So we had an argument in ANOTHER THREAD about how Bull Rush works - specifically the part where you move with your target as you Bull Rush them.
For this thread, let's assume our PC is a Human with 30 feet of movement. We'll also assume you beat the CMD of your target to by 100, allowing you to move as far as your movement would allow.
1. If you use a Standard Action to Bull Rush your Target how far can you move with them?
1.a) What Actions do you have left in your round?
2. What if you're staggered or in a Surprise Round?
3. What if you move before Bull Rushing the target?
4. What if you use a Move Action that isn't movement before Bull Rushing the target?
5. What if you 5-Foot-Step before Bull Rushing your opponent?
6. What if instead of using a Standard Action to Bull Rush you do it as part of a Charge?
6.a) Does this change any of the previous answers?
For reference:
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack. You can only bull rush an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Bull Rush feat, or a similar ability, initiating a bull rush provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.
An enemy being moved by a bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Bull Rush feat. You cannot bull rush a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle. If there is another creature in the way of your bull rush, you must immediately make a combat maneuver check to bull rush that creature. You take a –4 penalty on this check for each creature being pushed beyond the first. If you are successful, you can continue to push the creatures a distance equal to the lesser result. For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed the first 5 feet. If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet (since the first goblin will have moved a total of 15 feet).
If you have 30 feet moves and move 20 feet and bull rush, do you have 10 feet of movement left?
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Good idea with a new thread .
I will add a few more to your list:
7) Multiple Bullrush attacks as part of a full attack ex. using shield slam.
How much movement do you have to follow your target.?
8) Multiple Bullrush as part of a charge with pounce ex. using shield slam.
How much movement do you have to follow your target.?
If you have 30 feet moves and move 20 feet and bull rush, do you have 10 feet of movement left?
Yes. This is really the only time you would get "extra" movement using Bullrush... since normally, you cannot move, attack, and move again.
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1. If you use a Standard Action to Bull Rush your Target how far can you move with them?
1.a) What Actions do you have left in your round?
1. You can move 0ft-30ft, at your option, and CMB roll willing. For example, if you roll a 45 CMB vs. a 20 CMD, you've defeated the CMD by 25, so you can Move Them 5ft, 10ft, 15ft, 20ft, 25ft, or to a full 30ft if desired, and you can Move With Them any amount of this distance, if desired.
To clarify, you could move 0 ft and still move them 30ft (superman shove), you could move 15ft and shove them an additional 10ft for a total of 25ft Bull Rushed (american football offensive lineman shove + superman shove at the end), or you can move them 30ft and move a full 30ft with them (american football offensive lineman shove). And even though you defeated their CMD by 25, you could even just move them 5ft and move with them 5ft. How far you move the target and how far you actually move WITH the target are completely up to the Bull Rusher's option.
1a. You have a Move Action and a Swift Action left. You cannot take a 5ft step because you've already moved, and if you moved 30ft during the Bull Rush then your Move Action cannot be used to perform a Move though, but you could use your Move Action to draw/sheathe a weapon, or retrieve a stored item, or Cackle/Chant.
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2. What if you're staggered or in a Surprise Round?
If you only have a Standard action due to Surprise Round or Staggered, same as above (Q #1) except you don't have a Move Action to draw/sheathe a weapon. So you could Bull Rush the target 30ft and Move with them 30ft if desired (and CMB roll willing) and this "Bull Rush + 30ft Move w/ Target" would all be performed as 1 Standard Action.
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3. What if you move before Bull Rushing the target?
If you Move before the Bull Rush, then that counts as your Move Action. You can execute the Bull Rush as a Standard once you've reached the target, and you would have any available movement left to move with the target of your Bull Rush that you didn't use while performing your Move Action.
To clarify, if you moved 10ft to reach your target as a Move Action, and then performed your Standard to Bull Rush, you would have 20ft of available movement to move with your target as you Bull Rush them.
Example: You move towards your target 5ft (this does not count as a 5ft step) and reach the target. This counts as your Move Action for the round. You perform a Standard action to Bull Rush and roll a 50CMB vs. 15CMD, so you can Bull Rush the target 5 + 35ft = 40 total feet. But you only have 25ft of available movement left. So you could move with the target 25ft and then superman shove them an additional 15ft, for a total of 40ft Bull Rush. Your Standard Action and Move Action are complete, and you have a Swift Action that you can perform. You cannot perform a 5ft step because you moved during the round.
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4. What if you use a Move Action that isn't movement before Bull Rushing the target?
If you use a Move Action to Draw a Weapon and then you use your Standard to Bull Rush the target 30ft and choose to move with him 30ft, this is kosher, because you had 30ft of available movement that round.
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5. What if you 5-Foot-Step before Bull Rushing your opponent?
If you 5ft Step before Bull Rushing, this is kosher, and you can Bull rush your opponent 30ft, except you cannot move with them because you performed a 5ft Step. This would essentially be a "superman shove" style of Bull Rush 30ft while you move with the target 0ft.
If you perform a 5ft step and then Bull Rush your target 30ft (and you move 0ft with the target), then you would still have a Move Action that could be used to Draw/Sheathe a Weapon, Retrieve Stored Items, or Cackle/Chant, but you could not use this Move Action to Move because you already used a 5ft step.
