Repeating weapons - Please fix them if they're in G&G


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Dataphiles

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Looking at the repeating crossbow in AV3, there's a twofold issue with this weapon that I think should be addressed if more of these weapons get introduced in G&G

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1) Shootist's Bandolier

Why does this item exist? It's in the same book as the repeating crossbow. It would be one thing if it was introduced later to fix issues with the weapon (though i'd still be grumpy about doing that instead of just reprinting the weapon) but in the same book? Why not just have the repeating crossbow take 2 actions to swap the magazine by base and remove this item? As far as I can tell there's no penalty to having it aside from the trivial 1gp cost.

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2) Reloading

This weapon is incredibly unclear on if you need a free hand or not to "reload" it between each shot. As far as I can tell, by RAW, every reload weapon - including reload 0 ones - need a free hand to reload.

Reload wrote:

While all weapons need some amount of time to get into position, many ranged weapons also need to be loaded and reloaded. This entry indicates how many Interact actions it takes to reload such weapons. This can be 0 if drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action. If an item takes 2 or more actions to reload, the GM determines whether they must be performed together as an activity, or you can spend some of those actions during one turn and the rest during your next turn.

An item with an entry of “—” must be drawn to be thrown, which usually takes an Interact action just like drawing any other weapon. Reloading a ranged weapon and drawing a thrown weapon both require a free hand. Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon.

Now the repeating crossbow says it autoloads

Repeating crossbow flavour wrote:
This weapon features an ingeniously designed catch mechanism at the top of the flight grove, just in front of the latch, which automatically loads a bolt from a magazine and resets the string each time the weapon is fired. A typical repeating hand crossbow magazine holds five bolts.

But the repeating trait also says the weapon needs to be cocked, which would require a hand to do so anyway

Repeating trait wrote:

A repeating weapon is typically a type of crossbow that has a shorter reload time. These weapons can’t be loaded with individual bolts like other crossbows; instead, they require a magazine of specialized ammunition to be loaded into

a special slot. Once that magazine is in place, the ammunition is automatically loaded each time the weapon is cocked to fire, reducing its reload to the value in its reload entry (typically 0). When the ammunition runs out, a new magazine must be loaded, which requires a free hand and 3 Interact actions (to remove the old magazine, retrieve the new magazine, and slot the new magazine in place). These actions don’t need to be consecutive.

So which is it? Does the weapon need a free hand to "reload" between each shot? Or is the repeating trait supposed to override that? An additional clarifying sentence to the repeating trait would be good.


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Exocist wrote:

1) Shootist's Bandolier

Why does this item exist? It's in the same book as the repeating crossbow. It would be one thing if it was introduced later to fix issues with the weapon (though i'd still be grumpy about doing that instead of just reprinting the weapon) but in the same book? Why not just have the repeating crossbow take 2 actions to swap the magazine by base and remove this item? As far as I can tell there's no penalty to having it aside from the trivial 1gp cost.

The bandolier only holds three magazines and only applies to a specific weapon. The repeating trait applies to multiple weapons.

Quote:

2) Reloading

This weapon is incredibly unclear on if you need a free hand or not to "reload" it between each shot. As far as I can tell, by RAW, every reload weapon - including reload 0 ones - need a free hand to reload.

If it doesn't take an Interact action to reload, it doesn't need a hand. Some repeating weapons might still need an Interact action to reload, in which case they would need to be cocked using a free hand.

If you understand that the repeating trait is intended to be reused, the rules make sense.

Liberty's Edge

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I don't see the problem here... the benefit of Repeating Weapons is that you're saving on Actions.

Just like you need a free hand to draw the arrow for a bow despite not needing to spend actions so too do repeating weapons require you to have another hand to cock the weapon. The Action savings you net from this are from not needing to play the quiver-grabass game every time you need the weapon reloaded and the Trait does not remove the need to put both hands on it to Reload (if it did that it would absolutely say so), it just makes the process MUCH faster than normal, you still need both hands if you want to fire it more than once... again, there is nothing to fix.


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Themetricsystem wrote:

I don't see the problem here... the benefit of Repeating Weapons is that you're saving on Actions.

Just like you need a free hand to draw the arrow for a bow despite not needing to spend actions so too do repeating weapons require you to have another hand to cock the weapon. The Action savings you net from this are from not needing to play the quiver-grabass game every time you need the weapon reloaded and the Trait does not remove the need to put both hands on it to Reload (if it did that it would absolutely say so), it just makes the process MUCH faster than normal, you still need both hands if you want to fire it more than once... again, there is nothing to fix.

The weapon would be 1+ handed if it required a second hand to use in its normal function. The repeating repeating crossbow description is incredibly explicit: The repeat crossbow loads itself after each firing.

Maybe there will be other repeating weapons that function in a different way, but the repeating handcross bow states very clearly that it requires one hand and reloads itself automatically after firing if it has bolts left in its magazine.

Liberty's Edge

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Yes, you're right it "reloads itself" in that it drops a new bolt into place after you cock the weapon again, this is something that requires no Actions but is ABSOLUTELY requires you to use both hands.

