How does Bull Rush work? - Moving with the target.


Rules Questions

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Grand Lodge

MrCharisma wrote:
*Khan* wrote:

Hi Chell Raighn

Nice summery. But I still have a problem with the charge rules:

From the charge rules:
“You must move before your attack, not after.”
Does this prevent you from following your target after af succesfull bull rush or multiple bull rushes (pounce/pummeling charge)?

This would clearly be a case of specific trumps general.

(Forget Pounce or Pummeling Charge, is anyone actually arguing this that you can't follow your target on a chargeing Bull Rush? That one seems like the easiest one to agree on. Even if the "move with your target" rules are completely redundant for other options, the Charge Bull Rush is the one case where you DO have "movement available".)

Okay makes sense with charge + Bull rush, but I would rather not forget pounce or Pummeling Charge as those are examples where you want to follow your target to hit them again.

After the first bullrush and you choose to move to follow your target you are violating the charge rules and this stops your pounce/Pummeling charge?


Ride by Attack also has a specific rule that allows for a Charge Attack Move After. So moving after a charge isn't infeasible as long as you have specific rules that support that movement.


Oh I see.

I guess it depends which rule is more "specific".

.y guess would be that the "Charge" rules are the most "general", thrn it would go "Bull Rush", and then "Pounce"/"Pummeling-Charge" would be the most specific.

As to how they all interact ... I really don't have the energy to look into it all at the moment =P


Holy crap.


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The general rule for charge prevents movement after the attack, however the specific rule for bull rush allows for it again. Keep in mind, the bull rush is performed “as part of a charge” meaning the bull rush completes before the charge does from a rules standpoint. This is important to note as it informs as to how they would interact with any method of full attacking on a charge. If you pounced and performed multiple bull rushes as part of your pounce, you could still follow on each one up to your maximum charge distance. It’s simply specific trumps general.

General rule: you move before your attack on a charge. You make one attack as part of a charge.
Specific rule: you may move with the target of your bull rush. You may bull rush as part of a charge (note this replaces the attack on a charge normally)
Specific rule: pounce is a special form of charge in which you may perform a full attack (pummeling charge has a similar specific rule)

Ergo, my mention of such abilities as exceptions in my breakdown last night.

Liberty's Edge

Chell Raighn wrote:

The general rule for charge prevents movement after the attack, however the specific rule for bull rush allows for it again. Keep in mind, the bull rush is performed “as part of a charge” meaning the bull rush completes before the charge does from a rules standpoint. This is important to note as it informs as to how they would interact with any method of full attacking on a charge. If you pounced and performed multiple bull rushes as part of your pounce, you could still follow on each one up to your maximum charge distance. It’s simply specific trumps general.

General rule: you move before your attack on a charge. You make one attack as part of a charge.
Specific rule: you may move with the target of your bull rush. You may bull rush as part of a charge (note this replaces the attack on a charge normally)
Specific rule: pounce is a special form of charge in which you may perform a full attack (pummeling charge has a similar specific rule)

Ergo, my mention of such abilities as exceptions in my breakdown last night.

An interesting analysis and, as I said, I would allow it with a charge.

But to say that it is RAw you need a way more explicit text.
The specific rule says that you can move with your available movement, but never specifies what is that available movement.
Other abilities that give the ability to move, perform some kind of attack, and move again are very clear on how far you can move and where the movement comes from.


@MrCharisma, @Chell Raighn

I have one last contention I'd like your opinion on. As you both now agree that you can't move more than 5 ft if you Drag or Bull Rush as part of a normal full-attack, does this affect your previous stances on a staggered character performing a Bull Rush?

The Boggart performing a full-attack has no actions left it can use on movement except the 5-ft step. We can say that its potential for movement is gone.

A staggered character that uses its standard action to Bull Rush (not a partial charge) has no actions left it could use on movement. Its potential is gone. This seems to be effectively the same as making a full-attack in regards to movement available, and that you would not be able to follow the target of your Bull Rush beyond 5 ft if you are staggered.


