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Come up with a dungeon (not necessarily a subterranean dungeon) scenario in which there are no characters or creatures with which to encounter.
Challenge Rules
- Scenario must consist of three or more challenges suitable to an adventuring party, but can otherwise be as brief or as detailed as the author wishes.
- Scenario must not appear contrived. It must make sense within the context of the scene.
- Scenario must be interesting enough that players are likely to want to play in it.
Ideas will be judged on the above, as well as uniqueness and creativity by myself and anyone else who cares enough to weigh in.
The prize you win will be the accolades and/or resentment of those less creative than yourself. :)
Curious if you mean actually 'no creatures' or simply no combat.
I recently made a 'dungeon' in the city that was a murder mystery. It was a bunch of simple skill checks (usually diplomacy or intimidation, some search checks), Victory Point systems that would take several days (including a reconstruction of some damaged accounting records, and a stakeout). There was one battle at the very end, but I could re-work that to be another skill challenge instead.
Indiana Jones ~ style delver run...
Objective: Retrieve the MacGuffin; steal the treasure; end a curse . . .
Location: Some ancient, nearly forgotten catacombs / top-secret government storage facility / tomb / vault . . .
Hazards:
- General/generic environmental challenges (e.g.: collapsed ceiling requires rerouting or digging out, seeming dead-end requires climbing, flooded passage requires swimming, etc.)
- Booby traps (e.g.: pick the correct route through the passage where stepping on the wrong tile triggers a cave-in/poisoned dart barrage, solve a riddle to open a door or deactivate an active deterrent like a swinging blade; etc.)
I'm actually really interested in this. It has a couple of nice benefits. One, it likely ends up using aspects of the characters besides how much damage they can deal. Another benefit is that it can be built to be no-damage fairly easily. Which is good at really low levels since then there is no risk of player death.
There are some difficulties too. It is way too easy to build something that only takes a small handful of skill checks and are only done by one or maybe two characters. The other characters (likely the ones built for doing as much damage as quickly as possible) would feel left out.
Let me see what I can come up with...
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Riffing off the ideas from iNickedYerKnickers and adding some themes from the board game Forbidden Island and the awesome video game Descent.
The party is tasked with entering a long abandoned shrine and returning with a wanted item that is rumored to still be there.
Giving example numbers for a CR2 dungeon run.
Entry labrynth: The people who built this shrine created a labrynth to keep the uninitiated out. For those who can read the writings and understand the artwork on the walls, the way through is clear indeed. But since that knowledge died with the society of the group, you will have to rely on your deciphering skills or maze solving ability.
Labrynth Points (Victory Point system): Party needs to accumulate 8 Labrynth Points. Critical Success grants +2 points. Success gives +1. Failure and Critical Failure provide 0. Skill checks can be made for every 15 minutes of work at a task. Each check can only be done once during that time. Characters may aid another who is making the check.
Standard skill checks (can always be used):
Sense Direction: Hard DC by level = 18.
Perception: Hard DC by level = 18.
Lore (Mining, Underground terrain) (trained only): Easy DC by level = 14
Limited use skill checks (can only be succeeded at once per hour):
Decipher Writing: Very Hard DC by level = 21.
Nature (or Religion, Occultism, or Arcana depending on flavor of the shrine): Hard DC by level = 18.
Altar Room: The thing to get is in this room, but it is hidden away. You must discover the manner of its release before it is visible. Even then, it was never intended to be removed from its pedestal.
A character must make a Nature (or Religion, Occultism, Arcana) check Incredibly Hard DC of level +2 = 29 in order to find the object. The party can reduce the DC by investigating various things in the room. Each one can only be attempted once. Each attempt takes 30 minutes.
Decipher Writing to RTFM: Hard DC by level = 18. Reduces DC of primary check by 4.
Nature (Or other magic tradition skills): Hard DC by level = 18. Reduces DC of primary check by 4.
Perception: Easy DC by level = 14. Reduces DC of primary check by 2.
Disable Device: Very Hard DC by level = 21. Reduces DC of primary check by 4.
Lore (Engineering, Architecture): Easy DC by level. Reduces DC of primary check by 4.
If the primary check is failed, a noticeable effect happens in the room. Three failures causes the shrine to begin its collapse.
If the primary check is succeeded, the shrine item is revealed. Removing it requires a Disable Device check Standard DC by level = 16, or by dealing Low HP for a creature of level - 1 = 14 slashing damage to the altar holding it (no attack roll needed).