That is unless you're talking about how Repeating weapons are either innately magical or are somehow perfectly crafted perpetual motion machines that can draw a 150 lb weight by applying one-half pound of force to the trigger. Really... I often wonder how many people here have actually used or seen a real crossbow in action much less a repeating one, it's not like a revolver, you still need to exert JUST as much physical force to pull the string back despite the bolt falling into place on its own. Even real competition athletes have to practically use their whole body to accomplish cocking a crossbow, even a small hand crossbow cannot be cocked without grabbing the string.

You need two hands to reload the weapon even if it "happens automatically" because it does not say you do NOT need it.

This is exactly like assuming that reducing the Action Cost of a Spell eliminates some of the casting Components as well, it does not. I do agree that this could use clarification though because otherwise there WILL be contingents of players expecting the weapon to cock itself which even modern technology cannot safely do without high-powered electrical motors and sensors that would render the weapon too unwieldy to use in the first place.

SIMULATED FAQ BUTTON


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Themetricsystem wrote:

Yes, you're right it "reloads itself" in that it drops a new bolt into place after you cock the weapon again, this is something that requires no Actions but is ABSOLUTELY requires you to use both hands.

That is unless you're talking about how Repeating weapons are either innately magical or are somehow perfectly crafted perpetual motion machines that can draw a 150 lb weight by applying one-half pound of force to the trigger. Really... I often wonder how many people here have actually used or seen a real crossbow in action much less a repeating one, it's not like a revolver, you still need to exert JUST as much physical force to pull the string back despite the bolt falling into place on its own. Even real competition athletes have to practically use their whole body to accomplish cocking a crossbow, even a small hand crossbow cannot be cocked without grabbing the string.

You need two hands to reload the weapon even if it "happens automatically" because it does not say you do NOT need it.

This is exactly like assuming that reducing the Action Cost of a Spell eliminates some of the casting Components as well, it does not.

You are not reading the description of the repeating hand crossbow. It reloads itself after firing, not cocking. Maybe future reloading weapons will require 1+ hands. The repeating hand crossbow does not.

Dataphiles

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GM OfAnything wrote:
Exocist wrote:

1) Shootist's Bandolier

Why does this item exist? It's in the same book as the repeating crossbow. It would be one thing if it was introduced later to fix issues with the weapon (though i'd still be grumpy about doing that instead of just reprinting the weapon) but in the same book? Why not just have the repeating crossbow take 2 actions to swap the magazine by base and remove this item? As far as I can tell there's no penalty to having it aside from the trivial 1gp cost.

The bandolier only holds three magazines and only applies to a specific weapon. The repeating trait applies to multiple weapons.

Ignoring the three magazine restriction because 20 bolts is far in excess of what you're going to fire in any combat, so I can't imagine it's a balancing concern at all, there are far more elegant and efficient ways of doing this than printing an extra item which people may not see if trying to use the weapon, but is an expected part of the weapon's balance.

Such as putting it inherent to the weapon "Unlike a regular repeating weapon, a repeating hand crossbow only needs 2 interact actions to swap the magazine" or just having the trait be Repeating X where X is the number of actions it needs to swap the magazine.

Now when you have a new item that needs more or less actions to swap the magazine, you can just have it be Repeating 2 or Repeating 4 rather than needing to print yet another item which changes the number of actions it takes - and it's much better for people who don't dig through all the items to find the one item which makes their reloading better. Win-win.

GM OfAnything wrote:
Quote:

2) Reloading

This weapon is incredibly unclear on if you need a free hand or not to "reload" it between each shot. As far as I can tell, by RAW, every reload weapon - including reload 0 ones - need a free hand to reload.

If it doesn't take an Interact action to reload, it doesn't need a hand. Some repeating weapons might still need an Interact action to reload, in which case they would need to be cocked using a free hand.

If you understand that the repeating trait is intended to be reused, the rules make sense.

... but the trait itself says that cocking it to autoload reduces the reload actions typically to zero, so you still need to cock it to reload even with reload 0, it doesn't cock itself


Unicore wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:

Yes, you're right it "reloads itself" in that it drops a new bolt into place after you cock the weapon again, this is something that requires no Actions but is ABSOLUTELY requires you to use both hands.

That is unless you're talking about how Repeating weapons are either innately magical or are somehow perfectly crafted perpetual motion machines that can draw a 150 lb weight by applying one-half pound of force to the trigger. Really... I often wonder how many people here have actually used or seen a real crossbow in action much less a repeating one, it's not like a revolver, you still need to exert JUST as much physical force to pull the string back despite the bolt falling into place on its own. Even real competition athletes have to practically use their whole body to accomplish cocking a crossbow, even a small hand crossbow cannot be cocked without grabbing the string.

You need two hands to reload the weapon even if it "happens automatically" because it does not say you do NOT need it.

This is exactly like assuming that reducing the Action Cost of a Spell eliminates some of the casting Components as well, it does not.

You are not reading the description of the repeating hand crossbow. It reloads itself after firing, not cocking. Maybe future reloading weapons will require 1+ hands. The repeating hand crossbow does not.

Yep, the hand crossbow specifically states "automatically loads a bolt from a magazine and resets the string each time the weapon is fired": so in it's case, it's cocking itself.


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From a gameplay and balance perspective, requiring two hands every time the magazine readies another bolt would make the weapon just strictly inferior to the shortbow despite being an advanced weapon.