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6. What if instead of using a Standard Action to Bull Rush you do it as part of a Charge?
6.a) Does this change any of the previous answers?
This question is slightly ambiguous only because you can perform a Charge as a Full Round, or you can Charge as Standard Action if you're limited to Standard Actions only due to Surprise/Stagger. So I'll do an answer for both.
Full Round Action Charge: You can move up to double your speed during a charge and perform a Bull Rush. Technically, your Available Movement would be 60ft, so this is a point of contention/debate as to whether you would have 60ft or 30ft of "available movement" for Bull Rushing during a charge. Expect Table Variance on this one. Personally, I find that allowing 60ft for your "available movement" clears up a lot of arguing at the table, but you'd also be perfectly within the right to allow 30ft only, because as far as I know, there isn't a hard rule or example given in the rules, errata, or FAQ's that promote either ruling.
Standard Action Charge: You can move up to 1x your movement speed during a charge and perform a Bull Rush and would have a total available movement of 30ft to move before and move with the target of your Bull Rush. For example, you charge the target 20ft away, and you would have 10ft of available movement left to move with the target of your bull rush, but if you defeat the CMD by 30, you could move with them 10ft and superman shove them an additional 25ft.
Good idea with a new thread .
I will add a few more to your list:
7) Multiple Bullrush attacks as part of a full attack ex. using shield slam.
How much movement do you have to follow your target.?8) Multiple Bullrush as part of a charge with pounce ex. using shield slam.
How much movement do you have to follow your target.?
Honestly, I don't think you can choose how far you push the target, should you decide you follow them. Once you decide to follow them, the choice of how far you go is made by thr CMB check or your total movement "available", whichever comes first...
You haven't moved this round, nor done anything that requires the use of a Move action... you have 30 feet of movement "available". You Bullrush an adjacent enemy and move with them, up to and including, 30' in a straight line pushing the enemy.
You have no more movement "available" to do anything else... the feat doesn't say you can voluntarily choose to stop moving with the target once you have chosen to do so. So you can't.
Once you choose to move with the target of your successful Bullrush, you expend all further "available" movement pushing said target to the extent of your available movement or the amount allowed by the CMB check (whichever is shortest/comes first).
Charging doubles the movement "available" to you, but it doesn't allow you to stop short of following the targey of a successful Bullrush. Nothing says it allows you to do that. Once you commit to following them, you push them until you cannot move any further, or to the maximum allowed distance of the CMB check.
Where is anyone getting that you can do anything other than follow the target until your movement has expired? How are people getting extra Bullrush attacks, even with Pounce?
What? There happens to be another enemy exactly where to push the first target? You still have movement but had to stop because a sissy CMB check only allowed you to push the person a short distance?
And in the case of a full attack with Shield Slam, full attacks have zero "available" movement normally. So you can't move with any of them more than a 5 foot step. That is the movement "available" when full attacking, outisde of special full round attacks like charge and pounce.
7) Multiple Bullrush attacks as part of a full attack ex. using shield slam.
How much movement do you have to follow your target.?
If you make a Shield Bash with the Shield Slam feat, you can Bull Rush for free using your attack roll as your CMB check. You're treated as Two Weapon Fighting and your shield is treated as a 1-handed weapon during this time, except you retain your Shield AC bonus due to Imp Shield Bash.
Shield Slam (Combat)
In the right position, your shield can be used to send opponents flying.
Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance. You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.
Hypothetical Multiple Shield Slam Example:
Let's say that you have 7 attacks in the round due to Imp TWF + Haste + High BAB, and 3 of these 7 attacks can be shield bashes and you are a human with 30ft movement, so you have a total of 60ft due to Haste. You have a Longsword in your mainhand and a Large Wooden Shield in your offhand, and you are adjacent to an enemy (E1) who has a 20AC and a 25CMD. There is also a 2nd enemy (E2) 15ft (3 squares) behind your opponent who has a 25AC and 30CMD.
So it looks like this: ...PC.E1..(15ft)...E2...
For your first Mainhand weapon attack, you roll a 30 and defeat his 20AC. You roll damage for your Longsword.
For your 2nd Attack and 1st Shield Bash attempt, you roll a 35 to attack, so you successfully hit your target and cause damage per the Shield Bash. You also get to use the roll of 35 vs their 25CMD, and since you defeated the CMD by 10, you can move the target a total of 15ft if you desire. Instead of moving the target 15ft, you instead choose to move the target 10ft and also move with him 10ft.
So now it looks like this: .....PC.E1...E2...... and there is one square (5ft) between E1 and E2 and you are still adjacent to E1 because you moved 10ft with him, and you have 50ft of available movement.
For your 3rd Attack, with your Mainhand weapon, you roll a 21 and defeat his 20AC. You roll damage for your Longsword.
For your 4th Attack and 2nd Shield Bash attempt, you roll a 24 to attack, so you successfully hit your target and cause damage per the Shield Bash. You also get to use the roll of 24 vs their 25CMD, and since you did not defeat the CMD, you do not get to Bull Rush the target.
