. The effects may seem minor, but I will address that later.
Your first level spells should tend towards support with your group. If you're feeling blasty, grab Harm, but I have a feeling you'll get more mileage out of spells like Fear and Command to keep enemies down.
I don't know what your base ancestry is, but I recommend one that gives you access to a primal or arcane cantrip so that you can get something like Electric Arc for turns in which everything is going well and you don't need to act as support for your team. Don't take this to mean, "Turn into a turret spamming electric arc and nothing else," as I can say from experience that things like debuffing and buffing allies helps a lot more.
2nd level
Our first feat, huzzah! This is a great time to look at dedications, I feel. My One Weird Pitch here is Archaeologist which will give you some pseudo-rogue tricks that it looks like your party could need along with some Lore stuff (especially helpful to have Otari Lore, I feel). If your group needs more healing, Blessed One and Medic are quite fantastic as well. Blessed One, in particular, works great with sorcerers' Focus Point tricks. I also have a soft spot for Loremaster and Talisman Dabbler, but your GM may not agree with me on the strength of those dedications. You could also grab Anoint Ally, as your bloodline ability is... pretty nice. Heal someone and give them a +2 to Fort saves? Yes, please.
4th level
Skipping up to save time to talk 2nd level spells and 4th level feat. You get Calm Emotions which can potentially be a FIGHT ENDER all the way through the dungeon. Don't sleep on this spell. There's a reason it's got the Incap tag. Dispel Magic is another must have spell and should be a candidate for your signature spell at 2nd level. Faerie Fire is helpful to have in your back pocket for certain. Silence can also make several trips through the AP much easier for you.
Divine Evolution might be a fine pick-up if you're feeling like you still need more healing (or harming!) It also potentially frees up your level 1 signature spell (Helloooooo AoE Fear). But if you've got a dedication, you may want to grab something from that depending on what you grabbed.
6th level
Heroism! You get Heroism! Slap everyone with this before the big fights! Agonizing Despair is quite fantastic as a debuffing damaging spell (that targets Will, what joy!) but Safe Passage shouldn't be ignored either in this dungeon filled with unsafe passages. Speaking of, depending on your playstyle, Sanctified Ground might also be quite helpful.
Advanced Bloodline is pretty good here, giving you an undead-only invisibility on a Focus Power. I don't hate it. I still feel like the dedication route would likely give you a better option here.
8th level
You have a monk. You have Vital Beacon. They have more actions than tey know what to do with. You need every action. Slap this on yourself at the start of the day and let people heal off of you. Freedom of Movement, Enervation, always good.
I'm biased. I love Crossblooded Evolution. It opens up your options so much that I can't give a good recommendation for what to pick up. Need Fireball? You got Fireball. Need Summon Beast? You got it. Again, dedication. No need for me to say more there if you're against swapping out spells.
10th level
Trust me when I say that Prying Eye is good. Scout the entire dungeon and map it out. Make a plan. Execute the plan. Breath of Life is also immensely useful. Sending, helpful, depending on your party's needs (or story needs).
Dedication, Greater Bloodline, yes, very good. I am also a sucker for Quickened Casting, but I am 100% in the minority here.
I have more to say, but I have to catch a train so give me... maybe an hour. Part 2 coming: Why your spells are amazing and the world needs you to give them a +1.
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And is it just me, or do the effects of most feats and spells feel rather minor? Especially when you look at monster stats and see creatures with saves in the 30's.
Okay, part two.
I hear this a lot when people look at the raw numbers and don't do a lot of spellcasting at the table. I like to use this example at my tables.
On-level encounters are balanced around a coin flip.
Obviously going down the line, not every on-level threat is going to mean your spells or attacks have a 50% chance of hitting, but this is generally the case. When you face higher-level creatures, the odds go down. When you face lower-level creatures the odds go up. This isn't breaking new ground.
However, where many classes only have AC to target with all-or-nothing results, spellcasters have a variety of targets which typically still function on failure. My favorite example is always going to be Fear. An enemy makes a Will save versus your spell DC. Often, opponents have lower Will saves (but once more, this obviously isn't always the case) which means they have a decently high chance to actually fail. If they do, that's frightened 2, or... a -2 to nearly everything: attacks, saves, AC, the whole shebang. If they manage to succeed, well they're still getting a -1 to everything. Not bad! You need to actually succeed with Demoralize to pull that off!
Of course, let's talk about that -1. Obviously, a -1 to attack means a 5% loss in accuracy, but don't forget how crits work in PF2. It's also reducing that chance to be crit by 5%! You also increase the success rate of your follow up attacks and abilities by this 5% (+whatever % you feel like assigning to crit availability).
All well and good, but this is where the tactics of PF2's combat come into play more. Frightened drops by 1 at the end of the afflicted creature's turn. If you cast it directly before their turn, you might be getting... Well, very little bang for your buck. But maybe that penalty is what is going to save your ranger's life. You could throw it out now and hope it's enough to aid your ally or Delay until after their turn to maximize the number of attacks on the debuffed target.