Granted, that's not a rules argument and it's always possible Paizo intentionally or accidentally made the weapon that way, but when looking at something people are confused over, I think that's worth looking at... and the two-hand interpretation of the repeating hand crossbow is just plain terrible.

Shadow Lodge

Repeating Hand Crossbow

Repeating Hand Crossbow wrote:

This Weapon is from the Abomination Vaults Adventure Path and may contain Spoilers

Source Pathfinder #165: Eyes of Empty Death pg. 73
Price 10 gp; Damage 1d6 P; Bulk L
Hands 1; Range 60 ft.; Reload 0
Category Advanced
Group Bow; Traits Repeating, Uncommon
This weapon features an ingeniously designed catch mechanism at the top of the flight grove, just in front of the latch, which automatically loads a bolt from a magazine and resets the string each time the weapon is fired. A typical repeating hand crossbow magazine holds five bolts.

Traits
Repeating: A repeating weapon is typically a type of crossbow that has a shorter reload time. These weapons can't be loaded with individual bolts like other crossbows; instead, they require a magazine of specialized ammunition to be loaded into a special slot. Once that magazine is in place, the ammunition is automatically loaded each time the weapon is cocked to fire, reducing its reload to the value in its reload entry (typically 0). When the ammunition runs out, a new magazine must be loaded, which requires a free hand and 3 Interact actions (to remove the old magazine, retrieve the new magazine, and slot the new magazine in place). These actions don't need to be consecutive.

Uncommon: Something of uncommon rarity requires special training or comes from a particular culture or part of the world. Some character choices give access to uncommon options, and the GM can choose to allow access for anyone. Less is known about uncommon creatures than common creatures. They typically can’t be summoned. The DC of Recall Knowledge checks related to these creature is increased by 2.

RAW, this is a fantasy weapon that somehow 're-cocks' itself after each shot, essentially ignoring the laws of physics: Hand crossbows are basically complete fantasy anyway (with a bow that small, you'd have no leverage when re-cocking it and each shot would be really weak) but this is complete nonsense as a non-magical item...

Liberty's Edge

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Shuriken are hands 1, reload 0 just like the repeating hand crossbow. Do they need 2 hands too?


Taja the Barbarian wrote:
RAW, this is a fantasy weapon that somehow 're-cocks' itself after each shot, essentially ignoring the laws of physics

*shrug* the magazines could have some kind on pre-wound spring/gear/ect in it that take care of the physics in addition to the 5 bolts is someone is bothered by how it works.


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Squiggit wrote:

From a gameplay and balance perspective, requiring two hands every time the magazine readies another bolt would make the weapon just strictly inferior to the shortbow despite being an advanced weapon.

Granted, that's not a rules argument and it's always possible Paizo intentionally or accidentally made the weapon that way, but when looking at something people are confused over, I think that's worth looking at... and the two-hand interpretation of the repeating hand crossbow is just plain terrible.

I know it's been discussed before, but figured I would mention it again since this is a specifically repeating crossbow thread ... I still don't get why it's advanced rather than martial.


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Perpdepog wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

From a gameplay and balance perspective, requiring two hands every time the magazine readies another bolt would make the weapon just strictly inferior to the shortbow despite being an advanced weapon.

Granted, that's not a rules argument and it's always possible Paizo intentionally or accidentally made the weapon that way, but when looking at something people are confused over, I think that's worth looking at... and the two-hand interpretation of the repeating hand crossbow is just plain terrible.

I know it's been discussed before, but figured I would mention it again since this is a specifically repeating crossbow thread ... I still don't get why it's advanced rather than martial.

Maybe because of its complex repeating mechanism that lets it reload itself after firing?


Perpdepog wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

From a gameplay and balance perspective, requiring two hands every time the magazine readies another bolt would make the weapon just strictly inferior to the shortbow despite being an advanced weapon.

Granted, that's not a rules argument and it's always possible Paizo intentionally or accidentally made the weapon that way, but when looking at something people are confused over, I think that's worth looking at... and the two-hand interpretation of the repeating hand crossbow is just plain terrible.

I know it's been discussed before, but figured I would mention it again since this is a specifically repeating crossbow thread ... I still don't get why it's advanced rather than martial.

You have to figure out which direction the pointy things go... It's very tough to work out. :P

Seriously though, it's actually easier than a normal hand crossbow as you don't even have to figure out how to juggle the bolts, pull back the string, ect: all you need to do in put in a preloaded mag, aim and pull the trigger. The internal complexities it might have is irrelevant to how easy it is to use. A computers internal complexity isn't a barrier to surfing on the internet.


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Unless the thing is incredibly unwieldy because of all those moving parts and thus it is just really difficult to use accurately without extra training.


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Advanced is more about weapon quality in 2e than anything else though. Martial weapons are supposed to be one degree better than simple weapons and advanced weapons are another degree up from that.

So the repeating hand crossbow is advanced because ostensibly its combination of traits make it too strong to be a martial or simple weapon.


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Repeating crossbows irl are actually pretty easy to use, idk why people thing they are crazy high tech impossible weapons.

In game... the repeating hand crossbow is just a worse shortbow, why the heck is it advanced?