For your 5th Attack, with your Mainhand weapon, you roll a 39 and defeat his 20AC. You roll damage for your Longsword.
For your 6th Attack and 3rd Shield Bash attempt, you roll a 45 to attack, so you successfully hit your target and cause damage per the Shield Bash. You also get to use the roll of 45 vs. their 25CMD, and since you defeated the CMD by 20, you can move the target a total of 25ft if you desire. You choose to move the target 25ft this time, and run into the 2nd enemy after Bull Rushing your target 5ft. This provokes a CMB check vs E2 and is made at a -4 Penalty. You are not allowed to use the Attack Roll from Shield Slam as your Bull Rush CMB vs. this 2nd target, so you must make a new CMB check with the -4 penalty to see how far you can Bull Rush this 2nd target. With the -4 penalty, your Bull Rush CMB result is a 40, and defeat his 30CMD by 10, so you can move E2 a total of 15ft. You continue to move both targets 15ft more, except you've only moved your 1st target 20ft even though you first elected to move him 25ft. You have moved a total of 30ft between the two Bull Rushes and still have 30ft of available Movement, and you are still adjacent to E1. So now it looks like this: ......PC.E1.E2.....
For your 7th attack, with your Mainhand weapon, you roll a Natural 20 and confirm it. Your DM says: "E1 only has 4HP left, so how would you like this to look?"
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8) Multiple Bullrush as part of a charge with pounce ex. using shield slam.
How much movement do you have to follow your target.?
Same as the above example, except subtract any movement you made during the charge from your total available movement in the round.
Hypothetical Full Round Charge + Pounce + Multiple Shield Slam Example:
Let's say that you have 7 attacks in the round due to Imp TWF + Haste + High BAB, and 3 of these 7 attacks can be shield bashes and you are a human with 30ft movement, so you have a total of 60ft due to Haste, so you would have 120ft of available movement during a charge. You have a Longsword in your mainhand and a Large Wooden Shield in your offhand, and you are 30ft from an enemy (E1) who has a 20AC and a 25CMD. There is also a 2nd enemy (E2) 15ft (3 squares) behind your opponent who has a 25AC and 30CMD.
So it looks like this: ...PC......(30ft).......E1..(15ft)...E2...
You charge your target 30ft away. You now have 90ft of available movement left.
For your first Mainhand weapon attack, you roll a 30 and defeat his 20AC. You roll damage for your Longsword.
For your 2nd Attack and 1st Shield Bash attempt, you roll a 35 to attack, so you successfully hit your target and cause damage per the Shield Bash. You also get to use the roll of 35 vs their 25CMD, and since you defeated the CMD by 10, you can move the target a total of 15ft if you desire. Instead of moving the target 15ft, you instead choose to move the target 10ft and also move with him 10ft.
So now it looks like this: .....PC.E1...E2...... and there is one square (5ft) between E1 and E2 and you are still adjacent to E1 because you moved 10ft with him, and you have 80ft of available movement.
For your 3rd Attack, with your Mainhand weapon, you roll a 21 and defeat his 20AC. You roll damage for your Longsword.
For your 4th Attack and 2nd Shield Bash attempt, you roll a 24 to attack, so you successfully hit your target and cause damage per the Shield Bash. You also get to use the roll of 24 vs their 25CMD, and since you did not defeat the CMD, you do not get to Bull Rush the target.
For your 5th Attack, with your Mainhand weapon, you roll a 39 and defeat his 20AC. You roll damage for your Longsword.
For your 6th Attack and 3rd Shield Bash attempt, you roll a 45 to attack, so you successfully hit your target and cause damage per the Shield Bash. You also get to use the roll of 45 vs. their 25CMD, and since you defeated the CMD by 20, you can move the target a total of 25ft if you desire. You choose to move the target 25ft this time, and run into the 2nd enemy after Bull Rushing your target 5ft. This provokes a CMB check vs E2 and is made at a -4 Penalty. You are not allowed to use the Attack Roll from Shield Slam as your Bull Rush CMB vs. this 2nd target, so you must make a new CMB check with the -4 penalty to see how far you can Bull Rush this 2nd target. With the -4 penalty, your Bull Rush CMB result is a 40, and defeat his 30CMD by 10, so you can move E2 a total of 15ft. You continue to move both targets 15ft more, except you've only moved your 1st target 20ft even though you first elected to move him 25ft. You have moved a total of 60ft between the charge and the two Bull Rushes and still have 60ft of available Movement, and you are still adjacent to E1. So now it looks like this: ......PC.E1.E2.....
For your 7th attack, with your Mainhand weapon, you roll a Natural 20 and confirm it. Your DM says: "E1 only has 4HP left, so how would you like this to look?"
While a new thread is a good idea, the premise of this thread is too bloated. Asking 6+ questions will just flood the thread with walls of text.
The core of the schism is a simple question:
Does Bull Rush grant you movement, or do you have to spend actions to move with your target?
A practical example would be Quick Bull Rush as part of a full-attack. Can you replace your first attack, move 30 ft with the target, and still finish your full-attack?