Shrine collapse: The shrine was set to sink into an underground lake that it was built over if ever the item was removed from its altar. The architects wanted the faithful to be able to leave, however - even if an unfaithful member or a cunning thief gained access to the altar. Once the shrine begins collapsing, evacuation paths are revealed. You could also take your chances with the labrynth, but that water level is rising rather quickly and who knows if your previous path through it is still clear enough to be passable.
Once a Disable Device check is attempted or damage is dealt to the altar, the shrine begins its collapse. Players must begin their escape within 2 rounds or they have to make an initial swim check to get to the escape tunnels. Swim check Untrained DC = 10.
Escape Points (diminishing victory point system): Party starts with 8 Escape points. Each character must make an attempt at each skill check involving Acrobatics or Athletics (to climb, jump, balance, swing on ropes, etc) in order for the party to pass the obstacle. The party may pay 1 Escape point to have up to 2 characters aid other characters in their checks. This provides a +1 bonus for each character that is providing aid, but only if those characters succeed at the check themselves. For other checks, only one character needs to succeed at the check in order for the party to progress past the obstacle. Another character may aid the check freely.
If the party fails to progress past an obstacle, they lose 1 Escape point. If a character critically succeeds at a single character skill check, the party gains 1 Escape point. If all of the characters succeed at an Acrobatics or Athletics obstacle and at least one character critically succeeds, the party gains 1 Escape point.
If the party runs out of Escape Points, they must swim out of the evacuation tunnel - dealing with the normal effects of being underwater.
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Derp. I forgot to actually put in the obstacles for the escape tunnel.
There are 10 obstacles that must be done in order.
Climbing into the tunnel: Climb: untrained DC = 10.
Running down a hallway: Athletics: untrained DC = 10.
Building a makeshift bridge: Craft: trained DC = 15.
Balancing across the bridge just made: Acrobatics: untrained DC = 10.
Avoiding a dead-end: Decipher Writing: Standard DC by level = 16.
Navigating a section of tunnel that is cracking and falling away: Acrobatics: Easy DC by level = 14.
Running down another clear hallway: Athletics: untrained DC = 10.
Avoiding falling ceiling rocks: Athletics: Standard DC by level = 16.
Opening the final grate: Disable Device: Hard DC by level = 18 or damage to destroy the grate: HP and hardness standard for hazard of level = hardness 7, HP 34.
Off to a great start everyone!
I'd like to try this if I get a chance but I must ask, are living Hazards out of the question as well?
If it does not have a creature's stat block, and is not a thinking creature that can be interacted with, than I guess it would be fine.
A haunt with mindless spiritual essence that presents as a hazard rather than a creature, or a living mold spore hazard would likely be appropriate.
Curious if you mean actually 'no creatures' or simply no combat.
I gave this some thought before posting, and is why I chose the wording that I did.
The intent is for the challenge to have no creatures that can be interacted with whatsoever (whether or not they have traditional stat blocks).
A corpse, petrification victim, or other feature that can't interact would probably be okay provided the scenario is presented at a low enough level that such conditions are unlikely to be cured.
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I made such a dungeon recently. There was a few monsters, but so few that you could remove them without strongly altering the game.
Storywise, the PCs found a portal to a flying pyramid of Hakotep I (he made 18 of them, if I recall correctly). So, it was a classic "let's rob a tomb" game. But the pyramid was highly magical (it flies, after all) and its magic has been slowly going down over the centuries. So most of the traps and spells were deactivated or not really dangerous, like this hallway full of pressure plates that were originally hidden by illusion magic and now easily visible.
I used this map for the pyramid, the PCs started at the top and were going to the bottom, I just removed the ground floor.
So the pyramid was full of mostly non effective traps and spells, and only the end (with a hole in the ground) was dangerous. My players were going through it easily.
Then they reached the treasure vault. The vault was protected by a very strong spell. But the magic of the pyramid was too low to sustain it, so when the spell got triggered, it made a lot of light and noise and nothing more. But the energy released by its near activation was so high that the whole pyramid magic started to fade, including what made it fly. And the pyramid slowly started to fall down.
At that stage, I reactivated the fog of war (we were on roll20) and I rolled initiative. So the PCs had to go back to the top of the pyramid, as soon as possible, and take the portal back to safety. But now, all the super easy and visible traps and spells were far more dangerous when you were running through them. Also, the magic of the pyramid was eratic, reactivating some effects. And of course you had to remember the proper way to go up.
The whole dungeon has been in fact a 13 round race.
Overall, it has been a lot of fun.