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Squiggit wrote:
So the repeating hand crossbow is advanced because ostensibly its combination of traits make it too strong to be a martial or simple weapon.

It's trading 5 reload 0 attacks for a 3 action reload after that... Well, that's equals out IMO. So is the one handed auto-reload feature worth a 2 category bump from simple to advanced? Not IMO.

Unicore wrote:
Unless the thing is incredibly unwieldy because of all those moving parts and thus it is just really difficult to use accurately without extra training.

An alchemical crossbow that infused bolts with bomb energy sounds a LOT more complicated and that's still simple. :P


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because it is a one handed weapon with a lot of range and the ability to be fired multiple times without reloading. We haven't gotten a lot of classes that will exploit those features yet, but the gunslinger in particular is looking at this as the best pistol option they have right now.


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Unicore wrote:
because it is a one handed weapon with a lot of range and the ability to be fired multiple times without reloading.

*Looks at shortbow with same range, same damage, the same reload but without limit, and deadly 1d10 and hands 1+* I'm NOT seeing the HUGE benefit that makes it harder to use than the shortbow.

Unicore wrote:
We haven't gotten a lot of classes that will exploit those features yet, but the gunslinger in particular is looking at this as the best pistol option they have right now.

Hard to debate future interactions. If it turns out that the best pistol option in the game is this crossbow, I'm going to be disappointed in the gun rules.


Unicore wrote:

because it is a one handed weapon with a lot of range and the ability to be fired multiple times without reloading. We haven't gotten a lot of classes that will exploit those features yet, but the gunslinger in particular is looking at this as the best pistol option they have right now.

Functionally, it's a shortbow; same damage and range, trading deadly d10 in exchange for going from 1+ handed to 1 handed.

From a power standpoint it's certainly not simple, but I don't see how its better than a martial weapon, unless there's some janky interaction with as yet unrevealed gunslinger abilities


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Well the reason why a 5 shot repeating 1 handed weapon would be awesome for a gunslinger, for example, is the ability to shoot it multiple times in a round and still have a loaded weapon for using with your redirecting shot or deflecting shot reaction, which you can now do at 60ft.

Redirecting shot is nasty when you use it on your alchemist buddies top level bombs. I think part of not making it martial might rest on not wanting every gun slinger to be as accurate with a repeating weapon as a non-repeating weapon without spending feats on it.

Also in the book it was printed, we get a two weapon archetype that is pretty dependent on being able to have 2 ranged weapons equipped at the same time. That is only possible with a true 1 handed ranged weapon, and I agree that we hope to see more like it in the future, but probably not repeating, with the range of this one.

Paizo Employee

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Alchemic_Genius wrote:
Unicore wrote:

because it is a one handed weapon with a lot of range and the ability to be fired multiple times without reloading. We haven't gotten a lot of classes that will exploit those features yet, but the gunslinger in particular is looking at this as the best pistol option they have right now.

Functionally, it's a shortbow; same damage and range, trading deadly d10 in exchange for going from 1+ handed to 1 handed.

This is an assessment that gets thrown around a lot in these kinds of comparisons while really missing out on the value of a hand. A shortbow takes two hands to fire, so you can't dual-wield a pair of them, wield it alongside a melee weapon, or wield it with a shield (or dual-wield it and use a shield by applying a shield boss). The game state of having a true free hand is better than the game state of having an occasionally free hand with a 1+ weapon. What you really have is-

Shortbow pros
*Better crit profile
*Propulsive option for compound variant

Shortbow cons
*Cannot be dual-wielded
*Cannot be wielded with a shield

***

Repeating hand crossbow pros
*Can be used while keeping a free hand open
*Can be used with a shield
*Can be dual-wielded

Repeating hand crossbow cons
*Weaker crit profile
*Requires feat expenditures for on-track proficiency scaling and propulsive equivalents
*Potential action economy imposition for long-running fights

***

So a character with the repeating hand crossbow has the potential for more damage types, higher AC, more potential options for reactions, better adaptability against mobile or aggressive foes, and various permutations of the former, like being able to shoot and activate a wand without spending actions to draw and stow.


Unicore wrote:
Well the reason why a 5 shot repeating 1 handed weapon would be awesome for a gunslinger, for example, is the ability to shoot it multiple times in a round and still have a loaded weapon for using with your redirecting shot or deflecting shot reaction, which you can now do at 60ft.

That's great for the playtest gunslinger I guess... However, it's also using up your limited shots on that reaction and taking you closer to needing a reload 3. I think you're underestimating the reload 3 after the 5 shots. Plus that reload is going to need 2 hands.

Unicore wrote:
Redirecting shot is nasty when you use it on your alchemist buddies top level bombs.

Is it awesome enough to take a whole round out afterward to replace a clip? The reaction is 1/5th your clip

Unicore wrote:
Also in the book it was printed, we get a two weapon archetype that is pretty dependent on being able to have 2 ranged weapons equipped at the same time.

Huh? The only archetype in the AP is Drow Shootist and it doesn't need 2 weapons.


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Ssalarn wrote:
Alchemic_Genius wrote:
Unicore wrote:

because it is a one handed weapon with a lot of range and the ability to be fired multiple times without reloading. We haven't gotten a lot of classes that will exploit those features yet, but the gunslinger in particular is looking at this as the best pistol option they have right now.