A practical example would be Quick Bull Rush as part of a full-attack. Can you replace your first attack, move 30 ft with the target, and still finish your full-attack?
No, but only because you can’t replace an attack with a bullrush… only certain combat maneuvers can be made in place of an attack… now if you have an ability that allows you to make a bullrush as part of a full attack (shield bash, giant fist gauntlets, or otherwise) then… yes, you absolutely could.
With the exception of Ryze Kuja's posts throughout the years, I haven't been able to find a thread where the assumption was that Bull Rush grants you movement beyond what you pay for. The opposite interpretation is common, though.
Thread #1, Thread #2, Thread #3.
Here are three threads where the posters are in agreement that Quick Bull Rush is incompatible with a full-attack if you choose to move with the target beyond what is possible with a 5-ft step (as you then lack the available movement). The same sentiment is found on reddit if that's something you care for.
It's an appeal to majority, I know. I'd just like those who hold this opposite view to entertain the thought that most people don't share their interpretation, and that you are in the minority. That maybe, if the widespread interpretation that has been used for a decade differs from your own, that you might be wrong.
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If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.
"You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so."
This is a requirement. You can't move with the target if you don't have the available movement. Nowhere is it stated that you are given any extra movement by performing this maneuver. If you do not have any available movement, such as from a charge or by spending a move action to move, you can't follow your target.
"Available movement" does not refer to a pool of movement which you can draw from to move with the target of Bull Rush maneuvers. And it doesn't specify that this pool is equal to your base speed. Or that it replenishes every round instead of every maneuver. None of these statements are implied or inferred.
It only feels rational because you're inventing a system to conform to the situation. To justify your belief in how Bull Rush is supposed to work. It's an extreme waste of time to bring up hypothetical scenarios, if you're inventing the system and its exceptions as you go. It can't ever be proven wrong this way because nothing is written down.
I didn't include Bull Rushing as part of a full attack because normally you can't do that. I figured we'd get the base mechanics down before adding in complicated things.
I asked 6 questions, but they're all variations on "how faw can you move with your target". The 6 questions just give different circumstances for the Bull Rush attempt. I probably could have made that clearer in my post though, so sorry about that.
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With the exception of Ryze Kuja's posts throughout the years, I haven't been able to find a thread where the assumption was that Bull Rush grants you movement beyond what you pay for. The opposite interpretation is common, though.
For the last time my dude, Bull Rush does not "Grant" you extra movement out of nowhere, you spend whatever movement made while Bull Rushing from the available movement from what would normally be allowed by your Move Action. Please, stop putting words in my mouth.
Does Bull Rush grant you movement, or do you have to spend actions to move with your target?
The answer is neither. It does not "grant" you movement nor do you have to spend extra actions, the movement is inherent in the use of the Standard Action to perform it.
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Bull Rush
You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so.
Straightforward, the Bull Rush action doesn't give you extra movement.
It is unclear if you can "sped" movement from the action you did take before the Bull rush.I would allow it during a charge, as the movement and the Bull rush are part of the same action, but I wouldn't allow it when moving and then performing a Bull rush as a standard action, as the move and the Bull rush are separated actions.
The Shield slam feat Ryze Kuja cite is even more clear and restrictive:
Shield Slam (Combat)
In the right position, your shield can be used to send opponents flying.
Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance. You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.
You need to be able to take a 5' step or spend an action to move. Succeding in the Bull rush maneuver doesn't give you any extra movement and you can't use movement "left over" from the movement you did before the Shield Slam.
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For the last time my dude, Bull Rush does not "Grant" you extra movement out of nowhere, you spend whatever movement made while Bull Rushing from the available movement from what would normally be allowed by your Move Action. Please, stop putting words in my mouth.With the exception of Ryze Kuja's posts throughout the years, I haven't been able to find a thread where the assumption was that Bull Rush grants you movement beyond what you pay for. The opposite interpretation is common, though.
Do you have a source for that?
Shield Slam says exactly the opposite.The normal movement rules if you are using Bull rush as a standard action don't support it too, as the move part of the action has already ended.
The only possible exception is a charge, and even that requires some lenience on the GM part.
For the last time my dude, Bull Rush does not "Grant" you extra movement out of nowhere, you spend whatever movement made while Bull Rushing from the available movement from what would normally be allowed by your Move Action. Please, stop putting words in my mouth.With the exception of Ryze Kuja's posts throughout the years, I haven't been able to find a thread where the assumption was that Bull Rush grants you movement beyond what you pay for. The opposite interpretation is common, though.
Do you have a source for that?
Shield Slam says exactly the opposite.
The normal movement rules if you are using Bull rush as a standard action don't support it too, as the move part of the action has already ended.The only possible exception is a charge, and even that requires some lenience on the GM part.
Before I answer that, let me ask you this: If you're a Human with 30ft move speed and you're Staggered, can you perform a Bull Rush on an adjacent opponent as a Standard Action and move with the target 30ft (CMB roll willing)? Or can you move 0ft? Or can you move 5ft?