Wonderstell wrote:

@MrCharisma, @Chell Raighn

I have one last contention I'd like your opinion on. As you both now agree that you can't move more than 5 ft if you Drag or Bull Rush as part of a normal full-attack, does this affect your previous stances on a staggered character performing a Bull Rush?

The Boggart performing a full-attack has no actions left it can use on movement except the 5-ft step. We can say that its potential for movement is gone.

A staggered character that uses its standard action to Bull Rush (not a partial charge) has no actions left it could use on movement. Its potential is gone. This seems to be effectively the same as making a full-attack in regards to movement available, and that you would not be able to follow the target of your Bull Rush beyond 5 ft if you are staggered.

You know… I never did give my view as to how it interacts with staggered… mainly because I genuinely don’t know… I stand by my stance that under normal conditions a standard action bull rush allows you to follow up to your full movement speed even if you don’t use a move action to move, as long as you don’t take a 5ft step… as for staggered… I think I’d have to say you can follow only 5ft… using the rules for shield slam as a basis since you wouldn’t be “able to spend an action to move”… which I will reiterate, I do NOT read “able to” as “required to”… you are able to so long as the move action is available to take even if you choose to spend it on something else… while staggered however you don’t have the two separate actions, so if you choose standard action you are not “able to spend a move action” thus your movement is restricted to 5ft.


I just asked James Jacobs <---- Click here for original source

So there we have it directly from James Jacobs, you are allowed to move up to your Movement Speed during the Standard Action of a Bull Rush.

James Jacobs wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:


In 1E, if you're a human with 30ft movement speed and you perform a Bull Rush as a Standard Action and somehow defeat their CMB by 30, are you allowed to move with the target up to 30ft?

Only if you have that much movement to keep up. Bull rush doesn't grant bonus movement.

Core Rulebook page 199 wrote:
...You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so...
James Jacobs wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Right, I agree Bull Rush doesn't grant bonus movement, but rather uses up your "available movement", so one more clarifying question if you don't mind: if you haven't used a Move Action or a 5ft step yet, your "available movement" would be considered 30ft for that Bull Rush as a Standard, or even 40ft for a Barbarian (CMB roll willing), if I understand that correctly?
Whatever your speed is is what your available movement is.

^---- and now we can finally put this debate to rest too. Available Movement = Movement Speed.


Ryze Kuja wrote:
So there we have it directly from James Jacobs, you are allowed to move up to your Movement Speed during the Standard Action of a Bull Rush.

He literally said that it doesn't grant bonus movement. A sentiment we have repeated multiple times to you. He disagreed with your interpretation.

He answered your follow-up question with the assumption that you use your move action for the movement. Which you did imply by stating that "I agree Bull Rush doesn't grant bonus movement".
Any reasonable person would assume that's what you meant.

Ask him to clarify if you want, but it's incredibly obvious JJ thinks you're wrong.


No, he agreed with me. Wonderstell, I have said this multiple times that Bull Rush doesn't grant you extra movement out of thin air, there is no separate pool of movement, there is no "granting" of extra movement of any kind, so stop it. It DOES NOT grant you bonus movement; when you perform a Bull Rush as a Standard Action you ARE ALLOWED TO MOVE and any movement you make during this Standard Action is "pulled" or "subtracted" from your "available movement" from that round. So if your movement speed is 30ft and you haven't 5ft stepped or used a Move Action or performed any movement yet, then you have 30ft of available movement for the Bull Rush in question. And, if you roll your CMB high enough, you perform all that 30ft movement as a Standard Action.

I literally asked him:

if you haven't used a Move Action or a 5ft step yet, your "available movement" would be considered 30ft for that Bull Rush as a Standard, or even 40ft for a Barbarian (CMB roll willing), if I understand that correctly?

He responded:

Whatever your speed is is what your available movement is.


If that's how you're interpreting it, then what, in your opinion, would "bonus movement" be?


There is no bonus movement.