Among the challenges, there were hallways of visible traps, with Acrobatics or Reflex saves to run through without activating them.
Many saves against foul liquids/smells or enchantments, that were either giving the Sickened or Slowed condition. Nothing dangerous, but when you are running you don't have time to remove the Sickened condition and the Slowed one is reducing your speed.
Holes in the ground, and the desert underneath. Lots of wind coming from these and Fortitude saves to resist it (I used Fortitude saves because Gust of Wind asks for a Fortitude save).
There was a room with tree roots. I asked for Acrobatics checks to move quickly through the roots, otherwise it was one action per square.
Just out of curiosity, how about physical or verbal riddles that do not require or can't be solved by skill checks at all? When I started my roleplaying career a couple of decades back those were pretty much the norm and usually all players and their characters participated in solving them. So in my experience a "riddle room" with levels, gears, dials or other contraptions can usually provide some fun. In addition there are a couple of excellent escape room type games out there that can easily provide sufficient background material for individual challenges.
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Just out of curiosity, how about physical or verbal riddles that do not require or can't be solved by skill checks at all? When I started my roleplaying career a couple of decades back those were pretty much the norm and usually all players and their characters participated in solving them. So in my experience a "riddle room" with levels, gears, dials or other contraptions can usually provide some fun. In addition there are a couple of excellent escape room type games out there that can easily provide sufficient background material for individual challenges.
As a player in general, NO GOD PLEASE NO!
Everyone always thinks their riddles or puzzles are clever and interesting.
They're not. Or at least almost never are. Either they're so obvious to the players that it's not a challenge, or it's so challenging that players have no idea. It also removes the characters from the game, which shouldn't be done in my opinion.
Skill checks are the most appropriate avenue.
That said, if your players are really down for that kind of thing (ask them first) then forget what I said and do it.
Personally I play rpgs to relax, not to think hard and critically about puzzles. If it's more complex than the Skyrim puzzles (they basically show you the answer and you have to rotate a set of stones to open a door) then I'm probably going to quickly become disinterested and play on my phone.
As a player in general, NO GOD PLEASE NO!
Recently, I've put a mechanical carny on a table who was telling riddles to kids (super easy riddles I got from a kid website). My players spent nearly half an hour to get to the last riddle. They gained a green Chtulhu plush and 10 XP.
"If Jenny gives one biscuit to Jack, they'll have the same number of biscuits. But if Jack gives Jenny one biscuit, she'll have twice the number of biscuits Jack has."
And then look at how you can get a whole (online) table crazy about equations!!!!
So, maybe players hate it, but they desperately want to get to the end of it. There are things that are bad for you that you still can't stop doing.
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As a player in general, NO GOD PLEASE NO!
Everyone always thinks their riddles or puzzles are clever and interesting.
They're not. Or at least almost never are. Either they're so obvious to the players that it's not a challenge, or it's so challenging that players have no idea. It also removes the characters from the game, which shouldn't be done in my opinion.
Skill checks are the most appropriate avenue.
That said, if your players are really down for that kind of thing (ask them first) then forget what I said and do it.
Personally I play rpgs to relax, not to think hard and critically about puzzles. If it's more complex than the Skyrim puzzles (they basically show you the answer and you have to rotate a set of stones to open a door) then I'm probably going to quickly become disinterested and play on my phone.
To each its own I guess, however I do not concur to a "only the most suited player does all the heavy lifting" approach. On the contrary my experience is that if the Bard does all the talking (and appropriate checks), or the Wizard is solving all the riddles (using appropriate checks) this is a very fast way to disengage 3 of 4 players from the actual challenge at hand.
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If Jenny gives one biscuit to Jack, they'll have the same number of biscuits. But if Jack gives Jenny one biscuit, she'll have twice the number of biscuits Jack has."
"Don't tell me I'm wrong"
/smh You're not wrong... and I found a solution :P (It took me 5 minutes.)
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"If Jenny gives one biscuit to Jack, they'll have the same number of biscuits. But if Jack gives Jenny one biscuit, she'll have twice the number of biscuits Jack has."
And then look at how you can get a whole (online) table crazy about equations!!!!
This riddle is best solved with a box of actual biscuits at the table! ;)
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Another no monster challenge inspired by Wolfenstein/Doom:
"Congratulations adventurers, you just finished the dungeon of evil Evilness. You killed 100% of the monsters in there and found 90% of the secret passages."
Even better when there's no secret passage to find!
Just be prepared to lose a few players.