Obviously the inverse is true for buffs targeting your allies. This will lead you to look more critically at skills like Intimidation or feats like Bon Mot. Spending a turn Bon Mot'ing your opponent only to land a crushing Agonizing Despair? Beautiful.
The real trick is, spells don't really get wasted when used tactically. Even with the odds against you, like going up against a level+2 enemy, you've got surefire abilities to slow their assault (speaking of which, Slow is a great spell to grab with Crossblooded Evolution). You won't always get them to fail, but you can always shift the fight towards your favor.
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Any advice for a solid build? I'm still new to 2e sorcerers, and am kind of clueless as to what feats and spells I should be picking.
And is it just me, or do the effects of most feats and spells feel rather minor? Especially when you look at monster stats and see creatures with saves in the 30's.
A few pieces of advice from my experience with an Angelic Sorcerer:
- Try to get access to Electric Arc. At low level, it'll be your bread and butter spell.- Dangerous Sorcery is a no-brainer. This is one of the few feats that directly improve your spell efficiency.
- Heal as a Signature spell is also a no-brainer. But I think you figured this one out.
- Searing Light is a great damage dealer against Fiends and Undeads. If you can get access to True Strike (humans can through Ancestry feats) it's even better.
Any advice for a solid build? I'm still new to 2e sorcerers, and am kind of clueless as to what feats and spells I should be picking.
And is it just me, or do the effects of most feats and spells feel rather minor? Especially when you look at monster stats and see creatures with saves in the 30's.
A few pieces of advice from my experience with an Angelic Sorcerer:
- Try to get access to Electric Arc. At low level, it'll be your bread and butter spell.
- Dangerous Sorcery is a no-brainer. This is one of the few feats that directly improve your spell efficiency.
- Heal as a Signature spell is also a no-brainer. But I think you figured this one out.
- Searing Light is a great damage dealer against Fiends and Undeads. If you can get access to True Strike (humans can through Ancestry feats) it's even better.
I was considering being a Tengu precisely for the ability to cast electric arc. That and I like the ancestry feats.
Any advice for a solid build? I'm still new to 2e sorcerers, and am kind of clueless as to what feats and spells I should be picking.
And is it just me, or do the effects of most feats and spells feel rather minor? Especially when you look at monster stats and see creatures with saves in the 30's.
"Build" is a very different idea in PF2 than it is in other TTRPGs. In PF1, for instance, powerful build let you push up damage, accuracy, or save ceilings. In PF2, they're hard capped by your level. PF2 builds are very much about "my character has these options available," rather than "my character does this the best."
So in looking at a sorcerer build, many of your actual options are going to come more from your spell selection than your feats. That isn't to say that feat selection won't define your character, just that spells likely will be of greater importance.
All that said, here's a quick mock-up from myself. I'm currently running AV and have read the three books, but I will avoid spoiler-y answers.
1st level
This is all spell selection and Psychopomp gives you Heal and Disrupt Undead to begin with, which is great as they're high on my list of recommended spells.Cantrips should be effects you want to use all the time. Things like Light and Detect Magic, but Forbidding Ward and Guidance are absolute musts, in my opinion. The effects may seem minor, but I will address that later.
Your first level spells should tend towards support with your group. If you're feeling blasty, grab Harm, but I have a feeling you'll get more mileage out of spells like Fear and Command to keep enemies down.
I don't know what your base ancestry is, but I recommend one that gives you access to a primal or arcane cantrip so that you can get something like Electric Arc for turns in which everything is going well and you don't need to act as support for your team. Don't take this to mean, "Turn into a turret spamming electric arc and nothing else," as I can...
Thanks! That's a lot of useful information. :)
A few pieces of advice from my experience with an Angelic Sorcerer:
- Try to get access to Electric Arc. At low level, it'll be your bread and butter spell.
This is good advice. This spell has been the only thing consistently effective for my party's Wizard. The rest of the time things have like a 20-30% chance to fail saves and they never do. Wizard has been like nipples on breastplate for our party so far in AV AP.
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For this AP in particular, try to figure out a way to get magic missile, and to do so pretty early. A psychopomp sorcerer worshiping Nethys could get you there very quickly.
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Illusory Object has served my party very well as a great debuff against multiple opponents to exact a kind of "action tax" against the AV creatures so far if that is of any help, not every GM runs illusions the same way though so it may be worth having a discussion with the GM on how they adjudicate their function.
Illusory Object has served my party very well as a great debuff against multiple opponents to exact a kind of "action tax" against the AV creatures so far if that is of any help, not every GM runs illusions the same way though so it may be worth having a discussion with the GM on how they adjudicate their function.
I tend to avoid illusions, mainly because my DM and I often disagree with how effective they should be.
But I'll take it under advisement.
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I find PF2 does a better job elucidating the mechanics of illusion magic than other systems I've played. This can help mitigate variance in GM/player expectations.