Adding specific rules from feats or class abilities is only going to muddy the waters unless they include the text that explains what "normal" is without the feat/ability.

Just good old Bull Rush as a standard action, before any movement or other move actions, allows you to follow up to and including your full movement speed.

Bull Rush as a standard action after any movememt, but not other move actions, would allow you to follow up to your remaining/unused movement speed.

Bull Rush after a charge would allow you to follow up to your remaining/ununsed doubled movement speed.

Bull Rush after a 5' step or other move action cannot follow at all because there is zero "available" movement.

Bull Rush as part of a full attack cannot follow anyone because you do not normally have any "available" movement when you full attack.

Start adding Shield Slam or Pounce or Staggered or Rhino Charge or who-cares-what, and we aren't just talking about Bull Rush anymore. And we aren't ready to graduate to that level of debate, because we can't even agree on Bull Rush, alone in its most basic form. Lol.


VoodistMonk wrote:


Bull Rush as part of a full attack cannot follow anyone because you do not normally have any "available" movement when you full attack.

I would say that you still have an available movement of 30ft during a Full Attack, but you just don't have anything that is going to move you during a normal full attack.

Because if you start adding Shield Slam, Quick Bull Rush, and Bull Rush Strike into a Full Attack, these would give you the ability to move, and should allow you to use up "Available Movement". Instead of making a Bull Rush attempt as a Standard Action, you're now making that entire Bull Rush take the same time in the round as that 1 Attack (or as a Free Action from that 1 Attack).


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So since James Jacobs earlier answers were apparently too vague for several of you, I asked the question that we can’t seem to agree on…

James Jacobs wrote:
Chell Raighn wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Right, I agree Bull Rush doesn't grant bonus movement, but rather uses up your "available movement", so one more clarifying question if you don't mind: if you haven't used a Move Action or a 5ft step yet, your "available movement" would be considered 30ft for that Bull Rush as a Standard, or even 40ft for a Barbarian (CMB roll willing), if I understand that correctly?
Whatever your speed is is what your available movement is.

Just for absolute clarity sake, since a debate in another thread over this topic has been going in endless circles.

Are you required to use you’re move action to move in order to follow during a bull rush? Or can you standard action bull rush, follow your target as part of the bull rush, and still use your move action for another purpose?

Bull Rush is a standard action or part of a charge. If you're doing it as part of a charge, your movement is part of that. If you're doing it as a standard action, then you can move with your target as part of that standard action, as long as you have the available movement to do so. A separate move aciton doesn't even enter the picture.

If your speed is 30 feet, you can move up to 30 feet to follow your bull rushed victim. Doesn't matter if you have or haven't already moved 30 feet with a separate move action, since bull rush ONLY uses the standard action or your charge action.

Further questions for further clarification on this will likely just result in me being frustrated and suggesting your table switch to 2nd edition, where the action economy is easier to use in play.

I hope this answer helps a few folks resolve the question, but I really don't think it'll resolve any existing debates.

So there you have it… the movement is a part of the standard action to bull rush and does not care if you have or haven't used your move action. Your “available movement” is your speed. You do NOT need to spend any separate actions to move. It is all part of the same action… and apparently you still have 30ft of movement to follow with even if you did spend a move action to move… (which is contrary to how even I thought it worked)


I stand corrected.


Yeah wow, that was an answer which pretty much defied both explanations.

Especially the part that you don't deplete your available movement by moving beforehand, and that the Bull Rush doesn't deplete it either (if you choose to move after). Honestly, there's plenty of abilities which as written contradicts this answer.

Rather than solving the issue once and for all, it sounds like he's indirectly stating that GFG would allow you to Bull Rush up to your speed with every Bull Rush you attempt.


Not really rules related, but I think that has been answered... whether you agree with it, or not... JJ hath spoken.

Anyways, how often do people even use Bull Rush?

And if you do use it, how often do you actually move with the target?