I'm so evil I hesitate in doing it in my AV campaign...
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Just out of curiosity, how about physical or verbal riddles that do not require or can't be solved by skill checks at all? When I started my roleplaying career a couple of decades back those were pretty much the norm and usually all players and their characters participated in solving them. So in my experience a "riddle room" with levels, gears, dials or other contraptions can usually provide some fun. In addition there are a couple of excellent escape room type games out there that can easily provide sufficient background material for individual challenges.
We have a winner. I was wondering who would suggest this first. Try not to take the flaming too personally.
TL;DR, know your players before trying this.
In thinking about it for a while, there is one good thing that can come from this. It can get people to think of the game as role-playing instead of just a dice game. We aren't playing Yahtzee here, people.
However, there are a lot of pitfalls to be aware of too.
One is that it only works for players who are effectively playing an avatar of themselves in the game. For anyone who is playing a character different from themselves it will instead be very jarring when success at the challenge has nothing to do with the character and is instead based on the mental abilities of the player.
You should absolutely actually present a riddle if the in-game challenge is a riddle. 'Speak friend and enter'. And it can lead to a good conversation about the difference between player knowledge and character knowledge. "Unless you want me asking for a demonstration of these feats of strength that your character has been doing, such as ripping a portcullis out of the passageway or wrestling a rhinoceros to the ground, don't complain when your 10 INT Barbarian with no training in society is unable to figure out the language based riddle - even though you yourself already know the answer to it."
The biggest problem though, is that not everyone's power fantasy is the same. Some people want to play a spellcaster, even though they themselves can't cast spells. Some people want to play a brawny brawler, or a nimble acrobatic character. Or someone that can fly.
Similarly, some people want to play a diplomatic social butterfly, even though they themselves are unable to do so. Some people want to play a puzzle solving investigator even though they have no skill at logic puzzles. Some want to play a character that is intimidating. Or a skilled crafter.
So if I was playing a charismatic, diplomatic, con artist character, but you make success for my character based solely on my own ability to lie, cheat, and steal - you have just invalidated my power fantasy and I am going to rage quit your game.
"If Jenny gives one biscuit to Jack, they'll have the same number of biscuits. But if Jack gives Jenny one biscuit, she'll have twice the number of biscuits Jack has."
And then look at how you can get a whole (online) table crazy about equations!!!!
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This riddle is best solved with a box of actual biscuits at the table! ;)"If Jenny gives one biscuit to Jack, they'll have the same number of biscuits. But if Jack gives Jenny one biscuit, she'll have twice the number of biscuits Jack has."
And then look at how you can get a whole (online) table crazy about equations!!!!
And to add pressure, you eat a biscuit every minute.
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the challenge has nothing to do with the character and is instead based on the mental abilities of the player.
In my opinion, that summarizes the biggest argument against the riddles.
I've seen riddles done well - the players were presented with a cryptic message, and then skill checks gated certain in-game clues that make it appropriately challenging to make the out-of-character connections.
But, I've also seen it done pretty poorly. I've sat there holding my tongue for 10 minutes because I (the player) figured it out instantaneously, but the party was structured so that two of us figured it out too fast, two were totally uninterested in figuring it out (and wanted to smash the door down), and the two people who got the in-game clues really wanted to solve it themselves.
I wouldn't do riddles for any group that I don't know super well. I did a musical puzzle for my kids, but only because I was homeschooling their music lessons so I knew exactly what they knew (and we have a piano, so they could run over to solve the puzzle).
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I personnaly love to put riddles in my games. Riddles, puzzles, secret passages that you can only find by cross referencing different pieces of information.
The only thing I don't do is making them mandatory for the story to go on. So, if my players are uninterested by riddles, they will most of the time not even realize they missed some. But if they are interested by riddles, they can have a pretty good time as I don't have to make them easy.
It works out quite well in general.
For anyone who is playing a character different from themselves it will instead be very jarring when success at the challenge has nothing to do with the character and is instead based on the mental abilities of the player.
It's the case for the whole adventure, unless you forbid your players to make any choice. Sometimes, the player and the character choices are not aligned.
In my opinion, GMs should be lenient on these kind of things. It's super frustrating when, as a player, there's something super interesting in the game you're playing and because your character shouldn't be interested by it you don't have the right to interact with it. If the barbarian wants to seduce the princess, if the wizard wants to participate to the wrestling competition, if the fighter wants to help solve the riddle, if the chaotic character wants to help the paladins, I would just close my eyes. Yes, it's not the best action roleplay wise, but we are there to have fun. And it's always easy to find a reason for a character action, even if it's not an expected one.