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If you're a Human with 30ft move speed and you're Staggered, can you perform a Bull Rush on an adjacent opponent as a Standard Action and move with the target 30ft (CMB roll willing)? Or can you move 0ft? Or can you move 5ft?For the last time my dude, Bull Rush does not "Grant" you extra movement out of nowhere, you spend whatever movement made while Bull Rushing from the available movement from what would normally be allowed by your Move Action. Please, stop putting words in my mouth.With the exception of Ryze Kuja's posts throughout the years, I haven't been able to find a thread where the assumption was that Bull Rush grants you movement beyond what you pay for. The opposite interpretation is common, though.
Do you have a source for that?
Shield Slam says exactly the opposite.
The normal movement rules if you are using Bull rush as a standard action don't support it too, as the move part of the action has already ended.The only possible exception is a charge, and even that requires some lenience on the GM part.
Bull Rush
You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so.
Option 1: you take a standard action and Bull rush an adjacent enemy, then you can take a 5' step following the target. That uses up all your movement.
Option 2: you make a partial charge against a non-adjacent enemy, move at least 10' for the charge, bull rush the opponent. If the GM is lenient you can follow the target as far as the leftover movement from the charge permits.
The above quote says "available movement", not move action, so it is possible to argue that the charge leaves you some available movement, but normally you need other feats to be able to continue your movement after making a charge.
Option 1: you take a standard action and Bull rush an adjacent enemy, then you can take a 5' step following the target. That uses up all your movement.
Option 2: you make a partial charge against a non-adjacent enemy, move at least 10' for the charge, bull rush the opponent. If the GM is lenient you can follow the target as far as the leftover movement from the charge permits.
The above quote says "available movement", not move action, so it is possible to argue that the charge leaves you some available movement, but normally you need other feats to be able to continue your movement after making a charge.
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack. You can only bull rush an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Bull Rush feat, or a similar ability, initiating a bull rush provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.
An enemy being moved by a bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Bull Rush feat. You cannot bull rush a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle. If there is another creature in the way of your bull rush, you must immediately make a combat maneuver check to bull rush that creature. You take a –4 penalty on this check for each creature being pushed beyond the first. If you are successful, you can continue to push the creatures a distance equal to the lesser result. For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed the first 5 feet. If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet (since the first goblin will have moved a total of 15 feet).
Can you please explain how all of this above bolded example with the two goblins being bull rushed 15ft is performed as a Standard Action then?
I'm genuinely curious where everyone thinks the "available movement" comes from.
Like, on all sides of this argument, what makes people think the available movement comes from a separate move action? Or from a 5-foot-step? Or from remaining movement unused during your previous move action? Or movement un-spent as part of a charge? Or from the Bull Rush action itself?
I'm curious because the Bull Rush action never says, so anyone who has an opinion this (including myself) is extrapolating unwritten information from the text.
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If there is another creature in the way of your bull rush, you must immediately make a combat maneuver check to bull rush that creature. You take a –4 penalty on this check for each creature being pushed beyond the first. If you are successful, you can continue to push the creatures a distance equal to the lesser result. For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed the first 5 feet. If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet (since the first goblin will have moved a total of 15 feet).Can you please explain how all of this above bolded example with the two goblins being bull rushed 15ft is performed as a Standard Action then?
The example doesn't speak at all about the fighter moving. It speaks about the goblin moving with the moment imparted by the bull rush, impacting on the other goblin, and the fighter making a new check to see if the second goblin mas moved too or instead it was capable to stay his ground and stopping his companion.
It is like playing billard, you hit a ball with your cue, the ball move, and hit another ball, depending on the strength of the hit and the angle the second ball moves or the first ball is stopped. But your cue is still in your hand and don't follow the ball.
You simply misread the rule. You can move after the Bull rush, but you aren't taking new Bull rush actions.
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I'm genuinely curious where everyone thinks the "available movement" comes from.
Like, on all sides of this argument, what makes people think the available movement comes from a separate move action? Or from a 5-foot-step? Or from remaining movement unused during your previous move action? Or movement un-spent as part of a charge? Or from the Bull Rush action itself?
I'm curious because the Bull Rush action never says, so anyone who has an opinion this (including myself) is extrapolating unwritten information from the text.
Bull Rush
You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so.
You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.
Shield slam clarifies it, but the text of Bull rush is pretty clear: you need to have the movement, so a 5' step or a move action.
You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.Shield slam clarifies it, but the text of Bull rush is pretty clear: you need to have the movement, so a 5' step or a move action.
Except that Shield Slam is not the same as Bull Rush. It clarifies how Shield Slam works, not how Bull Rush works.
It' a good example of how it might work, and if you're using it as a reference to try to work out RAI that's fine, but it's not RAW.
Personally when I looked I checked the DRAG combat maneuver since it's almost identical to Bull Rush, including the language about "movement available".
I'm curious because the Bull Rush action never says, so anyone who has an opinion this (including myself) is extrapolating unwritten information from the text.
The issue with saying "both sides are equal" is that the premise of the two views are wildly different.
Both of us know that you need an "action with inherent movement" to move. But I don't need to extrapolate any unwritten information from the text to understand that Bull Rush requires available movement if you want to follow.