I, personally, have only used it on a handful of monsters, and a few NPC's that happened to have Weapon Trick:Polearms and Improved Bull Rush... so they could do the adjacent maneuver trick. And obviously a reach weapon user will not want to move with the target. Lol. The only reason they had Improved Bull Rush was because it was required for Rhino Charge.


So the only thing that I didn't have right was that the Available Movement isn't taken away from the movement made with your Move Action and vice versa. They're actually independent of one another. I had thought that they were linked together.

My GFG Siegebreaker2/BrawlerX build works better than I thought.


It works even better than that.

We've all assumed that the "available movement" is depleted one way or the other. JJ just said it doesn't since your move action (and its movement) is completely independent from the standard action Bull Rush.
In other words. Every Bull Rush counts the movement independently. There's is no per-round limitation of movement.

So according to JJ your GFG build's maneuvers wouldn't ever be limited by your base speed. You won't need to count the total amount of movement with your Bull Rushes any longer.


Yep. Crazy good.


This answer seems wrong.

Bull rush my willing ally 30ft to within 10ft of a target, so he can 5ft step and full attack.. after which I can then move 30ft to provide my ally with a flank for whom he is about to full attack right after my turn is over.


Haha, yeah JJ pretty much went against the RAI of every single ability that interacts with available movement. It won't ever be an issue outside of charges (and only the first bull rush if you're pouncing) since people "usually" never beat the CMD by 30.

Obviously we can say that "JJ isn't a rules guy" and disregard it, but this is the closest thing we have to a designer statement. Everything else is just deductions we drew from ability descriptions.

So he just casually dropped that everyone and their mothers have been wrong about Bull Rush for a decade. Hilarious.


Hey, I am perfectly okay with anything that makes martials more mobile... allowing someone to Bull Rush 30', then move 30' is cool AF.

Apparently, a "pool" of movement is made available to you by your excessive CMB roll...


Tbh, that is ridiculous, now that I'm re-imagining this in a new light. I don't think JJ had GFG Siegebreaker2/Brawler11 w/ Boots of Speed[ and Pauldrons of the Bull in mind when he said all that.

Because now you have 120ft charge into Flurry: Unarmed Attack + 60ft Bull Rush + 10ft Overrun --> Unarmed Attack + 60ft Bull Rush + 10ft Overrun --> Unarmed Attack + 60ft Bull Rush + 10ft Overrun --> Unarmed Attack + 60ft Bull Rush + 10ft Overrun --> Unarmed Attack + 60ft Bull Rush + 10ft Overrun --> Unarmed Attack + 60ft Bull Rush + 10ft Overrun --> Unarmed Attack + 60ft Bull Rush + 10ft Overrun

^---- Those are maximum values, so CMB Willing. But w/e, this is absurd.

Dip a level in Barbarian to make it 160ft charge with 80ft bull rushes. There's no way someone moves this fast in 6 seconds even with Haste, I don't care what you rolled.

With a Permanent Fly enchantment, that's 90ft move speed per round so 180ft charges, this is Cloud's Omnislash every round.


I'm sure we can all see the absurdity of it...

I was just expecting an answer as to if spending any seperate actions to get the movement was required... never expected an answer that didn't just answer my question with the exact answer I had thought it was from the start... but to go on past answering my question to outright break the entire combat maneuver...

I'm perfectly happy with the conclusion that a seperate move action is not required to follow, and that your available movement is based on your speed... though I think myself and my group will stick to your available movement being depleted or extended by your choice of actions in the round... if you charge, you potentially extend your available movement, if you take an action to move you reduce it... getting up to your full speed in movement on ever potential bull rush is just absurd...

it's balanced just fine to have 30ft of movement available at the start of each round... using a charge doubles it, moving reduces it by however far you moved, and taking a 5ft step drops it to 0ft... every individual action that grants movement reduces it unless that action explicitly grants it's own well defined pool of movement... and as the whole course of this debate can attest, neither Bull Rush nor Drag have a "well defined pool of movement"...

going with the rules as JJ described on the otherhand... just opens up some extremely broken combat options... just imagine playing a Shield Champion Brawler and endlessly bullrushing targets around the battlefield and flying after your shield with each slam or toss...