Functionally, it's a shortbow; same damage and range, trading deadly d10 in exchange for going from 1+ handed to 1 handed.

This is an assessment that gets thrown around a lot in these kinds of comparisons while really missing out on the value of a hand. A shortbow takes two hands to fire, so you can't dual-wield a pair of them, wield it alongside a melee weapon, or wield it with a shield (or dual-wield it and use a shield by applying a shield boss). The game state of having a true free hand is better than the game state of having an occasionally free hand with a 1+ weapon. What you really have is-

Shortbow pros
*Better crit profile
*Propulsive option for compound variant

Shortbow cons
*Cannot be dual-wielded
*Cannot be wielded with a shield

***

Repeating hand crossbow pros
*Can be used while keeping a free hand open
*Can be used with a shield
*Can be dual-wielded

Repeating hand crossbow cons
*Weaker crit profile
*Requires feat expenditures for on-track proficiency scaling and propulsive equivalents
*Potential action economy imposition for long-running fights

***

So a character with the repeating hand crossbow has the potential for more damage types, higher AC, more potential options for reactions, better adaptability against mobile or aggressive foes, and various permutations of the former, like being able to shoot and activate a wand without spending actions to draw and stow.

I wasn't denying the advantages nor downplaying them. One of the reasons I either seek bow proficiencies or use a hand crossbow or sling over a regular one is that it allows me to start combat with a buff item in hand, or I can use bastion to use a shield with my range weapon, so I know full well the value of an open hand.

I can also say with having months of play using one handed martial weapons with a magazine at my table that their benefits haven't been so extreme that would require a proficiency gate. They perform about as well as bows, with the repeating weapons allowing more tactical options at the expense of reloading and lower damage


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The Drow Shootist dedication seems specifically designed for the brace-of-pistols playstyle that was hyped up in the playtest. Quick Draw except it's also Quick Stow is a great first feat for that.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ssalarn wrote:
So a character with the repeating hand crossbow has the potential for more damage types, higher AC, more potential options for reactions, better adaptability against mobile or aggressive foes, and various permutations of the former, like being able to shoot and activate a wand without spending actions to draw and stow.

While this is true, I still think the balance is potentially tipped a bit. 1h vs 2h is always a choice between a bit of damage for superior hand economy, but a shortbow is better than a 2h weapon and the repeater is already weaker in terms of output. In other words, imo the weapon feels like a sidegrade before you consider that proficiency is two feats for most characters and the magazine reload. Having one of those restrictions would make sense, but both together feels a bit heavy.

Additionally, I think the dual wield option is currently kind of a trap, because dual wielding requires even more feats (realistically you want proficiency and dual thrower, so three feats for a fighter or five for anyone else... god, five feats to get a combat style online is some serious PF1 crap), completely flipping the hand economy comparison around and then based on some quick math not actually ending up that much better off, if at all.

Unicore is right though in that it may end up problematic for gunslingers.

I mean, I guess it doesn't feel as egregious as the Daikyu at least, which still feels like an unfinished weapon rn.


Ssalarn wrote:

*Can be dual-wielded

*Potential action economy imposition for long-running fights

Don't forget to combine those 2: it's stowing, drawing and reloading both weapons which is at best 8 actions needed.

Arachnofiend wrote:
The Drow Shootist dedication seems specifically designed for the brace-of-pistols playstyle that was hyped up in the playtest. Quick Draw except it's also Quick Stow is a great first feat for that.

Still no way to deal with that style of play and runes though.


graystone wrote:
Still no way to deal with that style of play and runes though.

We know for a fact it's coming in G&G. Sucks for people who want to play the new archetype now, I guess.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

You can get dual wield reload down to six with the bandolier

First turn: Drop left (0), reload right(2), drop right(0), pick up left(1).

Second turn: reload left(2), pick up right(1).

Arachnofiend wrote:
The Drow Shootist dedication seems specifically designed for the brace-of-pistols playstyle that was hyped up in the playtest. Quick Draw except it's also Quick Stow is a great first feat for that.

Honestly the most exciting thing about that is that it seems to confirm you're intended to be able to stow loaded crossbows. Saw a lot of people on this forum insist that shouldn't be possible and say they'd require players to reload at the start of combat.


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It's also worth noting that this isn't a true 1h vs 2h debate. 1+ hands still lets you carry a wand, potion, or what have you to use turn 1, and it still lets you draw them mid combat, which is a lot more than what 2h allows, and covers most of the benefits outlined by ssalarn said in the crossbows "pro" section


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The Raven Black wrote:
Shuriken are hands 1, reload 0 just like the repeating hand crossbow. Do they need 2 hands too?

I didn't see a response to this so I think it is worth noting that once you throw the shuriken, you have a free hand to draw a new one.


Arachnofiend wrote:
We know for a fact it's coming in G&G.

Well we're getting something for it, but we don't know how it works, so we don't know if it'll be compatible with Drow Shootist or not which is why I made the comment: for instance, it could be a weapon rune or worn item that requires a pistol.

Squiggit wrote:
You can get dual wield reload down to six with the bandolier

Sure, but drop isn't always a viable option. I generally don't rely on drop for a tactic, so I really think about it.