Since the term (available movement) isn't defined anywhere in the rules, the logical conclusion is that it doesn't refer to a new concept. That it, plain as day, refers to having movement available to move. Just as is written.
Ryze Kuja has, and forgive me if you feel I'm misrepresenting you here, multiple times said the following statement (paraphrased):
"A normal human that Bull Rushes and follows an enemy 30 ft still has their move action. They can't use it for movement, but for any other action without inherent movement. Because they have used up their per-round amount of allowed available movement which is equal to your base speed."
Compared to simply going "oh okay, so I need movement to follow. And you normally gain movement by spending actions. So I need to spend actions to move with the target".
Do you not feel there is a huge different in the amount of, in your words, unwritten information you have to extrapolate from a single sentence to come to those conclusions?
Personally when I looked I checked the DRAG combat maneuver since it's almost identical to Bull Rush, including the language about "movement available".
Comparing Bull Rush to Drag should just make you more skeptical.
"If your attack is successful, both you and your target are moved 5 feet back, with your opponent occupying your original space and you in the space behind that in a straight line. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD, you can drag the target back an additional 5 feet. You must be able to move with the target to perform this maneuver. If you do not have enough movement, the drag goes to the maximum amount of movement available to you and ends."
Bull Rush uses the term "available movement". Drag uses the term "movement available to you". This implies that "Available Movement" isn't a specific term referring to an exception of the rules encompassing a system of per-round replenishing inherent movement specific to maneuvers. This implies that it's just plain English.
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You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.Shield slam clarifies it, but the text of Bull rush is pretty clear: you need to have the movement, so a 5' step or a move action.Except that Shield Slam is not the same as Bull Rush. It clarifies how Shield Slam works, not how Bull Rush works.
It' a good example of how it might work, and if you're using it as a reference to try to work out RAI that's fine, but it's not RAW.
Personally when I looked I checked the DRAG combat maneuver since it's almost identical to Bull Rush, including the language about "movement available".
If you do not have enough movement, the drag goes to the maximum amount of movement available to you and ends.
And we are still in the same place. It doesn't add anything.
So we should look at how you get available movement:
1) 5' step;
2) move action:
3) full-round action that allows you to move.
4) a way to move as a swift or immediate action.
1) you can do it only once in the turn, either before on after the Bull rush.
2) you can take a move action, either before on after the Bull rush action. If done before the Bull rush, the move action ends when you start the standard action Bull rush. Without other abilities, it doesn't carry over. So no leftover movement.
If you move after the Bull rush, you have whatever you get by spending a move action.
3) Full round action:
- Charge: normally you need a specific ability to move after you have attacked. Without it, your move ends when you attack.
- Spring attack: it allows only a melee attack not a combat maneuver, not applicable.
- Fly-by attack: it allows a standard action in the middle of the move, so it allows moving, Bull rushing, and moving again.
4) Quick Runner's Shirt. You can activate it after performing the Bull rush.
From that base you can derive how it works for other abilities.
The example doesn't speak at all about the fighter moving.
he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet.
I'm 100% positive he's not "continuing to push" these goblins with his mind. He's physically pushing the goblin into another goblin and then continuing to push them an additional 10ft.
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The example doesn't speak at all about the fighter moving.
he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet.
I'm 100% positive he's not "continuing to push" these goblins with his mind. He's physically pushing the goblin into another goblin and then continuing to push them an additional 10ft.
Take a ball.
Throw it at another ball.The second ball is pushed by your throw, but you aren't there pushing it.
Ok here's my reasoning:
STANDARD ACTION BULL RUSH:
Any movement taken during a Bull Rush is a part of that standard action. Any move actions you take before or after the Bull Rush are NOT a part of the standard action, and therefore are NOT a part of the Bull Rush. They have no relevance here.
A 5 foot step DOES have relevance because if you 5 foot step you can't make other movement during the round, which would include movement as part of a Bull Rush.
So the "available movement" should either be inherent to the Bull Rush or it should be zero .
BULL RUSH AS A CHARGE:
This one seems simpler. Your available movement is the distance you can charge. Our 30 speed Human can charge 60, so they could move with their target up to the end of their charge movement maximum.
I assume we're actually all in agreement on this one ... let me know if anyone disagrees
BULL RUSH AS PART OF A FULL ATTACK:
The only movement you can make as part of a Full Attack is a 5 foot step. So the most you could follow your Bull Rushed target is 5 feet. There are ways around this , but the usual assumption would be only a 5 foot step.
Have I made any serious mistakes there?
The example doesn't speak at all about the fighter moving.
he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet.
I'm 100% positive he's not "continuing to push" these goblins with his mind. He's physically pushing the goblin into another goblin and then continuing to push them an additional 10ft.
Take a ball.
Throw it at another ball.
The second ball is pushed by your throw, but you aren't there pushing it.
Do you "continue to push" balls into other balls like this.... often?
The only reason I bring it up is because that's a really weird clause of words to describe what you're talking about, especially because they were just saying "If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so." in the previous paragraph.
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STANDARD ACTION BULL RUSH:
Any movement taken during a Bull Rush is a part of that standard action. Any move actions you take before or after the Bull Rush are NOT a part of the standard action, and therefore are NOT a part of the Bull Rush. They have no relevance here.