To each its own I guess, however I do not concur to a "only the most suited player does all the heavy lifting" approach. On the contrary my experience is that if the Bard does all the talking (and appropriate checks), or the Wizard is solving all the riddles (using appropriate checks) this is a very fast way to disengage 3 of 4 players from the actual challenge at hand.As a player in general, NO GOD PLEASE NO!
Everyone always thinks their riddles or puzzles are clever and interesting.
They're not. Or at least almost never are. Either they're so obvious to the players that it's not a challenge, or it's so challenging that players have no idea. It also removes the characters from the game, which shouldn't be done in my opinion.
Skill checks are the most appropriate avenue.
That said, if your players are really down for that kind of thing (ask them first) then forget what I said and do it.
Personally I play rpgs to relax, not to think hard and critically about puzzles. If it's more complex than the Skyrim puzzles (they basically show you the answer and you have to rotate a set of stones to open a door) then I'm probably going to quickly become disinterested and play on my phone.
I think the problem is then that you're not tailoring your challenges to give everyone at the table something to do. It doesn't have to be concurrent within the timeline of the game, but does need to be concurrent for players.
They can all be working on some task the helps with the overall goal, provided that you give them the opportunity to. Have 1 or 2 skill checks that don't require someone to be specialized in something really helps. Having an average difficulty perception check can be at least be attempted by anyone, and hopefully the players will realize of the 6 things they can attempt there are 2 actions suited for 2 specialist in the party. 2 actions suited for nearly anyone. And 2 actions that the party will ignore as no one is suited for them.
It's more work for the GM...but well that's the nature of being a GM.
If the barbarian wants to seduce the princess, if the wizard wants to participate to the wrestling competition, if the fighter wants to help solve the riddle, if the chaotic character wants to help the paladins, I would just close my eyes. Yes, it's not the best action roleplay wise, but we are there to have fun. And it's always easy to find a reason for a character action, even if it's not an expected one.
None of those are really comparable to the thing breithauptclan is talking about though.
Love these ideas! Here's some spit-balling of my own.
-Alchemical shenanigans! Glue traps, hallucinogenic fumes, experimental mutagens that will give you a benefit/drawback (spider climb but -4 intelligence).
-Musical puzzles that can be solved by Performance check, but you have to use Lore/Recall Knowledge to know what kind of song to sing or dance to perform. Tongue-twisters could also be a funny way to use Perform (if the player can do the tongue-twister on the 1st try, the PC automatically succeeds).
-A maze where the walls are made of fog. The correct path is actually hidden within the fog-wall.
-The PC's see a large obstacle course room that leads to a high door, with the various obstacles acting like stairs. Behind them, a wall of fire ignites and begins slowly moving towards them, chasing them through the obstacle course (stolen from the Fire Temple in Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time).
-A riddle told with a series of pictures instead of words, bonus points if you draw it up yourself. Could be a fun twist on the normal riddle, but still give the same sense. I always let the players try to solve the riddle themselves, but if they're having trouble or just not into it I let them make Intelligence checks.
-Find a gift to appease a spirit (dead soul or incarnation of a thing/idea). This one lets your players get creative, but give them 3 hints (available for successfully Recalling Knowledge or getting the spirit to talk) and 3 planned gifts that can be obtained with some skill checks.
Part of the problem that I keep running into with this particular challenge is the requirement to have no other creatures. That removes several skills entirely (Deception, Diplomacy, Intimidate), and a couple more that are of very limited value (Performance, Stealth).
When doing campaign building, where that limitation is removed, there are several more encounter themes or even entire scenarios that can be built using only skill checks.
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Also, (in case you hadn't already noticed) I am a big fan of the Victory Point system. If you squint just right, you can see that the core rules have a victory point system built in to it. It is a diminishing point system that is tracked for each character rather than the party as a whole. It represents the health and vitality of the characters and is called Hit Points.
The benefits of using a system like that is that a single good or bad roll does not cause immediate success or failure of the encounter as a whole*. Success or failure is the accumulation of many choices and rolls made. Also, there are many different ways of contributing to the encounter, so every character has a good chance of having something that will be effective and fit with the character concept.
So why should only combat have a system like that?
* Well, maybe when playing rocket tag where whoever wins initiative wins the fight...
In a different system I ran a haunted house which if I recall had no combat. Giving a tangible enemy to fight would've dampened the horror IMO, and it was definitely about horror.