Xethik wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Shuriken are hands 1, reload 0 just like the repeating hand crossbow. Do they need 2 hands too?
I didn't see a response to this so I think it is worth noting that once you throw the shuriken, you have a free hand to draw a new one.

But the returning rune puts it back in your hand! ;)

Dataphiles

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Arachnofiend wrote:
The Drow Shootist dedication seems specifically designed for the brace-of-pistols playstyle that was hyped up in the playtest. Quick Draw except it's also Quick Stow is a great first feat for that.

Except its not. Quick draw but also quick stow is limited to once per round - you can’t quick draw two things with it. And stowing is pretty worthless for the brace style - either you have ABP/doubling ring equivalent for ranged weapons and you can just carelessly drop the weapons because they cost nothing anyway, or you don’t and the weapons you’re quick drawing are terrible. You would never need to stow.

The only useful feat in that archetype is the 6th level one. Which is just playtest risky reload but no misfire.


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I really like the repeating hand crossbow as an option for a (functionally) 1-armed Investigator I made a few weeks ago. Shortbow wouldn't really let her do that unless she were to nock arrows with her teeth or something. I was/am prepared to finagle or bend the flavor a bit too justify reloading with one hand and otherwise dedicate to support duties, but sticking to 5 shots a combat is comfier.

That said, though I can kind of understand Paizo being cautious with repeating reload since it's a big action economy upgrade over the base, I do think having them be martial weapons with the uncommon or rare tag would've been fine, since it's good enough for guns. I certainly hope they're more accessible than a random archetype in Guns and Gears, but I don't have an issue with the repeating mechanic itself.

(By the way, it mentions needing a free hand to reload the magazine. So there's that, but you don't need a free hand to shoot the thing several times.)


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Alfa/Polaris wrote:
I really like the repeating hand crossbow as an option for a (functionally) 1-armed Investigator I made a few weeks ago.

Yep, I was thinking the weapon actually works well for the investigator as I generally make 1 attack/round with them so I could make it through a combat most times without a mag reload. A Human investigator with Unconventional Weaponry [repeating crossbow] would work since if grants access and it treats repeating crossbows as martial for proficiency. You wouldn't get access to shootist bandoliers though unless you take Drow Shootist which could prove trickier to get than the item for a lot of DMs. ;)

EDIT: I just got to take a look at the module and look at the new material. I saw the picture of the repeating crossbow and just have to say... What the heck is that? You couldn't use that as a crossbow, let only as a repeating one. There is no where to place/load the bolt, no place for the magazine, the bolts are about 1/4th the size they'd need to be... The holster is also... interesting.

Dataphiles

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
graystone wrote:
Alfa/Polaris wrote:
I really like the repeating hand crossbow as an option for a (functionally) 1-armed Investigator I made a few weeks ago.

Yep, I was thinking the weapon actually works well for the investigator as I generally make 1 attack/round with them so I could make it through a combat most times without a mag reload. A Human investigator with Unconventional Weaponry [repeating crossbow] would work since if grants access and it treats repeating crossbows as martial for proficiency. You wouldn't get access to shootist bandoliers though unless you take Drow Shootist which could prove trickier to get than the item for a lot of DMs. ;)

EDIT: I just got to take a look at the module and look at the new material. I saw the picture of the repeating crossbow and just have to say... What the heck is that? You couldn't use that as a crossbow, let only as a repeating one. There is no where to place/load the bolt, no place for the magazine, the bolts are about 1/4th the size they'd need to be... The holster is also... interesting.

The picture is completely dysfunctional and shouldn’t be used as an indicator of how the item functions.

There’s no way the bolt can load in, nor a place for it to rest. The “cocking” bit appears to be that bit sticking out near the handle which would need to be pushed down between each shot like the hammer on a gun.

And yeah, the bolts are small but that’s consistent with most rapid fire crossbows


Exocist wrote:
And yeah, the bolts are small but that’s consistent with most rapid fire crossbows

If there was a rail/flight groove, I could almost overlook the bolt size: even with one though, a bolt usually is long enough to reach from the latch to around the riser. The chukonu [chinese repeating crossbow] had slightly smaller bolts but the 'clip' size was longer [it extended past the latch].

I'm just going to pretend I didn't see it and imagine it as a modern repeating crossbow pistol. ;)

Liberty's Edge

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Xethik wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Shuriken are hands 1, reload 0 just like the repeating hand crossbow. Do they need 2 hands too?
I didn't see a response to this so I think it is worth noting that once you throw the shuriken, you have a free hand to draw a new one.

Indeed, but the Shuriken, as opposed to the Thrown weapons, is Reload 0, rather than Reload -. Which means you do not need to interact to get one in your hand before throwing it.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote:
Xethik wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Shuriken are hands 1, reload 0 just like the repeating hand crossbow. Do they need 2 hands too?
I didn't see a response to this so I think it is worth noting that once you throw the shuriken, you have a free hand to draw a new one.
Indeed, but the Shuriken, as opposed to the Thrown weapons, is Reload 0, rather than Reload -. Which means you do not need to interact to get one in your hand before throwing it.

Right, but my read is that this line applies regardless of the Reload value ('0', '-', or any other value:

Quote:


Reloading a ranged weapon and drawing a thrown weapon both require a free hand.