A 5 foot step DOES have relevance because if you 5 foot step you can't make other movement during the round, which would include movement as part of a Bull Rush.
So the "available movement" should either be inherent to the Bull Rush or it should be zero .
Without any rule that says that Bull rush has an inherent movement allowance, and it being a standard action, you are inventing something from nothing.
What standard action has inherent movement in it?
Partial charge. And it has plenty of limitations and specific rules.
At this time I don't recall any other example from the general rules.
Do you think that the Devs would have introduced an exception without explaining how it work?
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The example doesn't speak at all about the fighter moving.
he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet.
I'm 100% positive he's not "continuing to push" these goblins with his mind. He's physically pushing the goblin into another goblin and then continuing to push them an additional 10ft.
Take a ball.
Throw it at another ball.
The second ball is pushed by your throw, but you aren't there pushing it.Do you "continue to push" balls into other balls like this.... often?
The only reason I bring it up is because that's a really weird clause of words to describe what you're talking about, especially because they were just saying "If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so." in the previous paragraph.
And you are translating "you must have the available movement to do so" as "you get the movement to do so".
But it doesn't say so.
The example doesn't speak at all about the fighter moving.
he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet.
I'm 100% positive he's not "continuing to push" these goblins with his mind. He's physically pushing the goblin into another goblin and then continuing to push them an additional 10ft.
Take a ball.
Throw it at another ball.
The second ball is pushed by your throw, but you aren't there pushing it.Do you "continue to push" balls into other balls like this.... often?
The only reason I bring it up is because that's a really weird clause of words to describe what you're talking about, especially because they were just saying "If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so." in the previous paragraph.
And you are translating "you must have the available movement to do so" as "you get the movement to do so".
But it doesn't say so.
Do any of your players get the feats Shield Slam, Quick Bull Rush, or Bull Rush Strike or are these feats generally accepted to be completely worthless at your table?
Drag
You can attempt to drag a foe as a standard action. You can only drag an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. The aim of this maneuver is to drag a foe in a straight line behind you without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Drag feat or a similar ability, initiating a drag provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack is successful, both you and your target are moved 5 feet back, with your opponent occupying your original space and you in the space behind that in a straight line. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD, you can drag the target back an additional 5 feet. You must be able to move with the target to perform this maneuver. If you do not have enough movement, the drag goes to the maximum amount of movement available to you and ends.
An enemy being moved by a drag does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Drag feat. You cannot move a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle. If there is another creature in the way of your movement, the drag ends adjacent to that creature.
So what in the absolute heck does all this mumbo jumbo mean!? Maximum amount of movement available!? Both you and your target are moved 5 feet back and for every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD, you can drag the target back an additional 5 feet!?! Whats in the heckins!?
Sure sounds to me like you can only move 0 feet just like Bull Rush!
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Without any rule that says that Bull rush has an inherent movement allowance, and it being a standard action, you are inventing something from nothing.
Yes I am, but I would prhase it differently ...
To quote a great ... Person There are 2 types of people in this world:
1. Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data ...
What standard action has inherent movement in it?
... If your attack is successful, both you and your target are moved 5 feet back ...
... For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD, you can drag the target back an additional 5 feet.
This is why I brought up Drag earlier. Drag also has unclear language about "available movement", but is much clearer about the fact that you move as part of the Drag maneuver .
For a combat manuever that's generally so crap I've had to combine it with Drag and Reposition as well as get rid of provoking attacks of opportunity for trying it just to get people to maybe want to try it once in a while and they still barely do, this is one heated conversation.
It is weird that a standard action has references to movement within itself. That's already confusing.
But then all this talk about "available movement". What movement do you have available? I mean, it's not like you have a pool of X feet that you can use for this or that; you take an action that allows you to move, and your movement speed sets the limits on how far you can go with that action. Nothing in the text of a Bull Rush explicitly says otherwise.
Which would mean you can only move with your opponent if you start the turn threatening them or you make the Bull Rush as part of a charge, normally?
Also, I seem to remember that in 3rd, you could either shove your opponent back 5ft or you could move with them and shove them 5ft+5ft/5 you beat them on the Bull Rush attempt.
But in Pathfinder, you can stand your ground and just send dudes flying. Which is kind of funny. Now I want to build a Bull Rush character that beats people's CMD by 50 and shoves them right off the map or some such nonsense.
Wouldn't that just be great if Wonderstell agreed that you could Drag and move with an opponent 10ft+ but you could only Bull Rush and move with an opponent 5ft and then rationalized these different judgments with nothing logical whatsoever simply because he doesn't want to have to admit that he's been using Bull Rush wrong for 10 years. That'd be fantastic.
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heres my take
In regards to a bullrush not done on a charge, and without actions that grant movement, you do not have movement to perform. So if you dont have a move action or a 5ft step to take, you cant move with them.
on a charge you should have any remaining movement from that charge.
Bullrush by its self does not grant any movement, but presents an opportunity to use any remaining movement. Taking a move action or a 5ft step grants movement, and the bull rush provides an opportunity to use it.
if you walk 10 ft and push somebody you would not have remaining movement. But if you bullrushed, you would. If you full attack, you can still take a 5ft step and continue attacking an opponent in reach.