Dark Archive

lol.

JJ will be the first one to tell you he's not a rules guy, but if that puts a stop to the madness that is this thread, i'll go along with it


Name Violation wrote:

lol.

JJ will be the first one to tell you he's not a rules guy, but if that puts a stop to the madness that is this thread, i'll go along with it

to be fair... he somewhat said that in his response to my question even...


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Chell Raighn wrote:

I'm sure we can all see the absurdity of it...

I was just expecting an answer as to if spending any seperate actions to get the movement was required... never expected an answer that didn't just answer my question with the exact answer I had thought it was from the start... but to go on past answering my question to outright break the entire combat maneuver...

I'm perfectly happy with the conclusion that a seperate move action is not required to follow, and that your available movement is based on your speed... though I think myself and my group will stick to your available movement being depleted or extended by your choice of actions in the round... if you charge, you potentially extend your available movement, if you take an action to move you reduce it... getting up to your full speed in movement on ever potential bull rush is just absurd...

it's balanced just fine to have 30ft of movement available at the start of each round... using a charge doubles it, moving reduces it by however far you moved, and taking a 5ft step drops it to 0ft... every individual action that grants movement reduces it unless that action explicitly grants it's own well defined pool of movement... and as the whole course of this debate can attest, neither Bull Rush nor Drag have a "well defined pool of movement"...

going with the rules as JJ described on the otherhand... just opens up some extremely broken combat options... just imagine playing a Shield Champion Brawler and endlessly bullrushing targets around the battlefield and flying after your shield with each slam or toss...

Just ran this by my group. And as for our house, we are agreed upon ^--- this ruling.

Available Movement = your movement speed, and your available movement is = x2 Movement Speed if charge as a full round action applies, or 1x Movement speed for Standard Action Charges due to Surprise/Stagger; every 5ft that you move via Move Action or Combat Maneuver reduces this total amount by 5ft, and if you take a 5ft step, then your movement for the round is immediately reduced to 0ft per the 5ft step rules. Insofar as "available movement" is considered, Movement via Move Action and/or Charge is linked thusly: so, movement made during any amount of the total number of Combat Maneuvers performed + the total amount moved during the Move Action or charge = the total amount that you can actually move in a round via Move/Charge + CMB maneuvers, and the GM has the final arbitration as to "how many" free actions can be performed realistically in a given round. So, if you have 120ft movement due to haste + charge, you can charge 50ft and have 70ft as Available Movement to Bull Rush and Overrun and Drag and Trip and w/e.

I think that's pretty fair.


Awesome, thanks guys.

I'm glad we found an answer, and I'm glad this ended amicably ^_^

Grand Lodge

Wow - Nice work!
I will build a Siegebreaker next!
But i will discuss this with the GM beforehand to ensure we understand the rules the same way.


Chell Raighn wrote:
going with the rules as JJ described on the otherhand... just opens up some extremely broken combat options... just imagine playing a Shield Champion Brawler and endlessly bullrushing targets around the battlefield and flying after your shield with each slam or toss...

Eh, it's fine. While I personally think his answer is far out of left field and clashes with most abilities we know of when extrapolated to anything but standard action Bull Rushes, I'll admit it won't break much.

Shield Champion Brawler only gets the ability to attempt maneuvers at range. It's still the same action to perform it.
Shield Slam was always restricted by actual actions spent to move and not the available movement.
Giant Fist Gauntlets does give you the potential of incredible movement but they're so expensive that by the time you get your... hands on them, enemy CMD bloats as it does in late game.

And even if you do have a Bull Rush on every hit, unless you have another way to direct your movement such as Battle Dancer, Circling Mongoose, or overrunning with Siegebreaker, you'll run out of space to Bull Rush your enemy pretty quickly. So it will only get broken for incredibly niche builds that have spent considerable resources to achieve it. And really, that's true for all content.