So you need a free hand to draw a new one, but you also have the free hand as soon as you have finished Striking with the first one.

We might be agreeing with each other and saying it differently, though.

Paizo Employee

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Alchemic_Genius wrote:
It's also worth noting that this isn't a true 1h vs 2h debate. 1+ hands still lets you carry a wand, potion, or what have you to use turn 1, and it still lets you draw them mid combat, which is a lot more than what 2h allows, and covers most of the benefits outlined by ssalarn said in the crossbows "pro" section

Factually incorrect. It covers a small portion of 1/3 of the pros in that list. Shortbow wielder still can't use a shield, can't use reactions with their weapon while they have something in that hand, etc. And if you're starting with a shortbow and wand in hand, once you've used the wand your choices are to drop your expensive loot or spend an action stowing it and give up one of your advantages (damage) by sacrificing action economy. You're also more limited in wands; anything other than a self-buff or single-target effect is going to be more hindrance than help unless the enemies have all conveniently formed up in the right AoE formation.

1+ is better than 2 for options but it's still not equivalent to 1. A character with a hand crossbow and a staff of evocation can fling lightning bolts and Strike with a crossbow bolt in a single turn; a shortbow wielder can't without dropping valuable loot on the ground and then needing to pick it up later, actions which suck up the shortbow's advantages. If a mobile martial enemy gets up in hand crossbow wielder's face, they have more options to deal with that enemy than a shortbow wielder does (higher AC, off-hand melee options, or even just activating an item you held onto throughout the fight just in case you needed it).

None of that is to address whether the repeating hand crossbow is undertuned or not, but just to note that the idea that any 1+ bow is basically the same as a 1-handed weapon isn't remotely correct. A more accurate comparison would be to compare it to a sling, standard hand crossbow, or shuriken and say "Compared to these much more equivalent weapons, does the repeating hand crossbow justify being an advanced weapon?"

It certainly beats out the hand crossbow and the sling on action economy alone, so it's at least a martial weapon. Shuriken require a 14 Strength to reach an equivalent damage profile to the hand crossbow, which is an easy pickup but not an automatic one and might be a harder ask for a character who wants to add spellcasting to the mix. Shuriken also have 1/3 of the range, more barriers to enchanting them efficiently, and get progressively less competitive as striking runes come into play and alter the damage profile in favor of the repeating hand crossbow.

So up until the point in time where you have to reload (which for many builds won't actually happen in the majority of combats), the repeating hand crossbow is better than the other actual 1-handed weapons in both the simple and martial categories, which is a reasonable argument for it falling where it has.


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Ssalarn wrote:
Factually incorrect. It covers a small portion of 1/3 of the pros in that list. Shortbow wielder still can't use a shield, can't use reactions with their weapon while they have something in that hand, etc.

Nimble Shield Hand solves this. They can interact so they can reload, can use reactions, ect.

Ssalarn wrote:
If a mobile martial enemy gets up in hand crossbow wielder's face, they have more options to deal with that enemy than a shortbow wielder does (higher AC, off-hand melee options, or even just activating an item you held onto throughout the fight just in case you needed it).

You can get the higher AC [Nimble Shield Hand], off-hand melee options [Nimble Shield Hand/shield bash/spike/boss] and activating an item is easier to do than having a normal weapon/item in the off hand. With feats required to use the repeater, it seems fair to compare it to a character using a 2 feats for a shield in comparison.

Liberty's Edge

Xethik wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Xethik wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Shuriken are hands 1, reload 0 just like the repeating hand crossbow. Do they need 2 hands too?
I didn't see a response to this so I think it is worth noting that once you throw the shuriken, you have a free hand to draw a new one.
Indeed, but the Shuriken, as opposed to the Thrown weapons, is Reload 0, rather than Reload -. Which means you do not need to interact to get one in your hand before throwing it.

Right, but my read is that this line applies regardless of the Reload value ('0', '-', or any other value:

Quote:


Reloading a ranged weapon and drawing a thrown weapon both require a free hand.

So you need a free hand to draw a new one, but you also have the free hand as soon as you have finished Striking with the first one.

We might be agreeing with each other and saying it differently, though.

Actually, Reload 0 means "This entry indicates how many Interact actions it takes to reload such weapons. This can be 0 if drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action."

Note that shuriken are not thrown weapons ;-)

But then, we have "Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon."

So, even if you need a free hand, switching your grip to free it and to place it again to wield the weapon takes 0 action.

RAW answers everything :-)

Liberty's Edge

graystone wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Factually incorrect. It covers a small portion of 1/3 of the pros in that list. Shortbow wielder still can't use a shield, can't use reactions with their weapon while they have something in that hand, etc.

Nimble Shield Hand solves this. They can interact so they can reload, can use reactions, ect.

Ssalarn wrote:
If a mobile martial enemy gets up in hand crossbow wielder's face, they have more options to deal with that enemy than a shortbow wielder does (higher AC, off-hand melee options, or even just activating an item you held onto throughout the fight just in case you needed it).
You can get the higher AC [Nimble Shield Hand], off-hand melee options [Nimble Shield Hand/shield bash/spike/boss] and activating an item is easier to do than having a normal weapon/item in the off hand. With feats required to use the repeater, it seems fair to compare it to a character using a 2 feats for a shield in comparison.