I tend to use Shield Slam to knock opponents away when fighting multiple, so they potentially cant full attack in retaliation
heres my take
In regards to a bullrush not done on a charge, and without actions that grant movement, you do not have movement to perform. So if you dont have a move action or a 5ft step to take, you cant move with them.
on a charge you should have any remaining movement from that charge.
Bullrush by its self does not grant any movement, but present san opportunity to use any remaining movement. Taking a move action or a 5ft step grants movement, and the bull rush provides an opportunity to use it.
if you walk 10 ft and push somebody you would not have remaining movement. But if you bullrushed, you would. If you full attack, you can still take a 5ft step and continue attacking an opponent in reach.
I tend to use Shield Slam to knock opponents away when fighting multiple, so they potentially cant full attack in retaliation
How far can you Drag someone in 1 Standard Action if you're Staggered or it's a Surprise Round?
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How far can you Drag someone in 1 Standard Action if you're Staggered or it's a Surprise Round?heres my take
In regards to a bullrush not done on a charge, and without actions that grant movement, you do not have movement to perform. So if you dont have a move action or a 5ft step to take, you cant move with them.
on a charge you should have any remaining movement from that charge.
Bullrush by its self does not grant any movement, but present san opportunity to use any remaining movement. Taking a move action or a 5ft step grants movement, and the bull rush provides an opportunity to use it.
if you walk 10 ft and push somebody you would not have remaining movement. But if you bullrushed, you would. If you full attack, you can still take a 5ft step and continue attacking an opponent in reach.
I tend to use Shield Slam to knock opponents away when fighting multiple, so they potentially cant full attack in retaliation
Apples to oranges.
im not comparing fruit.
How far can you Drag someone in 1 Standard Action if you're Staggered or it's a Surprise Round?heres my take
In regards to a bullrush not done on a charge, and without actions that grant movement, you do not have movement to perform. So if you dont have a move action or a 5ft step to take, you cant move with them.
on a charge you should have any remaining movement from that charge.
Bullrush by its self does not grant any movement, but present san opportunity to use any remaining movement. Taking a move action or a 5ft step grants movement, and the bull rush provides an opportunity to use it.
if you walk 10 ft and push somebody you would not have remaining movement. But if you bullrushed, you would. If you full attack, you can still take a 5ft step and continue attacking an opponent in reach.
I tend to use Shield Slam to knock opponents away when fighting multiple, so they potentially cant full attack in retaliation
Apples to oranges.
im not comparing fruit.
Why are they different? Bull Rush and Drag are worded almost the exact same, the only difference between them is that you're forced to move with the target while Dragging and you're going backward instead of forward.
@MrCharisma
I completely agree on the Charge and Full Attack positions, which I feel are the most important.
Ok, well that gets those two out of the way.
I have a pitch to put to you all as to why it's worded the way it is, but it'll take some writing and it's 4am here , and I should sleep.
I'll try to post it tomorrow.
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If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.
vs
If your attack is successful, both you and your target are moved 5 feet back, with your opponent occupying your original space and you in the space behind that in a straight line. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD, you can drag the target back an additional 5 feet. You must be able to move with the target to perform this maneuver. If you do not have enough movement, the drag goes to the maximum amount of movement available to you and ends.
bullrush is conditional movement with requirements. it might let you move.
drag doesnt movement isnt optional. it forces you to move
If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.
vs
If your attack is successful, both you and your target are moved 5 feet back, with your opponent occupying your original space and you in the space behind that in a straight line. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD, you can drag the target back an additional 5 feet. You must be able to move with the target to perform this maneuver. If you do not have enough movement, the drag goes to the maximum amount of movement available to you and ends.
bullrush is conditional movement with requirements. it might let you move.
drag doesnt movement isnt optional. it forces you to move
I agree, Bull Rush is Optional Movement while Drag is forced movement.
How far could you Drag a target in 1 Standard Action if you're a Human with 30ft Move speed and you rolled a 50 Drag CMB vs their 10 CMD.
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If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.
vs
If your attack is successful, both you and your target are moved 5 feet back, with your opponent occupying your original space and you in the space behind that in a straight line. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD, you can drag the target back an additional 5 feet. You must be able to move with the target to perform this maneuver. If you do not have enough movement, the drag goes to the maximum amount of movement available to you and ends.
bullrush is conditional movement with requirements. it might let you move.
drag doesnt movement isnt optional. it forces you to move
I agree, Bull Rush is Optional Movement while Drag is forced movement.
How far could you Drag a target in 1 Standard Action if you're a Human with 30ft Move speed and you rolled a 50 Drag CMB vs their 10 CMD.
would the answer be different if it was a halfling in stoneplate armor with the 50 cmb vs someone with a 10 cmd?
Drag has no movement maximum by RAW, and Drag isnt what the thread is about
You're in a pickle right now. I'm sensing that you're evading the question about how far you could Drag someone as a Standard Action because you know it'll put a cannonball-sized hole in your argument about how far you could Bull Rush someone.