First the party got separated whenever they let a door close between them. These were dimensional shifts so opening the door did nothing; the others would be gone. So they held hands afterward when moving. :)
They would see the effects of the others' actions, which added more spooky phenomena to the mix. :)
I believe it ended up being two pairs and a loner, though through various means a few individuals were able to make limited contact with others, even if their companions couldn't.
There were murals with various effects, i.e. a jungle scene w/ growling noises where a feline claw would swipe the 2nd time they passed it (and after that too, but they could sprint past on the other side w/o looking at it). Technically that would have led to a fight had they continued to interact with it, since it'd transport the creature in.
-Another mural where a party member saw a PC from a separated group hanged. Meanwhile that other PC got pulled into the air and started suffocating. The PCs at the painting had to figure out how to release him (though the victim ended up doing something to escape via Rule of Cool).
-A third mural had a cosmic scene which took mental effort to escape before losing one's mind.
-I'm forgetting the fourth mural, it may have been innocuous simply to make them wary that it wasn't.
There was a mirror where they could replay a murder scene, becoming the victim if they didn't snap out of it. A den with a fireplace that sucked heat after the doors trapped you in.
Whimpering under the bed. Finding their own heads mounted on the wall (and then them being swapped into there with a guillotine poised if they didn't escape in time). Room of webs that would bundle and enmesh them (meaning others would have to rescue them, but the 1st person escaped before that stage). Bunch more things.
The party was effectively trapped until they depleted the energy of the haunting forces by overcoming the various threats, cleaning up murder sites, giving the dead spirits peace, etc. or barring all that surviving until the morning. They did escape earlier, though only two managed to retain their memories so the other PCs were asking, "Weren't we supposed to check this place out?" The two would answer, "NO!"
And of course, they deduced that burning the place down would worsen matters by opening up whatever dimensional vortex was powering it. :)
Despite the lethality, only one PC came within one roll of dying (he got his head lopped off in the mirror, yet survived the shock to his system much like a Phantasmal Killer spell). In many if not all cases the players didn't know how many stages there were before death so there was much panicking. :) :) :)
Almost forgot, the party took two items out which became major focal points for future adventures. One a doll with a trapped spirit which tried to communicate with the PC who took it (and didn't remember where he'd gotten it from, thought he was going nuts). and another a lamp which induced people to kill which a laborer stole. Good times.
Oh, and later a new NPC in the city moved into the house, rattling them further.
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That aside, this challenge seems basic. Yes, non-combat obstacles take more effort to develop, but there have been thousands published throughout the decades of D&D/PF (and much more if one snatches from other systems too). Pick and choose which ones fit a theme and run with it. Tournament modules (IRL, not in-game tournaments) often have more than usual, though nearly all have several.
Wasn't there an early PFS scenario where one's level didn't matter much because it was all trickery and puzzles?
That aside, this challenge seems basic. Yes, non-combat obstacles take more effort to develop, but there have been thousands published throughout the decades of D&D/PF (and much more if one snatches from other systems too).
Sure. Doesn't mean it isn't fun to think up new ones. Plus, how many people on these forums have the time, knowledge, and resources to find all of them.
That aside, this challenge seems basic. Yes, non-combat obstacles take more effort to develop, but there have been thousands published throughout the decades of D&D/PF (and much more if one snatches from other systems too).Sure. Doesn't mean it isn't fun to think up new ones. Plus, how many people on these forums have the time, knowledge, and resources to find all of them.
News to me. In my 25 years of roleplaying numerous systems, I've not had a single game that excluded combat for anything other than roleplaying.
A puzzle heavy session or one with nothing but hazards just never happened.
That aside, this challenge seems basic. Yes, non-combat obstacles take more effort to develop, but there have been thousands published throughout the decades of D&D/PF (and much more if one snatches from other systems too).Sure. Doesn't mean it isn't fun to think up new ones. Plus, how many people on these forums have the time, knowledge, and resources to find all of them.News to me. In my 25 years of roleplaying numerous systems, I've not had a single game that excluded combat for anything other than roleplaying.
A puzzle heavy session or one with nothing but hazards just never happened.
I believe you've misread, RD. I wrote non-combat obstacles, not non-combat adventures, not even sessions. Definitely the preponderance of obstacles are creatures to fight or parlay with*, yet in any given module, one could expect to find several traps or physical obstacles to traverse, maybe even a haunt (if those count), puzzle, or riddle (though the latter two much rarer nowadays). Add time limits, curses, races, chases, etc. as needed (if tuned to qualify).