I'd like to say that Drag is the real winner considering what a welcome boost it would be, but just as Bull Rush the movement must be in a straight line. So even if you can now make it as part of a full-attack, it's hard to utilize.


I think JJ is wrong on the RAW of this. But I always play it the way he stated it. eg, you get a movement worth of distance as part and parcel of the bullrush manuver itself.

I have, however, never had anyone play a hyperfocused PC around bullrush or drag though. If they did with gauntlets, etc, I'd rule as follows: That you get as much movement total as the action type you are taking. eg, standard or move action to make a bullrush (even if its a free/swift action tacked onto said action), you get 30' (for the typical character) total movement to divide however you want among your bullrush attacks. For bullrushes during a full attack I'd give you a double move worth of distance (60') you could divide however you want among your bullrushes. Of course if you are hasted, a monk, a barabarian, small, wearing heavy armor, etc, those values change accordingly up or down.

On a side note, I'd do the same thing with overrun, rather than its RAW of during a move action expend a standard, to just work like JJ says bullrush works. eg, make a overrun manuever and you get 30' of movement as part of the standard you are taking to do the overrun.


It's worth noting that JJ didn't make a ruling of Bull Rush as part of a Full-Attack - because we didn't ask him (also he made it pretty clear he didn't want us to ask him any more about this, so let's not go annoy him).

So Standard Action "available movement" = your base speed.

Charge Action "available movement" = your charge speed (usually double your base speed) minus movement already spent as part of the charge.

Full Attack Action "available movement" = undefined (Shield Slam has it's own rules, as stated earlier in the thread). Rule how you like.

PERSONALLY I think the "available movement" as part of a Full Attack is zero, meaning if you want to move with them you'd have to 5-foot step. If you're using Pounce to get a full attack on a charge then you default to the Charge rules. If you're using Circling Mongoose (or similar) then that ability gives you movement during your full attack action that can be used with Bull Rush.

If I'm honest, even if someone made a Pouncing, Circling Mongoose, Bull Rushing Barbarian with those Giant Gloves and was abusing the hell out of it - it's still not going to be that different to just a Pouncing Barbarian anyway. Yes you get to move the enemy around the battlefield a bit (which can help set-up/avoid flanks etc), and you get to follow them (which makes you a bit more mobile) but it's not dealing extra damage, it's not imposing status effects and it's not really canceling out the enemy's attacks any more successfully than the Kockback Rage Power does on it's own. And this build requires specific Feats, Items and Class Features to work, so it should be good at it's thing.

TLDR: I'm glad we got a ruling, I doubt this will seriosuly change any gsmes.


You could get a ton of AOO's though...


MrCharisma wrote:

It's worth noting that JJ didn't make a ruling of Bull Rush as part of a Full-Attack - because we didn't ask him

Full Attack Action "available movement" = undefined (Shield Slam has it's own rules, as stated earlier in the thread). Rule how you like.

PERSONALLY I think the "available movement" as part of a Full Attack is zero, meaning if you want to move with them you'd have to 5-foot step. If you're using Pounce to get a full attack on a charge then you default to the Charge rules. If you're using Circling Mongoose (or similar) then that ability gives you movement during your full attack action that can be used with Bull Rush.

I think that your Available Movement during a Full attack is still your movement speed, it's just that during a normal Full Attack you don't have anything that will grant you movement. But once you start adding in shield slam, quick bull rush, and bull rush strike into a full attack, now you have something that will allow you to move. I would say if you're allowed to move 30ft during a Standard Action Bull Rush, and then you condense the entire time it takes to perform a Bull Rush into a Free Action or 1 Attack via feats, then you should still have 30ft of movement for these Bull Rushes.

So let's say you have 2 Shield Slams in a Full Attack, I think the 30ft movement made during these should be shared like bbangerter was saying, so one shield slam could be 10ft, and the other 15ft, and you've used up 25ft of the 30ft you could move. You've already moved now, so you can't take a 5ft step.


Sure.

I Reeaally didn't mean to restart this argument, so if your group is ok with it then go nuts. Have fun.

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