Not everyone takes Nimble Shield Hand. For all those who don't, the difference is very real.

Paizo Employee

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graystone wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Factually incorrect. It covers a small portion of 1/3 of the pros in that list. Shortbow wielder still can't use a shield, can't use reactions with their weapon while they have something in that hand, etc.

Nimble Shield Hand solves this. They can interact so they can reload, can use reactions, ect.

Ssalarn wrote:
If a mobile martial enemy gets up in hand crossbow wielder's face, they have more options to deal with that enemy than a shortbow wielder does (higher AC, off-hand melee options, or even just activating an item you held onto throughout the fight just in case you needed it).
You can get the higher AC [Nimble Shield Hand], off-hand melee options [Nimble Shield Hand/shield bash/spike/boss] and activating an item is easier to do than having a normal weapon/item in the off hand. With feats required to use the repeater, it seems fair to compare it to a character using a 2 feats for a shield in comparison.

It takes 0 feats to wield and Raise a shield.


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The Raven Black wrote:
Not everyone takes Nimble Shield Hand. For all those who don't, the difference is very real.

Not everyone takes the feats to get proficiency in the repeater either. It's not really a fair comparison is one character is spending feats in a comparison and the other isn't: the one that blew a few feats should be the better option.

Ssalarn wrote:
It takes 0 feats to wield and Raise a shield.

You said it was Factually incorrect that "Shortbow wielder still can't use a shield": that was Factually incorrect.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ssalarn wrote:
It takes 0 feats to wield and Raise a shield.

Yeah, but it takes more than 0 feats to properly wield a repeating hand crossbow.

Someone taking Repeating Hand Crossbow Training is spending the same number of feats as someone taking Nimble Shield Hand, so imo the comparison is valid.

Paizo Employee

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graystone wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Not everyone takes Nimble Shield Hand. For all those who don't, the difference is very real.

Not everyone takes the feats to get proficiency in the repeater either. It's not really a fair comparison is one character is spending feats in a comparison and the other isn't: the one that blew a few feats should be the better option.

Ssalarn wrote:
It takes 0 feats to wield and Raise a shield.
You said it was Factually incorrect that "Shortbow wielder still can't use a shield": that was Factually incorrect.

Once the argument in favor of shortbows is that they can do one of the things a repeating hand crossbow can do as long as they take three feats to do it, I think we've crossed the line into "functionally pointless arguments". It's like arguing that all crossbows deal 1dx+2 damage because the Crossbow Ace feat exists; that's a property of the feat, not the weapon. Shortbow wielders can't use a shield, characters who spend three feats on a shield-wielding archetype can use a shortbow (maybe). Trying to add build functionality as a weapon characteristic is a poor argument that doesn't establish anything.

If the shortbow wielder is getting credit for being able to wield a shield because they spent two class feats and a general feat, then let's just assume that every repeating crossbow wielder has Drow Shootist, Repeating Hand Crossbow Training, and Toughness. Now it's irrelevant that the repeating hand crossbow is an advanced weapon since it auto-scales to your best proficiency so we should evaluate it as a martial weapon, you can Strike and stow or draw and Strike as a single action (so you can have two hands free while climbing or go from Picking a Lock to shooting with no action economy loss and easily switch between primary and backup weapons), you have free critical specialization, and you have more Hit Points than the shortbow wielder.

The whole "But with XYZ I can do a thing I normally can't do" is a recursive argument that never establishes anything because you've gone from talking about the merits of the weapon to the merits of builds, and it's all but impossible to establish a clear winner between different builds.

Squiggit wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
It takes 0 feats to wield and Raise a shield.

Yeah, but it takes more than 0 feats to properly wield a repeating hand crossbow.

Someone taking Repeating Hand Crossbow Training is spending the same number of feats as someone taking Nimble Shield Hand, so imo the comparison is valid.

Then the evaluation of repeating hand crossbows should credit them with the benefits of three feats and include the fact that they have better action economy, free critical specialization, give their wielders more Hit Points, and aren't actually advanced because they autoscale to your best proficiency. If the goal posts are going to shift, they need to shift equally for both sides of the debate.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

DOes nimble shield hand work with a 1+ handed bow?

1+ weapons wrote:
. You can hold a weapon with a 1+ entry in one hand, but the process of shooting it requires using a second to retrieve, nock, and loose an arrow. This means you can do things with your free hand while holding the bow without changing your grip, but the other hand must be free when you shoot. To properly wield a 1+ weapon, you must hold it in one hand and also have a hand free.
Nimble Shield Hand wrote:
You are so used to wielding a shield that you can do so even while using the hand that's holding it for other purposes. The hand you use to wield a shield counts as a free hand for the purposes of the Interact action. You can also hold another object in this hand (but you still can't use it to wield a weapon). This benefit doesn't apply to tower shields, which are still too cumbersome.

That would seem to imply you are not just using the other hand for an interact action, but an actual attack action.

Nimble shield hand would let you use a hand cross bow and still reload, but I don't think it would allow you to use a regular sized shield and a bow.

The buckler is already useable out of the gate because of the specific item description, but that description is different than the text of nimble shield hand.

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