If one were to assemble a list, it'd break a thousand options (and that's not counting the guides like Grimtooth's or for DMs/GMs). (And yes, the list for monster encounters would be exponentially larger!)As breithauptclan pointed out, that doesn't mean it can't be fun and rewarding to share more. :)
*And I'd venture most players want this (or RPing) to be the bulk.
Section I, Radya's Hollow, in Assault on Longshadow, the 3rd module in the Irongfang Invasion adventure path, is almost a creatureless adventure. It is a mine with the last survivors of Radya's Hollow trapped in it. The hostile creatures are three semi-corporeal spirits called quarrygeists and some giant albino solifugids. Otherwise, the mine has the hazards expected of an abandoned mine, such as rope bridges that could break, rockfalls from the ceiling, and acid pools.
I altered Assault on Longshadow so that the party arrived while Radya's Hollow was still under assault by a company of Ironfang Legion soldiers. I still used the mine as written by the Radya's Hollow villagers telling the PCs that two villagers had gone into the haunted abandoned mine seeking a lost stash of healing potions and not returned. Without the trapped villagers, the PCs could still enter the mine to seek the supply of healing potions.
Would replacing the quarrygeists with haunt hazards count as no monsters?
Interesting, but to be honest, if I was to go to the time and trouble of actually designing all this, I certainly wouldn't throw it up in a message-board post. I would submit that baby to a publisher and get paid for my effort. Daddy's gotta eat!
1) Because that is so easy to do...
2) I do eat. Stuff like this is what I do for fun. Though I do acknowledge that other people are in different circumstances than I am.
That aside, this challenge seems basic. Yes, non-combat obstacles take more effort to develop, but there have been thousands published throughout the decades of D&D/PF (and much more if one snatches from other systems too).Sure. Doesn't mean it isn't fun to think up new ones. Plus, how many people on these forums have the time, knowledge, and resources to find all of them.News to me. In my 25 years of roleplaying numerous systems, I've not had a single game that excluded combat for anything other than roleplaying.
A puzzle heavy session or one with nothing but hazards just never happened.
heck out War for the Crown. The first book has a full blown escape room. Or for more recent examples, check out the early chapters of Age of Ashes books 2 and 4. They are social challenges but ones that use an encounter structure.
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1. A hazard that turns the PCs against each other through mind control.
2. A necromantic aura that raises the dead PCs as undead bent on killing the survivors.
3. Once all PCs are undead, a deal with a Fiend that the last one left undestroyed will be resurrected. An all-PCs resurrection can even be negotiated by the lone survivor.
Because that is so easy to do...Actually it is, assuming the content of your writing and the quality of the presentation is worth the paper (or word doc) its written on :-)
Writing it is the easy part. Finding where and how to submit it and convincing someone to actually pay for it is much more challenging.
Bit o' thread necromancy here but I was pointed this way by Azothath this afternoon. My question is only this: what do you do with PCs that don't have a ton of skills?
I have 2 megadungeon campaigns running right now but one is kind of on hiatus. The other just hit level 7. I'd love to include some non-creature vignettes in the dungeon, but here's my PC list:
Human Wizard (Fire Wizard) 7, Half-Dwarf Paladin 7, Half-Elf U-Monk 7, Elf U-Rogue (Scout) 7.
The wizard is all knowledge skills, spellcraft, and a TINY amount of Craft: Calligraphy. The Paladin has Ride and Knowledge: Religion along with Profession: Merchant. The U-Monk and U-Rogue have a bevvy of skills that are useful being "faces" (Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff) as well as the "optimal" skills (Perception Acrobatics, Stealth and Disable Device). The wizard and rogue both also have a gentle smattering of Linguistics.
Every time we enter any sort of non-combat scene the players immediately figure out who has the most appropriate skill and they use it, period. There's weird writing on the wall? Only the wizard takes an action. Complex device? Rogue. Climb check? Monk. and so on.
So let's say I use the obstacle course with the fire wall coming. Right off the bat my wizard player is going to say: "Detect Magic and either Spellcraft or Knowledge: Arcana; is that wall of fire a spell or a trap or a device or what?" We resolve this, I declare its a
Spell: he will try to dispel it
Trap: the u-rogue will try to disable it
Device: again, attempt to dispelIf I just summarily decide they can't stop the wall of fire advancing, then they'll immediately begin trying to reason out how to circumvent the obstacles. You're likely to see the wizard casting Fly on a couple of the stronger PCs so they can pick up and carry the lighter ones with them. All of that is so the wizard with no Acrobatics and Climb skills doesn't have to run the obstacle course.
Edit: just realized, I run PF1 and this is for PF2. I doubt any of this is for me or vice...
I'd though I'd detected PF1-ness!
As for neutral, I'd say much of this thread applies as it's pretty easy to port ideas back and forth between editions. It only takes number swapping since most aspects have reflections in the other system.But if you're running a megadungeon, you might want to check in with your players that they want anything other than megadungeon flavor.
Then again, a series of traps and riddles would fit the theme, perhaps with a maze (obviously shifting or extradimensional to hamper mapping), though you'll need to spice up the maze so it's not a labor, but fun throughout.
RPing could be done w/ constructs, ancient spirits, and such. One of my groups had fun RPing w/ an Imp they'd captured and bound. The Imp went on to become significant later.
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Honestly most of this is pretty system-neutral.
To get around one or two people having the right skill, you can use challenges that require multiple people to be doing stuff at the same time. Someone has to stand on the pressure plate to counterbalance the widget so someone else can get to the button and fiddle with it. But you know that when the one door opens the other closes so you have to figure out how to get the skilled person on the right side at the right time.
It's a bit like worker placement euro-boardgames.
Also, as much as some people hate "player" riddles, figuring out who should be doing what in such a setup as this is also a riddle, it's just not got an official "this is a riddle" sticker on top of it.
Instead of being upset that the riddle challenges the player instead of the character, you can also consider that an advantage: the riddle can engage the player even if the current scene doesn't really have the right skill options for their character
Bit o' thread necromancy here but I was pointed this way by Azothath this afternoon. My question is only this: what do you do with PCs that don't have a ton of skills?
Every time we enter any sort of non-combat scene the players immediately figure out who has the most appropriate skill and they use it, period. There's weird writing on the wall? Only the wizard takes an action. Complex device? Rogue. Climb check? Monk. and so on.
Yup. That all looks very system-agnostic.
1) You have to find something that each character has appropriate numbers for. The Wizard has knowledge skills, spellcraft, and craft. Paladin has very few skills. Monk and Rogue have a bunch of social skills. So the complex encounter-level skill challenge will need to have some aspect of it that each character is capable of taking part in.
This can include things that don't even need skill checks. Roles that just need a warm body to do the job.
And it can include things that aren't actually skills. Things like fortitude saves (endurance), will saves (concentration, determination) , or reflex saves (avoiding dangers).
2) Make sure that each character feels some pressure to have to participate in some way. Time constraints makes a good consequence for having players try to sit out. If they don't do something, time keeps passing but they aren't progressing quickly enough to the solution.
So let's say I use the obstacle course with the fire wall coming. Right off the bat my wizard player is going to say: "Detect Magic and either Spellcraft or Knowledge: Arcana; is that wall of fire a spell or a trap or a device or what?" We resolve this, I declare its a
Spell: he will try to dispel it
Trap: the u-rogue will try to disable it
Device: again, attempt to dispelIf I just summarily decide they can't stop the wall of fire advancing, then they'll immediately begin trying to reason out how to circumvent the obstacles. You're likely to see the wizard casting Fly on a couple of the stronger PCs so they can pick up and carry the lighter ones with them. All of that is so the wizard with no Acrobatics and Climb skills doesn't have to run the obstacle course.
Yeah. Sidenote, this is why some spells are marked as uncommon or rare in PF2. And why basically every spell that involves short-range teleportation explicitly forbids carrying another creature in any fashion.
Anyway. Looks like a chase type of encounter. The fire being the chaser. The obstacles being ... well, the obstacles.
Victory Point system (I think even PF1 had something like that in some expansion book). Players start with a head start of 4 points. 1 point gained for successful check from any character. 0 points for a failed check. (PF1 doesn't have rules for critical success or failure :-( Though you could add them for these skill encounters) After each round of checks, the fire progresses by 3 points (deducting 3 points from the party's total).
So: Wizard wants to dispel the wall of fire that is there simply to provide the time constraints. Wizard doesn't want to have to navigate the obstacles.
Allow the Wizard to make a skill check (no need to use spell slots for this) to delay/diminish/hinder the fire. But that only counts as 1 point to the total. The flames come back afterwards.
There is no need for the Wizard to make athletics or acrobatics checks. The points gained by the athletic and acrobatic characters count to the party's total. Flavor that as the characters being able to open passages or drop ramps after passing the obstacles.